"The Force is Within You, Luke. It's Not The Trading System"

[nhallett 10]

There are only a handful of people who give a darn about supplying traders with a way to be more disciplined and focused in their trading. I'm one of them, so I think I know why there are so few of us.

 

Heck, I'm in the business of supplying traders with a tool to help improve the mental side of the trading equation… the “human” element. With (what I think) is such an important service, why am I out here virtually alone?

 

A couple of reasons.

 

First, although most traders will admit that the mental part of trading is key to winning in the long-term, most believe they can “gut it up” and just “shake it off” when negative emotions and behaviors rear their ugly heads. They don't need a shrink. They know what they need to do and by-cracky, they'll do what needs to be done without any help! I call this the Macho Syndrome.

 

So, I get resistance from those that need it most, the emotionally out-of-control trader.

 

Second, a common mindset is that the primary key to being a successful trader is hooking your wagon to a guru or trading system and then following that system to riches. The problem is that all (even great) trading systems experience draw-downs and you wind up blaming the system for losing rather than doing what is painful for some… blaming yourself (for not having the courage to trade through adversity)!

 

So here I am, preaching pain.

 

“It's not your system, it's you!” To the trader with low self-confidence, those words can cut like a knife.

 

“How about paying more attention to the mental/emotional part of trading?” To the trader with low self-esteem, I'd be accusing him/her of having something wrong with him/her.

 

Being the Shepard of the mental/emotional aspect of trading is not an easy job. But it's rewarding.

 

For those who start paying REAL ATTENTION to the mental part of trading, results can improve rapidly.

 

They start saying,

 

“How can I improve as a trader?

 

“How can I make sure that the only variable to losing and winning is my system and not me?”

 

When was the last time you asked yourself these important questions?

 

It's not all about changing your system; tweek, tweek, tweek.

 

My guess is that it's about changing YOU.

 

So, for me, I love what I do.

 

Can anybody hear me?

 

My best,

Norman Hallett

[steve46 12]

Well you certainly gave it "the old college try" Norman

 

Unfortunately if one does not have an edge (a replicable, established mathematical advantage) that they can execute, it won't matter how disciplined they are...in fact one might suggest that a disciplined trader using a bad or even a mediocre system (a system without a mathematical edge) would actually bleed his or her account dry sooner, because part of that discipline is to take every trade.....Also a system without a mathematical edge will probably experience longer losing streaks then the trader can anticipate making it psychologically difficult to trade........ah well, again nice try....perhaps a little more thought on the subject will bring you around..

 

Now one might ask, why so harsh (I would not but some people would feel that way) and my reply ladies/gentlemen is that a person who in his "preamble" claims to be "one of the few" blah blah blah, should in theory be better educated that this....after all this is something that any journeyman trader should be able to "prove" to him/herself.

 

I don't expect you to say "oh my it seems I overlooked those points, well back to the drawing board and thanks so much"....so I will simply go my own way while you explain how you are "right after all"

 

Please do go right ahead with your comments

 

Cheers

Steve

[Ingot54 13]

First, although most traders will admit that the mental part of trading is key to winning in the long-term, most believe they can “gut it up” and just “shake it off” when negative emotions and behaviors rear their ugly heads. They don't need a shrink. They know what they need to do and by-cracky, they'll do what needs to be done without any help! I call this the Macho Syndrome.

 

So, I get resistance from those that need it most, the emotionally out-of-control trader.

Norman

 

I don't think it's such a bad thing to "gut it up" as you say. Your label "Macho Syndrome" is a little too presumptuous for me. It is not necessarily a Macho activity to not quit, to not give up, to strive until the day of success.

 

Might it not be possible for traders to experience the breakthrough AFTER "gutting it up" for long enough that they begin to take a serious look at the other things they are doing too, and making corrections there?

 

Traders need not necessarily be "out of control" (define "out of control" for me) if they are having a problem reaching goals.

 

You mentioned that "most traders will admit that the mental part of trading is key to winning in the long-term" ... they might - but I don't. It may play a part, but I think the use of the word "key" might be a fair way beneath the three points I make below. I understand how, from your perspective, it would be nice to have that aspect reach the zenith.

 

Facts speak for themselves - there are not a great number of traders who are putting up their hands in support of these kinds of notions - Mark Douglas had a go, but the consensus these days is that his ideas, while nice, don't actually help many traders make a true difference over time. His stuff sold well for a time, because he was the first kid on the block to get it into print, and led the herd.

