Men Suck - Women Are Better Traders

[MadMarketScientist 11]

I was listening to a Mirus\Ninja webinar today and one of the slides said women are MUCH more profitable then men at trading! An interesting slide, I wonder if its true or if its just a sampling thing where MANY more men 'give it a go' and these losers bring down the average?

 

MMS

[Pony 10]

I just read this, and went back to quote something I had posted, and apparently you already noticed the similarities as well.

 

Anyway, this is my theory. I'm from Texas, and a lot of people from Texas go to the military, but they are usually men. Let me point out that one weekend back home visiting my friends, I was hanging out with a buddy, he never says anything, but next week he's going to be shipped out to bootcamp. He just decided he was going to do it, no if's and's or butt's.

 

Now let's look at my sister. Shy girl all through high school, very intelligent (valedictorian), studied all the time. She decided from her freshman year in high school, she was going to be a lawyer, and that's what she became, she never strayed from the path, just slow and steady, and eleven years later, she was a lawyer (14 years old plus 11 = 25).

 

What's my point? Guys just do it. They get something in their head and just do it, if it doesn't work, they try it again. My guess is women want to get it right the first time so they don't have to try again. Which is better? Hell, I dunno, but I know the Wright Brothers didn't get the airplane right the first time. Many guys try it, and fail, then don't have the capital to get back on the horse. Women study a lot, then give it a try. It would be obvious who would be more successful the first try, but not necessarily more successful in general.

 

However, I don't believe there are many formal studies on day traders, so I would say that's probably a made up statistic. You know 73% of statistics are made up?

 

Oh, and James, did I mention you were in one of those books I was talking about?

[steve46 12]

All I have is my recent experience

 

In a class that has been underway almost two months, the men are more profitable and better risk managers.

 

In contrast the women are more patient and seem to "think" more clearly....

 

So, there are differences but I would suggest they may be more accurately attributed to individual temperment rather than gender.

[Pony 10]

yeah, but don't you think men and women generally have different temperament? Use high school kids whose hormones are at their peak. If you slapped a football player's chick on the hind end, he's going to want to fight. Slap a cheerleader's boyfriend on the hind end, she's going to talk crap behind your back. One's more aggressive, generally. Both genders do both.

[JEHs 10]

I was listening to a Mirus\Ninja webinar today and one of the slides said women are MUCH more profitable then men at trading! An interesting slide, I wonder if its true or if its just a sampling thing where MANY more men 'give it a go' and these losers bring down the average?

 

MMS

 

Just going by my wife, who is always right, this makes perfect sense.

[MadMarketScientist 11]

steve46, out of curiosity, what is the men\women ratio?

 

thanks,

MMS

[minoo 11]

Once this clever Dick, Who ammended his Trading Bill

 

Last Trading Amendment: In All ways & Always Treat the Market as 'DA Lady'

 

Attempted this for me trader friends, bog down with the Lady on the last polling day

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/general-discussion/4807-poem-lady-market.html

 

You will find the template of your Bill somewhere here, (what amendments you elect its down to yoU)

Gamblers First Squawk'd: 'Son I make my life, out of reading 'peoples faces', ... . ..

 

Enjoy Minoo

[steve46 12]

steve46, out of curiosity, what is the men\women ratio?

 

thanks,

MMS

 

2/3rds men/1/3 women

 

As I say I think it it more about individual temperment.

 

Sorry to be so late in replying, this was a particularly difficult day for me...

 

Best Regards

Steve

[MadMarketScientist 11]

2/3rds men/1/3 women

 

As I say I think it it more about individual temperment.

 

Sorry to be so late in replying, this was a particularly difficult day for me...

 

Best Regards

Steve

 

Wow 1/3 women - that surprises me. If I were to guess I would have thought at most 15%. No worries on the reply time we all have lives outside TL (right?)

 

MMS

[Ingot54 13]

I was listening to a Mirus\Ninja webinar today and one of the slides said

women are MUCH more profitable then men at trading! An interesting slide,

I wonder if its true or if its just a sampling thing where MANY more men

'give it a go' and these losers bring down the average?

 

MMS

 

Ha ha MMS ... I have an experience to share, and I say that it "might" be right ...

but I think that Mirus/Ninja slide probably should have read:

 

"Trained women are MUCH more profitable then men at trading!"

