Vendors Vendors Vendors

[clmacdougall 11]

So MMS were you able to make any decisions concerning how you are going to handle the vendors in the future? Will there be an identification put on vendors in the future?

[Do Or Die 10]

My thoughts go well with Tradewinds and I'll try to suggest something in bullet points for clarity:

 

• This is not for sake of comparison, but other forums of similar size are not so liberal for vendors unless they are paying significantly (not just posting a banner ad)
  
• Vendors are essential part of any trading community and for obvious business reasons they deserve a fair chance
  
• There is a huge difference between a 'normal' member receiving criticism versus a vendor receiving criticism
  
• A vendor turns to degrade others because he NEEDS to prove himself right every time. A normal member may make rude comments but it will most likely be a knee jerk reaction unless that member is a troll.
  
• The more insecure and petty a vendor, the stronger his emotional reaction will be on being criticized, and more frequent are the personal attacks inflicted.
  
• Most forums have a warning system- say if a member gets 3 warnings within 12 months he gets banned.
  

 

How about an objective rule: make half the number of required warnings for vendors to get banned. In any case, they should be the last one to try attacking someone or indulge in purely promotional posts (scam).

 

It took me a long, long while to figure out, and sort out what the motives were behind each members posts. New members to TL may have no understanding of the motives behind a post.

 

I was a member for quite a while before I started reading or making posts. I started reading and making posts as a way to work through trading ideas, learn, and hopefully contribute. My motive in contributing, is that I usually learn something new. So there is a personal benefit to being involved. I've learned that by trying to answer questions, and give opinions, I learn something new.

 

As I started to understand why different people were making posts, and learned things about them, I gained some clarity about what is going on. I began to realize that many people making posts are simply in the self-promotion business, for whatever reason.

 

It's not that self-promotion is inherently bad, but knowing what is really going on adds some depth of understanding.

 

Ultimately the goal of TL is to attract traders, and get them to visit the site often. Advertisers and vendors want to see a lot of traffic. TL is not going to hold or attract more traffic from people getting disgusted and fed up with the crap that goes on here. It just seems like common sense for TL to bring a halt to contentious and insulting behavior. I don't care if someone wants to sell me something. I might even want and like what they are selling. The self-promotion and selling isn't the problem.

 

It's not vendors, or self-promoting people who are the problem, it's anyone who just doesn't understand simple respect. Although, if TL wants to increase the respect level, then there needs to be some transparency about what is really going on. It may be surprising to many what the background and motives are of many of the members who make a lot of posts.

 

I've noticed that some members with a lot of posts, seem to have not made posts for years. Sooner or later, probably everyone moves on and stops visiting the site for one reason or another. TL should consider who is coming back to the site and why. You don't want an imbalance of contentious and/or self promoting people to the people who are sincerely looking for beneficial interactions.

[MadMarketScientist 11]

Ultimately the goal of TL is to attract traders, and get them to visit the site often. Advertisers and vendors want to see a lot of traffic. TL is not going to hold or attract more traffic from people getting disgusted and fed up with the crap that goes on here. It just seems like common sense for TL to bring a halt to contentious and insulting behavior.

 

I think the moderators have been doing a pretty good job of keeping this stuff to a minimum. But we also rely on the the community to self-police, ignoring offending posts and reporting them is the best way to deal with it. Replying with a similarly offending comment just escalates the situation but I know its hard not to do. Can we improve in the moderation?

 

thanks,

MMS

[MightyMouse 12]

I think the moderators have been doing a pretty good job of keeping this stuff to a minimum. But we also rely on the the community to self-police, ignoring offending posts and reporting them is the best way to deal with it. Replying with a similarly offending comment just escalates the situation but I know its hard not to do. Can we improve in the moderation?

 

thanks,

MMS

 

Let the cards fall as they may.

 

Let nature takes its course.

[clmacdougall 11]

I think the moderators have been doing a pretty good job of keeping this stuff to a minimum. But we also rely on the the community to self-police, ignoring offending posts and reporting them is the best way to deal with it. Replying with a similarly offending comment just escalates the situation but I know its hard not to do. Can we improve in the moderation?