 

Second, a common mindset is that the primary key to being a successful trader is hooking your wagon to a guru or trading system and then following that system to riches. The problem is that all (even great) trading systems experience draw-downs and you wind up blaming the system for losing rather than doing what is painful for some… blaming yourself (for not having the courage to trade through adversity)!

 

Norman Hallett

Most serious traders may have passed that simple point in their pilgrimage a long time back. In fact I don't know any struggling traders who still believe that hooking up to a guru/strategy/system ... etc ... is in any way "the pathway to riches."

I class myself as a struggling trader, even though I no longer have the persisting losses of the past. I no longer have the big drawdown either.

 

These days I simply accept that the markets should be played by those who have:

 

a) The capital to trade through market activity (trend/range)

b) A strategy that delivers a positive expectation (edge/opportunity)

c) No need of the money (other means of subsistence independent of trading)

 

Trading financial markets should not be attempted by those with less than $20,000 and the above attributes. To do so is ok, but the mindset should include words like "hobby," "gamble" and so on.

 

Further, I am not aware of any single trader who is walking "the pathway to riches" (your words, not mine) following some decent head work either by yourself or some other well-known psychologist who frequents this forum.

 

It may well be that there are such creatures on the pathway to riches, but it is doubtful that you will find a psychologist amongst them. Psychologists are business people. Traders trade. I don't know any psychologists who trade successfully, though FXGirl says she does.

Unfortunately if one does not have an edge (a replicable, established mathematical advantage) that they can execute, it won't matter how disciplined they are...in fact one might suggest that a disciplined trader using a bad or even a mediocre system (a system without a mathematical edge) would actually bleed his or her account dry sooner, because part of that discipline is to take every trade.

 

Steve

Given that I know you are a trader who walks the talk, I find your comments more acceptable. Your posts and trading examples are all over this forum, but for me, I am still unable to understand where you are coming from.

 

That is not meant to be a criticism of you or your methodology. But without also enrolling in your course, or becoming one of your students, I am destined to never being able to understand your strategy clearly enough to make even one trade successfully.

 

In that respect, you are in the same boat as Norman - a man with a mission ... an agenda?

 

I happen to respect you and Norman for what you do, but thanks for the insight.

In hindsight I might be glad I declined.

It might explain why I don't win (enough) at trading ... but I don't lose either.

 

Still open, still looking, still trying, still waiting for Norman's "key."

 

"Gutting it up" has placed me closer to where I want to be than the intervention of any single person.

 

Why would I change that now?

 

There isn't an answer that defines it (ie why I would want to change anything), and still be classed as a civil response to the question!

Edited June 24, 2011 by Ingot54

[steve46 12]

Ingot

 

I am a limited human being, who happens to be very, very good at this profession...I can't be all things to all people however...and I don't intend to try...I think the only thing a person can do is to evaluate whether they are making progress toward their goals....it is a question we all have to ask ourselves...My own experience is that most if not all the people who claim they have something authoritative to say (on the subject of trading anyway) upon closer examination, are simply pretenders....sorry to be so harsh but that is probably as close to the bald truth as you are going to get..I have been through it all, from losing to winning and all I can do is suggest to people that I might be able to help...the rest is up to the individual....

 

Best of luck to you

Steve

[BlowFish 10]

One has to ask oneself whether a vendor of 'self help' type products is best equipped to 'supply traders with a way to be more disciplined and focused in their trading.' One thing you can say about Hallett is that he certainly understands internet marketing.

 

I would also question whether there are only a 'handful of people that give a darn'. There are a plethora of people that provide these sorts of products and services to traders. Many are psychologists (with recognised professional qualifications such as a PhD) that have chosen to specialise in the (lucrative) trading arena. One has to assume they 'give a darn' when there income depends on it.

[Ingot54 13]

My own experience is that most if not all the people who claim they have something authoritative to say (on the subject of trading anyway) upon closer examination, are simply pretenders....

 

Steve

I understand why you might use the word "pretenders"

 

But the fact is that many of us who have yet to tread the "pathway to riches" DO know something about trading. Many of us HAVE turned our trading around. So why would we not wish to share those things that have been shown to help us already? Is this not another step along that pathway?

 

It takes time to learn the art of trading.