 

A couple of years ago my dear wife was watching me struggle to keep my trading

head above the whirlpool of the Forex market. She has always been more of a

right-brain intuitive type, and told me that I should be "trading intuitively", and that I

should "stop analysing and thinking" so much, and "just do it."

 

As you can imagine ... I thought: "Who is this upstart woman to be telling me how to

trade ... I ... who have studied and 'know' what I am talking about!" So I decided to

risk $100 and let her have her way!

 

We found a nice setup with the EURJPY and I told her I thought it was setting up

for a trade. I said: "Just tell me when to enter, and which direction."

 

At the appropriate time the call was made "intuitively" by her, and the trade began

to run a little in her favour - 3 pips. She was feeling smug, but experience told me

that the trends (other TF) were in favour of the other direction. We had just broken

even (spread paid) when suddenly price reversed, as the higher TF asserted itself.

I kept my mouth shut, and kept the smug smirk off my face.

The price burned through $60 and she called for a close.

 

We had a serous discussion about it. I told her that indeed there is a place for intuition,

but that I thought it was more useful AFTER a trader had learned to trade well,

and that I thought trader's intuition was the product of unconscious knowledge of

patterns practised thousands of times in the brain, until they were popping out without

too much conscious effort.

 

That is what I would call an "intuitive trade", which I believe was the goal she was

pursuing in her approach to that trade.

 

In an untrained person, in my view, such an approach is little more than a guess based on

the "look" of the trend, and without the advantage of supply/demand ... support/resistance

and knowledge of what the higher TF trends are doing.

 

Needless to say, she has never mentioned intuitive trading to me again, and basically still

supports me 100% in whatever approach I take. I could give many excuses for why I am

so far not extracting enough capital from the markets to match our family expenditure,

but they would be just excuses.

 

I am a firm believer in making excuses, but then dealing with them in a way that makes me an overcomer.

 

You can have that quote - it is an original from me!

 

PS: I have indeed learned much from my wife, believe it or not. She is a very wise

person, and I do think that if she wanted to trade, she would make a far better

manager of trading positions that I currently am. :missy:

 

PS2: Google: "Lehman Sisters wouldn't have failed" for a balanced look at this topic

Edited June 25, 2011 by Ingot54

[minoo 11]

Ingot what can I say, you are truly an Saint in my book;

You have patience with your half, can manage a dialouge, a real trade & learnt something from the Expereince of it all!

My Respects to you man.

 

+-----------------------Below is my Deal--------------------------------------------------------------+

Here is past experience with the very unpredictable and volatile Instrument classed as WIFE

Symbol: $Spent; (mini-Sized Symbol: A$$@)

Truly Dollar is the King here, and man's Best Indicator

 

Simple $Spent Strategy

 

We Agree, We do it Your-Way

When Not, We do it My-Way

 

As a humble Trader I rather be less wrong, then try to be Right

Whichever Da Lady, I have long given up my right, to be right

No RR nor even PnL, But Just G&T (Give & Take)

 

Wait till your till starts ringing man, what you hear may all change

 

Enjoy Minoo

 

Take note:

With market though The Simple Strategy, works the other way Round

[wizard4444 10]

I am sorry but this phrase " My guess is women want to get it right the first time so they don't have to try again. " in Forex or any type of trading this does not work in my humble opinion, cause as any successful trader knows you might be a champ in theory and study and you want to get it right the first time but if you don't go live (witch is a whole different animal) you don't really learn. And I do not know no one that has not lost money live.

Now I am a "Pro trader" I trade for a big bank but I would like to tell you my story, I was one of those people that study study study, I don't think there are too many people that have studied soooo much "to get it right the first time" but it was not in my favor.....I studied so much that I was getting confused, confusing different theories and could not see where I was wrong. In my experience I was just as bad as the just do it crowd and sometimes the just do it crowd most likely was better. Now I am not saying that it is better to just do it ,but I believe "stick to the basics and just do it" ,deposit $100 and trade micro lots and in the end through trial and error and a lot of passion you will get it.

There is no better school in life or trading than going through the experience yourself ,all the theory in the world will not help you, it just delayed my progress by 10 years minimum cause I had to unlearn a lot of it......

