Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

NOptionsGuru

Pattern Day Trading Rule

Recommended Posts

So I just sent the following letter to the SEC regarding my thoughts to the Pattern Day Trading rule. I seriously doubt that anything will come of it, but after watching Visa today spike and not be able to take advantage of any of the movement due to this ridiculous rule, I needed to vent my frustration to the source. This isn't the first time I've missed out on momentum plays because of this rule and I'm sure it won't be my last. I am open to any thoughts and comments you all might have on this subject as well. Sit down and set a few minutes aside... it's a read.

 

To whom this may concern:

 

I am a small trader who is absolutely fed up with the Pattern Day Trading rule. There have been many occasions where I could not take advantage of momentum movements in stocks due to this rule.

 

I am not trying to knock the cover off the ball with any of my trades. If I were, I would not be writing this letter because I would have either lucked up and hit a home run and my account would be over the 25k requirement or, the more likely case, I would be broke. I really think that it's amazing that I am not broke already due to the pattern day trading rule. Because of that rule, I have to be absolutely perfect in my timing and execution of the orders that I place because I know I won't be able to get out of the trade with a small loss and then reenter the trade under more favorable conditions. I also find myself fighting the urge to enter more riskier day trades in order to get lucky enough to bring my account that much closer to the absurd 25k level that somehow make me qualified to day trade.

 

What really boggles my mind is the fact that if I want to trade options, something I would consider far more risky a trading vehicle than mere day trading momentum, all I have to do is sign an agreement with my broker acknowledging that I understand the risks associated with options and if I haven't educated myself, which sadly most investors don't, I'm all set to lose my shirt even faster than if I were day trading and be left scratching my head thinking, "The stock went up, I had long call options, so why did I lose money?"

 

Where did this 25k level come from? What makes someone with 25k more qualified to day trade than someone who doesn't have an account that size? It's my money. If I want to day trade with it, I should be able to sign a brokerage agreement stating that I understand the risks associated with day trading just like I have to do if I want to trade options.

 

This notion that the SEC and FINRA is "protecting" the small investor with this rule is completely delusional. It is more of a hindrance than any sort of protection and by preventing the small investor from being able to adequately use all the tools available to be successful in the market. I say adequately because three day trades in a rolling five day period is far from adequate.

 

Trading is part science and part art. What would have happened if Picasso was only limited to three brush stokes in a five day rolling period when he was just starting to paint? Or if Mozart could only write three notes to a symphony in a rolling five day period? They both could have still been successful, however, it would have taken much longer to get there and there would have been much less in the end due to those restrictions when they were just starting out.

 

This notion that brokerage commissions when day trading are too costly for someone with less than 25k in their account can be thorn out the window. As competitive as the online brokerage industry has become, commissions have dropped to almost nothing.

 

In conclusion, there have been too many times where I have been in front of my computer watching stocks move unable to to take advantage of the momentum due to the pattern day trading rule. I should be able to sign a brokerage agreement acknowledging the risks associated with day trading just as I can with options and then be able to day trade no matter what my account size.

 

Thank you for your time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's the rule:

 

Basic pattern day trader rule summary:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An NASD & SEC rule that applies to anyone who buys and sells a particular security in the same trading day (day trades), and does this four or more times in any five consecutive business day period. A pattern day trader is subject to special rules. The main rule is that in order to engage in pattern day trading you must maintain an equity balance of at least $25,000 in a margin account.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, once you are classified as a PTD you can only sell stocks to close positions once your account drops below 25k. You must deposit additional funds in the account to bring it to 25k or above to buy stocks again.

 

Here's how this can hurt you: if the market is falling and you get stopped out on a dip, and your account falls to below 25k, you can't then rebuy back in until you deposit additional funds. Isn't that helpful of the government? They want you to be safe and cuddly and don't want you to buy those nasty stocks.

 

This rule was put in place in 2001, in response to all the day trading that became a craze in the late 90's and early 2000's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what I understand, you can get around it by using a proprietary trading firm that actually acts as a broker. But then you are stuck with their commissions, fees, software and who knows what else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So I just sent the following letter to the SEC regarding my thoughts to the Pattern Day Trading rule....