 

Reading, discussing, rebuking and receiving rebuke, contributing and practising, winning and losing, attempting and failing, hannging in, tweaking, focusing, reviewing, testing and so on ... and on ...

 

I do think the word "pretend" IS a little harsh.

Because these "pretenders" will one day break through, many of them.

 

And without the forums and the posts, the teachers and the guru's, the strategies and the strategists, the charts, blogs, journals, mentors, coaches and yes even the psychologists, the whole industry would be in a sorry state.

 

Under such conditions even you would be struggling, as you would be forced to compete with traders who have deeper pockets, better software, more experience, better inside information and on and on.

 

You wouldn't have the fodder you now have - those pretenders who are currently your easy pickings, your bread and butter, simply because you see them as pretenders. These little traders who are losing their money are the other side of your trades, and you see them as pretenders.

 

I understand that. Most of what is written on forums is simply stuff that people have read in various trading books, and it is being discussed and regurgitated. If that is pretending, then it means the authors of those books are probably charlatans and misleading their readers. Posting things is a means to crystallise the understanding each writer has, and as such they leave themselves open to the critique of their peers.

 

This is something lurkers on forums miss out on - they fail to expose their thoughts to others, and so fail to receive the rebuke or the confirmation that might be the next step for them. Much of what I have ever written on forums could be regarded as taken from my own experiences in trading. As to whether there is any authority about it - only a reader can confer that kind of status. I have never claimed to be an authority on anything.

 

But being labelled a pretender will not deter me from "faking it until I'm making it." I don't see anything fake in writing about something I believe enough to share with others whom I regard as fellow travelers.

 

You may not have aimed the word directly at me - I don't think you did - but it stands that without the pretenders, forums would never be the venue where people like yourself find an audience.

[Pony 10]

As far as out of control, I can only say Mark Barton. I only have one comment on this though. I think this article would have gone over better if it weren't so black and white. Every successful trader knows that there is a psychological aspect to this profession (I'm not a successful trader, I've made 9 trades in the past 7 years) My point being is when your title completely disregards that a good trading system is needed, you're going to get bashed for it.

[BlowFish 10]

I do think the word "pretend" IS a little harsh.

Harsh but true. Many people (especially vendors) make false claims about their trading 'credentials'. The original meaning of pretender was anyone who made a claim to the throne (legitimately or fabricated) in common use nowadays it means to make false claim. Just to be clear I am not suggesting Normans claims are false, just that many trading vendors are.

Because these "pretenders" will one day break through, many of them.

Sadly most will not. The point is that it does not vindicate them being a pretender in the past.

 

Apologies, I am in a particularly sceptical mood today....I blame the hangover :beer::cheers::sleep: :doh:

[thalestrader 14]

Sadly most will not...Apologies, I am in a particularly sceptical mood today....

 

My friend, Blowfish, your skepticism is well founded. Most will indeed fail, and from the ranks of the failed often rise the successful (or not) vendor, whether internet marketer or direct marketer.

 

I was just going through two weeks worth of mail, and I have 17 (yes, seventeen) pieces of rather expensive marketing material from the likes of Chuck Hughes, Don Fishbeck, Vector Vest, something called the MIPS system, and a dozen others touting some new trading system or pumping some new mining or energy pennystock. I would bet that most of those sending these out to me started as an aspiring trader, struggled, failed, and ended up as a supplier of this, that, and the other to other (equally unsuccessful) aspiring traders.

 

Good to see you're still here. TL has become all but unrecognizable to me some days.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[thalestrader 14]

These days I simply accept that the markets should be played by those who have:

 

a) The capital to trade through market activity (trend/range)

b) A strategy that delivers a positive expectation (edge/opportunity)

c) No need of the money (other means of subsistence independent of trading)

 

That is not a bad set of assumptions, Ingot54. I think your third assumption might be the most important for a new trader. I do wish you well.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[Ingot54 13]

Speaks the man who refused to "prove" to the mouse that he can actually trade. You should avoid words like prove, proof, or pretend in your posts. All of you who want to sell something, refuse to demonstrate live for fear of exposure. Can't make money trading? May as well try to make some money from those who are less informed.

 

I don't necessarily agree with you, MM, and I don't necessarily agree with Steve46 either, on this topic.

 

If the conversation could be kept to a rational state of affairs, without the name calling and in-kind retorts, I would almost be inclined to start a thread on this issue, but because of the egos and high stakes, I resist the temptation to investigate this important issue. The risk-to-reward ratio makes such a thread a very poor choice of discussion!

