Day Trading the E-mini Futures

[TheNegotiator 13]

What is a developing VPOC?

 

If you have the session VPOC using the TPO indicator where it changes it as the VPOC moves, then you can just delete it because it's part of the profile indi now.

[roztom 10]

If you have the session VPOC using the TPO indicator where it changes it as the VPOC moves, then you can just delete it because it's part of the profile indi now.

 

Not sure I completely understand... Are you saying you don't need the TPO indicator to see the VPOC shift on your charts?

[TheNegotiator 13]

New naked fractals option looks interesting. I might have a play around with that.

 

Indeed. You can get rid of it.

[roztom 10]

New naked fractals option looks interesting. I might have a play around with that.

 

Indeed. You can get rid of it.

 

I'm not sure I know what a naked fractal is..

[TheNegotiator 13]

I'm not sure I know what a naked fractal is..

 

Lol. The fractal indicator can be used to automatically mark out swing extremes. So for example, you could play with the setting to get it to show the 1357.25 yesterday and probably the 63's today. This new feature will just extend a line in the same way as the "Extend Naked POC" option does.

[roztom 10]

Trade Update... MY 64.00 long ticked my next scale @ 67.50 & was unable... in hindsight..given the thickness of the profile it would have been smarter to give it a tick and put my limit at 67.25... but such is life... now it will get interesting...

 

We should have a rotation now to get others like me who were anticipating a new high - shame on me for thinking like the pack...

 

I am protecting a B/E stop & if it gets taken that is the way it goes...

 

HOWEVER, we are going to rotate and depending how it goes I may scale back in for the afternoon trade.. however I do stand a chance of being stopped..depending on how it all looks I might have to wait until 2p to re-engage..not sure right now..will have to see how it unfolds.. :crap:

[roztom 10]

Lol. The fractal indicator can be used to automatically mark out swing extremes. So for example, you could play with the setting to get it to show the 1357.25 yesterday and probably the 63's today. This new feature will just extend a line in the same way as the "Extend Naked POC" option does.

 

I get it Swing high swing lows..I do that now interday.. no extended lines... I wonder what the chart would look like - pretty busy I'd think..

[roztom 10]

Trade Update 64.00 long... I am still long @ the moment 12:51 cst... I have a MHVN @64.00 that is where the marekt should hold and also where I would have added for a long..I did not add I moved my stop to 63.25... obviously I can get popped but 64.00 looked like an easy area to rotate to and besides where can I take a .75 pt risk on a trade?

 

If I had scaled up top like it would have been smarter to do, I wou,ld be adding right here for a continuation...not a recommendation, etc..just human interest..

[steve46 12]

On a friday (for me) this last day of the week is pretty easy...I wait (as previously mentioned) for tests of the Weekly Open (one of my "time based pivots")

 

There have been several tests today and the attached chart shows the most recent

[joshdance 10]

Post 1807 shows it Tom. 2500v(although anything between1-3k is okay). It just hugs the price for a bit and the VP extends at that price. Of course the change in the VP is going to be more obvious early in the session if you only have a session profile and that's why it can be useful to have maybe 30min profiles or less on a profile to bring up if you want to check what you think you saw.

 

Grinding up now...

 

Tom, check this out, it's rolling 60 second volume with delta on top. (TL not letting me upload a pic right now)

 

02.24.2012-14.52.58 - joshtrader's library

[joshdance 10]

On a friday (for me) this last day of the week is pretty easy...I wait (as previously mentioned) for tests of the Weekly Open (one of my "time based pivots")

 

There have been several tests today and the attached chart shows the most recent

 

Even though futures traded during 2 hours of the regular RTH session on Monday, equities did not and I would think that for the purposes of your weekly open, that you would consider that to be Tuesday's 62.50 RTH open.

[steve46 12]

Yes, I know that some folks use Tuesday's number instead of Monday....creates a bit more noise in the market but thats what we have to deal with.....

 

What I see is that we tested Monday's open and failed there, then came down to Tuesday's open and rebounded......back up to Monday's open again...a game of ping-pong going here during the close

Edited February 24, 2012 by steve46

[roztom 10]

Trade Update: I took the loss @ 63.25 That's it..got no gas... On a Neutral Day potential for a mid-range close in the 64.50 area...