 

thanks,

MMS

 

The community is self-policing right now! Please change your policy concerning vendors, color their posts and i.d. them as being a vendor to seperate them for their selfish intentions.

If not you will end up with vendor turf wars like what began to happen in the thread you had to step in on. 3 vendors battling for the communities money and a sense of ego over their peers. Step in, I'm sure your tech guy could easily handle it!!

[clmacdougall 11]

A vendor spreads a subtle type of misinformation and miseducation. It always points back to your need for them as the final piece of the puzzle. The trouble is the jigsaw puzzle once put together is a picture of them taking your money.

Perform due diligence MMS you don't ever want to be part of a lawsuit from a ripped off member of this site who is desperately trying to get their money back after they've been taken to the cleaners from a known vendor who worked the TL community in order to fleece the sheep.

[joshdance 10]

Hows about a quick list of other non paying vendors on this site!! I've mentioned Steve46, Electroniclocal & Urma Blume. I did none of it with malice or personal disregard. It's just a fact! Are there others?? Who are they?

 

Another non-paying vendor is Logic.

[joshdance 10]

And here's a crazy thought - maybe those labeled as vendors could actually show they trade and do this for a living.

 

This would of course be impossible, as they don't trade for a living.

 

I wrote a little NT indicator that uses twitter mail to have a tweet go out to the world less than 5 seconds from the order gets filled. I am a washed up ex-programmer and even I could do it. For a commercial vendor it should be a snap on any platform to write something similar. (1) They don't have to give away ANY reasons for why they entered the trade, so no intellectual property issues. (2) They don't have to recommend the trade, in fact, they could even say "would not long XYZ here"; so no NFA or legal ramifications. Since the software alerts WHEN the trade happens and the trader has to take no action, (3) the excuse that the trade is momentum based and not "planned" can't be used.

 

A video provides no proof. Showing account numbers, which are easily faked, provides no proof. Showing an account statement provides NO proof (this is easy--just have two accounts and take opposing positions all the time, hedging and guaranteeing they will offset, then show only the winning one).

 

The ONLY way for a vendor to provide any evidence that what they do is genuine is to call the trade entry, stop, exit, and management of the trade LIVE. When it happens. Period.

 

Yet, they will not do it.

 

It's like a pitcher in baseball claiming he can throw strikes with 90% accuracy, and asking a fee to show you how to do it. Yet, he won't show you that he can. He only tells you that he does it, and does it every day. He refers you to a video of a pitcher doing this, with his back to the camera so you can't see his face. But he just won't do it live, in person. He says you might catch his technique by watching, or that he has nothing to prove, or that MLB won't let him demo without their permission, and so on. Would you pay this person?

 

IF a vendor could actually consistently do what they say they do, they would only benefit by proving it. Yet, the fear of being wrong and being exposed as traders who can't make a living trading, despite the fact that they are teaching others how to do this, will prevent them.

[clmacdougall 11]

Two others pop into mind

Norman Hallett

Rande Howell

 

My own opinion on Norman and co. is that they are 'great folks'. Consistent message across time, etc - providing rules, tips, suggestions (literally ). I'm not up on what's he's selling now, but long ago I bought one of his hypnosis CD's. And btw, his wife has a great voice for this! Well done, simply, elegant, reasonably priced product. Fortunately, the scripts were 'open' / disclosed, so I was able to discern the subtle discrepancies from the way I needed to go from the 'stock' trading advice imbedded in the product and was able to return it for a refund. Bottom line - his services are not for everyone ( at least as much as the promotions would suggest), but there is a pretty good percentage of 'efforting' traders who would benefit from at least a trial of his services...

 

Rande Howell... ditto as far as character and integrity go... Rande's services work at much more 'depth' than most 'trading psychologists' (and please correct me if that's not the correct label). With him your not getting 'what to do', you're getting how to get into awareness of your own patterns and dynamics. You know - the ones that are often running just below consciousness. A large percentage of developing traders don't even acknowledge such 'nonsense' - so once again almost ditto. His services are not for everyone but there is a pretty good percentage of developing traders who would benefit from 'investing' the time, energy and expense in this direction... For even further improvement, I would suggest to Rande that he take up real, fast time frame trading for about an hour a day (during non billable hours, of course ) for about three months... result, imo, would be a big updraft of rapport with clients and potential clients.

