Should I Try Again?

[ak14987 10]

I started learning trading 2 years ago. And after one year break(I only spend one year for leaning trading) i am back to trading again. And i wanted to share my new results here.

I was very stressed when i lost money. I thought to give up with trading. What do you think should i learn trading?

 

 

Gross Profit: 29.87 Gross Loss: 39.80 Total Net Profit: -9.93

Profit Factor: 0.75 Expected Payoff: -0.55

Absolute Drawdown: 0.01 Maximal Drawdown: 33.08 (99.79%) Relative Drawdown: 99.79% (33.08)

 

Total Trades: 18 Short Positions (won %): 13 (61.54%) Long Positions (won %): 5 (60.00%)

Profit Trades (% of total): 11 (61.11%) Loss trades (% of total): 7 (38.89%)

Largest profit trade: 6.43 loss trade: -17.42

Average profit trade: 2.72 loss trade: -5.69

Maximum consecutive wins ($): 6 (18.00) consecutive losses ($): 4 (-32.28)

Maximal consecutive profit (count): 18.00 (6) consecutive loss (count): -32.28 (4)

Average consecutive wins: 4 consecutive losses: 2

[JEHs 10]

Many of us have been at it a lot longer than that.

I don't think 2 years is a reasonable effort. If you want to do it then keep at it.

[Tradewinds 12]

I

Absolute Drawdown: 0.01 Maximal Drawdown: 33.08 (99.79%) Relative Drawdown: 99.79% (33.08)

 

Total Trades: 18 Short Positions (won %): 13 (61.54%) Long Positions (won %): 5 (60.00%)

Profit Trades (% of total): 11 (61.11%) Loss trades (% of total): 7 (38.89%)

Largest profit trade: 6.43 loss trade: -17.42

Average profit trade: 2.72 loss trade: -5.69

 

It seems like you are not cutting your losses. It looks like your win rate is about 60% percent. You took more Short trades then long. Do you ever think to yourself, "The price just went up, so it's probably going to go down now." In other words, do you have a bias towards fighting and be contrary to the market?

 

Don't trade live until you get your stats looking better. I'd look for a 70% percent win rate, and very little draw down.

[Maelstrom 10]

What I noticed is your winning trade % is pretty good at 60%, put your profit $ versus your losses is way out of sync. If you can increase your winning amount and/or reduce your loss amounts, you will be on your way.

 

JEH is absolutely correct - it has taken me over 10 years to get to the point I am (but I am a slow learner) - but, it can be done.

 

Good luck,

M

 

By the way, what markets are you trading?

[Tradewinds 12]

I thought to give up with trading. What do you think should i learn trading?

 

What do you think moves the price? Trend lines don't move the price. They show you, usually after it's to late, when the price trend changed. You need a leading indicator to price moves.

[ak14987 10]

I stopped learning my profession 2 years ago and dont want to go back to programming. But every time when I lose money I think that I do not know anything about trading and there is no one telling me if I do it right or not. And this makes me to think that I lose time with trading. 2 years and no good results yet.

 

I do intraday trading and I trade major forex pairs only. eurusd mostly. But even if I trade eurusd I look at gbpusd chart too. I watch only price and volumes. I use VSA and Wyckoff method mostly(still learning), Candlesticks analysis, chart patterns(tops, bottoms, triangles and all), S&R lines, trend lines, and i look at fibonacci retracement levels at times. I do not use any indicator. Sometimes I use MAs to see realtime S&R lines. Should I add something interesting?

 

And I lost my money because of not cutting my losses. Maybe I was stressed about my loss positions and thats why I did not cut them thinking wrongly and (again) hoping that the price will go down. But the price went up and the lot was big.

[pa18 10]

imho, your issue is thinking about 'making money', can you see psychologically this is harmful to you being successful in the long term? You do not need this factor which adds pressure and until you realize this, you're in for mediocre results both in terms of $ and yourself. Try to trade well first before thinking about making money.