 

My own experience has taught me that indeed it is possible for me to make money trading. It's just that I am probably not using enough of my capital to trade with (and I probably won't until I become more consistent) to make me a more cheerful participant ...

 

My reasoning then goes like this: "If Ingot54 can make a few good trades, then why can't others also do it, but do it better, for higher stakes, and run their trades a little longer?"

 

The truth I believe, is that they can do it better than I can.

I believe Steve is trading profitably, and I also believe Mighty Mouse has a strong point - that rumours of great success may have been embellished with the sauces of hind-sight at times, to keep the dinner guests gushing a little about how good the chef is.

 

Of course when you taste a decent dinner, you really are not thinking about the chef - you are focused on the food. No one wants the chef to be waving and gesturing that he is the one who did the cooking. And no one wants to be sitting at the table when a guest keeps demanding to see if that chef really is the one who did the cooking, or whether the food came from Woolworths!

 

This is why I believe that requests to "show proof" are destined to fail to achieve an objective, but succeed in raising the ire of the target. Any discussion on this issue can only go one way - into melt-down, and destruction of forum relationships that are currently the best in the world on TL.

 

For this reason I don't think I need to see proof of success - it would not assist my own trading. What would help me is to hook up to a trading "mechanic" who can see how I start my trading car, put it in gear and drive it. Or who can be truthful with me and tell me I am driving a "clunker."

 

My mechanic might even come along for the ride in my trading car, and offer pointers about why I am crashing out on bends, and also show me how to reach top speed in the straights, without crashing out on the bends that loom out of the low-lying foggy patches on the journey.

 

The mechanic would also help tune the engine so it is running more sweetly.

 

What I have described could be likened to the activities of a decent coach.

Rarely will a coach tune a "car" out of good-will - but some will, because they simply love motor vehicles, and they love to see "drivers" get the best out of their chosen "vehicle."

 

Optiontimer I believe is one trading "mechanic" who is putting together an "engine" and a decent "vehicle" with the assistance of the apprentices who are learning the "motor trade."

 

See the thread, and follow along: http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/9925-trend-momentum-indicators-choice-ii-2.html#post121696

 

This kind of activity strikes a much better chord with me than do statements of success, proof of ability, and rumours that there is a lot of rice in China.

 

I want to see how that rice got there, and I want to drive one of the trucks that bring some of that rice to the stock-pile.

 

Follow the thinking? That way I will be able to improve on what I am already doing, and to me that little bit may just mean I can achieve the objective that attracted me to learn trading the financial markets 7+ years ago.

 

And do it without ego getting in the way. Ego is a very overweight passenger.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Ingot54

[MightyMouse 12]

I don't necessarily agree with you, MM, and I don't necessarily agree with Steve46 either, on this topic.

 

If the conversation could be kept to a rational state of affairs, without the name calling and in-kind retorts, I would almost be inclined to start a thread on this issue, but because of the egos and high stakes, I resist the temptation to investigate this important issue. The risk-to-reward ratio makes such a thread a very poor choice of discussion!

 

My own experience has taught me that indeed it is possible for me to make money trading. It's just that I am probably not using enough of my capital to trade with (and I probably won't until I become more consistent) to make me a more cheerful participant ...

 

My reasoning then goes like this: "If Ingot54 can make a few good trades, then why can't others also do it, but do it better, for higher stakes, and run their trades a little longer?"

 

The truth I believe, is that they can do it better than I can.

I believe Steve is trading profitably, and I also believe Mighty Mouse has a strong point - that rumours of great success may have been embellished with the sauces of hind-sight at times, to keep the dinner guests gushing a little about how good the chef is.

 

Of course when you taste a decent dinner, you really are not thinking about the chef - you are focused on the food. No one wants the chef to be waving and gesturing that he is the one who did the cooking. And no one wants to be sitting at the table when a guest keeps demanding to see if that chef really is the one who did the cooking, or whether the food came from Woolworths!

 

This is why I believe that requests to "show proof" are destined to fail to achieve an objective, but succeed in raising the ire of the target. Any discussion on this issue can only go one way - into melt-down, and destruction of forum relationships that are currently the best in the world on TL.

 

For this reason I don't think I need to see proof of success - it would not assist my own trading. What would help me is to hook up to a trading "mechanic" who can see how I start my trading car, put it in gear and drive it. Or who can be truthful with me and tell me I am driving a "clunker."

