Greece Going to Be OK Now?

[TheNegotiator 13]

So it looks like the Greeks have agreed a 5yr austerity plan to fix their economy. I would really want to see some details if I were a H/F manager with multi millions on the line. But it certainly seems to be just the tonic for stocks today.

 

IF it is what it looks like, my question is how long before we all forget this and realise there's a whole lot more wrong with the system? Or will it be back to buying the Fed?

[SIUYA 11]

see......http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/stock-trading-laboratory/9945-i-think-i-made-rookie-mistake.html

for a similar take on Greece

[MadMarketScientist 11]

European Central Bank (ECB) President Jean-Claude Trichet said the Greek situation is now "code red." But this shouldn't be news to anyone ... just look at the Rydex CurrencyShares Euro Trust ETF

 

 

There is definitely a lot more wrong with the whole situation. I read ECB officials are trying to negotiate a deal where some of Greece's major creditors (large European banks) would extend loans at lower future interest rates because many people have purchased credit default swaps on Greek sovereign debt and a default would be BAD. People like JPMorgan, who's fell as much as 2.4% today.

 

I'm pretty sure the ECB will do as the Americans and try to paper over the sovereign defaults of Greece, Spain, and Italy. This should take the euro down to less than par with the U.S. dollar.

 

MMS

[BlowFish 10]

So it is fixable then, I guess they are fortunate then? To contrast the US national debt goes up by 4 billion a day (and has been for years) which makes the UK's trillion (total) seem paltry. I obviously don't understand macro economics but I wonder what these nations need to do to get junk status?

[SIUYA 11]

So it is fixable then, I guess they are fortunate then? To contrast the US national debt goes up by 4 billion a day (and has been for years) which makes the UK's trillion (total) seem paltry. I obviously don't understand macro economics but I wonder what these nations need to do to get junk status?

 

more importantly why is it that people keep trying to buy them and support their underlying flawed policies.....I guess macro is the same as day trading - some people just dont know when to cut losses, trade quantities beyond their capitalized base and then eventually when it all goes wrong look back shake their heads and say next time I will do it better.

The greater fool theory works in all aspects of the markets its just that the times frames are often different and the excuses vary - the reasons for the problems and the consequences are often the same.

 

Remember the Asian bond/currency crisis back in 1997, the markets were aware of the issues for months, and then one day the equity markets cracked. they bounced back quickly but at the time, they were in an uptrend and we did not have the issues the world has today.....so at some stage the musical chairs may stop. but the bounce may not be as good. As I understand it however, there is a a lot of cash sitting around at present, so maybe there are some wary people out there. The scary thing is if there is real contagion - I would be more worried about Italy and the European banks.

 

the one nice thing is that it can actually be reasonably and surprisingly easy to fix these spending deficit imbalances over short periods of time - I read a great macro economic paper years ago before these things were seemingly an issue (I never saved the paper) and they showed how quickly things can be turned around. Unfortunately it takes the will of the people and the politicians to do so, and that is not happening anywhere.

[MadMarketScientist 11]

Well the market is focused on Greece now. The crisis will play out one of two ways, Greece could reject the proposed austerity cuts, default on its debt,and destroy the European Union and the euro.

 

Or, the more likely scenario, major holders of Greek debt (the European banks) will "extend and pretend" and roll over their Greek debt. The French banks already rolled over about $30 billion of Greek debt. And we all know "extending and pretending" debts doesn't change any of the fundamental issues.

 

MMS

[TheNegotiator 13]

Greek parliament vote for austerity measures passes 155-138. Anyone else see this as surprisingly close given their current situation?

[Ingot54 13]

Greek parliament vote for austerity measures passes 155-138. Anyone else see this as surprisingly close given their current situation?

The market thought this was always going to happen - the event was a nothing-to-see here-move-along event.

 

Chuck Butler of the Daily Pfennig had this to say tonight:

 

And the 200 lb gorilla in the corner (China)' date=' is coming out of the corner to let everyone know that they believe in the Eurozone, and the euro, and will continue to support them.

 

Following up on his comments earlier this week, Chinese Premier, Wen Jiabao, (Wen) said that:

 

"The difficulties that have appeared in Europe are temporary.

As long as financial reforms and adjustments continue, the difficulties can be gradually overcome.

At Europe's time of difficulty, we reached out a helping hand.

We expressed confidence in Europe's economy and confidence in the euro.

We have also said that we will buy a certain amount of sovereign debt from some countries, according to needs."

 

Well. As long as he's not blowing smoke in our faces. That's the kind of stuff that helps a region like the Eurozone. and its currency, the euro.[/quote'] So I guess the speculators that count (if you don't know who that is, it's not you) already "knew" that regardless of what the vote was, China was standing behind the keeper with a very large mitt.

 

Business as usual.

 

Now ... what to do about those pesky demonstrators ... you know the ones - those that are going to have to tighten their belts further - higher utility charges, pension and benefit cuts, higher taxation and duties and excise, surcharges on this-and-that ... yada yada.

