Day Trading the E-mini Futures

[bakrob99 11]

I don't understand your question. Can you explain?

 

When you are in a trade ... your emotions are running and you need to fight the urge to violate your plan.

 

When you are NOT in a trade - you are thinking MUCH MORE CLEARLY.

[goodoboy 10]

When you are in a trade ... your emotions are running and you need to fight the urge to violate your plan.

 

When you are NOT in a trade - you are thinking MUCH MORE CLEARLY.

 

I'm sorry bakrob99, but I am still a but confused on what you statement means. What do you mean " fight the urge to violate your plan"?

[bakrob99 11]

I'm sorry bakrob99, but I am still a but confused on what you statement means. What do you mean " fight the urge to violate your plan"?

 

YOU SAID:

Originally Posted by goodoboy »

Long 1395.25, stop 1392.50. Target 1400

 

THEN

Originally Posted by goodoboy »

Exit at 1397.75. as price action did not make it to r2, so i better take some profits.

 

Wasn't your plan to exit at 1400.00??

[papageo 10]

Goodoboy, the implication is that emotions can (and will) affect your decision-making process during trading. And, since emotions have a tendency to run much hotter while in a trade than when watching on the sidelines, you should really take care to not let them override your initial analysis.

 

When in a trade where I have open profits, I will see reversals everywhere, causing me to exit at the worst possible point.

 

When in a losing trade, I will see continuation moves everywhere, causing me to keep re-entering after my SL is hit.

[goodoboy 10]

YOU SAID:

Originally Posted by goodoboy »

Long 1395.25, stop 1392.50. Target 1400

 

THEN

Originally Posted by goodoboy »

Exit at 1397.75. as price action did not make it to r2, so i better take some profits.

 

Wasn't your plan to exit at 1400.00??

 

Yes, it was exit to exit at 1400. During the trade management phase, i brought stop to breakeven once 1398 was hit. Next price action came down to 1396 area, so once it went back up, i took it off. I guess I was not patient enough. I should have waited and followed through.

[bakrob99 11]

The way I see it, you were getting in a little earlier than the RTH Open and better priced. The Open is ALWAYS choppy, but you had a good position which wasn't threatened. On the 5Min chart there was only 1 bar which had its low taken out and then by just 1 tick with no volume. The market had rallied above the opening swing and never looked back until it got to 1400.

 

That is key resistance and attracted MAJOR selling volume. That is why I am short at 1400. and looking for a substantial move back down.

[goodoboy 10]

The way I see it, you were getting in a little earlier than the RTH Open and better priced. The Open is ALWAYS choppy, but you had a good position which wasn't threatened. On the 5Min chart there was only 1 bar which had its low taken out and then by just 1 tick with no volume. The market had rallied above the opening swing and never looked back until it got to 1400.

 

That is key resistance and attracted MAJOR selling volume. That is why I am short at 1400. and looking for a substantial move back down.

 

Yes, I am kicking myself once again on this. I always tell myself (and written in plan) I want the runners, yet I position myself correctly and dont let it run. A bit of emotions kicked it thinking another choppy day like yesterday. :crap: I'm never going to get the big runner like that. This one is going to hurt.

[steve46 12]

Yes, I am kicking myself once again on this. I always tell myself (and written in plan) I want the runners, yet I position myself correctly and dont let it run. A bit of emotions kicked it thinking another choppy day like yesterday. :crap: I'm never going to get the big runner like that. This one is going to hurt.

 

If I could suggest something obvious...I did this for each of my classes and it seemed to work (better for the last one I guess)....and that is the following

 

If your account permits, why not keep just let one contract run for each trade.....with a B/E stop in place....and just watch....especially if you think you have a nice breakout trade in place, this might work for you...and provide significant extra profit....with manageable risk...

 

Just thought..

 

Good luck

[bakrob99 11]

Yes, I am kicking myself once again on this. ...

 

Don't kick yourself. Instead just come up with some money management rules that work for you that allow you to stay in the trend.

 

That is one of the biggest challenges in trading ... exiting well according to plan (maybe THE biggest) It is the difference between just profitable trading and VERY profitable trading.

[goodoboy 10]

If I could suggest something obvious...I did this for each of my classes and it seemed to work (better for the last one I guess)....and that is the following

 

If your account permits, why not keep just let one contract run for each trade.....with a B/E stop in place....and just watch....especially if you think you have a nice breakout trade in place, this might work for you...and provide significant extra profit....with manageable risk...

 

Just thought..

 

Good luck

 

Thanks Steve. That is my plan when I start trading two contracts. I am only trading one contract for now, so the trade/money management part is something I am continuously working on.