 

 

I just read this, and went back to quote something I had posted, and apparently you already noticed the similarities as well.

 

Anyway, this is my theory. I'm from Texas, and a lot of people from Texas go to the military, but they are usually men. Let me point out that one weekend back home visiting my friends, I was hanging out with a buddy, he never says anything, but next week he's going to be shipped out to bootcamp. He just decided he was going to do it, no if's and's or butt's.

 

Now let's look at my sister. Shy girl all through high school, very intelligent (valedictorian), studied all the time. She decided from her freshman year in high school, she was going to be a lawyer, and that's what she became, she never strayed from the path, just slow and steady, and eleven years later, she was a lawyer (14 years old plus 11 = 25).

 

What's my point? Guys just do it. They get something in their head and just do it, if it doesn't work, they try it again. My guess is women want to get it right the first time so they don't have to try again. Which is better? Hell, I dunno, but I know the Wright Brothers didn't get the airplane right the first time. Many guys try it, and fail, then don't have the capital to get back on the horse. Women study a lot, then give it a try. It would be obvious who would be more successful the first try, but not necessarily more successful in general.

 

However, I don't believe there are many formal studies on day traders, so I would say that's probably a made up statistic. You know 73% of statistics are made up?

 

Oh, and James, did I mention you were in one of those books I was talking about?

[strohem 10]

The "Lehman Sisters" link was interesting.

 

 

I disagree that women are better and I don't subscribe to the intuitive trading line of reasoning. In my third decade now, I've seen a remarkable difference in the temperaments of clients and trading acquaintances, be they men OR women (as was pointed out a few times already). Some people are wired properly for trading - others are not. Trading has a life-long learning curve and one thing is certain:

 

You can only control the process, not the outcome.

 

With respect to investing, my observation is that women are more disciplined and willing to stay with a plan/course. Men will engage in the chase (of the latest trend) more readily, but anyone can get caught up in a mania if they have no self-control.

 

As for trading (whether swinging or day-trading), men and women both fail or succeed equally in my opinion. I think forums such as this are populated by far more men than women, so we don't hear from women often enough to get a better sense of this.

 

 

Three illustrations:

 

1) Barbra Streisand: Babs was the beneficiary of a market-gone-parabolic at its bull end-run (99-00). Who knows how she's fared since? She was certainly no less emotional than anybody else at the time. The word is that she started flipping the real estate market several years ago (at its peak), and the Chinese market more recently.

 

2) Leslie VanWinkle: In the June 2010 TA of Stocks and Commodities, Ms. VanWinkle penned a brutally candid article about her experience in the Forex Market. She writes that her biggest lesson was: "When reality replaces theory, all bets are off."

 

3) Another gal who was a customer of one of my businesses; she left the cutthroat business of real estate in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area in late 2006 after having done moderately well. She was an agent, but made more money flipping in the bubble. When it became apparent housing sales were slowing, she moved to a small place in the mountains. She was determined to parlay her assets in the Forex arena. Within a year, she moved back to the valley (almost broke) and had to go back into RE (sales) at the worst of times.

 

 

None of these examples really matter much, I suppose. For every woman that fails or succeeds there are a proportionately similar number of men with the same experiences.

 

The problems arise when generalities are assumed to be fact.

 

 

S

[strohem 10]

... ...all the theory in the world will not help you, it just delayed my progress by 10 years minimum cause I had to unlearn a lot of it......

 

 

That is precisely what the author in my second example above stated. She had learned too much and that "it was twisting my brain into knots" and that it was a result of her "compulsive curiosity and natural intensity", traits she felt were both her best and worst.

 

 

S

[djohnsonhot 10]

You guys will laugh (and Ladies); I have finally talked my wife into trading options..I will train her. She is very smart and unemotional.

[ake 10]

Michael Lewis, who gave evidence to the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission thinks, along with some in academia, that women may be better at managing risk than men.

 

When asked what single thing he would do to reform the markets and prevent [the 2008/2009 financial crisis] happening again, [Michael Lewis] said: "I would take steps to have 50% of women in risk positions in banks." Pressed on this, he went on to suggest how science reveals that women in general make smarter decisions regarding investment than men, that when it comes to money, women in couples are demonstrably better at evaluating risk than their partners, and single women much better still.