 

I am looking at this as a dry run for when the circus is playing in a neighbourhood near mine ... probably sooner than one imagines. Australia has gone from factoring in a rates rise, to factoring in no rates rise, to probably factoring in a rates cut before Christmas.

 

Who knows? For those of you who still believe in prayer - remember the Greek people kindly - this was not of their making entirely. They didn't see it coming any more than we can currently see what is ahead for us.

[SIUYA 11]

so who are the guys in Greece that are protesting on the street - those who dont want to pay taxes, or those that want someone else to pay for their lifestyle, or maybe they are actually just protesting that the government is corrupt and so paying taxes is a waste of time.

[Ingot54 13]

so who are the guys in Greece that are protesting on the street - those who dont want to pay taxes, or those that want someone else to pay for their lifestyle, or maybe they are actually just protesting that the government is corrupt and so paying taxes is a waste of time.

It's ironic, Siuya, but Greece, the so-called "Cradle of Democracy" has a very active Communist Party these days, and it is they who are whipping up hysteria against the austerity measures.

 

And for good reason - for once, I happen to agree with the Communists.

 

What Greeks are fighting for, is their very sovereignty. This is what happens when the Money Power gets control of politicians, and a country spends its way into irreversible debt. They say that it's ok - spend what you like - we'll loan it to you (through the beloved banks) - all you need to do is keep making interest payments.

 

One day when the loans can be rolled over no more, and the partial payments no longer satisfy the debt interest, the Money Power begin to do what they are now doing in Greece - demanding their money. Those Greek politicians, bankers, financiers who organised to take on these loans (via the Bond Market capital raisings) are now feeling the pointy end of the stick. The piper is at the door, demanding to be paid.

 

So the Greeks are being told that unless they pay up, certain things will happen. Only as the populace see it, nothing will happen, except they will be poorer.

 

But for the politicians, they worry about being kicked out of the EU - oh! the ignominy!

And the EU worries that it will lose cred, and that other countries (Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal - there are others too) will also get the boot.

 

Can't have that, can we?

 

So the German and French architects of the Eurozone group, along with their darling currency, are putting the screws on Greece, to ensure they prop up the first domino. If Greece falls, it means the Money Power - the lenders in the Bond Market - will take a savage haircut. And this will be the tip of the iceberg - the mother of all haircuts - as the Bond markets of all of Europe, and the USA collapse.

 

Cheerful soul, aren't I?

 

Could it be that there is an agenda behind all of this - one that the Greek people are rejecting?

 

If Greece is forced to accept the bailouts, rather than taking the road to default and expulsion from the EU, then Greeks lose their sovereignty and freedom forever, because there is no way Greece can ever repay the interest, the principle or the bailout. They will lose their way of life.

 

Is this what is in store for all of us?

 

The USA is bankrupt - Britain too. In fact, if the nations of the world had to repay their loans by tonight, could any? So who is behind all of the Bond markets of the world and the cheap money ... The World Bank? Central Banks? The IMF? The Illuminati? The Bilderbergs? The Money Power? The faceless Mafioso of the world? China? Your shadow?

 

When you stop laughing, there is something serious to face up to here, and that is that the sovereign nations of the world are in grave danger, and the path they are well advanced along, is the path to full globalisation and world government - the ultimate prize. The way they were white-anted ... money ... credit ... consumerism ... greed ... betrayal and treason ... I think we are truly looking at the end of an age here.

 

This is why Austrlia is going downhill too - no one is awake in the wheel-house: http://tinyurl.com/3du8bbl

 

This week the Australian Parliament passed into law, an act which allows the Australian Government to increase the foreign debt ceiling without explaining why.

 

This is exactly the reason that Greece is in trouble today - the wanton spending and waste of public money, and the endless consumption of credit, that one day must be repaid.

 

If a nation like Australia, with its vast agricultural land, its great fisheries, its endless mineral and energy resources, its magic tourism resources, and its stable political climate cannot exist without ratcheting up its debt levels during one of the biggest mining and resources booms of the past 200 years, then what hope have lesser nations who are producing nothing, and have no resources?

 

The Greeks have every right to be angry, but what of Australians who - just 22 million of us - have a government who have squandered multiple billions of dollars, that could have been saved.

 

Australians will one day be asking: "Is it going to be OK now?"

 

Do YOU ever see yourself taking to the streets to defend Australia against such?

 

I would ... I think!

[SIUYA 11]

i am confused ingot.

are you having a go at the people who lend the money and then demand repayment, or the Greeks (or whoever it may be) for living beyond their means?

 

regardless of both of those it seems that ultimately you are angling at a global parliament/government conspiracy....

maybe thats not such a bad thing?

Why do we have all these different regulatory issues, taxes, sovereignty rights, nationalism based on a border on a map, based on what....a river, a few hundred years of history, cultural back grounds? We can allow open markets for some things and not others and then complain when we seemingly are at a disadvantage. Maybe its a good thing to get rid of all the various governments of the world as it seems most people dont want them, have little trust in them and think they are corrupt. It might save some money, inefficiencies and actually be a better representation of democracy..... and is democracy such a good thing anyway?

