Ego Vs Fear - Which is Worse

[TheNegotiator 13]

  horace said:

Hi Neg,

 

Read Siuya's post copied below, as he has exactly nailed it.

We all need to view trading in it's greater context in order to make the maximum progress.

 

 

the thing that is black and white is the END RESULT.

the thing that has many shades of grey is the EXPECTED RESULT

 

often fear stops us from achieving the desired end result and the ego has us believing we can still get the expected result......or worse that we deserve the expected result.

 

Yes Horace, I do understand what you were suggesting. However, the result of a trade without context is meaningless for understanding the efficacy of your system and your ability as a trader.

[horace 10]

  TheNegotiator said:

Yes Horace, I do understand what you were suggesting. However, the result of a trade without context is meaningless for understanding the efficacy of your system and your ability as a trader.

 

Hi Neg,

 

You are not required to understand my system or my ability as a Trader.

In fact the opposite applies as you are in no way a factor in the End Result of my

account.

 

I cannot be any more Black and White than this.

[TheNegotiator 13]

  horace said:

Hi Neg,

 

You are not required to understand my system or my ability as a Trader.

In fact the opposite applies as you are in no way a factor in the End Result of my

account.

 

I cannot be any more Black and White than this.

 

Okay mate, I just don't think this is a productive discussion any more. What you might think and what is fact are not necessarily the same thing. I am not going to debate a statement like the above because clearly it's just a crude assumption you are making. If you are comfortable with it, fine. The way in which you choose to heuristically approach trading and anything else is just not my business. I think it's important to get back to the actual topic up for debate. Although the former may be quite apt in this case.

 

Good luck.

[horace 10]

  TheNegotiator said:

Okay mate, I just don't think this is a productive discussion any more. What you might think and what is fact are not necessarily the same thing. I am not going to debate a statement like the above because clearly it's just a crude assumption you are making. If you are comfortable with it, fine. The way in which you choose to heuristically approach trading and anything else is just not my business. I think it's important to get back to the actual topic up for debate. Although the former may be quite apt in this case.

 

Good luck.

 

Well, that is a black and white reaction

[ahimsa 10]

  horace said:

Well, that is a black and white reaction

 

  MadMarketScientist said:

I think he was referring to 'which is worse, ego or fear' when saying that things aren't black and white ...

 

MMS

 

i think that is worse fear than ego .ego live most in surface in our conscious state,fear live more in deep in our inconscious,and come when we don't expect,and this is worse for the trade.but i think that the worse moment in trading are others because is full of ugly moment,maybe ego and fear sometime can help us for close and stop a loss or for don't open a wrong position.

[Rande Howell 10]

  Tradewinds said:

I did an advanced search for threads with the word "ego" in the title. I got no results. I did an advanced search for threads with the word "fear" in the title, and the search returned 12 threads with the word "fear" in the title.

 

If I search entire posts, there are 404 search results found for the word "fear". With the word "ego", there are no results. Actually, I think there is something wrong with the advanced search because I know of at least one post with the word "ego" in it.

 

There seems to be a lot of focus on fear, but I'm wondering if there isn't a deeper issue. An issue that maybe people don't want to talk about. So if nobody wants to talk about it, I do. :rofl:

 

My initial thought is that a vain ego is worse than fear. You must be humble to eat those bitter losses and admit that you were wrong. And of course, I am right about this, because I am always right. :rofl: (Just a little joke there).

 

Tradewinds

 

The ego that we develop is a product of the fears that have shaped us. Freeing ourselves from the blindness of our ego is done through working with our fears.

 

Rande Howell

[Ingot54 13]

Fear can be so easily overcome ... in a word ... confidence.

 

Confidence in the strategy. is all that is required to overcome fear of the outcome.

If one has no confidence, then one is afraid.

 

How's that for black-and-white?

 

On the other hand, nothing can help an inflated ego - even the truth will not, for to face the truth requires humility, and humility and ego never went through the same door.

