Ego Vs Fear - Which is Worse

[Tradewinds 12]

I did an advanced search for threads with the word "ego" in the title. I got no results. I did an advanced search for threads with the word "fear" in the title, and the search returned 12 threads with the word "fear" in the title.

 

If I search entire posts, there are 404 search results found for the word "fear". With the word "ego", there are no results. Actually, I think there is something wrong with the advanced search because I know of at least one post with the word "ego" in it.

 

There seems to be a lot of focus on fear, but I'm wondering if there isn't a deeper issue. An issue that maybe people don't want to talk about. So if nobody wants to talk about it, I do. :rofl:

 

My initial thought is that a vain ego is worse than fear. You must be humble to eat those bitter losses and admit that you were wrong. And of course, I am right about this, because I am always right. :rofl: (Just a little joke there).

 

I think that one of the most important lessons I've learned is to take immediate action if I made a bad entry and the market starts going against my position. (Stating that really boosts my ego. I'm really feeling quite superior now.) I find it almost fascinating how difficult it is to admit that I'm wrong. I seems to be "hard wired" into my brain. It's as if the admission of being wrong is something that I will automatically deny and avoid with great resolve. Who wrote this stupid program anyway?!!! I need to be re-programed. LOL.

[SIUYA 11]

I think Ego is worse.....

It is the fear of being wrong which hinders many traders, and you see it all the time, and thrown about in many threads....how often do you read about ego and not fear....(and my expert psych analysis attached)...paraphrased examples such as

 

1...I hate it when the market stops you out at the bottom and then reverses,

 

in other words, you had no fear of trading, and so you could stop and reverse or you could just get over it and keep trading, instead you focus on how you were wrong and that you hate it, and that it always seems to get you.......no, its just trading

 

2...I just want to revenge trade and get what the market owes me

 

Sorry.....the market does not even no who you are. It will not offer satisfaction for revenge, it will likely just proove you wrong over and over again, and until you see things as a series of trades this mindset will hurt you. there is no fear of further trading to get revenge, instead many seem more motivated to proove themselves just to satisfy their ego.

 

3...those sticking market makers/global cartel took my money.

 

You gave it to them.....and fear probably wont stop you from doing it again, but controlling the ego and working out how best to trade might help.

 

4....i did not want to take the loss

 

why - the loss was already there as there is no such thing as a paper loss, all you did not want to do was admit you were wrong and your ego wanted you to hang in there to proove you were right. You dont fear the loss - you already have it, you fear the confirmation of you being wrong.

 

5...I rode it all the way down for a 10% loss, doubled up and then got out at break even.

 

you are likely to be on the way to the poor house and your focus was on being right, not on cutting the loss moving on and looking to reenter.

 

6....I paid good money for this system and it sucked.

 

In other words, you either did not do your homework, believed the hype, did not listen to others, thought you had the quick path to success......none of these revolve around fear....its all about ego thinking that you are smarter than others. You dont seem to fear the loss of money on these systems.???

 

7....my system is the best and you others dont know what you are talking about, and I am too busy teaching paid students to tell you the secrets.

 

nothing about fear hear except maybe to pray on your ego that you want to be the club that knows the secrets.....or maybe this is a fear for some people....until they finally realise there are no secrets.

 

8....I SIM traded and then when it came to real money I lost.....

 

probably because you either did not realise that SIM trading is not 100% representative of the markets and that when it came to real money your account did not lie to you like you most likely lied to yourself while SIM trading......not out of fear, but out of pride.

 

9.....if 5% of traders make money and the rest loose

 

normally if you applied this to other things in life such as.....5% of parachutes will open, the rest wont, 95% of surgical patients will die on the table, there is 5% chance of you not choking today......

yes, they are silly examples, but think about it, in these examples we would all say i am not stupid I wont do that, whereas in trading our egos say I will be in that 5%....there seems to be no fear involved.

..............

so yes I think ego and the bruising of it hurts more than the fear....as there is two things you can loose in this game....money and pride....in most of Randes examples (I am sure he and others could comment here) the people he talks about are accomplished traders who are suffering some fear, and I apart from the fear of losing some money, its more the fear of being wrong and still not accepting that in reality we cannot predict the future, we cannot tell whats going to happen, no matter how much experience we have, all we can do is place bets and accept when we are wrong and ride it when we are right.