 

clearly these are all just questions, but the original question remains - and if its as you suggest - the Communists - highly likely..... then they had their little social experiment in the 20th century and it was a dismal failure...not just for the millions they killed.....so its best to ignore the protesters......they should have voted in the recent elections

 

Now I love a good conspiracy - but what if there is none, what if its just a natural course of human events, and no matter what set of rules we have, we will ultimately end in the same spot?

Have you seen the South Park episode - mystery of the Urinal Deuce.....

 

(end of financial year here in Australia - so a few wines over a nice lunch while the institutions rebalance their portfolios for their end of year performances allows the conspiracy theories to flow....and yes, i exercise my right to protest every election )

[Ingot54 13]

i am confused ingot.

are you having a go at the people who lend the money and then demand repayment, or the Greeks (or whoever it may be) for living beyond their means?

 

regardless of both of those it seems that ultimately you are angling at a global parliament/government conspiracy....

maybe thats not such a bad thing?

Why do we have all these different regulatory issues, taxes, sovereignty rights, nationalism based on a border on a map, based on what....a river, a few hundred years of history, cultural back grounds? We can allow open markets for some things and not others and then complain when we seemingly are at a disadvantage. Maybe its a good thing to get rid of all the various governments of the world as it seems most people dont want them, have little trust in them and think they are corrupt. It might save some money, inefficiencies and actually be a better representation of democracy..... and is democracy such a good thing anyway?

 

clearly these are all just questions, but the original question remains - and if its as you suggest - the Communists - highly likely..... then they had their little social experiment in the 20th century and it was a dismal failure...not just for the millions they killed.....so its best to ignore the protesters......they should have voted in the recent elections

 

Now I love a good conspiracy - but what if there is none, what if its just a natural course of human events, and no matter what set of rules we have, we will ultimately end in the same spot?

Have you seen the South Park episode - mystery of the Urinal Deuce.....

 

(end of financial year here in Australia - so a few wines over a nice lunch while the institutions rebalance their portfolios for their end of year performances allows the conspiracy theories to flow....and yes, i exercise my right to protest every election )

No need for confusion ... but probably a need for me to illustrate what I intended to say a little more clearly.

 

On the local/domestic scene, your deposits in your bank are actually a liability for them, so they have to get rid of cash, and "get it out there" into mortgages and infrastructure development projects (National Broadband Network was a godsend) earning interest.

 

Under our fractional reserve banking system, your cash and my cash only interests banks for one reason - they can re-lend 10 times more than is deposited.

 

If I "lend" my bank $40,000 by depositing cash at 6%, the bank can then lend that $40,000 10 times, and earn 8% on $400,000. So they earn $32,000 pa on their loans to clients ("assets", and pay me $2,400 interest. Of course, by the time they add their "loan establishment fees" and "account-keeping fees" the actual figures look much better for banks.

 

Let's step out and about now, and over in Brussells, the banks have been lending rather heavily to one particular client ... Greece. Now while the interest payments are being met, the banks don't have problem ... and neither do the extrapolated form of domestic banks, the Bond markets.

 

But the minute someone defaults on an interest payment, then hellooo ... someone has a problem. When you are owed as much as Greece owes, then it is not Greece that has the problem - it is the Bond holder.

 

Personally I am on the side of the Greek people. I don't think they should pay. This was NOT of their making - any more than the sub-prime mortgage crash was of your making or mine. Collectively, you might build a case where the Greek people lived beyond their means - indeed - but who pushed them and who lent them that money?

 

I concede that the people who are in trouble with debt have only themselves to blame. I have been warning my kids and my friends now for about 5 years, to work towards getting out of debt - totally debt-free. My kids are, and use debit cards, not credit cards. We all have to live within our means ... but that's another essay!

 

But I blame politicians and bankers for the Greek mess. The blame lies squarely on their shoulders for making promises, getting into national projects and so on, that was far beyond the means of the country to pay.

 

I think those who pushed the fractional reserve "funny money" onto the Greek people should be the ones to take the losses. Why should they be protected? When do the people ever get a win? Bond Investors are speculators ... why should they always win?

 

If the crash is allowed to occur (a default) then rebuilding can go ahead, and pretty soon the pain is over, and people can get on with their lives as "normal" - raising and educating their kids and so on.

 

If you think that is too hard to bear - just look at examples from the near past ... Russia, Argentina, Iceland ... Iceland Shows Default Doesn

 

The sky did not fall because of a default - the debt disappeared. And if all of these countries default, then life will go on. In fact nothing will happen - the sun will rise tomorrow. The fact is that when there is a surplus of money, it has to find a home. And that "home" will be where there is a need to capitalise a project. Sometimes investors take a loss ... hey! ... get over it!

 

The cycle resumes and continues.

 

I belong in the camp of those who think that the GFC should have been allowed to run its natural course. Too many governments socialising the debts of their Wall Street (and other streets) mates, but privatising the profits. Either way, the people are the losers. Too willingly have we swallowed the line that the world would have collapsed into a gaping depression that would not end for years (think of your own number of years - the reporters did.)

