Scalping ES for a Living

[Predictor 11]

@tams please quit posting in this thread. you are distracting. I already made it clear I'm interested in people who have scalped the futures and made significant profits (over a sustained time) or taken Larry's course. Thanks.

[noego 10]

@bobcollett Avg hold is around 20 hours. You can see at C2: it does change. My old bread&butter was a 2-3 day trade. It tends to be around 20-30 hours.

 

My associate does not use the scalping he room. He is very satisfied but trades in using the MP room.

 

It is rumored that Levine made his money by arbitraging the big contract against the mini. Arbitrage is basically profiting from the bid/ask spread. Most pit traders profited by capturing the spread, many times per day.

 

Very interested in more first hand experience, i.e not what is rumored or what one hopes or thinks or dreams. Has anyone scalp the ES or other futures with a 5k account and made 100k per year? Has anyone scalp the futures and made 100k per year with any size account? What size was needed?

 

It's not as much about account size as it skill.....a good trader (very few of those) can make money with a small account as it has more to do with discipline and money management than a "system". You must wait for proper setups and learn to sit on your hands for hours at a time. The questions you are asking tell most of us (taking some liberty here) that it won't matter how many contracts you trade or how big your account is...scalping your account will likely cause you to lose more than you make as it is the case with most traders....advice is to stop looking for someone to make your living calling trades and find a little edge that works for you under most conditions and exploit it. Just my 2 pennies. Not trying to be abrasive but I don't see a real way to answer your question as no two traders are alike and most of them suck.

[robi749 10]

Why don't you just pay Larry?

[Predictor 11]

Robi, nice job from for a firs time poster. He hasn't shown me the real money track record of what he claims to do. The average profit per trade was $20. They claim 8k per month profits on a 5k account. I do not believe them. If the simulator was the least bit off then instead of 100k profit, at $20 per trade, we could be looking at a 100k loss.

 

Moreover, not a single person here has indicated they have personally did this performance here.

 

Why don't you just pay Larry?

[Tams 20]

@tams please quit posting in this thread. you are distracting. I already made it clear I'm interested in people who have scalped the futures and made significant profits (over a sustained time) or taken Larry's course. Thanks.

 

you sound frustrated.

 

is it because of your inability to actualize your audited third party hypothetical track record?

 

or because you are envy of something? eg. Levine?

[Predictor 11]

@ tams I'd ignore you if I could. You are derailing this discussion with your inane comments.

 

Just refocus this thread, I'm only looking for traders who have scalped the ES or another future for a year and have made at least 60k in net profit OR those who took every trade in larry's scalping room and can comment on the performance you had in relation to what they claim.

 

If anyone has scalp the ES for at least 1 year with only $5,000 account required and averaged even 5k per month (Larry's program claims 8k) with a 2 point stop then I'll both pay you for real money records and for mentoring. If you have achieved similar results, i.e came close, then I'd still be interested to speak with you and might also pay you for mentoring.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Predictor

[nakachalet 10]

I see the previous thread here. First, let me start by stating that I'm a *very* successful trader. I am already more successful by measurable means then most. I have 2 of the top ranked futures systems at C2 greater then 6 months old (one discretionary and one quantitative). I've been over there at that other trading forum. However, I'm thinking of moving here because there doesn't seem to be a lot of quality posting going on over there.

 

I have 2 questions. Please read them carefully.

 

1. Has anyone taken every trade in Larry Levines trading room with eral money and do the results match the hypothetical results they send out? I seen what happened to the other thread about his program. Please do not share your experience unless you have taken every trade with real money for at least 1 month (or as close as possible).

 

2. They claim they do around 5k NET per month with only 5k in the account trading 1-3 ES contracts with a max stop of 2 points. They actually average around 7-8k month net. I do not believe that is possible. They claimed over 100k profits last year trading 1-3 contracts. They sent me an Excel file but no real money track record. If anyone here can do that with 5k account and produce real money track results for at least 1 year then I'd be willing to do 2 things: A. Pay you and B. Pay you for mentoring. Again, let me be frank I do not believe that it is possible. I, also, offering mentoring and trade the ES nearly exclusively on hypothetical account. I take proxy trades with rea money at NADEX since April -- for every trade I place. I have very strong returns but nothing like that. The average trade profit is around $20 per trade they claim. This is very low.