[roztom 10]

Tom, check this out, it's rolling 60 second volume with delta on top. (TL not letting me upload a pic right now)

 

02.24.2012-14.52.58 - joshtrader's library

 

That's pretty interesting... We should discuss that a bit further...

[joshdance 10]

That's pretty interesting... We should discuss that a bit further...

 

Just volume, same thing you see on any other chart--was just pointing out the absorption that N talked about.

 

BTW, I did not check the thread during the day today but we were about 65 - 75% of 20d median volume all day long. Right now at the close we are only 1.1M contracts traded. 6.00 range.

[roztom 10]

Just volume, same thing you see on any other chart--was just pointing out the absorption that N talked about.

 

BTW, I did not check the thread during the day today but we were about 65 - 75% of 20d median volume all day long. Right now at the close we are only 1.1M contracts traded. 6.00 range.

 

Yes, there wasn't too much there for the taking... In fact when the dust settled I bought my broker a Happy Meal... that's about it...

 

Sometimes I do things I shouldn't the "enemy within." At the HOD I actually had that number but somewhere in the back of my brain I thought they'd one tick that prev HOD...not... instead they ticked my price... 67.50... unable..

 

:crap: That is the kind of error that can make the difference between profit and loss for the day... I'm pleased to admit I did not make $ today eventhough I had good trade location and read it well... on the other side I just worked for my broker and had a very modest loss for a tightly wound day...

 

Hope you all have a good weekend... I will be doing my playback review this weekend..so I can improve..

[TheNegotiator 13]

I think the key thing for me is to accept that just because a market moves it doesn't mean I can profit from it. It's very easy to get into that kind of thinking that you can just figure it out and make money. The point is that you make money not only from movement but also conditions. Some people adapt better than others to various conditions, but also I have seen most who don't adapt well are really good at some market types. Anyway, I hope everyone has a great weekend and can come back fresh next week!

[roztom 10]

I think the key thing for me is to accept that just because a market moves it doesn't mean I can profit from it. It's very easy to get into that kind of thinking that you can just figure it out and make money. The point is that you make money not only from movement but also conditions. Some people adapt better than others to various conditions, but also I have seen most who don't adapt well are really good at some market types. Anyway, I hope everyone has a great weekend and can come back fresh next week!

 

I want to share one of my trading challanges..it surfaces intermittently which makes it even more challanging than the typical issues we all face..

 

N: I am actually quite adept at trading most market conditions. However, accuracy becomes much more important on a narrow range/low volume day...

 

What happens to me on a day like today (something I must improve on) is I will see the conditions, read the market well, acknowledge it to myself, write it in my journal and then go back to trading or managing a position and leave that information out...

 

I don't mind sharing this..What makes it even more difficult for me is that it is inconsistent. Some days the same information sticks in my brain, others it doesn't...

 

Friday I saw the MP thicken up..this is a market not doing a good job.. no gas... I read my entries almost like a surgeon..ok so far... I did some scales and was unable at the HOD for my final exit.. my lapse of concentration..I actually had one tick before HOD limit order... but moved it - one tick left 3.25 pts on the table.. pilot error..

 

With all the chop that was the difference for my day... also I could have protected better when the trade failed and either taken a little or scratched... pilot error..

 

I also had a long going into the Cash close with a target 1 tick before the mid-point.. Neutral Days will typically return to test the Mid-point unless there is a change in trend, etc. Friday's Neutral was longs bailing. I went long off the bottom. I bailed on the trade about 5 min just before it hit my limit..for 1.25 pts - and lost 2 ticks on the trade - pilot error...

 

When the dust settled I did not make $ for the day..not a big $ deal but too me it IS signifigent for my overall bottom-line and the errors - It is the errors, evnthough the financial consequences were minor the errors are signifigent since I am striving to reduce those types of errors.