 

It has been said that the original sin was ... pride ... and the evidence of pride is an inflated ego.

 

It is possible to be confident without being proud, but the minute you think you have humility, you've lost it!

 

There are a few threads on this forum where there is evidence of humble traders ... but I have to stress, these are very rare!

 

See how far you get when you challenge a trader to verify a statement about trading!

 

See how far you get when you challenge a non-trader to verify a statement about trading!

 

How quickly the ego springs to the defence ... and please don't ask me to verify that! :rofl:

[Tradewinds 12]

  Rande Howell said:

The ego that we develop is a product of the fears that have shaped us. Freeing ourselves from the blindness of our ego is done through working with our fears.

 

Rande Howell

 

What about pain? Can we talk about ego without considering why it exists, and what hurts the ego? Is it about self-worth?

 

I think of ego in negative terms. For example, someone who is overconfident, maybe even arrogant. But what is the motivation for someone to become overconfident or egotistical? I'm wondering if it is an overreaction to feeling vulnerable and or helpless at some point in ones life?

[Tradewinds 12]

I did an internet search on the word ego and happened to see a quote from a book stating that:

 

Ego is The False Center

 

The explanation is, that Ego is something created by the outside world. In other words, we want validation, acceptance and praise from the outside world, not from an inner acceptance of ourselves.

 

We develop our sense of self by whatever feedback we get from the outside world. As an infant or young child, we have no influence over how we are treated or taken care of. We are simply at the mercy of our caretakers. These caretakers influence the sense of ourselves.

 

But hopefully, at some point, we have a choice to create our own validation from within. But this choice to refuse the outside worlds' definition and validation of yourself may result in a crisis of identity. If your whole understanding and definition of yourself comes from the outside world, and you decide to let go of that, then what fills the void? What gives meaning, worth and direction you?

[Rande Howell 10]

  Tradewinds said:

What about pain? Can we talk about ego without considering why it exists, and what hurts the ego? Is it about self-worth?

 

I think of ego in negative terms. For example, someone who is overconfident, maybe even arrogant. But what is the motivation for someone to become overconfident or egotistical? I'm wondering if it is an overreaction to feeling vulnerable and or helpless at some point in ones life?

 

Ego is a slippery slope as a construct. I use the term to describe the adaptation of our brain/mind/personality to the world we live in. A self is constructed and organized so that the living system that we are survives in the world. Often the ego maladapts that can produce an organization of the self beyond healthy ego. It can become fragile or over inflated. In Jungian work the ego journey is to first create a strong viable sense of self that can endure the rigors of further development. From this strength the journey of life is launched.

 

Trading will show the trader the very specific areas that the ego needs to be worked on to build a sense of self that can journey into the rigors of trading.

 

Rande Howell

[ahimsa 10]

  Tradewinds said:

I did an internet search on the word ego and happened to see a quote from a book stating that:

 

Ego is The False Center

 

The explanation is, that Ego is something created by the outside world. In other words, we want validation, acceptance and praise from the outside world, not from an inner acceptance of ourselves.

 

We develop our sense of self by whatever feedback we get from the outside world. As an infant or young child, we have no influence over how we are treated or taken care of. We are simply at the mercy of our caretakers. These caretakers influence the sense of ourselves.

 

But hopefully, at some point, we have a choice to create our own validation from within. But this choice to refuse the outside worlds' definition and validation of yourself may result in a crisis of identity. If your whole understanding and definition of yourself comes from the outside world, and you decide to let go of that, then what fills the void? What gives meaning, worth and direction you?

 

Me too i done a internet search (further to some psychology books that i read ),and if it can help you further Rande answers,that is a teacher in psychology. In psychoanalisis l'ego correspond at io ( I ),because is the italian Translate from latin used by Freud,l'io administer defense mechanism.in many psychoanalitic schools,like the psichoanalisis of i ,one of the first objective is to reinforce the i so don't happen that like a ship risk to rest at the mercy of inconscious. BUT i read also that isn't correct to assimilate io to ego only for a linguistic translate like freud done,because,in psychology,l'io rappresent a psychic structure,l'i is the principal mediator of awareness.the i is the central manager of every psychic activity.ego is a primordial mould of i .