 

I honestly, think, it would be difficult to trade the ES for a living with even 100k. Most everything has told me one needs around 300k to trade for a living.

 

First, let me start by stating that I'm a *very* successful trader. I am already more successful by measurable means then most.

 

I honestly, think, it would be difficult to trade the ES for a living with even 100k. Most everything has told me one needs around 300k to trade for a living

 

a trader who claims that he/she is a successful trader need to, imho, already know answers to those two above questions/statements.... shouldn't he/she....?

 

in terms of reality, if you think that you are already a very successful trader.... great, congrats, more power to you....

 

mind you, there are miles and miles of significant differences between posting on c2 and trading live....; similarly there are also significant differences between backtesting and trading live signal.... they are altogether mutually exclusive....

 

if and when you already learn the ins and outs of trading real time and live.... you surely do not need 300k nor even 100k.... in your trading acct to trade profitably....

 

for those who are just learning how to trade.... not necessarily learning how to trade profitably and consistently yet.... these two concepts and practices are also significantly different.... as well....

 

another misconception about what a trader should receive in return at the end of the trading session, some say they expect 200 usd per day, some prefer 300 usd per day, some 500 usd per session.... so on and so forth.... of course, most of these questions are raised by not yet experienced traders.... for an experienced trader, he/she would take whatever the market would give for that particular session.... no more and no less.

 

another factor directly relates to the amount that one can expect as profit at the end of a trading session is.... what the trader puts at risk when he/she trades.... if you only trade one contract at a time, it is very difficult but not entirely impossible to take home 500 usd profit.... at the end of the trading session.... :missy:

 

if you have time, pls take a look at the attachment and see.... if the trader is successful or not.... he insists that he is still learning how to trade more proficiently.... :o

[Berti 10]

@ tams I'd ignore you if I could. You are derailing this discussion with your inane comments.

 

Just refocus this thread, I'm only looking for traders who have scalped the ES or another future for a year and have made at least 60k in net profit OR those who took every trade in larry's scalping room and can comment on the performance you had in relation to what they claim.

 

If anyone has scalp the ES for at least 1 year with only $5,000 account required and averaged even 5k per month (Larry's program claims 8k) with a 2 point stop then I'll both pay you for real money records and for mentoring. If you have achieved similar results, i.e came close, then I'd still be interested to speak with you and might also pay you for mentoring.

 

Only a very skilled trader will achieve this.

I don't think you will meet skilled, professional trader's in this forum. Here you find the famous 90% wannabe's, salespeople and some computer nerds who are good at programming (but we all know how difficult it is to program a profitable scalp system).

[Gibby 10]

I did take Larry's course based on with his bullshit records and started taking the trades live until I had lost enough real money to stop taking them after only 2 weeks. The program even had a guarantee that they could make the $2K cost of the program over the two months or the money would be refunded. In the last week of the course they got lucky on a couple of oversized trades obviously trying to get out of the big refund issue they were facing, and barely squeeked by. It was the worst program I have taken in 8 years of trading, bar none. Stay far away from his crap.

[jtinc 10]

I for one would like to see some answers to the original questions. Whether light65536 is legit is a moot point. What i am looking for is responses to the questions posed.

Thank you

[Gibby 10]

Eminis Risk Disclosure and Disclaimer is a link for somebody to go and prove or disprove their supposed 9 month track record. I have no affiliation and am not a member, but it is one the better posted records I have come across in my travels for what it may be worth.

[noego 10]

First, let me start by stating that I'm a *very* successful trader. I am already more successful by measurable means then most.

 

I honestly, think, it would be difficult to trade the ES for a living with even 100k. Most everything has told me one needs around 300k to trade for a living

 

a trader who claims that he/she is a successful trader need to, imho, already know answers to those two above questions/statements.... shouldn't he/she....?

 

in terms of reality, if you think that you are already a very successful trader.... great, congrats, more power to you....

 

mind you, there are miles and miles of significant differences between posting on c2 and trading live....; similarly there are also significant differences between backtesting and trading live signal.... they are altogether mutually exclusive....

 

if and when you already learn the ins and outs of trading real time and live.... you surely do not need 300k nor even 100k.... in your trading acct to trade profitably....

 

for those who are just learning how to trade.... not necessarily learning how to trade profitably and consistently yet.... these two concepts and practices are also significantly different.... as well....