 

And 2 years is pretty short to being successful in this game.

Edited July 21, 2011 by pa18

[Snow Dog 10]

Don't give up, at this stage all you've done is find a method that does not work for you.

 

Find a method you think suits you (time frame 4hr or 5 min whatever), time you have available to trade eg I can trade after work during US open). Make sure you have written rules and follow them.

 

Research your system in the time span you'll be trading it. For example if London open, it is notorious for switching direction and you might decide to trade reversals only in that time frame in line with the candles/patterns you like (1 2 3 reversals work well then).

 

Look back in time on charts for a 20 day uptrend, 20 day sideways and 20 day downtrend. If you plan stacks up in these 3 scenarios you should be comfortable that you have a solid plan. If it looks like it'll work on your research demo trade till you can show consistency. If it doesn't work you know to look for another method.

[phantom 16]

ak14987,

 

I feel your pain...

 

See my latest post in the following thread (post #142):

 

"What Really Works for Technical Traders"

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/9764-what-really-works-technical-traders-18.html

 

In fact, read the entire thread when time permits...

 

 

Luv,

Phantom

Edited July 21, 2011 by phantom

[jzw 10]

If you ever hesitate about closing a losing trade - you should stop right there.

 

Until you overcome your psychological block to closing a trade you always risk blowing up regardless of how good your trade selection is.

 

>>I use VSA and Wyckoff method mostly(still learning), Candlesticks analysis, chart patterns(tops, bottoms, triangles and all), S&R lines, trend lines, and i look at fibonacci retracement levels at times.

 

Using lots of different bits from different techniques can often confuse more than it helps. Start with something simple that works like horizontal S&R lines and add bits if you need them. Trading intraday you really need a simple method because your decision making process must be pretty quick.

[Tradewinds 12]

Trading intraday you really need a simple method because your decision making process must be pretty quick.

 

Fast decision making, and you need to anticipate where the next price level may hit, and put orders in ahead of time. The price moves so fast through optimal entry and exit points, that it is almost impossible to manually hit them at the split second they happen. I'm referring to a scalping strategy mostly, but unless you hit those major S/R levels where there is sideways chop, consolidation and a lot of time to enter/exit then you need a very fast reaction time.

[Rande Howell 10]

I stopped learning my profession 2 years ago and dont want to go back to programming. But every time when I lose money I think that I do not know anything about trading and there is no one telling me if I do it right or not. And this makes me to think that I lose time with trading. 2 years and no good results yet.

 

I do intraday trading and I trade major forex pairs only. eurusd mostly. But even if I trade eurusd I look at gbpusd chart too. I watch only price and volumes. I use VSA and Wyckoff method mostly(still learning), Candlesticks analysis, chart patterns(tops, bottoms, triangles and all), S&R lines, trend lines, and i look at fibonacci retracement levels at times. I do not use any indicator. Sometimes I use MAs to see realtime S&R lines. Should I add something interesting?

 

And I lost my money because of not cutting my losses. Maybe I was stressed about my loss positions and thats why I did not cut them thinking wrongly and (again) hoping that the price will go down. But the price went up and the lot was big.

 

Guys are showing you important distinctions in learning to become a successful trader. But until you learn how to regulate your emotional nature, it is going to be difficult to learn the necessary skills. The second thing that you might want to consider is asking yourself, "Who do I need to become to produce effective trading?"

 

As long as you are focused on losing money, the mindset your bring to trading is compromised. A trader needs to be in the NOW in each trade you are in. If you are thinking about prior losses while you are currently trading, you are not in the NOW. You are in the THEN or THE WHAT IF -- and this mindset is not giving your methodology a chance to work effectively.

 

This takes training and reps. It is you mindset that trades your methodology. Make sure you train it well.

 

Rande Howell

[Tradewinds 12]

This takes training and reps. It is your mindset that trades your methodology. Make sure you train it well.