 

So yes, I think the Greek people deserve a little slack here. If they go ahead with this bailout and austerity measures, then they enslave themselves for the better part of this century - if not forever. No wonder they are fighting it.

 

By the way, Greece owes LESS than some of the states of the USA!

 

Why aren't these facts out in the headlines??

 

The truth is out there, but I lean towards a conspiracy ... yes ... it fits in with some sort of global domination plan. I don't like your scenario though ... remember what they say about absolute power, and corruption?

 

Those "few hundred years of history" might sound benign to you, but remember there are people who lost their lives defending those arbitrary borders. They are not going to hand it over for a hand full of coloured beads to some far off global consortium who tells them the new world order has their best interests at heart.

 

The ultimate goal is slavery, and nothing will make me waver from that belief.

I like to follow trends, and the "trend" is NOT towards more freedom, is it?

 

On that basis you might find me easy to dismiss with my odd beliefs, and that's ok too - I don't thrive because I am right, or shrink if I am wrong. I just never saw an honest banker, honest politician, honest lawyer ... and strangely, these are the very people who are shaping our future.

[SIUYA 11]

Dont worry Ingot - I dont think you are too much of a kook, and in the interests of an enjoyable fun discussion I am just pushing your buttons....

Personally I am more of an anarchist....or maybe not

 

what you are talking about is moral hazard - and that is what the governments by bailing people out have done. Haven't you heard the old one - borrow 1 million dollars, you cant repay, you are in trouble...borrow 100million, cant repay the bank is in trouble....maybe that should be changed to the tax payer is in trouble.

 

But you have to blame the people who borrow just as much as those that push the borrowings. Otherwise, why dont you go and borrow a truck load and say too bad to the lenders.

 

He is the other thing.....and this is something the last great depression shows us and why the central banks have gone down the road they did.....if they did not where would/might we be? The closest thing we have to compare is the great depression...single individual countries as a comparison dont rate as a fair comparison when we are talking about the risk of these two big to fail issues.

"By the way, Greece owes LESS than some of the states of the USA!

 

Why aren't these facts out in the headlines??"...........they are, but you have to compare like for like, and the USA while still having problems was not to the extreme of Greeces,

plus often its not got to do just with debt, its to do with if you can organise repayments, renegotiations, and if you can repay and have other still lend you money....as an example there are plenty of companies that were good that go broke with poor cash flow issues.

 

""The ultimate goal is slavery, and nothing will make me waver from that belief.

I like to follow trends, and the "trend" is NOT towards more freedom, is it? ""

 

Depends on your time frame and who you think you are a slave to - we have more freedoms around the world than in most history, you dont need to go back to far to see what Europe was like......and for the vast majority of people we clearly have healthier, longer living, and more freer lives....we just have a different slave master maybe.... consumerism ??? and debt helps us feed that ????

 

"" I just never saw an honest banker, honest politician, honest lawyer ... and strangely, these are the very people who are shaping our future.""

 

thats a bit harsh....I would think there are plenty of honest ones, its just that they are incentivised and encouraged to follow self interest (as are you) and they are not penalised if they fail (the moral hazard!).....it does not make them dishonest. The ones who bend the rules or push them as they exist...no matter the rules often benefit the most from them, OR what about those that fight the rules, often they are the terrorists, the dissidents until possibly they become the freedom fighters and the liberators....then they usually become the slave masters and the cycle begins.

 

and its ironic isn't it that you and i choose to participate in the very world that allows us all that freedom and access to markets.

[Ingot54 13]

Dont worry Ingot - I dont think you are too much of a kook, and in the interests of an enjoyable fun discussion I am just pushing your buttons....

Personally I am more of an anarchist....or maybe not

 

what you are talking about is moral hazard - and that is what the governments by bailing people out have done. Haven't you heard the old one - borrow 1 million dollars, you cant repay, you are in trouble...borrow 100million, cant repay the bank is in trouble....maybe that should be changed to the tax payer is in trouble.

 

But you have to blame the people who borrow just as much as those that push the borrowings. Otherwise, why dont you go and borrow a truck load and say too bad to the lenders.

 

He is the other thing.....and this is something the last great depression shows us and why the central banks have gone down the road they did.....if they did not where would/might we be? The closest thing we have to compare is the great depression...single individual countries as a comparison dont rate as a fair comparison when we are talking about the risk of these two big to fail issues.

"By the way, Greece owes LESS than some of the states of the USA!

 

Why aren't these facts out in the headlines??"...........they are, but you have to compare like for like, and the USA while still having problems was not to the extreme of Greeces,

plus often its not got to do just with debt, its to do with if you can organise repayments, renegotiations, and if you can repay and have other still lend you money....as an example there are plenty of companies that were good that go broke with poor cash flow issues.

 

""The ultimate goal is slavery, and nothing will make me waver from that belief.

I like to follow trends, and the "trend" is NOT towards more freedom, is it? ""

 

Depends on your time frame and who you think you are a slave to - we have more freedoms around the world than in most history, you dont need to go back to far to see what Europe was like......and for the vast majority of people we clearly have healthier, longer living, and more freer lives....we just have a different slave master maybe.... consumerism ??? and debt helps us feed that ????