 

another misconception about what a trader should receive in return at the end of the trading session, some say they expect 200 usd per day, some prefer 300 usd per day, some 500 usd per session.... so on and so forth.... of course, most of these questions are raised by not yet experienced traders.... for an experienced trader, he/she would take whatever the market would give for that particular session.... no more and no less.

 

another factor directly relates to the amount that one can expect as profit at the end of a trading session is.... what the trader puts at risk when he/she trades.... if you only trade one contract at a time, it is very difficult but not entirely impossible to take home 500 usd profit.... at the end of the trading session.... :missy:

 

if you have time, pls take a look at the attachment and see.... if the trader is successful or not.... he insists that he is still learning how to trade more proficiently.... :o

 

Well said...I made an abbreviated attempt to say the same thing above. The questions alone are enough to expose the inexperience. Now for the amounts. Yes it can be done ($5-10k is a stretch) but 100-300k is not necessary for the average person. Some start with that when learning and quickly get to trade with much less ....If you don't need a huge amount of monthly income (Huge is a relative term of course) you can successfully trade the futures markets with much less than the 100-300k. But you must know who you are as a trader and have an edge of some kind and unflinching discipline. That and real time LIVE market experience (thousands of hours of "forward testing"....that is predicting price action before the bars are there rather than reading the chart from right to left after the fact). Absent of those critical pieces, it does not matter what you have in your account. It probably won't be enough. A room with a true mentor type moderator will help you shave some of the time....a "system" being sold by anyone will seldom bear fruit. As I said in a previous post...every trader is different with varying degrees of skill, resources, and discipline. Find a simple approach, learn and trade one market and you have a shot.

[Predictor 11]

Sorry, if I'm mistaken but this looks exactly like vendor crap . This is not a third party record. It is also not a real money record. It is a hypothetical record which means little.

 

Let me explain why the third party auditing is important. First, hypothetical can be backtested or it can also be using a simulator that is setup to make it easy to produce fake results. It is also easy to fake a record, i.e hide losing trades or claim they weren't called. Third party auditing is based on real-time analysis gives you every trade and allows one to factor in realistic costs.

 

A hypothetical record doesn't mean anything unless it is audited by a third party or is accompanied with real money results. A hypothetical third party record, while not ensuring future results, clearly defines past results. A lot of people have lost money @ C2 by following poor developed systems, sure.

 

"Third party" means I don't have any control over what C2 reports as my trades. I can't try to gloss over a bad call. Each trade is recorded: entry and exit and the risk taken on the trade. The auditing party also determines the rules, often realistic to semi-realistic, for the fill engine.

 

If a vendor is producing the record then there is a greater incentive and capability to tweak the results to look better then they would be in real-life. Especially important, is the per trade profit -- when it is very low then a very strong return, say 200% or 300% per year could end up being a -200% per year! So, it is obvious why they don't want to trade such methods and lose all their money. But, they are happy to make it appear the methods are hugely profitable.

 

I have similar records that tradingadvantage sent to me. There are no trades shown. Only the points per month and it says "hypothetical". Guess what, if you have a real money record then you don't have to say hypothetical!! Also, you should look for a vendor that takes every trade with real money. If they aren't willing to take every trade in the room with real money then why should you?!

 

I want to also clue you guys in: the big vendors will never admit to such transparency because it would be terrible for them. Some are losing money consistently and many more are only break even or marginally profitable. I'm sure there are a few gamblers too: big wins and big losses but no real consistency.

 

Think about this, if you really made huge money in the markets, wouldn't you do everything possible to get your real money results out there? A lot of these guys, i.e Carter & Senters, work very hard to sell their spill. They are extremely motivated and driven to sell crap. It is inconceivable they would let such a sales tool go unused if it would make them look good.

 

I've heard from 1 person who took traded in Levine's room: thanks. His results were very poor. I've heard from a lot of people clearly writing about things they want to believe rather then what they know and did. Does it make you wonder why I get attacked? It is because I'm coming in and tearing down their false hopes and dreams. If it wasn't me then it would be the market.. and the market isn't as nice about it.

 

Look forward to more people who actually took every trade in Levine's scalping room (or as best as possible). How did it compare to their 8k hypothetical results? One suspicious part about their record is just the pure winning months %. They only had 1 losing month out of 12. Such highly consistent returns are very suspect, as well and was one flag that gave madoff away.