 

Thank you for your time.

 

many have sent a letter too.

 

I am sure SEC receives thousands of letters every month on this subject.

 

There is no need to rationalize whether trading options or futures is riskier.

 

My advice is... save up $25k before you start,

so you don't have to be aggravated by this rule.

 

If it is too difficult for you to save up $25k,

you will be shocked to find out it is even more difficult to turn $24k into $25k in the market.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All you have to do to get around this rule is make your account type = cash rather than a margin account. This will allow you to open and close positions on the same day without any round-trip limits, however, the proceeds from your sell transactions will not be available until the settlement date (the next trading day for options and in 3 trading days for stocks). This is the same way it works for IRA accounts. This shouldn't be a big deal for people who trade only options because they can't use the margin $ anyway. The only thing they're missing out on is the ability to re-use the cash proceeds from trades on the same trading day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • My wife Robin just wanted some groceries.   Simple enough.   She parked the car for fifteen minutes, and returned to find a huge scratch on the side.   Someone keyed her car.   To be clear, this isn’t just any car.   It’s a Cybertruck—Elon Musk's stainless-steel spaceship on wheels. She bought it back in 2021, before Musk became everyone's favorite villain or savior.   Someone saw it parked in a grocery lot and felt compelled to carve their hatred directly into the metal.   That's what happens when you stand out.   Nobody keys a beige minivan.   When you're polarizing, you're impossible to ignore. But the irony is: the more attention something has, the harder it is to find the truth about it.   What’s Elon Musk really thinking? What are his plans? What will happen with DOGE? Is he deserving of all of this adoration and hate? Hard to say.   Ideas work the same way.   Take tariffs, for example.   Tariffs have become the Cybertrucks of economic policy. People either love them or hate them. Even if they don’t understand what they are and how they work. (Most don’t.)   That’s why, in my latest podcast (link below), I wanted to explore the “in-between” truth about tariffs.   And like Cybertrucks, I guess my thoughts on tariffs are polarizing.   Greg Gutfield mentioned me on Fox News. Harvard professors hate me now. (I wonder if they also key Cybertrucks?)   But before I show you what I think about tariffs… I have to mention something.   We’re Headed to Austin, Texas This weekend, my team and I are headed to Austin. By now, you should probably know why.   Yes, SXSW is happening. But my team and I are doing something I think is even better.   We’re putting on a FREE event on “Tech’s Turning Point.”   AI, quantum, biotech, crypto, and more—it’s all on the table.   Just now, we posted a special webpage with the agenda.   Click here to check it out and add it to your calendar.   The Truth About Tariffs People love to panic about tariffs causing inflation.   They wave around the ghost of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff from the Great Depression like it’s Exhibit A proving tariffs equal economic collapse.   But let me pop this myth:   Tariffs don’t cause inflation. And no, I'm not crazy (despite what angry professors from Harvard or Stanford might tweet at me).   Here's the deal.   Inflation isn’t when just a couple of things become pricier. It’s when your entire shopping basket—eggs, shirts, Netflix subscriptions, bananas, everything—starts costing more because your money’s worth less.   Inflation means your dollars aren’t stretching as far as they used to.   Take the 1800s.   For nearly a century, 97% of America’s revenue came from tariffs. Income tax? Didn’t exist. And guess what inflation was? Basically zero. Maybe 1% a year.   The economy was booming, and tariffs funded nearly everything. So, why do people suddenly think tariffs cause inflation today?   Tariffs are taxes on imports, yes, but prices are set by supply and demand—not tariffs.   Let me give you a simple example.   Imagine fancy potato chips from Canada cost $10, and a 20% tariff pushes that to $12. Everyone panics—prices rose! Inflation!   Nope.   If I only have $100 to spend and the price of my favorite chips goes up, I either stop buying chips or I buy, say, fewer newspapers.   If everyone stops buying newspapers because they’re overspending on chips, newspapers lower their prices or go out of business.   Overall spending stays the same, and inflation doesn’t budge.   