 

Though those of us males who have an uncanny sense of money always slipping through our fingers might anecdotally believe this to be true, I was surprised to hear it stated as a fact. It seemed to beg a number of questions. First, if women really are better at making these judgments, why is it always men, still, without exception, who troop out before select committees to explain where it all went wrong, and how they weren't really to blame. And second, would it really be different if women were in charge?

 

You don't have to look too far into the science to realise that Lewis's claim, in broad terms, stands up. The first definitive study in this area appeared in 2001 in a celebrated paper that broke down the investment decisions made with a brokerage firm by 35,000 households in America. The study, called, inevitably, "Boys will be Boys" found that while men were confident in making multiple changes to investments, their annual returns were, on average, a full percentage point below those of women who invested the family finances, and nearly half as much again inferior to single women.

 

A more recent study of 2.7 million personal investors found that during the financial crisis of 2008 and 2009, men were much more likely than women to sell any shares they owned at stock market lows. Male investors, as a group, appeared to be overconfident, the author of this study suggested. "There's been a lot of academic research suggesting that men think they know what they're doing, even when they really don't know what they're doing." A fact that will come as a surprise to few of us. Men, it seemed, typically believed they could make sense of every piece of short-term financial news. Women, never embarrassed to ask directions, were on the whole far more likely to acknowledge when they didn't know something. As a consequence, women shifted their positions far less frequently, and made significantly more money as a result.

 

Read the rest here:

Testosterone and high finance do not mix: so bring on the women | World news | The Observer

[MightyMouse 12]

Clearly there are more men traders than women traders. Hard to clearly conclude that men are better if the population of men to woman traders is 100 to 1, or 1000 to 1. You can clearly conclude that overall male traders go broke more often than female traders, but you can't draw a valid conclusion from that either because of the data skew. However, since 90% of traders lose money and most are male and there are more females on this planet, we can weakly conclude that women are not as dumb as most males to try trading in the first place.

 

Historically, men and women make exactly the same mistake when assessing whether to let losses run or cut a profit short.

[minoo 11]

Thanks for the comments

Those punters who could not figure-out (no pun-in) the mini-sized symbol in my previous comments A$$@' is pronounced as in 'Asset' & nothing other!

 

Here is an excellent article which will enlighten us a bit more

 

+--------Two Extracts which may sum up these evolved creatures well ---------+

 

While male traders are natural risk-takers, women are more risk-averse, says the study. That's fine in a "bull" market – when shares are going up – because men are more likely to make huge sums for their clients. But when the stock market is in decline, women sell shares earlier and losses are much smaller. In fact, according to the report by investment bank Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein (DKW), on average they lose half as much as the men.

 

Her experiences bear out the DKW study. "When it comes to a stock portfolio, women tend to look at the whole thing, while the men prefer to select particular investments," said Ms Zenek. "Men are aggressive buyers, but that either gives you staggering out-performance or staggering under-performance." Men, she said, have more confidence but they also demonstrate "a tendency to fall in love with their investments".

 

For full Article By Leo Lewis

If you want to make money on the stock market, deal with a woman - Business News, Business - The Independent

 

Enjoy Minoo

Edited: Some of you may be interested in reading the Book Confessions of a City Girl, This book started out as an column in an London Newspaper

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Confessions-City-Girl/dp/0753519763/#_

Edited June 26, 2011 by minoo

[forexfilms 10]

In my experience women are far less likely to be attracted to trading. They tend to be more satisfied with what they are given in life and are more likely to be submissive rather than shun authority and try to be individualistic which is usually required to be a trader.

[SIUYA 11]

for me post #16 ake and post #18 Minoo provide the info.

It does not matter if you are male or female.....its what you do that counts - cut the losses quickly, dont overtrade, run the winners....

now if these happen to be traits that females have in abundance compared to men, then yes they probably make better traders. Problem is they might not have the other requirement most deem necessary for successful trading - a passion for the markets, which could explain why a lot of women dont trade....I mean what other profession has so little barriers to entry that sexual discrimination does not play a part.

 

What was very interesting was with Minoo article is that its often very true.....in bull markets the most aggressive players make the most money - but it does not mean they also dont loose it later.....does this make them the better traders? I think not.

Anyone who has worked for trading firms would have seen this plenty of times.