 

Eminis Risk Disclosure and Disclaimer is a link for somebody to go and prove or disprove their supposed 9 month track record. I have no affiliation and am not a member, but it is one the better posted records I have come across in my travels for what it may be worth.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Predictor

[jackb 10]

"Does it make you wonder why I get attacked? It is because I'm coming in and tearing down their false hopes and dreams." - Light65536

 

No, it's because you were duplicitous with your initial post. If what you really cared about was Levin's purported track record, you should have left off the completely unrelated self-serving comment about being a "very" successful trader. You then make a complete fool of yourself by stating you have only been trading with real money since April. Earning the moniker of "successful trader" requires decades of trading...entirely with real money.

 

You have brought this all upon yourself...and deservedly so. And you're not even mature enough to show some humility.

[Tams 20]

Dear light56646,

You have certainly started this thread on the wrong foot. Theres a girl on this forum called steve who shows the same humble approach.

Tam thinks you are a snake oil salesman ...

 

bobcollett

 

You did not get to see his out-of-this-world spam links.

This guy is a pro, he calls himself the market predictor,

with multiple websites and a following of profitable students.

I don't know what they would think if they found out that all the profits were only hypethetical,

and that he couldn't even make a living trading.

 

Needless to say, the links were promptly deleted by the moderator.

[Predictor 11]

@jackb And, I did that to avoid all the people trying to tell me how to trade, how to read a book and go do it.. all the things I'm getting here! It didn't work.

 

I will tell you something, I am the most OPEN trader of anyone around. I guarantee you that most traders whether it is was with SIMULATOR or real money can not produce my returns!! Not for 6 months or a year.. I know this because my systems are top ranked out of all the thousands people have tried to make. And they try very hard, too. So, yes I am a successful trader by QUANTITATIVE measures. Against anything I can measure it too. Am I successful compared to people anonymous people on a board or compared to vendors who let you dream up the returns? Who cares. It can't be measured.

 

Why do you think everyone is so upset that I'm so frank about things? That I'm so honest.. because everyone is running around losing money and not wanting to admit it. Everyone is running around and afraid to realize the Emperor has no clothes!

 

Sure, maybe you did great on a simulator. Did you ever reset it? Start over? I can't do that with my record! Try to do what I did for # months I've did.. lets see how easy it is!! Maybe you did with real money but gave it all back.. Whatever i do is on my record.. good or bad and for anyone to see. No resetting. No lies. No "I don't predict the market.. I just scalp". This was another trick that Senters used, the "I don't predict market.. I just scalp". My thought was, "okay if true then why bother with the worthless analysis?"

 

Anyway, I'm about ready to say this is settled. We've not heard from a single person stating they do these returns or vouching that they took every trade in the room and did these returns. We had a few first time posters telling me to go sign up with them. The reports from people who had tried their service were terrible.

 

I'll leave it open. Maybe we will hear from some scalpers eventually or for from more people who took every trade with real money in the Larry Levines scalping room. Please speak up!

 

Any full time scalpers in crude or 6e here? Looking forward to hearing what type of returns you've experience and what size account you did it with.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Predictor

[Gibby 10]

Many rooms let you in to experience their trading rooms and methodology without paying a dime so that you can test drive things for a week or two which gives you a pretty good idea if it works and if it works for YOU. Not many places let you into their live trading room and talk to their students about their daily and weekly results. Not many rooms post on their blog about student-stated results? How many rooms post their records of trades called in front of live students who could then refute the posted trading record? There is more than one way to "audit" results and none beats being there yourself ,or someone you know being there to verify that they post what is called. YOU are the ultimate verification of anything that works for YOU anyway. No two traders are ever gonna get the "posted", "official", "audited" results of any trading system, signal or even auto-traded program due to various reasons. Only YOU can make anything work for YOU and sometimes YOU can make it work better than the original system designer. And YOU won't know anything until YOU get in there and get YOUR hands dirty. The rest is just nonsense and time-wasting jabber. Verification from anyone else that it worked for them is relatively worthless. And unfortunately that is why this indrustry can contiinue to turn out worthless crap. YOU gotta pays YOUR money and takes YOUR chance.