 

"" I just never saw an honest banker, honest politician, honest lawyer ... and strangely, these are the very people who are shaping our future.""

 

thats a bit harsh....I would think there are plenty of honest ones, its just that they are incentivised and encouraged to follow self interest (as are you) and they are not penalised if they fail (the moral hazard!).....it does not make them dishonest. The ones who bend the rules or push them as they exist...no matter the rules often benefit the most from them, OR what about those that fight the rules, often they are the terrorists, the dissidents until possibly they become the freedom fighters and the liberators....then they usually become the slave masters and the cycle begins.

 

and its ironic isn't it that you and i choose to participate in the very world that allows us all that freedom and access to markets.

Excellent reply Siuya - moderates my angst a tad!

 

I won't go on about it too much (I can be tedious) ... but this might be a good 10 minutes worth:

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGeR0PPNx4k]YouTube - ‪Cine Politics-"Inside Job" directed by Charles Ferguson-20-26-2011-(Part1)‬‏[/ame]

Edited June 30, 2011 by Ingot54
Swapped Video Link for better one

[MightyMouse 12]

i am confused ingot.

are you having a go at the people who lend the money and then demand repayment, or the Greeks (or whoever it may be) for living beyond their means?

 

regardless of both of those it seems that ultimately you are angling at a global parliament/government conspiracy....

maybe thats not such a bad thing?

Why do we have all these different regulatory issues, taxes, sovereignty rights, nationalism based on a border on a map, based on what....a river, a few hundred years of history, cultural back grounds? We can allow open markets for some things and not others and then complain when we seemingly are at a disadvantage. Maybe its a good thing to get rid of all the various governments of the world as it seems most people dont want them, have little trust in them and think they are corrupt. It might save some money, inefficiencies and actually be a better representation of democracy..... and is democracy such a good thing anyway?

 

clearly these are all just questions, but the original question remains - and if its as you suggest - the Communists - highly likely..... then they had their little social experiment in the 20th century and it was a dismal failure...not just for the millions they killed.....so its best to ignore the protesters......they should have voted in the recent elections

 

Now I love a good conspiracy - but what if there is none, what if its just a natural course of human events, and no matter what set of rules we have, we will ultimately end in the same spot?

Have you seen the South Park episode - mystery of the Urinal Deuce.....

 

(end of financial year here in Australia - so a few wines over a nice lunch while the institutions rebalance their portfolios for their end of year performances allows the conspiracy theories to flow....and yes, i exercise my right to protest every election )

 

I like the idea of a global government. The Global States of America. It has a good ring to it.

 

I think is should be clear to those who lent money to Greece that they cannot pay it back.

 

There are only a small hand full of times when a government has paid back dept and they were extraordinary circumstances; otherwise, they all defaulted on money they borrowed.

 

Early on the US failed to pay too but that is long forgotten.

[SIUYA 11]

ooohhh. just as one little extra to throw in the mix.....

democracy is not freedom.

 

(especially when you only have a choice of tyrants and no personal freedoms from those tyrants to vote for)

[Ingot54 13]

ooohhh. just as one little extra to throw in the mix.....

democracy is not freedom.

 

(especially when you only have a choice of tyrants and no personal freedoms from those tyrants to vote for)

True words Siuya.

 

The ABC had an interesting article this morning - no, not the one where the new treasury head said Australians must work harder - this one about Greece:

 

Greece clears way for bailout - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

Specifically poignant was this statement:

 

Antonis Samaras, head of the opposition New Democracy party which opposed the austerity bills, said measures would only delay default and further harm Greece's stricken economy, straining under the weight of a public debt equivalent to 150 per cent of gross domestic product.

 

"This treatment will not cure the patient," he told parliament before the vote. "I'm sorry because in a couple of months, you and the troika will realise the medicine has actually worsened the patient's health."

 

But in the meantime, Greece will have sold off E5billion of Public Assets.

 

"The government, which halted privatisation when it came to power, must sell off 5 billion euros in assets this year or risk missing the targets under its EU/IMF program, which would cut off funding again.

 

Funny that a Socialist Government (like Greece has) "halted privatisation when it came to power" is now being forced to privatise again.

 

Yet the Socialists in Queensland, and previously (before they were kicked out) NSW, were and are hell-bent on privatising - selling off assets like our railways and power stations, forestry plantations and the like.

 

Who are the true socialists? Or is this just a matter of policy on the run - expediency when it suits?

 

Is there a right and left, a right and wrong, anymore?

Is the right of politics distinguishable from the left?

Is the truth absolute? Or is it the Lawyers truth, the Banker's truth, the Politician's truth and the Economist's truth?

 

Does any of it matter - or are we just in a game with a means to a planned end?

 

One thing is certain in all of this, and that is the world is NOT a better place for all the intervention of the World Bank, Central bankers generally, or the IMF.