 

While maybe this is the fear and so its actually the same thing, you are right, too often this focus on fears and facing them and overcoming them misses the point of not actually needing to face up to the traders real fear.....that we cannot master the markets as we cannot control ourselves........and this is not very ego boosting.

[Predictor 11]

Fear is quite worse then ego. Ego can lead to large losses. Fear can stop one from even taking the first action. One can learn from losses. One can't learn from inaction. Fear leads to irrationality, as well.

[zdo 20]

Great OP re:

 

There seems to be a lot of focus on fear, but I'm wondering if there isn't a deeper issue. An issue that maybe people don't want to talk about. So if nobody wants to talk about it, I do

 

Maybe Ego is fear.

ie ego is created to cope with fear … Generated, developed, and sustained by 'judgment' patterns based in fear…

[MadMarketScientist 11]

Ego is worse ... there is someone we call 'stupid proud' because he constantly does stupid things because his pride prevents him from seeing clearly. Being afraid is ok, it gives a 6th sense and keeps you alert to your surroundings. Like Andy Grove said, "always be paranoid"

 

MMS

[Predictor 11]

Good point. Sometimes fear can be useful. Sometimes ego can be useful. They aren't inherently bad or good. more important is to listen to your emotions and monitor results.. does your fears help you avoid losses more then they cost in profits? Does ego/confidence help in placing trades and taking action?

 

Listen to yourself and monitor your results. Most things aren't black and white.

[horace 10]

Most things aren't black and white.

 

This is a conversation about trading unless I am mistaken.

What is not more black and white than making money or losing money.

Edited July 18, 2011 by horace

[Predictor 11]

Making money and losing money is rather fuzzy in the markets, actually. Fx, today I placed a limit to short and market moved very hard to my limit: I pulled my limit. Market went down very hard. I shorted it at a worse price. Market retraced and went hard against me. Looked like I might lose. A few moments later my target was hit.

 

There were several times today when I thought I could be wrong. Several times when the outcome was uncertain. Actually, the desire for certainty in the markets is probably one of the greatest reasons for failure.

 

Last week, I had a day trading position that was up a huge amount. I took half of it off at the highs for the day. It looked very certain I'd make money. The market reversed hard against me and even with a half position: the net result was my barely eek out a gain. It looked very certain I'd make a huge amount that day. It wasn't and I very nearly had a loss.

 

I can't think of anything more uncertain then the market, actually. There are some methods like martingale that make money most of the time but lose more then they make. Of course, most traders know not to martingale but if one weren't introduced to these concepts then it is conceivable they could be led to believe they had a profitable method when they didn't.

 

The desire for unrealistic certainty is the primary reason that rainbow merchants and unskilled vendors rake in huge amounts of money every year.

 

This is a conversation about trading unless I am mistaken.

What is not more black and white than making money or losing money.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Predictor

[horace 10]

Making money and losing money is rather fuzzy in the markets, actually. Fx, today I placed a limit to short and market moved very hard to my limit: I pulled my limit. Market went down very hard. I shorted it at a worse price. Market retraced and went hard against me. Looked like I might lose. A few moments later my target was hit.

 

There were several times today when I thought I could be wrong. Several times when the outcome was uncertain. Actually, the desire for certainty in the markets is probably one of the greatest reasons for failure.

 

Last week, I had a day trading position that was up a huge amount. I took half of it off at the highs for the day. It looked very certain I'd make money. The market reversed hard against me and even with a half position: the net result was my barely eek out a gain. It looked very certain I'd make a huge amount that day. It wasn't.

 

I can't think of anything more uncertain then the market, actually.

 

Have you considered avoiding the desire to out-guess the market and just focus on making money by following the market.

[Tams 20]

Have you considered avoiding the desire to out-guess the market and just focus on making money by following the market.

 

he's the predictor... he predicts the market !

 

 

LOL

Edited July 18, 2011 by Tams

[horace 10]

he's the predictor... he predicts the market !

 

 

LOL

 

Have you tried fading his calls

[Tams 20]

Have you tried fading his calls

 

I won't touch a snake oil salesman with a 10 foot pole.

 

he has a 9 to 5 job, he said he can't afford to trade for a living. LOL.