 

My mechanic might even come along for the ride in my trading car, and offer pointers about why I am crashing out on bends, and also show me how to reach top speed in the straights, without crashing out on the bends that loom out of the low-lying foggy patches on the journey.

 

The mechanic would also help tune the engine so it is running more sweetly.

 

What I have described could be likened to the activities of a decent coach.

Rarely will a coach tune a "car" out of good-will - but some will, because they simply love motor vehicles, and they love to see "drivers" get the best out of their chosen "vehicle."

 

Optiontimer I believe is one trading "mechanic" who is putting together an "engine" and a decent "vehicle" with the assistance of the apprentices who are learning the "motor trade."

 

See the thread, and follow along: http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/9925-trend-momentum-indicators-choice-ii-2.html#post121696

 

This kind of activity strikes a much better chord with me than do statements of success, proof of ability, and rumours that there is a lot of rice in China.

 

I want to see how that rice got there, and I want to drive one of the trucks that bring some of that rice to the stock-pile.

 

Follow the thinking? That way I will be able to improve on what I am already doing, and to me that little bit may just mean I can achieve the objective that attracted me to learn trading the financial markets 7+ years ago.

 

And do it without ego getting in the way. Ego is a very overweight passenger.

 

Ingot,

 

My post was a statement in fact. If the person that it was directed toward doesn't like it, there is little i can do because he is the one who created the fact. As part of the deal, I risked exposure too. The truth about me would have been learned. I cannot change fact and I can direct you to the posts where the refusals were made.

 

I do not believe for a moment that one needs to prove he is a guru to teach trading. Every book we have read have been written by a non-guru and all the material you absorb helps shape you. A teacher needs to be able to teach in order to teach you. If he can trade and not teach, then you will learn nothing other than the fact that you can't do what he does.

 

However, when someone insists that he is of guru status, and is constantly being critical of others, well then let us see first hand the reason why he believes he deserve guru status. It is a reasonable request and a requirement in my mind if he is inclined to place himself in that status and give others the status of pretender.

 

Lastly, Ingot, there is only a marginal difference between you and a trader who has survived trading for 20 or 30 years. Money doesn't fall out of the market for that trade either.

 

MM

[thalestrader 14]

Ingot,

 

My post was a statement in fact. If the person that it was directed toward doesn't like it, there is little i can do because he is the one who created the fact. As part of the deal, I risked exposure too. The truth about me would have been learned. I cannot change fact and I can direct you to the posts where the refusals were made.

 

I do not believe for a moment that one needs to prove he is a guru to teach trading. Every book we have read have been written by a non-guru and all the material you absorb helps shape you. A teacher needs to be able to teach in order to teach you. If he can trade and not teach, then you will learn nothing other than the fact that you can't do what he does.

 

However, when someone insists that he is of guru status, and is constantly being critical of others, well then let us see first hand the reason why he believes he deserve guru status. It is a reasonable request and a requirement in my mind if he is inclined to place himself in that status and give others the status of pretender.

 

Lastly, Ingot, there is only a marginal difference between you and a trader who has survived trading for 20 or 30 years. Money doesn't fall out of the market for that trade either.

 

MM

 

I see that MM's prior post has been deleted. Let us hope this one is allowed to stand.

 

I'd like to see TL return to putting the good of the community above the good of the paying vendors. I have no problem with such vendors peddling their wares here, so long as the TL community members are allowed to function as a sort of Consumer Reports for traders, examining the salesman's claims, which means that yes, we should be able to demand proof where such proof should reasonably be expected and given. I for one do not see where TL members ought to be "fish in a barrel" for these folks.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[thalestrader 14]

Optiontimer I believe is one trading "mechanic" who is putting together an "engine" and a decent "vehicle" with the assistance of the apprentices who are learning the "motor trade."

 

See the thread, and follow along: http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/technical-analysis/9925-trend-momentum-indicators-choice-ii-2.html#post121696

 

I for one will be watching optiontimer's thread with great interest. Thank you for sharing, Ingot54.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[MightyMouse 12]

I see that MM's prior post has been deleted. Let us hope this one is allowed to stand.