 

And regardless of whatever is done, the world is not getting to be a safer, better, more affluent or desirable place, unless you have disposable income, no debt and no commitments.

 

You see Greece today - then let's revisit this thread in 2 years time, and see who has been added to the list, and whether the action of bail-outs has been good for those countries or not.

 

When did Government intervention actually make ANY situation better?

 

To my list of Lawyers, Politicians, and Bankers, you can add Economists.

 

Would you like to be in business with any or all of them?

 

Good luck with that!

 

No wonder half the world is on antidepressants - they don't help either - the people have just been told they do ... lol! The Russians have the right idea - produce more Vodka, and use it ... medicinally of course!

[TheNegotiator 13]

Does it seem slightly suspect to you guys that each nation in Europe with debt issues, which seems to be taking care of its problems gets targeted then hammered into submission by the fact its debt spread widens to intolerable levels? What's really going on here? Is there some guy in a little room just pushing buttons? :missy: "Right, that's Greece. Now who deserves to get it? Ah, Italy...".:hmmmm: What will happen when Italy is forced into massive budget cuts and taking IMF/French-German/US/China and whoever else's money for a bailout? Well, let me take a wild guess. Spain will get it. Or some other Eurozone country. The way this is playing out is surely not just systematic problems propagating due to the last country being bailed out, causing the next to crumble? If it is, the global economy is much more fragile than I thought and we're probably only just seeing the start of the problems. But maybe like much in life, there's more to it than meets the eye.

[zdo 20]

Enough talking about it in talking head, media speak, and current economic paradigm terms!

Bluntly now

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3L2AO09KmM&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - ‪'Obama defaulted on US Constitution'‬‏[/ame]

Edited July 12, 2011 by zdo

[zdo 20]

Yes Greece is going to be OK now (snick snick) but

Italy Is Too Big To Bail, Even For France And Germany - Agustino Fontevecchia - Moral Hazard - Forbes

[SIUYA 11]

Does it seem slightly suspect to you guys that each nation in Europe with debt issues, which seems to be taking care of its problems gets targeted then hammered into submission by the fact its debt spread widens to intolerable levels? What's really going on here? Is there some guy in a little room just pushing buttons? :missy: "Right, that's Greece. Now who deserves to get it? Ah, Italy...".:hmmmm: What will happen when Italy is forced into massive budget cuts and taking IMF/French-German/US/China and whoever else's money for a bailout? Well, let me take a wild guess. Spain will get it. Or some other Eurozone country. The way this is playing out is surely not just systematic problems propagating due to the last country being bailed out, causing the next to crumble? If it is, the global economy is much more fragile than I thought and we're probably only just seeing the start of the problems. But maybe like much in life, there's more to it than meets the eye.

 

does it seem slightly suspect to you that these countries were allowed to borrow more than they could repay and that lenders and market ratings companies encouraged this in the first place.

That politicians pandered to the populace with promises that the average person fell for that we could all retire early without working and spend spend spend without care about when we repaid it.....

that banks and industry can lobby to get bailed out when in fact they probably should have been allowed to fail, or that we allowed sooooooo much leverage into a system that it was almost bound to cause problems as all over leveraged investsments eventually do.

Or that even as its seems universally accepted that Greece is unable to repay the debts, we still dont call it a default......

Humans, deny deny deny there is a problem until its too late.....then re band aid the problem and history repeats.

(dont worry I am not a doom, gloom merchant or a conspiracy theorist - this is just normal)

 

So no - to me its not suspect - the market is just being incredibly slow to recognise that the economies probably are more fragile, and when the penny drops everyone rushes around and tries to PYA (protect your ass) at the last minute as the hope and denial they had been hinging on evaporates....

[smlcap 10]

No.....Greece is not OK now. Neither is the EU. Sure, there will be some temporary patch work to keep some of these country's afloat. Kick the can down the road.

[Ingot54 13]

Does it seem slightly suspect to you that these countries were allowed to borrow more than they could repay and that lenders and market ratings companies encouraged this in the first place.

 

That politicians pandered to the populace with promises that the average person fell for that we could all retire early without working and spend spend spend without care about when we repaid it.....

 

that banks and industry can lobby to get bailed out when in fact they probably should have been allowed to fail, or that we allowed sooooooo much leverage into a system that it was almost bound to cause problems as all over leveraged investsments eventually do.

 

Or that even as its seems universally accepted that Greece is unable to repay the debts, we still dont call it a default......

 

Humans, deny deny deny there is a problem until its too late.....then re band aid the problem and history repeats. (Don't worry I am not a doom, gloom merchant or a conspiracy theorist - this is just normal)

 

So no - to me its not suspect - the market is just being incredibly slow to recognise that the economies probably are more fragile, and when the penny drops everyone rushes around and tries to PYA (protect your ass) at the last minute as the hope and denial they had been hinging on evaporates....

Exactly the right questions, Siuya.

 

Here's more:

 

Why did the IMF travel the world when the GFC began, telling EVERY nation that they had to go into debt (spend money they didn't have) by a multiple of their GDP - even nations that clearly were not involved directly in the crisis?