 

Rande Howell

 

I'm just starting to solidify my strategy and my reactions to the market. I'm just starting to notice that the "reps" are beginning to clarify my thinking. I've been practice trading for a long, long time. It's embarrassing to state that, but I do it for the sake of anyone reading posts here, to understand that it takes a long time to prepare for and learn trading.

 

The problem with trading, is that you execute many, many bad reps before you learn how to trade. All those bad reps cause a serious problem. Then you have to "unlearn" all the garbage, and learn something new. Actually, the "unlearning" is not a willful, intentional action, the unlearning happens when you practice what works. The bad stuffs fades away when the good reps reprogram your mind. The bad habits are probably always, lurking "out there", in the back of your mind, waiting to ambush you.

 

I started writing down my rules on index cards. Then I go back an look at my index cards. So I'm using them sort of like "Flash Cards". That is one way to get "reps" in, and practice how fast you can recall your trade setups and rules without actually trading.

 

I've written down my trading rules many, many times. But they end up never being looked at again, and when I do look at them again, I realize that I now have a better rule. The index cards are out in the open. Sitting next to my chair in the living room. Not on my computer, or a notebook, but right there, very convenient.

[pa18 10]

As long as you are focused on losing money, the mindset your bring to trading is compromised. A trader needs to be in the NOW in each trade you are in. If you are thinking about prior losses while you are currently trading, you are not in the NOW. You are in the THEN or THE WHAT IF -- and this mindset is not giving your methodology a chance to work effectively.Rande Howell

 

Thanks Rande, that is the grail there.

[Ingot54 13]

I have identified two things that I believe are contributing to a worse trading record than you deserve, ak14987:

 

1) For someone who is still relatively inexperienced in trading (2 years is not much experience) you are doing it the hard way by attempting to trade the intra-day markets. I have read some texts that suggest that beginning/new traders should not attempt to trade any time frame shorter than the 4H, and preferably the Daily TF.

 

This takes the heat off immediately, and allows the trader to make entry/exit decisions based on trends where "noise" is less of a distraction. I know I do not speak for everyone, because some traders have been able to grasp scalping or short-term trading relatively quickly. Personally I can not do that - I can not scalp to save my life, and I am not a technical analyst's boot-lace (or maybe that's all I am) after more than 7 years at this profession.

 

Perhaps you could consider trading the higher TF like at least the 4H and maybe the Daily, in order to gain a stronger grasp of the market activity, and grow in confidence with your strategy. When you get that confidence, you will stop doing the things that damage your account. You won't need anything more than that.

 

2) The second thing that stood out, to me, was your apparent lack of MONEY MANAGEMENT.

 

... But the price went up and the lot was big.

It seems that you should not have had a position where "the lot was big." It is an easy thing to work out how many lots you can trade with a certain size account.

 

If your risk is 2%, then for a $10,000 account this is $200.

If your stop has to be 50 pips away from entry, then you just divide the 200 by 50 to arrive at the number of contracts.

In this case it will be $4 per pip, or 0.4 of a full contract, or 4 mini contracts ($4/pip).

If your SL has to be 100 pips away, then you must not trade more than 2 mini contracts, or $2/pip.

And if you need only a 20 pip SL, then you could trade $10/pip or 10 mini contracts.

 

Trading this way will give you 50 losses in a row before you are wiped out, if you use the same 4 mini contracts per trade. It seems to me that you may not have been using this form of money management. Perhaps you should take a look at it, to see if it is something that might help you remain in the market without blowing up an account.

 

It is always better to keep to the lower amounts per pip, and allow the magic of mathematical compounding to grow your account. It can and will happen for you - just give it a chance - be patient.

 

This temptation to take large lots comes initially from trying to grow a small account too quickly ... ie trading much larger lot sizes than the account can safely carry. You didn't say how much per pip you traded, or how large your account was (you don't need to tell us that) but even if you traded $1 per pip, that would still give you reasonable growth, if you are able to execute a 60% win-rate strategy, and at the same time take your losses as soon as it is clear the trade is not going to do what you expected.

