Vendors Vendors Vendors

[Tams 20]

This is one point where we can agree.....to bad you did not do some homework before you spoke about me previously...

 

The threads I have authored here include "An institutional look at the S&P Futures" and "Ideas for Struggling Traders"...also "Trading Adverse Events".....in those threads I have quite a lot of "intellectual property including the concept of "time based pivots" which have not been published before....If you look at the page views, you cannot help but conclude that members are making good use of the material. Finally within the threads themselves, members have posted their "thank yous" periodically..

 

It will be interesting to see if you possess the character to apologize.

 

Steve

 

Steve:

 

I have known about you since the ET days.

You had started some great threads,

taught new traders to look at the market from different light.

contributed tons of idea to total strangers,

and shared esoteric concepts, methods, without asking even a thanks.

 

if it weren't because of your recent frequent mention (solicitation?) of your "course",

you are a good man.

[steve46 12]

Steve:

 

I have known about you since the ET days.

You had started some great threads,

taught new traders to look at the market from different light.

contributed tons of idea to total strangers,

and shared esoteric concepts, methods, without asking even a thanks.

 

if it weren't because of your recent frequent mention of your "course",

you are a good man.

 

Tams

 

Thats the nicest thing anyone has said to me....So that you know, I do have a course...and I have 4 students....they are going to study with me for about 18 months and at that time, I am asking them to stop....and prove to themselves that they can do this on their own...I have told them that when the class ends I won't be doing it again...I leave it to your judgement whether that is a scam....

 

Thanks again for the kind comments.

Steve

[clmacdougall 11]

This is one point where we can agree.....to bad you did not do some homework before you spoke about me previously...

 

The threads I have authored here include "An institutional look at the S&P Futures" and "Ideas for Struggling Traders"...also "Trading Adverse Events".....in those threads I have quite a lot of "intellectual property including the concept of "time based pivots" which have not been published before....If you look at the page views, you cannot help but conclude that members are making good use of the material. Finally within the threads themselves, members have posted their "thank yous" periodically..

 

It will be interesting to see if you possess the character to apologize.

 

Steve

 

Steve, please look at the post just before that one. It will be obvious that I was speaking of electroniclocal. As to the need for transparency on the site I would think any member who wants the best for the TL community would appreciate that other members with self interests who are sellers/vendors should be identified as such for everyones good.

Why would you resist that? When a non seller/ regular member of TL posts, it is in the search for truth/help that he does so. When a vendor posts it must always be noted that he may not be trying to help but to sell and to trap other members with a constant sales pitch.

[TradeRunner 10]

Steve:

 

I have known about you since the ET days.

You had started some great threads,

taught new traders to look at the market from different light.

contributed tons of idea to total strangers,

and shared esoteric concepts, methods, without asking even a thanks.

 

if it weren't because of your recent frequent mention (solicitation?) of your "course",

you are a good man.

 

I agree with Tams, Steve has made interesting contributions on here and ET. I just ignore the pro/retail attitude and course mentions (a very recent development after years of posting).

[MadMarketScientist 11]

Hi Guys,

 

Let's try to stay on topic here, this is not a thread to bring up past grudges in public. Thanks everyone for cooperating.

 

Just to make a point about transparency, the only people paying TL are the advertisers that run display banners. There are no 'stealth' vendors paying TL.

 

So to summarize some ideas from everyone - there are really two camps I see:

1. label 'vendors' so everyone knows who is what

 

2. let the members and community decide for themselves what to believe and what to ignore (without resorting to attacks)

 

Any other comments?

 

thx

MMS

[clmacdougall 11]

Hi Guys,

 

Let's try to stay on topic here, this is not a thread to bring up past grudges in public. Thanks everyone for cooperating.

 

Just to make a point about transparency, the only people paying TL are the advertisers that run display banners. There are no 'stealth' vendors paying TL.

 

So to summarize some ideas from everyone - there are really two camps I see:

1. label 'vendors' so everyone know

 

2. let the members and community decide for themselves what to believe and what to ignore (without resorting to attacks)

 

Any other comments?

 

thx

MMS

 

Thanks MMS, just a final note. Those who don't want to be labeled are the vendors! So it goes without saying that they don't want to appear as such.

[mslk 10]

Why not have the richest possible content and let members decide for themselves. As of now I can't play online poker because some "others" have decided for me.

