Greece Going to Be OK Now?

[SIUYA 11]

you are correct Ingot - this is part to rile you up but also as part of a discussion....what I believe may not be what I think......so on that vein....

 

isn't there a bit of a disconnect here though.....

we want free markets, but then we want the government to bail us out - or ideally protect us from those more unscrupulous people who would fleece us from our money.

 

we want free markets but we complain when speculators act in already regulated markets

we want free markets and less regulation and when we get it we have the GFC.

 

We want democracy and all the power to be vested in us.....and yet generally/universally we already show ourselves to be incompetent when it comes to trading markets, managing our finances and money and generally able to rip up plenty ourselves......and we rile against giving power and authority to people who generally show they are competent in this regard.

 

We want the government to lock people up who do what - exactly what we encourage and incentivise them to do in the first place, and then we call for less regulation and yet with even less government regulation we will have even more incentives to look after ourselves.

 

We want less regulation and yet for markets to work efficiently we need trust in the systems that regulate the market participants to ensure that we as participants in the market do have measures of protection from dubious FX brokers for example....

 

We want free markets and the ability to create wealth, but then we want to be able to stop people who made their money from protecting it - we dont want those fat cats pulling strings in government in their favour.

 

We want everyone to be able to participate in the ability to progress and fullfull their destiny through hard work and brains, and yet we perpetuate the cult of celebrity and continue to have monarchs and dynastic families and wealth passed on through generations merely through luck of birth.

 

we want governments to provide services but we dont want to pay taxes.

We dont like it when others get rich and yet we want the ability to do it ourselves???

.........................

What in my opinion we need is a few simple things and these are whole other discussions....

- appropriate checks and balances to avoid the concentrations of power (seperation fo church, state, monetary authorities, ratings services not being paid by those who get rated etc

- white collar criminals and politicians having bigger financial penalties as well as jail when they are found guilty

- the one thing that should be regulated - which would solve a lot of issues - is the amount of leverage allowed to anyone (this would at least restrict the collapses a little)(and while this may impinge on your freedoms it is a simple measure of keeping excesses down and still rewarding risk taking but not allowing excessive risk taking)

- proper accounting where by you cant hide in off balance sheet vehicles, creative accounting becomes a crime in itself and where ....which helps lead to

- proper accountability both for government and corporate executives where failure is ok but you are not rewarded for it

 

and thats probably the best we can get as there is always that fine line of reward for risk v penalities for excessive risk taking etc etc.

[Ingot54 13]

Before the GFC, countries like Greece, Italy, Ireland ... and states like California, Delaware, Minnesota 50 States in Debt - The Daily Beast seemed to be well under the radar.

 

But something has occurred that had little to do with Wall Street's criminality and deceitfulness, and more to do with the US Fed Reserve's policy to destroy the greenback's value in order to repay their fiscal irresponsibility.

 

It's not just about the USA any more. The USA has used money printing to export inflation via rocketing commodity prices to any and all countries that are nett importers of food and essential commodities and energy. nakedempire: 'How the world paid the hidden cost of America's quantitative easing'

 

The rising prices of metals, energy, food and other softs has touched countries who have had little to do with derivative gambling, and made it all but impossible for them to survive even the smallest crisis. One of the biggest disasters unfolding right now as we sit in our comfort chairs and stare at our computer screens, in the horn of Africa. Africa Drought Sparks Food Shortage, Child Hunger and Humanitarian Crisis - Save the Children

 

Kind of makes you choke a bit on your meat and 3 veg, doesn't it?

 

But when we have the kind of brains managing the debt of the most powerful country on earth - the wealthiest (are we still sure?) country on earth, this is the result.

 

Your "we want" points above were certainly not wasted on me, Siuya - I agree with many of them - not all - but the list paints a picture of selfishness on one hand, yet a desire (and a despair) for fairness and survival on the other.

 

People like me are always going to bite on these issues, because we are too altruistic and less realistic than is good for us. My pink hide is far to thin and transparent for me to ever be a politician, unless that dynasty of which I would take a part was ruled by a fair and honest authority. That does not make me any more fair and honest than anyone else on earth - we are all hurting in some way - but it would give people like me a framework from which to launch assistance to both the enterprising and the welfare dependent.

 

At the moment, both groups are being neglected in favour of the greedy - which has nothing to do with enterprise and entrepreneurship.

 

So it is hard to see Greece "being ok now" when the US continues to pursue Quantitative Easing as a get-out-of-gaol policy. I believe history will not be kind to these fed Reserve people, nor the FOMC members. They are delivering the world into the hands of people who pull strings ... at no cost!

 

I have to leave this here at the moment, but to nurture your insight, here is a Ron Paul / Ben Bernanke exchange from yesterday.

 

Doesn't exactly make me feel warm and fuzzy to see Bernanke in the wheelhouse! He doesn't seem to have much of a clue about money printing and gold, does he?

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NJnL10vZ1Y]‪Ron Paul vs Bernanke: Is Gold Money? - July 13, 2011‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

[SIUYA 11]

Before the GFC, countries like Greece, Italy, Ireland ... and states like California, Delaware, Minnesota seemed to be well under the radar.

 

irrelevant......if it was ultimately going to catch up with them because they spent and borrowed too much then being under the radar is no excuse, fiscal irresponsibility is still irresponsibility weather you are too big to fail or too small to worry about and hence under the radar

 

But something has occurred that had little to do with Wall Street's criminality and deceitfulness, and more to do with the US Fed Reserve's policy to destroy the greenback's value in order to repay their fiscal irresponsibility.