[minoo 11]

Thanks Siuya, Hear it from Stephanie Radkay who has spent 10yrs in the Chicago pits trading the S&P500 & Nasdaq

 

Do Woman Have an Advantage or Disadvantage in Trading? - Trader Kingdom

 

If you have time than try this out, she starts just after 7mins in the webinar

Balance Risk & Commitment Trading Index Futures_0

 

Enjoy Minoo

[FXGirl 10]

Dear Forexfilms:

 

I don’t know what country you live in, nor do I have any knowledge about who you hang out with, but when you talk about women and say, “They tend to be more satisfied with what they are given in life and are more likely to be submissive rather than shun authority and try to be individualistic which is usually required to be a trader”, all I can say is your description sure doesn’t fit the women I know.

 

I don’t think that shunning authority and being individualistic are required to be a successful trader.

 

Success is related to hard work, attention to detail, the ability to develop a trading plan, emotional management strategies that allow the trader to stick to the plan, and persistence, lots of persistence. These qualities are much more important than whether you are a man or a woman.

[Ingot54 13]

Dear Forexfilms:

 

I don’t know what country you live in, nor do I have any knowledge about who you hang out with, but when you talk about women and say, “They tend to be more satisfied with what they are given in life and are more likely to be submissive rather than shun authority and try to be individualistic which is usually required to be a trader”, all I can say is your description sure doesn’t fit the women I know.

 

Success is related to hard work, attention to detail, the ability to develop a trading plan, emotional management strategies that allow the trader to stick to the plan, and persistence, lots of persistence. These qualities are much more important than whether you are a man or a woman.

I am not a mysogynist, FXGirl, but I wonder if women are truly happy now that they have been emancipated from the ironing board to the board room?

 

Who would exchange the security of home duties (why are they seen as female slavery in a family where the breadwinner is male?) for the insecurity of the corporate ladder???

 

Any woman who thinks that being "freed" from the duties of keeping home and being there for the kids, is less desirable than having to pay for a second car and baby-sitting just to get back to a rat race, has rocks in their heads!

 

We are bombarded by "work-from-home" enticements all over the Internet. Why? Because research shows that most people have had a belly full of traffic jams and corporate bullying in the office, just so they can be seen to be "getting ahead" ... whatever "ahead" represents!

 

Look - if the woman wants to work - I am all in favour of that. But who is minding the kids? And who is going to pay for the Psychologist for these young people later in life when they realise they were NOT brought up, but just "grew up" without all the potential they could have realised? I think ONE parent has to be there as the kids leave for school, and as they get home from school, as the very least requirement. That parent could be either Mum or Dad - but it should be ONE of them.

 

Something wrong with being a parent? Then BE a parent, don't abrogate that responsibility ... the day-care provider does NOT care about your kids, despite what the brochures say - it's all about the MONEY!

 

If children had access to a relaxed and interested Mum, instead of a tense and exhausted authority figure, who has no energy left for her kids, herself or her husband, then life might have been more secure, the prisons might have been smaller, the homework might have been completed more willingly and diligently, and society much better off as a community organism. And the kids might have attained that school grade EVERY year, that ensures they had available to them the kind of vocation others only dream of.

 

I meant it when I said I am not mysogynistic. My wife does not work outside of our home, and except for a brief period when she established a small business that operated on casual hours she herself controlled, she has never wanted to take on that pressure. She was an executive secretary to a busy import/export business in the Pacific before we married.

 

Our kids are well balanced and far more wealthy in their 30's than I could ever be. Their own children are well adjusted and excel in their educational spheres. My wife loves that she can live her life with freedom and without pressure. She is an organised person - rises early and chucks on a load of washing, and it is done by 07.30am. Each individual irons thier own clothes if needed. We share the cooking and washing dishes (no dishwasher by choice), and we make our own beds.

 

This small arrangement of domestic discipline has proven over time to be the very best arrangement for us - it needn't be for everyone else. It just takes a bit of responsibility, but oh! the freedom it confers!

 

Under these conditions, why would my wife want to return to the savagery of corporate life? She is already free! And I will die defending her rights to choose either way.

 

Is there something she is missing? She is already self-actualising with her personal websites - an activity that chews up about 2 hours a day ... when it suits her.