 

i have to agree with urma here. as a newbie member on TL and the other forums, the content here is much more rich. and yes sometimes i wonder a bit about the posters motive, but at the end of the day i'm an adult and i don't need someone to 'save me from the vendors'. i've seen obvious vendor marketing (that add no value) removed very quickly which is great. threads such as urma's actually contribute to TL and so what if he has a business that is related? he is contributing to the content and that is what is important.

 

-mslk

[clmacdougall 11]

i have to agree with urma here. as a newbie member on TL and the other forums, the content here is much more rich. and yes sometimes i wonder a bit about the posters motive, but at the end of the day i'm an adult and i don't need someone to 'save me from the vendors'. i've seen obvious vendor marketing (that add no value) removed very quickly which is great. threads such as urma's actually contribute to TL and so what if he has a business that is related? he is contributing to the content and that is what is important.

 

-mslk

 

How would it interfere with Pat continuing to contribute if he was labeled a vendor? How would it change the richness of the content posted?

A teacher is a great one when no ill motive is attached to his method. If a teacher teaches you something in order to benefit from you then is he in fact teaching you the truth or is he corralling and trapping your perceptions in order to point you in his direction?

Disclosing intent is valuable to you and I as students and to the new members of this community. There is no good reason to stand against it. You expect it from others who are in the public domain so why not here?

[Tradewinds 12]

The reality is very little transference can be accomplished through a message board.

 

The real learning comes from time and effort. So the message board is of limited use when it comes to the bulk of someone's personal trading advancements. So now the question is, if the message board is of such limited use then why do I and others bother to keep coming back and making posts? Where do we go from here?

 

If TL is of such little use they why do you bother making posts here? It seems that TL is of no real use to you in the sense of obtaining trading knowledge. So what's the point? Why don't you just go away?

 

Even though there is very little transference of knowledge accomplished here at TL, I take whatever I can get, wherever I can get it. Sometimes all I need is a hint, or being pointed in the right direction.

[Tradewinds 12]

And instead of the TL labels, e.g. "starting...," "guru", market wizard," etc, for those who are known to be vendors, a simple "commercial member" or "Vendor" would suffice.

 

Excellent idea. I'm all for it.

[Tradewinds 12]

How would it interfere with Pat continuing to contribute if he was labeled a vendor? How would it change the richness of the content posted?

 

I agree, I don't think it would detract at all from the quality or richness of the content.

[mslk 10]

How would it interfere with Pat continuing to contribute if he was labeled a vendor? How would it change the richness of the content posted?

A teacher is a great one when no ill motive is attached to his method. If a teacher teaches you something in order to benefit from you then is he in fact teaching you the truth or is he corralling and trapping your perceptions in order to point you in his direction?

Disclosing intent is valuable to you and I as students and to the new members of this community. There is no good reason to stand against it. You expect it from others who are in the public domain so why not here?

 

i just don't think we need to 'classify' people into these buckets as the problem is not as bad as it is made out to seem. if you don't like urma's thread just ignore it? the moderators have done a good enough job (imho) of getting rid of spammy vendors that don't add value. and yes some people self-promote a little much but again, big deal, any real spammy stuff is ridden of pretty quickly. we don't need big brother here on TL do we?

 

-mslk

[clmacdougall 11]

i just don't think we need to 'classify' people into these buckets as the problem is not as bad as it is made out to seem. if you don't like urma's thread just ignore it? the moderators have done a good enough job (imho) of getting rid of spammy vendors that don't add value. and yes some people self-promote a little much but again, big deal, any real spammy stuff is ridden of pretty quickly. we don't need big brother here on TL do we?

 

-mslk

 

As you've been a member here for only a "short time" perhaps it's a bigger "deal," than you realize.

 

Funny that your care free attitude doesn't extend to ignoring this thread and these posts!! If one didn't know better it would seem like you were posting on someone else' behalf or as an alias. But I'm sure that would never happen right!!

 

Your interest and love for vendors is certainly a unique one.

 

"Spammy stuff" is a subtle art nowadays, it starts by educating people that you need them and before long your shelling out money to someone who knows no more than you do. Why not give people a heads up on the possible intentions of a vendor? I mean a guy like you would never want someone else to get ripped off right?

[mslk 10]

As you've been a member here for only a "short time" perhaps it's a bigger "deal," than you realize.

 

Funny that your care free attitude doesn't extend to ignoring this thread and these posts!! If one didn't know better it would seem like you were posting on someone else' behalf or as an alias. But I'm sure that would never happen right!!

 

Your interest and love for vendors is certainly a unique one.