 

This, under the guise of "stimulus" and was largely unnecessary and useless as a panacea, but hugely successful as a muscle-flexing exercise by the International Monetary Fund and World bank. The Politicians and policy-makers of the world naively followed "instructions" to avoid a crisis - dazzled by the intellect and sheer "savant" of those "in control" of the situation.

 

Yeah.

 

Why do the central bankers think that as long as a nation is showing GDP "growth" then it is ok to increase debt?

 

Apparently the magic number "GDP" is the key that unlocks the door to borrowing - even when that GDP is a hollow number, propped up by false numbers by desperate treasury departments.

 

Bankers and Politicians have been shown to release false numbers (we used to call this "lying" when I was a small boy) to the markets on a regular basis, when it is clear to everyone who is following their antics, that the numbers are not stacking up, and are unsustainable.

 

The definition of "employment" is one hollow number that shows that a person can be claimed to be "employed" even if they are employed for ONE hour a week, and idle for the other 39 hours. Then the GDP uses this number of "employed" to construct the basis for working out how much GDP we will have, and thus how much debt we can service.

 

Clearly I am no economist, but according to the Ingot54 household records, we could not balance our weekly budget if we did it this way - how can whole nations do it? So if the Ingot54 household can not pay its debts, it is forced into bankruptcy, and after a cooling-off period of five years, may then get on with the business of running its household.

 

Last week the world was singing the praises of the Greek bail-out, while the Greek people were fighting for their very sovereign freedom.

 

This week Greek debt is rated as "junk" - bond yield spiked to 31%. November 2010: yield about 10%.

 

Italian debt rated as junk - this week bond yield spiked from 3% to 4.1% - Italy is the third biggest bond market IN THE WORLD, and Europe's 4th biggest economy. November 2010 yield: 2.5%

 

Irish debt rated as junk - bond yields spiked to 17.7%. November 2010 yield: 5.2%

 

Any traders see a useful pattern developing here?

 

People who are thinking about this need keep a couple of things in mind:

Iceland defaulted on its debt in 2008, and as a result its 3 biggest banks went into receivership.

Today Iceland is happily rebuilding, and is untouched by any sovereign debt crisis.

 

Secondly - the Central Bankers have too much power, and no idea what they are doing. Since 2008, they have printed money, borrowed money, bailed out bankrupt firms and generally thrown money at the problem until it is nothing but obscene.

 

Today, the US government is admitting that they have failed to stop the bleeding.

The European central bank has clearly no ideas either - the dominoes are falling, and can not be propped up. Italy is too big to be supported, and will be a bigger crisis than Greece, who have only 2.5% of the Euro economy.

 

The crash will come when they discover Italy can not be saved ... but this should be the turning point, as nations everywhere begin to realise that the best response is to allow the markets to work ... clean out the debt, bankrupt the bond-holders (speculators) and get on with running their national economies.

 

And they should then resolve never to allow a banker into the policy boardrooms of government ever again. Central banks have to go ... and go in national disgrace everywhere.

 

They have misled, lied and manipulated whole economies in order to shore up power they never should have had in the first place.

 

But let's not get too far ahead of ourselves ... Ireland will collapse before Italy, and without serious re-writing of the terms of association, the Eurozone will find itself a smoking train-wreck.

 

However, too many think that the world economy is recovering, so we still have a lot further to go before any real progress can be made towards accepting the bankruptcy of nations, and moving away from this silly bail-out mentality, that only further impoverishes and enslaves nations. (I quote Iceland as an example of a nation who said"no" to central bank "solutions" and survived. Russia also did it a couple of times, devaluing the Ruble etc in the 1990's. The sky is definitely still in place.)

 

They have to get the central banks out of their policy-making rooms, and put them back where they belong - outside their policy-making decisions.

They have to stop receiving "advice" from the IMF and World bank.

 

Bankers are plotters, and politicians are plotters. They are a very dangerous association when both are seated at the same table. You can be certain that the citizenry will not have their interests placed ahead of these two, now or ever.

 

Religion and Politics are said not to be a good mix.

 

Try Banking and Politics, and see whether that is any more palatable!

 

The whole scheme seems to be that if all the nations of the world are indebted (to whom do they owe this debt???) then all the nations of the world MUST then do the bidding of the entity to whom they "owe" this debt.

 

Any thoughts on who this "entity" might be, and why it is in "their" interests to keep pushing more and more debt as a solution, when clearly that has been shown to exacerbate the situation.

 

I have long said that the ultimate goal of the Money Power is to have the nations of the world living in "peace" in a "master-slave" relationship.

 

This can be brought about in one generation: firstly by gentle coercion using force of indebtedness, and later through "education of the generations following. Oh - a serious war or two might also occur, as the finishing touches are applied. But I doubt you want me to elaborate on that here.

 

Can be done in 40 years, and will then last a millennium.

 

But few others think so ... a few think it over the top ... a few others don't even think.

 

It is better to think ... and be wrong, than never to have thought at all!