Three quick scenarios:   We buy pricier chips, but fewer other things: Inflation unchanged. Manufacturers shift to the U.S. to avoid tariffs: Inflation unchanged (and more jobs here). We stop buying fancy chips: Prices drop again. Inflation? Still unchanged. The only thing that actually causes inflation is printing money.   Between 2020 and 2022 alone, 40% of all money ever created in history appeared overnight.   That’s why inflation shot up afterward—not because of tariffs.   Back to tariffs today.   Still No Inflation Unlike the infamous Smoot-Hawley blanket tariff (imagine Oprah handing out tariffs: "You get a tariff, and you get a tariff!"), today's tariffs are strategic.   Trump slapped tariffs on chips from Taiwan because we shouldn’t rely on a single foreign supplier for vital tech components—especially if that supplier might get invaded.   Now Taiwan Semiconductor is investing $100 billion in American manufacturing.   Strategic win, no inflation.   Then there’s Canada and Mexico—our friendly neighbors with weirdly huge tariffs on things like milk and butter (299% tariff on butter—really, Canada?).   Trump’s not blanketing everything with tariffs; he’s pressuring trade partners to lower theirs.   If they do, everybody wins. If they don’t, well, then we have a strategic trade chess game—but still no inflation.   In short, tariffs are about strategy, security, and fairness—not inflation.   Yes, blanket tariffs from the Great Depression era were dumb. Obviously. Today's targeted tariffs? Smart.   Listen to the whole podcast to hear why I think this.   And by the way, if you see a Cybertruck, don’t key it. Robin doesn’t care about your politics; she just likes her weird truck.   Maybe read a good book, relax, and leave cars alone.   (And yes, nobody keys Volkswagens, even though they were basically created by Hitler. Strange world we live in.) Source: https://altucherconfidential.com/posts/the-truth-about-tariffs-busting-the-inflation-myth    Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/       
    • No, not if you are comparing apples to apples. What we call “poor” is obviously a pretty high bar but if you’re talking about like a total homeless shambling skexie in like San Fran then, no. The U.S.A. in not particularly kind to you. It is not an abuse so much as it is a sad relatively minor consequence of our optimism and industriousness.   What you consider rich changes with circumstances obviously. If you are genuinely poor in the U.S.A., you experience a quirky hodgepodge of unhelpful and/or abstract extreme lavishnesses while also being alienated from your social support network. It’s about the same as being a refugee. For a fraction of the ‘kindness’ available to you in non bio-available form, you could have simply stayed closer to your people and been MUCH better off.   It’s just a quirk of how we run the place and our values; we are more worried about interfering with people’s liberty and natural inclination to do for themselves than we are about no bums left behind. It is a slightly hurtful position and we know it; we are just scared to death of socialism cancer and we’re willing to put our money where our mouth is.   So, if you’re a bum; you got 5G, the ER will spend like $1,000,000 on you over a hangnail but then kick you out as soon as you’re “stabilized”, the logistics are surpremely efficient, you have total unchecked freedom of speech, real-estate, motels, and jobs are all natural healthy markets in perfect competition, you got compulsory three ‘R’’s, your military owns the sky, sea, space, night, information-space, and has the best hairdos, you can fill out paper and get all the stuff up to and including a Ph.D. Pretty much everything a very generous, eager, flawless go-getter with five minutes to spare would think you might need.   It’s worse. Our whole society is competitive and we do NOT value or make any kumbaya exception. The last kumbaya types we had werr the Shakers and they literally went extinct. Pueblo peoples are still around but they kind of don’t count since they were here before us. So basically, if you’re poor in the U.S.A., you are automatically a loser and a deadbeat too. You will be treated as such by anybody not specifically either paid to deal with you or shysters selling bejesus, Amway, and drugs. Plus, it ain’t safe out there. Not everybody uses muhfreedoms to lift their truck, people be thugging and bums are very vulnerable here. The history of a large mobile workforce means nobody has a village to go home to. Source: https://askdaddy.quora.com/Are-the-poor-people-in-the-United-States-the-richest-poor-people-in-the-world-6   Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/ 
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.