 

yes - those that are in the most trouble under the radar are being focused on because those above the radar have their own problems and can no longer bail them out in the normal way - now understand this - prior to the government led bailouts the markets and the local constituents/government bailed these countries/states out through their continual and irresponsible spending, its just that when the musical chairs stopped, not only were there a few chairs short in the room, the remaining chairs were made of paper not wood.....because fiscal irresponsibility is still irresponsibility

 

It's not just about the USA any more. The USA has used money printing to export inflation via rocketing commodity prices to any and all countries that are nett importers of food and essential commodities and energy. nakedempire: 'How the world paid the hidden cost of America's quantitative easing'

 

ok, so China and India which have growth above 9% growing populations and 1/3 the worlds population has nothing to with fueling prices?

While the pricing of many commodities is in USD, and the US is protecting its own interests with a weaker USD, however how is this such a problem unless you peg your own local currency to the USD? We in Australia have deflationary pressures from the USD falling the AUD rising..... these excuses etc are largely a result of local politicians blaming others for thier own lack of planning and irresponsibility. Did they not realise that their local populations were growing, did they not realise they might have such a problem, have they not heard of peak oil?.....when it comes to economics there is no one size fits all model that we like to think, there are many factors that cause local inflation and local issues.... Many local famines are more a direct result of drought, corruption, wars.

Commodity prices were in massive deflationary periods while the world population and demand has grown.....added to the fact that investors now view commodities as an asset class, then simple demand and supply is more likely to give the reasons for commodity price rises....not just because the US is printing money....this is a factor but a too easy excuse

 

 

The rising prices of metals, energy, food and other softs has touched countries who have had little to do with derivative gambling, and made it all but impossible for them to survive even the smallest crisis. One of the biggest disasters unfolding right now as we sit in our comfort chairs and stare at our computer screens, in the horn of Africa. Africa Drought Sparks Food Shortage, Child Hunger and Humanitarian Crisis - Save the Children

 

what - these things did not exist before currency markets and international trading....? while i understand your pink insides, I too have a heart but lets not confuse the issues with emotional items that blur

 

But when we have the kind of brains managing the debt of the most powerful country on earth - the wealthiest (are we still sure?) country on earth, this is the result. ..........

 

So it is hard to see Greece "being ok now" when the US continues to pursue Quantitative Easing as a get-out-of-gaol policy. I believe history will not be kind to these fed Reserve people, nor the FOMC members. They are delivering the world into the hands of people who pull strings ... at no cost!

 

interesting point about brains - who is it that caused the problems, is it the central banks, or us (the chicken and egg question) we let it happen, we encouraged it and actively encouraged it, and will continue to do so as being humans we will generally defer future gains for present gratification....are not the central bankers trying to just clean up our mess, and the real debate should be is are they doing a good job, or should we be left to our own devices??.......because you know that history shows us that depressions and other financial disasters that let the markets collapse usually see the rich remaining richer while the rest of society suffer.

Greece was irresponsible, and as they seemed to be more irresponsible than most and as they are smaller of course they suffer......it seems like you are advocating a Greece bailout and the status quo?

 

Plus who exactly are these mysterious persons who pull the strings? are these the same people that encourage free markets only to allow us to enslave ourselves?

Is there a better system, or ideally should we try and improve the current system?

Is life simply just not fair and it becomes a numbers game were some win and some loose?

or are conspiracy theories, blame games and fist pumping just another way for us to placate our own inabilities to prosper from the current system ?

 

(Ingot (and any others) - I am sure you understand my questions are to provoke thought, and also realise that if you say black, i will say white, if you say white I will say black - thats what discussions are about )

[Tams 20]

Moody's warns Greek default almost certain

 

By Ingrid Melander and George Georgiopoulos

 

 

ATHENS — Moody's cut Greece's credit rating further into junk territory on Monday and said it was almost certain to slap a default tag on its debt as a result of a new EU rescue package.

 

It was the second rating agency to warn of a default after euro zone leaders and banks agreed last week that the private sector would shoulder part of the burden of a rescue deal that offers Greece more cash and easier loan terms to keep it afloat and avoid further contagion.

 

 

 

Moody's warns Greek default almost certain - Business - Stocks & economy - msnbc.com

[TheNegotiator 13]

Wow, I can't actually believe this debacle is still dragging on! The fact that months later and this still hasn't gone away makes me wonder about the other piigs again and whether or not they truly are 'okay'.

[TheNegotiator 13]

........and still it continues.

 

So the Greek people are apparently so fed up of Europe that the neo nazi "golden dawn" party are actually gaining in their popularity. That kind of reminds me of something as does there party emblem:- golden dawn wiki

 

Really though, what is this about? Money flowing to and remaining with the uber-rich minority. I say to Greece, completely default. The system is poor and you don't fit in with it. Being in Europe is meant to be beneficial. Just don't give in to ridiculous ideas of GD!! :helloooo:

[Obsidian 10]

........and still it continues.

 

So the Greek people are apparently so fed up of Europe that the neo nazi "golden dawn" party are actually gaining in their popularity. That kind of reminds me of something as does there party emblem:- golden dawn wiki

 

Really though, what is this about? Money flowing to and remaining with the uber-rich minority. I say to Greece, completely default. The system is poor and you don't fit in with it. Being in Europe is meant to be beneficial. Just don't give in to ridiculous ideas of GD!! :helloooo:

 

apparently not beneficial for Mediterranean countries