 

ahimsa

[Ingot54 13]

  SIUYA said:

I think Ego is worse.....

It is the fear of being wrong which hinders many traders, and you see it all the time, and thrown about in many threads....how often do you read about ego and not fear

.............. apart from the fear of losing some money, its more the fear of being wrong and still not accepting that in reality we cannot predict the future.

 

We cannot tell whats going to happen, no matter how much experience we have, all we can do is place bets and accept when we are wrong and ride it when we are right.

 

While maybe this is the fear and so its actually the same thing.

You are right, too often this focus on fears and facing them and overcoming them misses the point of not actually needing to face up to the traders real fear.....that we cannot master the markets as we cannot control ourselves........and this is not very ego boosting.

I like this concept and explanation, Siuya. Again you have nailed a key tenet of trading.

 

Being right is no more cause for elation, than being wrong is cause for depression. Being right / wrong are just a part of trading, and not to be seen as a personal kudo ... or a demerit ... if the outcome is one way or the other.

 

Traders can get over this need to be right by seeing trading as it is - the enactment of a very long course of events, in which they have an opportunity to use a strategy to uncover both the positive and negative outcomes of a certain series of actions.

 

Why should a trader take it personally if the outcome is one way or the other?

 

If the strategy is not going to produce a positive expectation (flawed) then change the strategy. No need to take it personally, as if the trader is the one with the flaw. (Notwithstanding that inexperience is certainly a factor in negative trading outcomes too, even with a good strategy.)

 

Taking the negative results personally is certainly going to create anxiety over time.

 

For lack of knowledge the people perish. It is the same with a trading strategy - the inability to master one decent strategy is destroying trading accounts, and thus the trader is hurt.

 

Mastery of the strategy builds confidence, and confidence in turn delivers love and deeper belief in, and for, the strategy.

 

And love casts out fear.

 

Maybe that is too simple?

 

EDIT: This focus on fear and ego might be a good study, but is probably a very bad topic to become pre-occupied with. It does not serve a trader to be worried that they are worried that they are worried.

 

This neurotic navel gazing has its place - but surely then it is time to take action.

The trader needs to simply take responsibility for the outcome, and there has been enough written on forums - good ones like this - to assist traders to deal with flawed approaches.

[laurus12 10]

  zdo said:

Maybe Ego is fear.

ie ego is created to cope with fear … Generated, developed, and sustained by 'judgment' patterns based in fear…

 

You are quite right Zdo. The trading type of fear is of ego and the two can therefore not be separated. Trading fear is ego in action.

 

To be psychologically correct and if we discard the tiny part of our ego which we need, which is reality based in the sense of running when getting chased by a lion, the "false self" delusional kind of ego which the majority of us is struggling with is born out of fear to cope with misconceptions about life and our selves that is in fact simply put not true.

 

Fear in trading is basically founded on the fear of not getting the basic things we need in life. And to my point with this one, the same with hope. The hope of getting what one long for with the underlying function behind it which is the fear of never getting it. Pretty many ticks that is being lost in both actual profits and losses every year on that one.

 

And seriously, to my opinion the same goes with discipline. Many of us have the impression that disciplined people are some kind of tough "hot shots", but to my opinion discipline is based on trust. Meaning the ego have come to trusting. In trading this would mean being confident in your own ability to execute things according to your plan, knowing that your trading plan or strategy is good, and knowing or trusting that what you do will actually give you what you need. Take this trust away from the disciplined trader and you'll see the ego making a full monkey wreckage of the whole system. But off course all not true if the person would be some kind of ego transcended Taoist or Zen guru trader .

 

Laurus

Edited July 24, 2011 by laurus12