 

I'd like to see TL return to putting the good of the community above the good of the paying vendors. I have no problem with such vendors peddling their wares here, so long as the TL community members are allowed to function as a sort of Consumer Reports for traders, examining the salesman's claims, which means that yes, we should be able to demand proof where such proof should reasonably be expected and given. I for one do not see where TL members ought to be "fish in a barrel" for these folks.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

 

Wow! I didn't realize that my post was deleted. I suppose it wouldn't have been deleted if I praised the poster.

Hmm, so we can't criticize the criticizer.

 

But, glad to see you around again. I always enjoyed your posts.

[pitrader 10]

My cats breath smells like cat food.

[bobcollett 10]

Hi steve46

I hate to read flippant,silly replies to good threads but I cant resist my stupid reply

"Mighty Mouse is coming to get you"

regards

bobcollett

[MightyMouse 12]

Hi steve46

I hate to read flippant,silly replies to good threads but I cant resist my stupid reply

"Mighty Mouse is coming to get you"

regards

bobcollett

 

If it pisses someone off or makes someone laugh, then it was a well placed comment. Life goes on.

[steve46 12]

If it pisses someone off or makes someone laugh, then it was a well placed comment. Life goes on.

 

And for Thalestrader...my class has just started and after only a few weeks, we are still in the first stages of a curriculum last involves 14 modules...There is nothing to "prove" (except to my students) because unlike the chatrooms, mentorships, and greenlight buy/red light sell systems that many were naive enough to spend your capital on...I am interested in providing a comprehensive basic education....while I do trade and my students are welcome to try my methods, our process does not require them to do anything except pay attention while I demonstrate what to do...As we move through the curriculum they are going to see whether I can do this profitably because it is impossible to hide when you do it in front of a crowd of people...It either works or it does not (yesterday for example I had a difficult day)....those are the folks I care about not some nut case who is pissed off because I will not work with him ....read back throught the posts and you will see his adolescent attempts to get me to show him what I am doing....This isn't about protecting members...its about one person's (guess who) emtional issues...

Now I am NOT willing to work with MM because based on his behavior on this site, I view him as unsuitable to work within my class....I did offer an invitation to Negotiator and I may offer other invitations to members as I see fit...after all its my class, and I am responsible for the results...I think this may put things in a context that you can appreciate..

Edited June 25, 2011 by MadMarketScientist
no personal attacks please

[MightyMouse 12]

And if it is just stupid, thoughtless and off topic as you often are...life also goes on

 

And for Thalestrader...my class has just started and after only a few weeks, we are still in the first stages of a curriculum last involves 14 modules...There is nothing to "prove" (except to my students) because unlike the chatrooms, mentorships, and greenlight buy/red light sell systems that many of you were naive enough to spend your capital on...I am interested in providing a comprehensive basic education....while I do trade and my students are welcome to try my methods, our process does not require them to do anything except pay attention while I demonstrate what to do...As we move through the curriculum they are going to see whether I can do this profitably because it is impossible to hide when you do it in front of a crowd of people...It either works or it does not (yesterday for example I had a difficult day)....those are the folks I care about not some nut case who is pissed off because I will not work with him ....read back throught the posts and you will see his adolescent attempts to get me to show him what I am doing....This isn't about protecting members...its about one person's (guess who) emtional issues...

Now I am NOT willing to work with MM because based on his behavior on this site, I view him as unsuitable to work within my class....I did offer an invitation to Negotiator and I may offer other invitations to members as I see fit...after all its my class, and I am responsible for the results...I think this may put things in a context that you can appreciate..

 

Oh my! I feel so excluded. Gosh how can I get back into your good graces so you will let me into your coveted class? You live in a bubble.

 

Where else will i be able to learn how to say i am in a trade when it is already 5 pts in the money if you do not let me into your class? Ha ha ha ha.

 

I cut and pasted your post. Just in case MMS deletes.it. I want to make sure I can show it to my son.

Edited June 25, 2011 by MadMarketScientist
no personal attacks please

[MadMarketScientist 11]

Ok guys we are getting out of hand again. Can we stay on topic please? This thread had some good debate going but we are degenerating back into personal attacks so let's not head down that road.

 

Thales - I assure you there are no paid vendors on TL getting special treatment. I also encourage good debate on TL and if you ever feel like someone is getting preferential treatment come speak with me about it ok?

 

MightyMouse\steve46 - yes you can criticize the criticizer - but only his ideas, posts, articles ... but not him personally ok?

 

After you've all read this I want to delete these posts as they are distracting away from the original thread ... as others have mentioned (bobcollett) good threads can do without the noise.