 

My plan is to trade one contract until I can gain 3k (or 4k) in realized gains and a workable method. This way I have some confidence in my risk, money, and trade management. I think this will keep me discipline and something work towards to.

 

Normally, I look for +5 runs and will bring stop to b/e. I just need to be more patient and watch.

[sdoma 10]

If your account permits, why not keep just let one contract run for each trade.....with a B/E stop in place....and just watch....especially if you think you have a nice breakout trade in place, this might work for you...

 

This is a good idea, but I'd take it further. Put on your full position, use your discretion to exit on all but 1 contract, set your stop and take profit orders, and then record which stop was hit.

 

After you have a month's worth of data, take a look at it. If you're exiting at break even most of the time, then you know that your targets are too ambitious for your risk level. If you're hitting most of the time, then you know to get out of the way, so to speak.

 

If the results are more mixed, or hard to interpret, you might switch to other exit strategies, such as an aggressive trailing stop or gradual scaling out with stop shift to break even + x, y, z as you scale to lock in profits.

 

Thanks Steve. That is my plan when I start trading two contracts. I am only trading one contract for now, so the trade/money management part is something I am continuously working on.

 

Run a sim account alongside your DOM. If you're entering with limit orders, it's easy to do. Otherwise, just use a piece of paper and write down the time of the trade, your exit and whether your planned target was hit.

[goodoboy 10]

Quick question, if a trader wants to short now (1400), would that be counter trend trading?

[sdoma 10]

Quick question, if a trader wants to short now (1400), would that be counter trend trading?

 

That depends on which time frame you're talking about. The entire day and overnight action has been trending up, and so, on a day frame, shorting it is betting on either reversion to the mean or outright reversal, and thus, counter trend on the day frame. If you're looking at a shorter time frame than that, say, since about noon, then you are trading with the current trend, which is down. Be careful that you aren't late to the party.

[goodoboy 10]

Don't kick yourself. Instead just come up with some money management rules that work for you that allow you to stay in the trend.

 

That is one of the biggest challenges in trading ... exiting well according to plan (maybe THE biggest) It is the difference between just profitable trading and VERY profitable trading.

 

Thanks bakrob99 for advice and pointing that out to me early. You right, trade/money management is a challenge and important. I been working on entry and exit management. I will get another chance tommorow. I going with the trend until it change.

[joshdance 10]

goodoboy, here's another bit of conflicting advice to add to the mix--while some type of approach is important, only a good plan is worth following. The market may not agree with your plan, in which case it would be foolish to adhere to it (I did this yesterday in fact). It comes down to reading what the market is doing. Early exits, both for winners and losers, if there is a good reason (and not based out of fear, etc.), are okay in my book. Bowing down to the holy temple of "the plan" may not be the wisest course for all circumstances. If one is able to detach himself from being in the trade and objectively see what's going on, then one does not need a plan--that's easier said than done of course, and we are all humans and can easily succumb to making poor decisions due to a bias while in a trade.

[bakrob99 11]

...Early exits, both for winners and losers, if there is a good reason (and not based out of fear, etc.), are okay in my book. ...

 

I absolutely agree with this. The key is always reading the market based on market generated information which is a tough task at any time -but particularly tough when you have a position on.

 

Trailing a stop behind a bar which closes above the high of a prior bar has worked well for me as a money management technique to stay in a trend. My point is - you have to use something other than your gut to manage your trade and the best traders do this well.

[TheNegotiator 13]

Morning everyone. Pretty tight ranges Mon/Tues then?

 

Here's a chart:-

 

[bakrob99 11]

Tight but down days market is selling off in morning, rallying in afternoon, Up days - rallying in morning selling off in afternoon.

 

Summer trading. Go with flow working well.

 

I am long off the bottom here which I am thinking is counter trend.

 

Do you have any insight as to where the market might be moving next given your nice composite chart and all???

[goodoboy 10]

goodoboy, here's another bit of conflicting advice to add to the mix--while some type of approach is important, only a good plan is worth following. The market may not agree with your plan, in which case it would be foolish to adhere to it (I did this yesterday in fact). It comes down to reading what the market is doing. Early exits, both for winners and losers, if there is a good reason (and not based out of fear, etc.), are okay in my book. Bowing down to the holy temple of "the plan" may not be the wisest course for all circumstances. If one is able to detach himself from being in the trade and objectively see what's going on, then one does not need a plan--that's easier said than done of course, and we are all humans and can easily succumb to making poor decisions due to a bias while in a trade.

 

Thanks joshdance,

 

The comments I can agree with, I notice sometimes the plan does not follow through. It will take alot of thinking and day to day market action and analyzing.