[Gibby 10]

Forgot to mention that many of the room trials are low or no cost, and if they offer a full money back guarantee, they have at least a chance of being legit without any risk if payment is made to one of the bigger payment processors. So jump in and see if the suit fits and quit waiting for someone else to do it for you.

No free trial for at least a week and preferably two, has scam written all over it IMHO. Go ask Larry what he gives away for free....lol

[Predictor 11]

BTW here is a good consideration..

 

Imagine you work for Levine as a sales rep. How much you think they make? I imagine they don't make a ton! Maybe some do.. But, the point is now let's say you find out that he has a room that generates 8k per month on only 5k accounts -- that's 96k per year.

 

What do you suspect you'd do? Hell, if I were you'd quit as soon as I got the money to go the room and go to room and make 100k per year. After 3 months you'd had 15k, you could do 200k your first year.

 

What they will say is.. but you're not expected to just blindly follow the room. blah blah.. I tell you 2 things:

 

#1 I consider myself one among the best in world at calling the market.

#2 If it really worked I would blatantly take every trade without thinking and without any ego. That's saying something!!

 

Some people will say "but what's wrong with this?" What's wrong with it is that its a lie. They are using that to get peoples money and its not true. People are spending thousands of dollars because of a lie. It is just like the con trick that the cold readers play on people. As James Randi would say, its not just harmless fun. It has potential to be very damaging. It is also detracts from what people who are actually achieving in the markets manage to do.

 

More over, as some people didn't focus on: I'm already very successful. There is no greater ill then to waste my time. If the claims are true then I would need to refocus my trading and consider more angles. I would be required to consider such a style because my capital base is low. If the claims, as likely, are false and lies then it would be a huge cost and a waste of my time.

 

@Gibby

 

It is actually very common for trading rooms to post unrealistic results. I have a whole list that to do that. It is also very common for scam trading rooms to offer a free or low cost trial. Many use the revenue from low cost trial as part of their business model.

 

It would be very difficult to validate trades made in a trading room unless the signals were sent automated to you and filled by you in a live account. I know this because I was in a trading room for a time. I didn't know what the hell he was doing! He would say "if bullish go long here or for a scalp go short... "

 

The only trading room I"d ever consider would have to send me the trades via an automated platform, which is very possible. 1 Vendor actually has something called "signal box" that does. There are also brokers that offer this. I think CQG offers this option for gurus too.

 

It is not hard to do these things contrary to what they want people to believe

Edited July 13, 2011 by Predictor

[noego 10]

BTW here is a good consideration..

 

Imagine you work for Levine as a sales rep. How much you think they make? I imagine they don't make a ton! Maybe some do.. But, the point is now let's say you find out that he has a room that generates 8k per month on only 5k accounts -- that's 96k per year.

 

What do you suspect you'd do? Hell, if I were you'd quit as soon as I got the money to go the room and go to room and make 100k per year. After 3 months you'd had 15k, you could do 200k your first year.

 

What they will say is.. but you're not expected to just blindly follow the room. blah blah.. I tell you 2 things:

 

#1 I consider myself one among the best in world at calling the market.

#2 If it really worked I would blatantly take every trade without thinking and without any ego. That's saying something!!

 

Some people will say "but what's wrong with this?" What's wrong with it is that its a lie. They are using that to get peoples money and its not true. People are spending thousands of dollars because of a lie. It is just like the con trick that the cold readers play on people. As James Randi would say, its not just harmless fun. It has potential to be very damaging. It is also detracts from what people who are actually achieving in the markets manage to do.

 

More over, as some people didn't focus on: I'm already very successful. There is no greater ill then to waste my time. If the claims are true then I would need to refocus my trading and consider more angles. I would be required to consider such a style because my capital base is low. If the claims, as likely, are false and lies then it would be a huge cost and a waste of my time.

 

Dude...you are a trip. If you spent half as much time working on watching the market and learning as you do trying to run others down you might be able to answer the questions yourself. I don't know the room of which you speak but I hope he doesn't have the pleasure of having you in the room. As a moderator myself, I find the blame game by inexperienced/poorly disciplined traders to be disgusting at best. You are responsible for your trading decisions. No one can make you a great trader. Period. Grow a pair and do your own work and then produce your results for the world to see. It would carry more weight than the "I am a very successful trader" garbage.

[Gibby 10]

The ultimate test for any trading room anyway is this. Is the trade called out in advance? Can I get filled at very close to the entry price without much, if any slippage? Is the target and stop loss given? Can the trade management strategy mechanical enough to be semi-automated. In short, are the trades calls duplicable enough that if I follow them to the T, I can get most of the posted results? If the answer is yes, then you're good to go. And if they also teach you how to fish, so much the better. Not much else matters, other than the cost, and if its monthly without any big upfront cost, bingo!

[Predictor 11]

@noego unlike 99% of the traders around.. my work is open for anyone to see.

 

Why do you think I attracted so much negative energy? Because I've came between people and their dreams. Do you know what an immortality project is? Do you know why people kill themselves for certain beliefs?

 

I've tapped directly into this negative energy. I didn't do it on purpose . I was just trying to get some facts to make a decision. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not want to see that the dream they desire is likely based on illusory claims. And, I'm not saying that everyone here can't be a hugely successful trader, it is undeniable it is unlikely to be as some expect it to be, though.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death

 

Hoping to hear from some scalpers.. trust me I'm not about tearing anyone down. If you knew me you'd know that I love and am very dedicated to study the market. Trust me, I was hoping it was very possible and that there I'd get a flood of people who were making 120k from 5k. While... I knew it wasn't true, sure I wanted to believe it was.

 

Also, as it is clear that Levine's staff have read this thread. Do you provide a real money record for Dan's trading room? Does Dan take every single trade in the room with real money? If not then why not? Why do you encourage your students too, if he wont? Look forward to official response. If he does, how close are the hypothetical results to the real returns?

Edited July 13, 2011 by Predictor

[jdevron 10]

among the best in world at calling the market[/b]

 

Dear light65536,

 

If you are "among the best in world at calling the market" then why do you still work at a regular 9 to 5 job? Am I to infer that even "the best in world at calling the market" can't make a living trading? The folks trading at my prop shop will be disapointed to find out they should be instead working a 9 to 5 like you. But then I guess they aren't as good as you and haven't figured that out yet.

 

Furthermore, your post inquiring about Larry Levin's track record seem disingenuous at best. It appears that your actual intent is to attempt to promote subscribership to your own C2 account. However, it appears that effort has failed miserably. Please consider to go back to the previous forum from where you came. This forum is for people seeking to contribute to the community, not for duplicitous braggarts with dubious trading results.

 

With Kind Regards,

Happy Trader

[Predictor 11]

@jdevron

 

Yes, I am among the best at calling the market. I do consider that I may be the best in the world on the time frame that I can call it. I haven't met or seen anyone else who can do what I can. I have heard stories, so I know it is possible.

 

I don't know any about your prop firm but prop firms have very specific types of models for generating revenue and don't typically predict the market in advance up to 1-2 days like I do. I am well versed in how prop funds operate.

 

If you are to imply that just because I have superior ability that it infers I would easily get a job. This is not realistic. I knew a lot of brilliant programmers growing up and many didn't have a job. They did open source. I was in the top 20% of programmers for years before I was able to get a job and when I finally got into the field, I was surprised I was among the best. Getting a job is more about meeting the requirements, take this from someone who met all requirements for working at Microsoft, one of the most challenging places to get into for a technical person (not a manager).

 

My trading time frame (time to hold) is closer to hedge funds. The best hedge funds require at least 500 million under management over 5 years before they will even consider you. The "lowest people" hired are Phd's with skills in specific areas.

 

As for prop firms, there aren't many legit of those out there either. One very open "prop firm" owner is Don Bright of Bright Trading. They focus on pairs trading. He makes it very clear that his methods require at least a million in buying power. Other prop firms rely on execution advantages or use HFT.

 

If you look at my C2 systems, on my discretionary system I am not even seeking subscribers because it isn't worth it to me. I only use that for advertising to potential and serious high net work investors and tracking and auditing my results -- something any serious trader will understand. I would disable subscribers on this one but then it disappears. I only take subscribers on my mechanical system.

 

Jdevron, just because you work at a prop firm, you should not assume you have superior skills over another trader. They may be doing something different then you are and may indeed be superior. Likewise, I'm sure there are position traders who have specific skills that I don't have. I am always careful to use my language precisely so as to make it clear that I'm referring to selective and specific cases when I refer to my ability, i.e it is not an ability in general. Likewise, it is not unlikely that some strategies that prop firms use rely on advantages that don't exist to retail traders. In fact, this is a large purpose of the prop model, to generate advantages over the retail sphere. It therefore does not conclude that a successful prop trader would be successful in trading a small retail account.

 

This is why I am asking about scalping because I don't scalp or know anything about. Thanks. Nobody yet has came forth with a claim.

 

In fact, it seems that the people here are rather nasty and would prefer rather to attack me then think logically. Actually, do you know that there are more people who've made millions in the market who can't trade then those who can! Yes, this is true. Why do you think that is? Have you considered it? It is worthwhile to consider as it is a fundamental element of capitalism and leads to the wealthy and class distinction. You want to read Ace on The River, Felix Dennis, or read about how the Charlotte Hornets became to be.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Predictor

[see3d 10]

Well, I believe you are sincerely seeking more information. You went about it the wrong way, but I will just take that as a sign of inexperience.

 

I took a couple of days for free in LL's daytime trading room. One with a salesperson in my ear the whole time, and by request, one completely on my own. Nothing to write home about. I traded live, and lost a few ticks one day and made a few the next. I also get LL's emails every day, and have subscribed to some of his cheap stuff, free setups, and know all his setups (except MP) from another source. I watch his results every day. It looks to me like -- once you subtract the commissions (which he never does), that most days he reports as small winners would actually be losers. However, during large trend days, If he manages to catch the trend, he can rack up a lot of points. Those are the only times that look profitable to me. So IMHO, most of the time is a lot of false starts, trying to not lose money while trying to catch a big swing to ride. The night session MP course is a different animal with which I have no experience.

 

To answer your $5K question, yes, it is possible, but only if you go about it the right way. I qualify this by stating that I am still an ES scalping student, and have been for several years with a few different mentors. I have gone from losing a lot, to losing a little, to holding my own. I keep progressing, but it takes a lot of time, commitment, and learning to control that most important trading tool located between the ears. If I had started with my current mentor from day one, I would be years ahead at this point.

 

I do know a number of ES scalpers that trade for a living and have for many years. I converse with them daily and know most of their technical setups (they would not frequent a site like this, as they have no need to, neither do I for that matter, but I am a curious sort and like to poke around now and then for the hidden gem).

 

So, to get on with your question, assuming you have mastered the skills and your emotions to have a decent edge, you have to use compounding. If it were me, I would not trade more than 1 contract with only $5K. That actually makes it harder to win though, because you can't use multiple contracts with a money management scheme to improve your odds of success. If you are good enough to win most trades, and you have tight stop rules, 2 contracts are possible. That is probably the least number you want to trade to have some rudimentary money management. Trading with more contracts than that is just asking to blow up your account in short order before you have mastered scalping skills. Figure on staying on paper trades for 3-9 months for skill development, then at least another 2 months to get over the emotional shocks of trading live. Scalping ES is one of the harder things to do as a trader because the competition is tough and the emotions are intense to start with. So, if you have all that down, then you need to plow all your winnings back into your account to get it up to about $25K. If you average 1% per trading day, then that will take about 9 months. If you are successful at that, then you have a bit more of a cushion and can start to take out money each month to live on. At 1% per trading day, that is $60K per year on a $25K account. It should be possible to make a living scalping 4-8 contracts.

 

One trader I know uses $3K in the account per contract traded. Another keeps a very small account size and a margin of only $500 per contract, but he scalps for 3-8 ticks and positions himself to stop out with a tick or at most a few tick loss. He takes many trades a day on a small number of contracts. His trades last a few minutes. My trades are also generally under 10 minutes in a position, though today I stayed in one position for 37 minutes on a longer swing down. I would have done better if I stayed in fro 90 minutes… LOL It just depends on what kind of trading day it is. Some days I wait all morning for a setup I like and it never comes, or I don't get filled. You just have to take what the market offers.

 

I hope you find this information useful, but I wrote it for anyone curious about this topic.

 

FWIW, I wrote a detailed review on this site about my experiences with my current (and best) mentor in response to someone else's questions about my mentor a while back. You can search for it if you are interested. There are a few good ones, but most are not cheap. Getting the right mentor can shave years off the learning curve for scalping ES. Getting the wrong mentor can drain you wallet and have you swearing off trading forever. Most are in the latter category.

 

Good luck.