 

Lastly, Phantom is running an excellent thread, at the link in his post above, and there is also another excellent thread here: http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/trading-psychology/10158-optiontimers-project.html where Optiontimer is kindly sharing a great strategy based on daily charting.

 

Do not give up.

 

Congratulations for having the courage to reach out for help - this forum is famous for traders making an effort to help others, who have begun to help themselves. I know with the right guidance you will make it - I haven't the slightest doubt about it.

 

Kind regards

 

Ingot

 

PS - It just occurred to me that you may be having difficulty taking your losses.

 

If so, it might help if you take notice of how you feel when you actually close a losing trade early. Before yo close a losing trade, the anxiety builds, and you can feel unhappiness and frustration getting stronger. But notice, as soon as you actually close that trade, you begin to put it behind you and calm down, and you begin to look forward again to finding a better trading opportunity.

 

That is why it is so important to take those losses FAST. Do not give a dollar more to the markets than your trading plan calls for. You already know you are going to have about 39% losses, so why not make them small ones? If in doubt about a trade, close it. There is always the next trade.

 

My apology for the long reply, but I think all of these issues may lie at the heart of your frustration.

[Ingot54 13]

But until you learn how to regulate your emotional nature, it is going to be difficult to learn the necessary skills.

With respect, Rande, if ak14987 does not deal with the things that are causing him stress in the first place, all the emotional regulation in the world is not going to do anything to change this situation.

 

For example (and as someone who has not experienced the stress of trading, you can't be expected to understand this) if ak14987 is trying to start with an account that is too small for the market he is attempting to trade, he will immediately become stressed about that. Further, he will be risking larger percentages of his account than he should be, in order to speed up the growth.

 

Experienced traders know that the rules of money management can not be altered too much if a trader wants to survive for long. Some traders risk 5% and some even 10% ... but I have not heard of many who survive doing that. None. This is something a trading coach would have ascertained first.

 

The second thing that you might want to consider is asking yourself, "Who do I need to become to produce effective trading?"

 

As long as you are focused on losing money, the mindset your bring to trading is compromised. A trader needs to be in the NOW in each trade you are in. If you are thinking about prior losses while you are currently trading, you are not in the NOW. You are in the THEN or THE WHAT IF -- and this mindset is not giving your methodology a chance to work effectively.

 

This takes training and reps. It is you mindset that trades your methodology. Make sure you train it well.

 

Rande Howell

Again, Rande, with respect, your solution contains too many hypotheticals. You assume too much. ak14987 is annoyed at losing money - that is as natural as eating. No one trades in order to get rid of money. I think the Trading in the Zone cliche has been a bit over-worked.

 

Working the mind into some kind of Zen state is great for some traders, and even better for psychologists who are so glad the concept came along, in time to give them something abstract to further complicate a trader's miserable state, to which they alone will provide the therapeutic solution.

 

Look - the way to deal with the anxiety of losses is to turn off the computer, walk away and cool off. Give the mind a break - go for a walk ... anything. It is hopeless telling a struggling trader to "get in the NOW" or "get away from the THEN or THE WHAT IF ... "

 

Your advice might be very much different if you had actually attempted to trade the markets yourself, and experienced some of the frustrations associated with learning, losses, and a failing account.

 

I can tell you that regulating my emotional nature had nothing to do with any breakthroughs that I have experienced. And your over-complicating the issues at every opportunity doesn't help anyone here, and I am unsure it ever has elsewhere.

 

I hope someone can straighten me out on this, but I fail to see where asking one's-self: "Who do I need to become to produce effective trading?" is pretty left field stuff for a trader who is simply not using money management principles, or who is trying to squeeze too much out of a small account.

 

Simple enough?