 

I see nothing submissive about a woman choosing to accept what she is given in life ... that is the ultimate satisfaction - gratitude for what comes one's way, and having the wisdom to recognise when one is well off.

 

Having worked in a rat-race environment, quickly makes one grateful for the opportunity to kept securely, without that kind of pressure - the pressure that leads to mental and emotional breakdown. Human beings were simply NOT designed to live under the kind of pressure they face today, and have faced, ever since the domestic appliances revolution in the 1950's began to soak up what was left of a family's disposable income.

 

I have always been appalled at the two-income family model, because it is unbalanced and has now become a requirement, not a choice.

 

My own model is working, and I suspect, happier, though I don't preclude the 2-income model from producing happiness. I know the women I work with are tired, bitchy, worn out, burned out and run down, and dream - oh how they dream - of being home and out of the workforce, where they can spend time with their families in the way they thought the extra income would supply for them!

 

Unfortunately the Germaine Greer-style Social Engineering has only ensured the offices of Psychologists like yourself, have full waiting rooms, 6 days a week.

 

Society IS breaking down, isn't it, FXGirl? It sure isn't getting stronger, happier, easier, more fulfilling and more secure, is it? Why is that? Could it have something to do with the quality of the citizens that are produced in the cradles of our society? getting women into the workforce might be seen as "equal opportunity" by the social engineers, but I can see the personal results of that in the sad faces of the women I work with.

 

I don't call the results "emancipating." It more resembles slavery, because these women do not have family situations that could be said to be better off because they work.

 

Sorry for going off-topic - but there are some comments that are too defensive and should not be allowed to pass into folk-lore. I know I have a minority view, and I think I am right in it, but I have seen the results of BOTH models, and I know the one I prefer ... the happy one.

 

I respect your right to defend the working-women model, if you choose that, but I think we need some balance. The choice to work soon becomes a compulsion to work.

 

Then it is too late. "Success" does NOT necessarily equate to happiness.

[Ingot54 13]

Success is related to:

* hard work

* attention to detail

* the ability to develop a trading plan

* emotional management strategies that allow the trader to stick to the plan

* persistence, lots of persistence.

 

These qualities are much more important than whether you are a man or a woman.

FXGirl - you have a philosophy of trading after my own heart (almost) - and I fully support your views on the reasons behind success ... that is a great list, and truly represents the required ethic.

 

Gender has little to do with it.

 

I would think:

* aptitude

* attitude

* motivation

* insight

could also be added to the list.

 

Maybe the gender differences (if they exist) might relate more to the idea that women probably don't force themselves to persist in an occupation that is unsuitable to them. And that might be related to the fact that the colloquial term "macho" is seldom if ever, used to describe a woman!

 

The 19th and early 20th Century models, having Dad as "the breadwinner" still persist in the psyche - look at my attitudes to this issue as a prime example of that. And this might be why men struggle to "prove" they can succeed. The inherited psyche of (the older) women regarding this issue, is still a little bit novel, perhaps, in that they are yet to become of age in the corporate and income hierarchies.

 

I personally feel that a woman still has a lot more choice in these areas than men do. Regardless of how equal a women becomes, the fact will never be eroded that the genders ARE different, and DO bring different strengths and weaknesses to the table.

 

That is probably why I truly respect the views of my wife when we discuss my trading activities. She has an impartial perspective that is not burdened by the pressures I am feeling.

 

While it is I who wants to make a transition from my current occupation, to a system where I can grow capital through trading activity, it is she who can see things that I overlook. But I still filter her comments through the filter of my own knowledge of the markets. She doesn't have the insight I have, but I don't have hers either.

 

I think she would make an excellent trader - if only I could get her addicted!

 

But I think she values too highly the privilege of making a secure home for us all, above any material pleasures derived from proving she is equal to any man.

 

Of course she has nothing to prove.

[SIUYA 11]

Ingot - you are touching on the ideas of freedom of choice and do we really want it, and are we actually able to handle it and the consequences that come with it.....this is not really just related to male/female relationships.

If you take it back to trading it can very easily be applied here.....and the reality is we only really have three choices to chose from - long, short, flat/square.....and even these three choices throw up endless conundrums of when to apply these freedoms....

eye yi yi yi yi...the head spins.