 

re Vendors Vendors Vendors In TL:

I don’t care if a vendor can ‘prove’ he’s super profitable or not.

I don’t care whether he has to label himself herein as a vendor or not.

I don’t care whether we hold them to a higher or different standard or not

I don’t care if other members slam the hell out of them or not. If they can’t take the heat..

I DO care if they reply to questions – especially the serious, difficult ones.

I could go into how each of the 5 vendors McD and I have listed evades, ignores, avoids questions. I would even accept answers like “that is proprietary info”, or “that would be billable work” but arrogantly ignoring sincere questions is a very fast way to kill good will and referrals from me…

 

zdo, thank you! What are their id names here at TL?

[clmacdougall 11]

Another non-paying vendor is Logic.

 

Josh, can you tell me what he offers and for how much? It can help for now anyway. Thanks

[Deusomega 10]

Josh, can you tell me what he offers and for how much? It can help for now anyway. Thanks

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/market-analysis/153-technical-analysis-voodoo-does-work-21.html#post118648

 

He lists his email. Remove his name and the @ and use the domain as a url. He put a space in between the o and m in .com because hes super clever so fix that before entering. He has a manual for $750 lol.

[clmacdougall 11]

OK here goes! It's a start I guess.

 

Our vendor list with names product and price:

 

Electroniclocal / 3 day seminar / $5000

Steve46 / daily coaching / $200 per month

Urma Blume / tradestation inducator package addon / $1400 per year

Logic / manual / $750

[Deusomega 10]

OK here goes! It's a start I guess.

 

Our vendor list with names product and price:

 

Electroniclocal / 3 day seminar / $5000

Steve46 / daily coaching / $200 per month

Urma Blume / tradestation inducator package addon / $1400 per year

Logic / manual / $750

 

wow $5000 for a 3 day seminar.. must be an ex market wizard. Those other guys seem like a bargain compared to his overinflated price.

[Tams 20]

This would of course be impossible, as they don't trade for a living.

 

I wrote a little NT indicator that uses twitter mail to have a tweet go out to the world less than 5 seconds from the order gets filled. I am a washed up ex-programmer and even I could do it. For a commercial vendor it should be a snap on any platform to write something similar. (1) They don't have to give away ANY reasons for why they entered the trade, so no intellectual property issues. (2) They don't have to recommend the trade, in fact, they could even say "would not long XYZ here"; so no NFA or legal ramifications. Since the software alerts WHEN the trade happens and the trader has to take no action, (3) the excuse that the trade is momentum based and not "planned" can't be used.

 

A video provides no proof. Showing account numbers, which are easily faked, provides no proof. Showing an account statement provides NO proof (this is easy--just have two accounts and take opposing positions all the time, hedging and guaranteeing they will offset, then show only the winning one).

 

The ONLY way for a vendor to provide any evidence that what they do is genuine is to call the trade entry, stop, exit, and management of the trade LIVE. When it happens. Period.

 

Yet, they will not do it.

 

It's like a pitcher in baseball claiming he can throw strikes with 90% accuracy, and asking a fee to show you how to do it. Yet, he won't show you that he can. He only tells you that he does it, and does it every day. He refers you to a video of a pitcher doing this, with his back to the camera so you can't see his face. But he just won't do it live, in person. He says you might catch his technique by watching, or that he has nothing to prove, or that MLB won't let him demo without their permission, and so on. Would you pay this person?

 

IF a vendor could actually consistently do what they say they do, they would only benefit by proving it. Yet, the fear of being wrong and being exposed as traders who can't make a living trading, despite the fact that they are teaching others how to do this, will prevent them.

 

are you a vendor as well?

[joshdance 10]

are you a vendor as well?

 

No, if you are asking because I wrote the indicator that posted trades to twitter, it was more for fun to see if it could be done easily, and it did work quite well.