 

 

you can find his ramblings here:

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/e-mini-futures-trading-laboratory/10283-scalping-es-living.html

 

ps. he used the handle light65536, then changed it to Predictor half way through the thread.

[TheNegotiator 13]

Maybe Ego is fear.

ie ego is created to cope with fear … Generated, developed, and sustained by 'judgment' patterns based in fear…

 

Good point zdo! I'd say though maybe they are the same thing entirely though. Self delusion to cope with realities which diverge from what we want or need to be true. Just that they are applied given different circumstances of perceived pattern repetition.

 

This is a conversation about trading unless I am mistaken.

What is not more black and white than making money or losing money.

 

Making money or not making money is not always black or white. You trade with a particular strategy and you aren't guaranteed a specific percentage of winners and losers. You might think you are. Perception can be a very misleading thing. Even the most reliable science is either 'best guess' or even variable based on circumstance.

 

Anyway, being that it is more than possible fear and ego are one and the same, I will go for an equal weighting of importance. Like so many things in trading and life, the universe and everything, balance is such an elegant thing.

[horace 10]

Good point zdo! I'd say though maybe they are the same thing entirely though. Self delusion to cope with realities which diverge from what we want or need to be true. Just that they are applied given different circumstances of perceived pattern repetition.

 

 

 

Making money or not making money is not always black or white. You trade with a particular strategy and you aren't guaranteed a specific percentage of winners and losers. You might think you are. Perception can be a very misleading thing. Even the most reliable science is either 'best guess' or even variable based on circumstance.

 

Anyway, being that it is more than possible fear and ego are one and the same, I will go for an equal weighting of importance. Like so many things in trading and life, the universe and everything, balance is such an elegant thing.

 

Black and white and expecting a guaranteed outcome are not the same thing in my book.

The difference requires a more thoughtful approach

[TheNegotiator 13]

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate then on what you mean by making money. Unless you are specifically referring to individual trade outcomes, how is it black or white?

[SIUYA 11]

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate then on what you mean by making money. Unless you are specifically referring to individual trade outcomes, how is it black or white?

 

the thing that is black and white is the END RESULT.

the thing that has many shades of grey is the EXPECTED RESULT

 

often fear stops us from achieving the desired end result and the ego has us believing we can still get the expected result......or worse that we deserve the expected result.

[MadMarketScientist 11]

This is a conversation about trading unless I am mistaken.

What is not more black and white than making money or losing money.

 

I think he was referring to 'which is worse, ego or fear' when saying that things aren't black and white ...

 

MMS

[MightyMouse 12]

Fear is cancer to trading.

 

Egoism is probably exactly opposite to humility which is the virtue you practice in the market.

 

Ego probably doesn't come up much because those with egos fade away quickly.

 

Try a search on humility or humble.

[Tradewinds 12]

Have you ever seen those stickers that people put on their vehicles that state: "No Fear!". I've never seen a sticker on a vehicle that states: "No Ego!". :rofl:

[Tradewinds 12]

Fear is cancer to trading.

 

What is the trading equivalent to cancer chemotherapy and irradiation? In order to get rid of the fear cancer?

[horace 10]

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate then on what you mean by making money. Unless you are specifically referring to individual trade outcomes, how is it black or white?

 

 

Hi Neg,

 

Read Siuya's post copied below, as he has exactly nailed it.

We all need to view trading in it's greater context in order to make the maximum progress.

 

 

the thing that is black and white is the END RESULT.

the thing that has many shades of grey is the EXPECTED RESULT

 

often fear stops us from achieving the desired end result and the ego has us believing we can still get the expected result......or worse that we deserve the expected result.

[mg1193 10]

Ego and fear have their own problems, but hope is the worst.

[phantom 16]

Which is worse - ego or fear???

 

You've all given good reasons for your perspective.

 

Here's my perspective: they're both worse...

 

 

Luv,

Phantom

[Tradewinds 12]

Which is worse - ego or fear???

 

You've all given good reasons for your perspective.

 

Here's my perspective: they're both worse...

 

 

Luv,

Phantom

 

Please Phantom! Stop thinking outside the box! :rofl:

[Tradewinds 12]

Ego and fear have their own problems, but hope is the worst.

 

Oh yah!! What about begging? :rofl: