Scalping ES for a Living

[Predictor 11]

I see the previous thread here. First, let me start by stating that I'm a *very* successful trader. I am already more successful by measurable means then most. I have 2 of the top ranked futures systems at C2 greater then 6 months old (one discretionary and one quantitative). I've been over there at that other trading forum. However, I'm thinking of moving here because there doesn't seem to be a lot of quality posting going on over there.

 

I have 2 questions. Please read them carefully.

 

1. Has anyone taken every trade in Larry Levines trading room with eral money and do the results match the hypothetical results they send out? I seen what happened to the other thread about his program. Please do not share your experience unless you have taken every trade with real money for at least 1 month (or as close as possible).

 

2. They claim they do around 5k NET per month with only 5k in the account trading 1-3 ES contracts with a max stop of 2 points. They actually average around 7-8k month net. I do not believe that is possible. They claimed over 100k profits last year trading 1-3 contracts. They sent me an Excel file but no real money track record. If anyone here can do that with 5k account and produce real money track results for at least 1 year then I'd be willing to do 2 things: A. Pay you and B. Pay you for mentoring. Again, let me be frank I do not believe that it is possible. I, also, offering mentoring and trade the ES nearly exclusively on hypothetical account. I take proxy trades with rea money at NADEX since April -- for every trade I place. I have very strong returns but nothing like that. The average trade profit is around $20 per trade they claim. This is very low.

 

I honestly, think, it would be difficult to trade the ES for a living with even 100k. Most everything has told me one needs around 300k to trade for a living.

Edited July 12, 2011 by MadMarketScientist
urls removed

[Tams 20]

I see the previous thread here. First, let me start by stating that I'm a *very* successful trader.....

 

 

I found most successful traders do not have a need to tell people so.

people can figure that out from the substance they talk.

[Predictor 11]

I am only looking for replies to this thread from people who have did the performance I'm inquiring -- not those who believe it is possible or have did well for themselves but not that well.

The purpose of this thread is very specific. Only reply if

 

A. You scalp the ES or another future for a living. Please let me know what account size you think is required. I mean for a living: it is your primary income -- at least 50k per year.

B. You scalp ES with 2 point stop and 5k in account and make 50k+ per year.

C. You've taken every trade in this room (or most every trade) with a real money account, i.e Larry's Room

 

Do not reply with advice on trading or comments or thoughts about what you think is possible.

 

 

I found most successful traders do not have a need to tell people so.

people can figure that out from the substance they talk.

[Tams 20]

I am only looking for replies to this thread from people who have did the performance I'm inquiring -- not those who believe it is possible or have did well for themselves but not that well.

The purpose of this thread is very specific. Only reply if

 

A. You scalp the ES or another future for a living. Please let me know what account size you think is required. I mean for a living: it is your primary income -- at least 50k per year.

B. You scalp ES with 2 point stop and 5k in account and make 50k+ per year.

C. You've taken every trade in this room (or most every trade) with a real money account, i.e Larry's Room

 

Do not reply with advice on trading or comments or thoughts about what you think is possible.

 

then I do not understand why you would need to post links to your blog or the promote your service? You could simply ask the questions without spamming or denigrating your competitor.

[Predictor 11]

Sorry, I am not denigrating and do not consider this service my competitor. They have millions of dollars and a "real business". I'm just a market predictor aka a "market fool". I do put my services out there because I feel offer a lot more then most other vendors (i.e a realistic track record of out performance that one can check, even if (partially) hypothetical).

 

I mainly put that in there because at another forum, I posted the same question and receive many people talking about trading methods, etc. It was clear that they were trying to help a novice. But, they weren't speaking from first experience knowledge.

 

To be honest, I do not respect most vendors because it is clear they are ONLY capable of selling worthless crap. I have a whole list of big million dollar vendors that weren't able to trade way out of paper bag.. and the beginners always get suckered by these people. While I could provide them a real background that could lead to a more then modest success in the markets. But, I am in no way denigrating this vendor. In fact, if they can provide a real money track record of calls that backs up what they sent me as their room calls then I will make a concerted effort to take their training.

 

then I do not understand why you would need to post links to your blog or the promote your service? You could simply ask the questions without spamming or denigrating your competitor.

[Tams 20]

Sorry, I am not denigrating and do not consider this service my competitor. They have millions of dollars and a "real business". I'm just a market predictor aka a "market fool". I do put my services out there because I feel offer a lot more then most other vendors (i.e a realistic track record of out performance that one can check, even if (partially) hypothetical).

 

I mainly put that in there because at another forum, I posted the same question and receive many people talking about trading methods, etc. It was clear that they were trying to help a novice. But, they weren't speaking from first experience knowledge.

 

To be honest, I do not respect most vendors because it is clear they are ONLY capable of selling worthless crap. I have a whole list of big million dollar vendors that weren't able to trade way out of paper bag.. and the beginners always get suckered by these people. While I could provide them a real background that could lead to a more then modest success in the markets. But, I am in no way denigrating this vendor. In fact, if they can provide a real money track record of calls that backs up what they sent me as their room calls then I will make a concerted effort to take their training.

 

then why do you see it acceptable to talk down on them and boast about yourself in the same sentence?

[Predictor 11]

@tams you seem just to be argumentative. Who are you referring to by "them"? You mean a certain vendor where the CFTC/NFA found they were losing for 12 or 13 years -- never had a winning year --- or the big options training company that were fined because their instructors made millions and didn't trade for a living? Wait, didn't trade at all!!

 

If by "them" you mean snakeoil salesmen, sure I talk down to them like the slugs they are. What is the difference between "them" and me? 3 things: 1. have real trading skills, 2. I'm honest, and 3. I do provide evidence to support my claims.

 

If by "them" you mean Larry Levine, I have not determined what category he belongs in. I know a student who is very happy with their program which is how I learned about it. It has certainly worked for him. However, I will remain, more then rightfully, skeptical until they provide me sufficient evidence that their claims deserve merit.

 

One important consideration is I already have considerable success with my systems. I have systems that can return 100% per year (provided they continue to work). So, I'm not looking for basic training. I'm evaluating them on the ability to far outdo anything my current methods can do, i.e based on their claims.

 

It is just like the market. The market judges you on what you claim. That's all I'm doing.

 

Note, I'm not making any specific claims against any vendor. But, if you do enough research you'll find that many of the big name vendors/promoters were indeed completely fake. I would guess that the majority of educators out there promoting to teach day trading are total fakes: i.e they aren't consistently profitable, aren't consistently beating the market, etc. Many are trading on simulator which is fine if they admit to such and also take into account realistic commission and slippage (as I do, they don't) and audit the record (they don't). The few that are trading real accounts are for sure bleeding them as fast as they can get gullible subscriber money or only break even. And then there are a very few who are really successful.. a very few and I suspect none of the big name promoters.

 

http://www.nfa.futures.org/basicnet/Case.aspx?entityid=0289721&case=00-14&contrib=CFTC

 

then why do you see it acceptable to talk down on them and boast about yourself in the same sentence?

Edited July 12, 2011 by Predictor

[Tams 20]

@tams you seem just to be argumentative. Who are you referring to by "them"? You mean Rs of Houston where the CFTC/NFA found they were losing for 12 or 13 years -- never had a winning year --- or the big options training company that were fined because their instructors made millions and didn't trade for a living? Wait, didn't trade at all!!

 

If by "them" you mean snakeoil salesmen, sure I talk down to them like the slugs they are. What is the difference between "them" and me? 3 things: 1. have real trading skills, 2. I'm honest, and 3. I do provide evidence to support my claims.

 

If by "them" you mean Larry Levine, I have not determined what category he belongs in. I know a student who is very happy with their program which is how I learned about it. It has certainly worked for him. However, I will remain, more then rightfully, skeptical until they provide me sufficient evidence that their claims deserve merit.

 

One important consideration is I already have considerable success with my systems. I have systems that can return 100% per year (provided they continue to work). So, I'm not looking for basic training. I'm evaluating them on the ability to far outdo anything my current methods can do, i.e based on their claims.

 

It is just like the market. The market judges you on what you claim. That's all I'm doing.

 

Note, I'm not making any specific claims against ANY vendor. But, I've read to that extent. You'll have to verify it!!

 

 

I think you are just another snake oil salesman using the questions as disguise to spam the forum.

 

If you are so successful, why don't you become a paid sponsor of this board?

Maybe you can't afford the fees?

[Predictor 11]

No, I couldn't afford the fees. Have you seen my other posts? I trade very small contracts and a tiny account. Does the fact I couldn't afford the fees mean that what I offer is more valuable then what promoters offer? Do they have an audited third party hypothetical track record? Do they claim to take every trade with at least some money on the line? (I do -- it is not a claim but I do since April.)

 

Let me add also, I do not have any mentor students. I put that out there because I feel I can offer more then others. I have a few people who've bought my reports and have been satisfied with them. I've only sold a very few copies. I am not a big time promoter nor do I claim to trade for a living. I work a regular 9 to 5. I do however consider myself one of the best in the world at calling the market, i.e making quantified predictions. I'm "okay" at trading and always learning.

 

I've been successful on the simulator with many styles of trading including day trading (as defined by not holding overnight). However, I've not been successful at scalping. I've not been successful to the degree that I could take a 5k account and average 8k per month with a 2 point stop which is what they are claiming.

 

I have systems that can return maybe 120% per year on minimum capital with high risk. I feel I can do 30% return at 1:1 and better risk/reward. These are just goals of mine I felt I can meet. Maybe at the limit, a 300%-500% return on minimum capital might be possible. Even that would be a far cry what their claims.. let's see 300% = 21k on a 7k account or only 1.75k-3k per month!

Edited July 12, 2011 by Predictor

[Tams 20]

No, I couldn't afford the fees. Have you seen my other posts? I trade very small contracts and a tiny account. Does the fact I couldn't afford the fees mean that what I offer is more valuable then what promoters offer? Do they have an audited third party hypothetical track record? Do they claim to take every trade with at least some money on the line? (I do -- it is not a claim but I do since April.)

 

Let me add also, I do not have any mentor students. I put that out there because I feel I can offer more then others. I have a few people who've bought my reports and have been satisfied with them. I've only sold a very few copies. I am not a big time promoter nor do I claim to trade for a living. I work a regular 9 to 5.

 

you seem to think an audited third party hypothetical track record is important ???

why do you think so?

[Predictor 11]

Not important, it is all that matters -- either an audited third party track record or a real money track record. A sim record provided by company that shows $20/trade per profit could be losing 100% of the account if the slippage isn't set realistically or it might be break even. There is no way to validate it.

 

This is not to say that vendors don't lie (see the link above). But, most of them don't want to get in trouble so they are careful to preface it with simulated returns.

 

Also, there is no reason that a company that has a million and claim to return 120k on 5k margin couldn't easily take 5k and produce a real money track record.

 

How am I know to know if the content is worthwhile? Some kid may setup a website and honestly think he has a great method and tell me I should spend my time to learn.. turns out it isn't as profitable as what I already know -- I've wasted my time.

 

It is not just about the lies but also there is no other way for me to even know if the methods are suitable for me!

 

So, beyond novice training which can be learned for free or cheaply, I think that vendors should be very clear about what they are offering.

 

One vendor, Hubert Senters, is pretty slick about how he does it. He doesn't make any claims about his methods but he talks about how he made a fortune in the market. The implication is this is what they are doing. This is a really nice slickster trick... it allows you to imagine the great returns you can make!!

 

They (the vendors) cant tell you because well you know you're just beginning. Right They don't want to tell you because they know you wouldnt buy their courses to return less then the market!! They'll either say well it'd make you feel bad or you can't compare yourself to the gurus. BS!! Showing results is the strongest sales tool possible. So, they would for sure show them. But then they say we can't.. its against the rules!! More BS.. it is only against the rules if the results are simulated. If they are real money then they can for sure show them and treat them as real money.

 

 

 

 

you seem to think an audited third party hypothetical track record is important ???

Edited July 12, 2011 by Predictor

[Tams 20]

Not important, it is all that matters -- either an audited third party track record or a real money track record. A sim record provided by company that shows $20/trade per profit could be losing 100% of the account if the slippage isn't set realistically or it might be break even. There is no way to validate it.

 

This is not to say that vendors don't lie (see the link above). But, most of them don't want to get in trouble so they are careful to preface it with simulated returns.

 

Also, there is no reason that a company that has a million and claim to return 120k on 5k margin couldn't easily take 5k and produce a real money track record.

 

How am I know to know if the content is worthwhile? Some kid may setup a website and honestly think he has a great method and tell me I should spend my time to learn.. turns out it isn't as profitable as what I already know -- I've wasted my time.

 

It is not just about the lies but also there is no other way for me to even know if the methods are suitable for me!

 

So, beyond novice training which can be learned for free or cheaply, I think that vendors should be very clear about what they are offering.

 

One vendor, Hubert Senters, is pretty slick about how he does it. He doesn't make any claims about his methods but he talks about how he made a fortune in the market. The implication is this is what they are doing. This is a really nice slickster trick... it allows you to imagine the great returns you can make!!

 

They (the vendors) cant tell you because well you know you're just beginning. Right They don't want to tell you because they know you wouldnt buy their courses to return less then the market!! They'll either say well it'd make you feel bad or you can't compare yourself to the gurus. BS!! Showing results is the strongest sales tool possible. So, they would for sure show them. But then they say we can't.. its against the rules!! More BS.. it is only against the rules if the results are simulated. If they are real money then they can for sure show them and treat them as real money.

 

You are talking down on your competitor again, while extolling your own virtues.

If you are to earn any respect, you have to break this habit. This is not an acceptable behavior of grown adults.

[Predictor 11]

@tams you win.. one lesson in successful gambling/trading is you can't win every fight.

 

Now, can we hear from the real scalpers here? I've seen a promoter/trader here with a tagline to his site. I'd like to hear from you. You trade the 6E and ES. TimRacette? I'd like to get your thoughts on these claims average 8k per month on a 5k account with 2 point stop on every trade. Have you ever did this or know anyone who did ? Let me add the 8k was consistent, like every month.. not taking huge risks.

 

Let me preface it with most of the professional day traders I know claim 50% return is a good year and even 30% is good. That agreed with my own research.

[Tams 20]

@tams you win.. one lesson in successful gambling/trading is you can't win every fight.

 

Now, can we hear from the real scalpers here? I've seen a promoter/trader here with a tagline to his site. I'd like to hear from you. You trade the 6E and ES.

 

can you post your trades here live?

how good really are you?

how soon can you break out of the "small" trader mode?

[Predictor 11]

All of my trades are audited in real time by C2. I take every trade in my account with small proxy trades (see my other thread). I find that this format works better for auditing the trades because it is more accurate, doesn't leave anything to doubt.

 

I feel like I'm the best in the world at *what I do* which is predicting the market in advance. Returns anywhere from 30% to 150% per year are conceivable (or -30% to -50%) with my current methods.

 

>how soon can you break out of the "small" trader mode?

 

Not sure what you mean? I would need probably 60k start building toward trading for a living. I believe it is possible for me to return significantly more then 30% but only by taking real risks. It would only possible if I bet more when I'm confident and take some selective risks. It might be possible in the options market too where I could limit my risk better then futures or by going to a smaller time frame. It also depends on my market read and how well I'm functioning.

 

In my nadex account, fx in 6 months I return 50% on the model account.. I actually return 150% on the margin ($1500 at peak). But, I'm probably on the limit of leverage. It is not something I can maintain unless I use confidence based betting and also am careful not to take trades that have less then say 1 point profit.

[Tams 20]

All of my trades are audited in real time by C2. I take every trade in my account with small proxy trades (see my other thread). I find that this format works better for auditing the trades because it is more accurate, doesn't leave anything to doubt.

 

I feel like I'm the best in the world at *what I do* which is predicting the market in advance. Returns anywhere from 30% to 150% per year are conceivable (or -30% to -50%) with my current methods.

 

>how soon can you break out of the "small" trader mode?

 

Not sure what you mean? I would need probably 60k start building toward trading for a living. I believe it is possible for me to return significantly more then 30% but only by taking real risks. It would only possible if I bet more when I'm confident and take some selective risks. It might be possible in the options market too where I could limit my risk better then futures or by going to a smaller time frame. It also depends on my market read and how well I'm functioning.

 

In my nadex account, fx in 6 months I return 50% on the model account.. I actually return 150% on the margin ($1500 at peak). But, I'm probably on the limit of leverage. It is not something I can maintain unless I use confidence based betting and also am careful not to take trades that have less then say 1 point profit.

 

With the power of compounding, anybody with your "skill" can make a comfortable living starting with ONE contract.

Why are you begging here?

[Predictor 11]

Its a good question! I was honestly hoping I'd be wrong and there were people doing these returns. It is also a good question why I would even try to go outside what is working for me since the primary reason I trade is to serve and to get better at what I do best. It is a good question. One thing, is this was one style of trading that I could never get to work for me.Even though I trade to serve, I am also realistic and if there are methods doing 120k on 5k margin then I mean I should try to learn those methods. Plus I know there are many successful ways to trade in the markets. If it *were* possible then I could at least do that until the 100k mark.

 

One other thing is this nagging feeling that maybe shortening my holding time would be a good thing. I don't know but I've shortened from 2-3 days to 1 day. Sometimes it helps me and sometimes it hurts. I'm always trying to think about what is advantage of the small trader. I came up with 2 scenarios: A. Getting limits filled at hard places. B. Running markets at opportune times.

 

With the power of compounding, anybody with your "skill" can make a comfortable living starting with ONE contract.

Why are you begging here?

[noego 10]

I think you are just another snake oil salesman using the questions as disguise to spam the forum.

 

If you are so successful, why don't you become a paid sponsor of this board?

Maybe you can't afford the fees?

 

Agreed....this is not a discussion topic. A slam and promote. Dead Thread.

[WorldTrader 10]

Yes, he is posting his links and promoting his software...beware.

[Predictor 11]

Lol.. I don't have any software even.

 

I haven't heard from 1 scalper yet...

 

Yes, he is posting his links and promoting his software...beware.

[jdevron 10]

Lol.. I don't have any software even.

 

I haven't heard from 1 scalper yet...

 

 

The purpose of C2 and TL is mostly geared towards automated trading, but also includes discretionary trading as well. Larry Levin's own instructors will tell you right up front that their rules are not suitable for automated trading and strictly rely on discretionary decision making. If "your friend" is doing well under Larry's course it is because "your friend" has some inate ability that will not easily translate into programmed trading. Larry offers several variations of essentially two set of rules, the "algo" and the "80% rule". The "algo" is essentially a 20 period donchian channel that is confirmed by a volume imbalance. The "80% rule" simply predicts that prices will revert to their mean. After much backtesting of many such rules my personal opinion is that the "algo" is without merit and the "80% rule" has some merit. Also, I believe Larry's instructors are correct when they say their rules are not suitable for automated trading. My personal feeling is that the rules Larry provides for a fee could possibly be used in conjunction with another set of rules which has yet to be developed by anyone on the planet. On the bright side I do find Larry's contrarian style newsletters refreshing and informative.

[bobcollett 10]

Dear light56646,

You have certainly started this thread on the wrong foot. Theres a guy on this forum called steve who shows the same humble approach.

Tam thinks you are a snake oil salesman and he's a gentleman compared to his friend mighty mouse who is still sleeping..

To add some value to this thread I think you can scalp the Es with a 5k account, trading 1 contract at $50 and a $200 stop. You can make 20 scalps.But you mention somewhere that that you hold the trade for 2- 3 days. Thats not scalping. Thats Goldman Sachs trading.And you will need about 200k to survive.(for about 2 months)

Regards

bobcollett

[Minetoo 10]

I asked for a free trial of Larry's room years ago and was allowed in for a mere hour. The mod took a couple of trades that made no sense to me and subsequently lost on both. I think Larry himself is a successful trader but what he does on the floor has never been fully explained and I doubt it could be replicated on screen.

I used to work in a Prop Shop and all we did was scalp. Temperamentally, it was a bad fit for me so I quit to go on my own. Therefore his room holds no appeal for me however, I really do enjoy reading Levin's daily rants about the markets and the economy - very incisive and truthful.

[Predictor 11]

@bobcollett Avg hold is around 20 hours. You can see at C2: it does change. My old bread&butter was a 2-3 day trade. It tends to be around 20-30 hours.

 

My associate does not use the scalping he room. He is very satisfied but trades in using the MP room.

 

It is rumored that Levine made his money by arbitraging the big contract against the mini. Arbitrage is basically profiting from the bid/ask spread. Most pit traders profited by capturing the spread, many times per day.

 

Very interested in more first hand experience, i.e not what is rumored or what one hopes or thinks or dreams. Has anyone scalp the ES or other futures with a 5k account and made 100k per year? Has anyone scalp the futures and made 100k per year with any size account? What size was needed?

[Tams 20]

Dear light56646,

You have certainly started this thread on the wrong foot. Theres a girl on this forum called steve who shows the same humble approach.

Tam thinks you are a snake oil salesman and he's a gentleman compared to his friend mighty mouse who is still sleeping..

To add some value to this thread I think you can scalp the Es with a 5k account, trading 1 contract at $50 and a $200 stop. You can make 20 scalps.But you mention somewhere that that you hold the trade for 2- 3 days. Thats not scalping. Thats Goldman Sachs trading.And you will need about 200k to survive.(for about 2 months)

Regards

bobcollett

 

on my second thought, I think someone is delusional schizophrenic. (you, me, 46, him, them, or whoever)

anybody who lives by an audited third party hypothetical track record needs to be committed.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Tams