[DbPhoenix 42]

goodoboy, here's another bit of conflicting advice to add to the mix--while some type of approach is important, only a good plan is worth following. The market may not agree with your plan, in which case it would be foolish to adhere to it (I did this yesterday in fact). It comes down to reading what the market is doing. Early exits, both for winners and losers, if there is a good reason (and not based out of fear, etc.), are okay in my book. Bowing down to the holy temple of "the plan" may not be the wisest course for all circumstances. If one is able to detach himself from being in the trade and objectively see what's going on, then one does not need a plan--that's easier said than done of course, and we are all humans and can easily succumb to making poor decisions due to a bias while in a trade.

 

I absolutely agree with this. The key is always reading the market based on market generated information which is a tough task at any time -but particularly tough when you have a position on.

 

Trailing a stop behind a bar which closes above the high of a prior bar has worked well for me as a money management technique to stay in a trend. My point is - you have to use something other than your gut to manage your trade and the best traders do this well.

 

Nearly all adults forget what it's like to be children, much less teenagers. Nearly all traders who've been at this awhile forget what it's like to be beginners (though many are still beginners after several years). Beginners are not objective. Beginners cannot "read the market". Most beginners cannot even tell up from down. Beginners are not among the best traders; few can even adopt the habits of winning traders, choosing instead to adopt the habits of losing traders.

 

At minimum, a beginning trader must have a plan. A beginning trader must then follow that plan without variation, at all times, under all circumstances. If he does not do so, there is no point in creating the plan in the first place. If the plan is insufficient and requires modification, the beginner must do that outside the time he spends trading, not off the cuff in the midst of his trading day. He must then repeat this cycle until he has something he can trust. If he cannot or refuses to do this, he will fail.

 

A beginner who is fearful and abandons his plan in sim is in deep trouble. Unless he can develop a plan that will enable him to trade without fear, he ought to just hang it up, because he will never be able to trade enough size to provide anything more than lunch money, if that.

 

Db

[TheNegotiator 13]

Do you have any insight as to where the market might be moving next given your nice composite chart and all???

 

If you extend the range back to 3/14/7, you have a double distribution in the large consolidation area. The centres of those DD's are 1422.50 & 1486.00.

 

[TheNegotiator 13]

Nearly all adults forget what it's like to be children, much less teenagers. Nearly all traders who've been at this awhile forget what it's like to be beginners (though many are still beginners after several years). Beginners are not objective. Beginners cannot "read the market". Most beginners cannot even tell up from down. Beginners are not among the best traders; few can even adopt the habits of winning traders, choosing instead to adopt the habits of losing traders.

 

At minimum, a beginning trader must have a plan. A beginning trader must then follow that plan without variation, at all times, under all circumstances. If he does not do so, there is no point in creating the plan in the first place. If the plan is insufficient and requires modification, the beginner must do that outside the time he spends trading, not off the cuff in the midst of his trading day. He must then repeat this cycle until he has something he can trust. If he cannot or refuses to do this, he will fail.

 

A beginner who is fearful and abandons his plan in sim is in deep trouble. Unless he can develop a plan that will enable him to trade without fear, he ought to just hang it up, because he will never be able to trade enough size to provide anything more than lunch money, if that.

 

Db

 

Absolutely. But, there is certainly merit in having rules to allow you to take trades outside of a plan. I think the point is that whilst it's very important to have a plan, becoming fixated by it at times may lead your trading into being rather one-dimensional. Of course, if you're taking more trades outside of a plan than in it, maybe it's worth changing the plan.

[bakrob99 11]

MY plan is to hold on to this long until the ES fill s its gap. Then go sailing.

[TheNegotiator 13]

MY plan is to hold on to this long until the ES fill s its gap. Then go sailing.

 

That sounds like a good plan.

[DbPhoenix 42]

Absolutely. But, there is certainly merit in having rules to allow you to take trades outside of a plan. I think the point is that whilst it's very important to have a plan, becoming fixated by it at times may lead your trading into being rather one-dimensional. Of course, if you're taking more trades outside of a plan than in it, maybe it's worth changing the plan.

 

Sorry, but no, and if I seem argumentative, it's only because I've been doing this for so many years and I've worked with an awful lot of beginners.

 

A beginner cannot take trades outside his plan until he has developed a consistently profitable trading plan that he can trust. If during his trading he sees that certain modifications are necessary, he can make those modifications and try again the next day. But he cannot make a habit of changing horses in midstream. By following the former path, he may have a rigorous plan in a matter of weeks. By following the latter, he may never have one at all.

 

Db