 

Kind regards

 

Ingot |:^)

[SIUYA 11]

 

And they should then resolve never to allow a banker into the policy boardrooms of government ever again. Central banks have to go ... and go in national disgrace everywhere.

 

They have misled, lied and manipulated whole economies in order to shore up power they never should have had in the first place.

|:^)

 

but aren't the central bankers merely cleaning up the mess that the politicians actually created by pandering to the desires and needs of the masses to spend spend spend without working, retiring and having a lovely existence without paying taxes and yet still demanding a welfare state and tip top state provided services.?????

 

chicken and egg maybe

[Ingot54 13]

but aren't the central bankers merely cleaning up the mess that the politicians actually created by pandering to the desires and needs of the masses to spend spend spend without working, retiring and having a lovely existence without paying taxes and yet still demanding a welfare state and tip top state provided services.?????

 

chicken and egg maybe

Doesn't take much to get me going, does it!

 

|:^)

 

I suspect you are taking the public advocate position here, Siuya - a bit rhetorical perhaps.

 

You are correct about the Welfare State being at the bottom of most of the trouble, or at least a bigger part of that, but the corruption of our financiers is at the top.

 

The Reserve bank Of Australia was formed in1960 when the Reserve Bank Act 1959 removed the central banking functions from the Commonwealth Bank to it.

 

Reserve Bank of Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

It has gone through a few transformations, but has steadily grown in power, while shrinking in political interference. The Board consists of members of both the Bank, the Treasury, other Australian government agencies, and leaders of other institutions that are part of the economy. There are 6 external members - economic figures in Australia (industry CEO's etc) and 3 Internal appointees from the Government and Treasury.

 

Their manipulation of interest rates is supposed to maintain stability in Australian economy, but in fact this has led to the creation of the housing bubble we have here (slowly imploding) and set us up for greater problems ahead, because of their interference in free market forces.

 

I like free markets - they reflect the amount of hard work and innovation put in by hard-working people. Interference by governments and bankers only has the effect of weakening the ability of those who truly drive the economy, and steal their wealth and idea-making ability, and distribute it elsewhere. Governments everywhere are responsible for the repression of ideas and innovation, through their socialist agenda to redistribute the substance of those who truly create economic value.

 

Regardless of everything else that is necessary in an economy, the need to pay the nations bills, and feed it, are still right up there with Oxygen as a necessity of modern life. Government intervention through unfair taxation and manipulation of Interest rates certainly does serve a function that has value - ie supports the less fortunate and lazy, though the two are not synonymous - but ultimately too much of this interference simply forces nations into decline. This is so because banker-control of political function serves to create debt in a society, and wealth in a bank.

 

Woodrow Wilson forced through the Federal Reserve Act in 1913, in the small hours of the morning in a depleted congressional house.

 

Woodrow Wilson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Reportedly he later regretted that:

 

Talk:Woodrow Wilson - Wikiquote

 

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men.

 

"We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

 

The US Federal Reserve is NOT a Government body, but a private institution. In fact, the requirement for the Chairman of the Fed to report to (and account to) Congress has expired - but Bernanke continues to do so, as did Greenspan before him, because it enhances their reputation and power.

 

The antics of the US Fed have brought the financial world to the edge of the abyss.

 

Had the financial world been allowed to collapse in 2007 - 2009, instead of trillions of dollars being pumped into its foundations, the dust would have settled, rebuilding would be under way, and the sun would have risen this morning like it did yesterday.

 

By the way - the trillions of dollars, pounds and euros that have just stayed the day of execution, could perhaps have been used to cure cancer, feed the world's starving, provided renewable energy, clean water, beaten more diseases and viral problems like HIV, and parasitical diseases like sleeping sickness, malaria ... and ... and ... maybe ... MAYBE we could have seen an end to war.

 

But the difference is that those corrupt manipulators of the derivative markets, Wall Street and Investment banks, JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs would all be in gaol today, instead of sitting back with their bonuses and smug smiles, having gotten away with murder. ("Murder" refers to the deaths of those who for reasons of financial ruin took their own lives.)

 

If you think this is harsh - think again. What has happened has nothing to do with free markets. It has been everything to do with political corruption and mateship in high places. Ron Paul wants an audit of the Federal Reserve. He can't get it, because Congress is in the pay of Wall Street bankers who supported Congressional members' election campaigns.

 

Should this be allowed? No. In the USA the lobbyists have taken away the power from the citizens who rightfully own that power. The entire system is corrupt, and there is no statesman or even any leader who has the will to fix that situation. Many had hoped Obama would be the one. The man was given the Nobel Peace Prize 6 weeks into his Presidency - long before he had even done any single thing towards improving world peace.

 

Corruption.

 

They spend their lives scheming to get rich.

They get rich ... finally.

And ... finally ... they die ... having left in their wake, on their way to heaven, a trail of despair, bankruptcy of others and misery that will take a generation to wipe out.

 

So ... do you think Greece is going to be alright now?

In these hands ... no.

 

Remember what the citizens did in Iceland?

 

Enjoy this little read (attached.)

 

Kind regards

 

Ingot

Iceland Citizens retain people power.doc