Edited August 24, 2011 by joshdance

[clmacdougall 11]

Our vendor list with names product and price:

 

Electroniclocal / 3 day seminar / $5000

Steve46 / daily coaching / $200 per month

Urma Blume / tradestation inducator package addon / $1400 per year

Logic / manual / $750

nhallett / 5 hour course / $297

[clmacdougall 11]

Our vendor list with names product and price:

 

Electroniclocal / 3 day seminar / $5000

Steve46 / daily coaching / $200 per month

Urma Blume / tradestation inducator package addon / $1400 per year

Logic / manual / $750

nhallett / 5 hour course / $297

Rande Howell / multi media courses + 10 personal sessions / $ 2997

[clmacdougall 11]

Any other non paying TL vendors out there who are trying to lead you to their website, blog, manual, indicators or whatever in return for your money?

[zdo 20]

zdo, thank you! What are their id names here at TL?

 

nhallett

Rande Howell

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

Deusomega mentioned that Logic "... has a manual for $750 lol. " Yet to a (very small) niche, that manual may be worth many multiples of $750. We have to be careful of single factor thinking that just leads to generalized slamming of all the vendors. In the right hands and for someone with those same proclivities in approach, the same can be true of high pricing by other vendors... Like UB's indicators for example. I know I personally worked long and hard developing similar code and measures. ( I use this way only in certain conditions, not day in day out swing in swing out or whatever... hm) ... and then, there was more long and hard work learning how to use them

 

Truly putting in that long and hard work to learn someone else's way has over the years come to be just plain ole inconceivable to me. All vendors are promoting a tiny niche - whether they acknowledge it or whether they act as if their method is dispensed from god the father for every trader ever born and yet to be born. The match between vendor's methods and the 'client's' true nature is the determinant of whether a vendor's tutalage is going to be successful or not...

It's not - as the vendors would claim, that the 'client' quit or wasn't 'disciplined' or whatever

nor, as the 'clients' would claim, that the course was "crap".

The true failure rate of these 'relationships' makes even any exorbitant pricing and wasted / lost money seem inconsequential. This is even further compounded by the large percentage of vendors who are (mostly unconsciously) teaching to help themselves learn. Most trading coaches are all done with coaching once they learn how to trade, etc.

 

... some opinions for noobs and strugglers...

It is preferable that a potential client already be VERY VERY DEEP into the very similar methodology or approach before interviewing a potential vendor

It is even more preferable to "Find your own way!" zdo

[clmacdougall 11]

Zdo, no one is implying guilt or even that what they offer isn't worth the money. The only reason that vendor identification is necessary is that their potential intent and possible education/miseducation can be with a selfish motive in mind and not necessarily to help others. Give me a good reason why a seller should not be identified as such on the forums.

[Tams 20]

Any other non paying TL vendors out there who are trying to lead you to their website, blog, manual, indicators or whatever in return for your money?

 

dbphoneix used to paddle an ebook here.

don't know if he was offering other services.

[joshdance 10]

dbphoneix used to paddle an ebook here.

 

Did the ebook misbehave to warrant such a punishment?

[clmacdougall 11]

Thanks Tams

 

Our vendor list with names product and price:

 

Electroniclocal / 3 day seminar / $5000

Steve46 / daily coaching / $200 per month

Urma Blume / tradestation inducator package addon / $1400 per year

Logic / manual / $750

nhallett / 5 hour course / $297

Rande Howell / multi media courses + 10 personal sessions / $ 2997

Dbphoenix / ebook / $30

[zdo 20]

... 3 members and 3 guests... that's a strangely high guest count

 

 

 

I cannot give you a good reason why a seller should not be identified as such on the forums.

 

But I don't care (and I'm not being smart ass ) ... If they put all vendors' content in bold red it would not save a single hapless sucker one dam dime. Those who are looking 'outward' will continue to look outward until they don't look outward any more...then...

 

The earthquake wasn't my fault...:spam:

[clmacdougall 11]

Did the ebook misbehave to warrant such a punishment?

 

Thers's no punishment Josh, just the awareness of a seller whose intentions for posting might or might not be dramatically different from those of a regular member of the community.