[Rande Howell 10]

I'm just starting to solidify my strategy and my reactions to the market. I'm just starting to notice that the "reps" are beginning to clarify my thinking. I've been practice trading for a long, long time. It's embarrassing to state that, but I do it for the sake of anyone reading posts here, to understand that it takes a long time to prepare for and learn trading.

 

The problem with trading, is that you execute many, many bad reps before you learn how to trade. All those bad reps cause a serious problem. Then you have to "unlearn" all the garbage, and learn something new. Actually, the "unlearning" is not a willful, intentional action, the unlearning happens when you practice what works. The bad stuffs fades away when the good reps reprogram your mind. The bad habits are probably always, lurking "out there", in the back of your mind, waiting to ambush you.

 

I started writing down my rules on index cards. Then I go back an look at my index cards. So I'm using them sort of like "Flash Cards". That is one way to get "reps" in, and practice how fast you can recall your trade setups and rules without actually trading.

 

I've written down my trading rules many, many times. But they end up never being looked at again, and when I do look at them again, I realize that I now have a better rule. The index cards are out in the open. Sitting next to my chair in the living room. Not on my computer, or a notebook, but right there, very convenient.

 

Learning to learn is a skill that passes us by when our mind has acclimated to see only a small slice of what is right in front of our eyes. In trading, you are forced into learning how to learn -- or you stay stuck in the old ways of thinking about things. Invisable biases, beliefs, and assumptions have to be brought into the light of awareness and new ones have to be incorporated so that you can "see" differently. It does take time, but developing what is known in Zen as Beginner's Mind really shortens the learning curve. We are not our beliefs; they are only assumptions that have taken on the power of truth because we have become blind to them. Trading really exposes this.

 

Rande Howell

[wits7yle 10]

The best way to find out whether Trading is really truly for you. 1) Do not sim trade. 2) Trade real money and if your curiosity continues to grow and progress each day/week/month despite losing piles of money, if you find yourself doing whatever it takes to supplement your income while you trade, scrambling to pay off your creditors, embracing social and financial struggles, and after 2+ years of doing this and your passion has not waned. YOU ARE A TRUE TRADER. If after all this you're still trading or attempting to trade, it's just a matter of time...my friend. I might add that the hardships and struggle you face as a human being going thru this journey is absolutely priceless. The person that comes out of the rubble at the end of it all both personally, socially and professionally is not to be taken lightly at all.

[Tonkadad 10]

 

I hope someone can straighten me out on this, but I fail to see where asking one's-self: "Who do I need to become to produce effective trading?" is pretty left field stuff for a trader who is simply not using money management principles, or who is trying to squeeze too much out of a small account.

 

Simple enough?

 

I think it is more important the reasons/motivations why a trader does or doesn't do a certain action (proper money management for example) than the action itself. There is a reason why "a trader is not using money management principles, or is trying to squeeze too much out of a small account."

 

I believe we all respond/react to situations in a fairly consistent pattern, that pattern is created by our interpretation of events/experiences in our lives. We run on auto-pilot.

 

I think this is a critical question we need to ask ourselves:

 

"Who do I need to become to ....(fill in the blank) ?"

 

produce effective trading

be a better parent

be a better husband/wife

 

As a inconsistent trader, the main question I have started to ask myself is "are the actions I am taking in alignment with my goal of becoming a consistently profitable trader?".

 

I don't think trading is different than anything else in life, it takes dedication, commitment, discipline, .etc...

 

It definitely is very direct in it profit or loss column and very direct in the emotions that come up but to me it just learning how to control our minds to function in the trading environment.

 

I reserve the right to change my mind at a later date.

[gotrade786 10]

I saw your report on your profit and loss. You are really in a safer position than the persons I have seen investing and loosing everytime.

I have seen investors earning in the first half and loosing it on the second half of the day trading.

The main reason of loss for new trader is the intraday trading. Doing Intraday without enough experience in long term investment is really a death trap. Only learning is not important, one should have his/her fundamentals strong with enough practical experience.

Best of luck dont give up your profit rate is marginal and not that bad as a beginner.