 

Thanks everyone - let's keep TL a place people want to come to.

MMS

[thalestrader 14]

Of course when you taste a decent dinner, you really are not thinking about the chef - you are focused on the food. No one wants the chef to be waving and gesturing that he is the one who did the cooking. And no one wants to be sitting at the table when a guest keeps demanding to see if that chef really is the one who did the cooking, or whether the food came from Woolworths!

 

An overall excellent post - and this especially is an excellent analogy, Ingot54. I would only add that when the chef is waving and gesturing to all that he is the one who did the cooking, and he is at the same time offering you lessons in a cooking class, then one might forgive the dinner guest who insists on verifying that the chef did indeed prepare the meal before said guest forks over his tuition in the hope that he too might learn to cook as well as the chef, or at least better than said guest is currently able to cook, right?

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[thalestrader 14]

Thales - I assure you there are no paid vendors on TL getting special treatment. I also encourage good debate on TL and if you ever feel like someone is getting preferential treatment come speak with me about it ok?...Thanks everyone - let's keep TL a place people want to come to.MMS

 

You're starting to sound like a whole new MadMarketScientist. I think I'll call you MMSv2, or v2 for short. To tell you the truth, I wasn't a big fan of v1, at least in terms of operating TL. A nice enough guy, you understand, but he was no James.

 

But do try not to be so heavy handed with the censorship, ok? I agree that personal attacks, obscenities, and, of course, SPAM, ought to be struck from the TL record. But these little skirmishes give a bit of color and flesh out some internet characters, wouldn't you agree? Why not let them stand?

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[Ingot54 13]

But do try not to be so heavy handed with the censorship, ok?

I agree that personal attacks, obscenities, and, of course, SPAM, ought to

be struck from the TL record. But these little skirmishes give a bit of color and

flesh out some internet characters, wouldn't you agree? Why not let them stand?

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

I agree in principle with the sentiments Thales is expressing. It is well-known that there is a bit of history between MM and S46,

but they won't go too far with it because ultimately tit-for-tat is destructive to reputations ... self-destructive.

One or the other has something to lose by such a public display of ... "reciprocative mutual irritation" to coin a phrase!

 

When a response is ostensibly done in "defence," it is generally clear to everyone except that poster that the ego has been

chipped, and just a teeny bit of pay-back, or one-up-manship is at work in the inevitable reply.

 

But the line has to be drawn when it becomes personal, otherwise we risk descending into the insanity of that other major

forum that many of our new members are coming from, in droves.

 

And I don't think any of us want a bar of that. The last thing this forum needs is to start seeing suspensions and banning,

over issues that could just as easily have been allowed to go through to the keeper.

 

The high ground is always the safest.

[steve46 12]

I agree in principle with the sentiments Thales is expressing. It is well-known that there is a bit of history between MM and S46,

but they won't go too far with it because ultimately tit-for-tat is destructive to reputations ... self-destructive.

One or the other has something to lose by such a public display of ... "reciprocative mutual irritation" to coin a phrase!

 

When a response is ostensibly done in "defence," it is generally clear to everyone except that poster that the ego has been

chipped, and just a teeny bit of pay-back, or one-up-manship is at work in the inevitable reply.

 

But the line has to be drawn when it becomes personal, otherwise we risk descending into the insanity of that other major

forum that many of our new members are coming from, in droves.

 

And I don't think any of us want a bar of that. The last thing this forum needs is to start seeing suspensions and banning,

over issues that could just as easily have been allowed to go through to the keeper.

 

The high ground is always the safest.

 

I think sir, that you have misaken me for someone else...I have no history, except that of intolerance of fools, and to put it bluntly if someone wants to approach me with deception (as has happened recently), in order to get what they want...I am not going to smile sweetly and hand it over...Finally I will generally respond to personal attacks "in kind"...I have made that clear to Mark.

Now lets be clear about another issue. I have posted quite a lot of information here, and based on the page views I believe that I have helped quite a few traders to improve themselves. Clearly this is not the case for the other person you speak of... at some point I am going to ask myself why I need to put up with personal attacks. I can assure you it is not for personal gain..Again I refer you to Mark (as I have explained it to him completely and he has my permission to inform you)...I continue to try to help struggling traders (as is the title of one of my threads) as long as others will permit....

Good luck to you

Steve

Edited June 26, 2011 by steve46