 

"Spammy stuff" is a subtle art nowadays, it starts by educating people that you need them and before long your shelling out money to someone who knows no more than you do. Why not give people a heads up on the possible intentions of a vendor? I mean a guy like you would never want someone else to get ripped off right?

 

ok i'm not a vendor and i don't love vendors. anyway, i just wanted to give a perspective from a newbie member that would be a 'target' of a vendor. i don't need anyone to protect me but thats just me. thx.

 

-mslk

[clmacdougall 11]

ok i'm not a vendor and i don't love vendors. anyway, i just wanted to give a perspective from a newbie member that would be a 'target' of a vendor. i don't need anyone to protect me but thats just me. thx.

 

-mslk

 

No trouble we'll let your local police, hospital and fire station know that you don't need anyone to protect you. Why in the world would you reject help and protection.

I'm sure that you don't represent the views of all "newbie" members as you seem to be trying so hard to remind us of your alleged "newbie" status. You just can never tell these days!!

[Tams 20]

a lot of people laugh at PureTick,

I have never been to their room and don't know if they are good or not,

but at least we can observe that they are a long term survivor in the market.

They have been around for a few years, and are sponsors of a number of forums.

We can deduce that whatever they are teaching/doing is making money,

and they can make enough money (either through trading or subscription) to afford to pay their bills (ie advertisement here).

 

if a vendor cannot disclose his real name, real picture,

and cannot afford to be a sponsor of a trading forum,

I don't see much credibility in what they teach/sell.

 

They might have good ideas,

They might have good theories,

They might have audited backtest PnL,

 

But all is talk...

 

The ability to put ideas into action and turn theories into cash is what separates men from boys (women/girls)

 

Before you can show me your cash... you don't have my respect.

 

 

 

note: the easiest way to show your cash is by becoming a sponsor of this forum.

I don't know how much it costs, but I don't think it would be so unreasonable that you can't afford it.

 

 

ps. if you don't want to be a sponsor, which is ok with everybody here.... please refrain from talking about your course, your students, your indicator, your book, your software, your audited papertrading PnL.... we don't need to hear it, please leave us out of your sufferings.

 

pss. Please do not post your blog URL in your signature. If you can't post the contents here, we don't need to know about it.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Tams

[mslk 10]

No trouble we'll let your local police, hospital and fire station know that you don't need anyone to protect you. Why in the world would you reject help and protection.

I'm sure that you don't represent the views of all "newbie" members as you seem to be trying so hard to remind us of your alleged "newbie" status. You just can never tell these days!!

 

fair enough. i guess free help and protection can't do no harm. well i think tams' post sums up a good path going forward.

- mslk

[clmacdougall 11]

fair enough. i guess free help and protection can't do no harm. well i think tams' post sums up a good path going forward.

- mslk

 

It certainly "can't do no harm" can it Ur......... or I mean Ta.......... or what I meant to say was, mslk Sorry about that, seems I made a few typo's..... well what's the point in taking all that time to erase them.

I'm glad you've had such a change of heart and have come to see things in a new light I look forward to more insightful posts from you in the future. I'll never forget the things I've learnt from your previous post, it was a real eye opener.

[Deusomega 10]

a lot of people laugh at PureTick,

 

 

For good reason search profit navigation over at another popular trading forum

 

I'll just give my personal opinion once more vendors are vendors they are out to sell not teach.

 

But I'm with you at least make em pay haha.

 

More income for MMS anyways they need his forum far more than he needs them.

[Tams 20]

For good reason search profit navigation over at another popular trading forum

 

I'll just give my personal opinion once more vendors are vendors they are out to sell not teach.

 

But I'm with you at least make em pay haha.

 

More income for MMS anyways they need his forum far more than he needs them.

 

feel free to start a new thread to discuss their "merit".

[Deusomega 10]

feel free to start a new thread to discuss their "merit".

 

"Ok I see a ton of threads degenerating into a 'vendor' bash ... so here is a thread for all of you to give your opinion on vendors. I'll be reviewing this thread for feedback."

 

Merely giving a counter view of PureTick and my opinion. No need to start a new thread when this thread is specifically tailored to what I said.

 

But thanks for making me feel free to start threads.

[brownsfan019 17]

Clear identification of those selling trading related products is needed IMO - sponsors of TL or not. As tams said though, if you are making $, then why not pay to be official here? I mean, it's got to be a drop in the bucket for the vendors mentioned in this thread.

 

You got something to sell? Great, but the entire forum should be able to recognize this immediately w/o having to dig through posts to see mentions of 'students' or 'class' or 'uber secret indicators now on sale' or insert your own 'stealth marketing' phrase here.

 

And here's a crazy thought - maybe those labeled as vendors could actually show they trade and do this for a living. I know, that's not standard among vendors at all (guess why), but maybe TL could set the new precedent - vendors that have proven they trade. (Cue up all vendors to now comment on why that would be incredibly silly and not worth their time).

 

At the very least, blatant/stealth vendors should kick MMS some cash for using his site to generate new business for yourself. That's just the nice thing to do... will any step up to the plate?

[MightyMouse 12]

 

And here's a crazy thought - maybe those labeled as vendors could actually show they trade and do this for a living. I know, that's not standard among vendors at all (guess why), but maybe TL could set the new precedent - vendors that have proven they trade. (Cue up all vendors to now comment on why that would be incredibly silly and not worth their time).

 

/QUOTE]

 

Brownsfan,

 

The "vendors" you are referring to would never risk exposing themselves for what they are by accepting your offer. I have echoed a similar offer many times.

 

The fact that they are afraid to risk something speaks loudly of their ability to risk anything. Such frail egos would not survive in the markets and are safer in a fantasy world with a fantasy class and fantasy students where they make no mistakes, make money 80% of the time and call a market turn within 1 to 2 points.

 

I will be honest, It is just too much fun watching them make such cuckoo claims and then, defenselessly, begin mud slinging and name calling when you ask them to back it up. I think even the greenest of green peas can understand what they are seeing when a "vendor" refuses to provide support.

 

I wouldn't change a thing with TL other than the amount of my posts that get censured. When someone wants to take a conversation to a new level, I think it should be allowed to go there.

 

In the main stream media we want to know where the President's cigar ended up. As such I would like to know about steve's experiences. By his own admission, he is a professional and never makes mistakes.

 

MM

Edited August 23, 2011 by MadMarketScientist
language

[clmacdougall 11]

Hows about a quick list of other non paying vendors on this site!! I've mentioned Steve46, Electroniclocal & Urma Blume. I did none of it with malice or personal disregard. It's just a fact! Are there others?? Who are they?

[zdo 20]

Hows about a quick list of other non paying vendors on this site!! I've mentioned Steve46, Electroniclocal & Urma Blume. I did none of it with malice or personal disregard. It's just a fact! Are there others?? Who are they?

 

Two others pop into mind

Norman Hallett

Rande Howell

 

My own opinion on Norman and co. is that they are 'great folks'. Consistent message across time, etc - providing rules, tips, suggestions (literally ). I'm not up on what's he's selling now, but long ago I bought one of his hypnosis CD's. And btw, his wife has a great voice for this! Well done, simply, elegant, reasonably priced product. Fortunately, the scripts were 'open' / disclosed, so I was able to discern the subtle discrepancies from the way I needed to go from the 'stock' trading advice imbedded in the product and was able to return it for a refund. Bottom line - his services are not for everyone ( at least as much as the promotions would suggest), but there is a pretty good percentage of 'efforting' traders who would benefit from at least a trial of his services...

 

Rande Howell... ditto as far as character and integrity go... Rande's services work at much more 'depth' than most 'trading psychologists' (and please correct me if that's not the correct label). With him your not getting 'what to do', you're getting how to get into awareness of your own patterns and dynamics. You know - the ones that are often running just below consciousness. A large percentage of developing traders don't even acknowledge such 'nonsense' - so once again almost ditto. His services are not for everyone but there is a pretty good percentage of developing traders who would benefit from 'investing' the time, energy and expense in this direction... For even further improvement, I would suggest to Rande that he take up real, fast time frame trading for about an hour a day (during non billable hours, of course ) for about three months... result, imo, would be a big updraft of rapport with clients and potential clients.

 

re Vendors Vendors Vendors In TL:

I don’t care if a vendor can ‘prove’ he’s super profitable or not.

I don’t care whether he has to label himself herein as a vendor or not.

I don’t care whether we hold them to a higher or different standard or not

I don’t care if other members slam the hell out of them or not. If they can’t take the heat..

I DO care if they reply to questions – especially the serious, difficult ones.

I could go into how each of the 5 vendors McD and I have listed evades, ignores, avoids questions. I would even accept answers like “that is proprietary info”, or “that would be billable work” but arrogantly ignoring sincere questions is a very fast way to kill good will and referrals from me…