 

It was not the market. It was me... the good news is I know it. I know why and I can correct it.. The bad news is I come back to this and have not yet eliminated it from my trading. It pops up, especially when my focus isn't there.. unfortunately I do not recognize it while it is happening until I review the day...

 

I think it is very difficult for many to successfully trade these type of days..there is not much room for error. It can be done, however, and I do it when I am sharp.. it is the lapses that are the enemy.. and as I like to say - "the Enemy is Me."

[steve46 12]

I think its wonderful to have a jargon all your own (as each system has)....however what matters to me in the end is whether I can make a dollar...and for all its elegance, I notice that market profile and even volume profile for that matter, does not take into consideration, the FACT that markets are moved by the decisions that people make in offices on Wall Street and elsewhere and many of those folks have no idea of what Market Profile is....and couldn't care less...

 

I also notice that for "some reason" particpants seem to want to come into the market to buy or sell....at the open, high and low of specific time periods (hence my concept of time based pivots)....by coincidence just this last friday, traders seemed to want to act when price tested the weekly open and high....

 

Good luck Folks

Steve

[MightyMouse 12]

I want to share one of my trading challanges..it surfaces intermittently which makes it even more challanging than the typical issues we all face..

 

N: I am actually quite adept at trading most market conditions. However, accuracy becomes much more important on a narrow range/low volume day...

 

What happens to me on a day like today (something I must improve on) is I will see the conditions, read the market well, acknowledge it to myself, write it in my journal and then go back to trading or managing a position and leave that information out...

 

I don't mind sharing this..What makes it even more difficult for me is that it is inconsistent. Some days the same information sticks in my brain, others it doesn't...

 

Friday I saw the MP thicken up..this is a market not doing a good job.. no gas... I read my entries almost like a surgeon..ok so far... I did some scales and was unable at the HOD for my final exit.. my lapse of concentration..I actually had one tick before HOD limit order... but moved it - one tick left 3.25 pts on the table.. pilot error..

 

With all the chop that was the difference for my day... also I could have protected better when the trade failed and either taken a little or scratched... pilot error..

 

I also had a long going into the Cash close with a target 1 tick before the mid-point.. Neutral Days will typically return to test the Mid-point unless there is a change in trend, etc. Friday's Neutral was longs bailing. I went long off the bottom. I bailed on the trade about 5 min just before it hit my limit..for 1.25 pts - and lost 2 ticks on the trade - pilot error...

 

When the dust settled I did not make $ for the day..not a big $ deal but too me it IS signifigent for my overall bottom-line and the errors - It is the errors, evnthough the financial consequences were minor the errors are signifigent since I am striving to reduce those types of errors.

 

It was not the market. It was me... the good news is I know it. I know why and I can correct it.. The bad news is I come back to this and have not yet eliminated it from my trading. It pops up, especially when my focus isn't there.. unfortunately I do not recognize it while it is happening until I review the day...

 

I think it is very difficult for many to successfully trade these type of days..there is not much room for error. It can be done, however, and I do it when I am sharp.. it is the lapses that are the enemy.. and as I like to say - "the Enemy is Me."

 

If you didn't make money, can I guess that you lost money?

 

I simply learned to stay out of the market on days like you described. They are pretty easy to identify beforehand. You can always wait in the shadows prepared to trade if the typical way out of those days comes about.

[steve46 12]

I was trained to think of this a bit differently...for me trading and losing is simply part of the game....you expect to have losing days....but not trading because you can't handle the action (whatever the reason) is pretty negative....unless you are a hobbyist and don't need the income...in that case, its fine...

 

The issue for me is that you have a finite number of trading days...you assume your system will produce a certain number of winning and losing days on average, or that your system will produce a positive or negative result in dollar terms per time period, and when you don't trade it introduces a randomizing element into the system....

 

For my own system I assume a certain number of missed days as part of my "numbers"...if I go significantly past that number of "personal days", I can anticipate a potentially negative effect on my yearly totals.

[roztom 10]

If you didn't make money, can I guess that you lost money?

 

I simply learned to stay out of the market on days like you described. They are pretty easy to identify beforehand. You can always wait in the shadows prepared to trade if the typical way out of those days comes about.

 

I typically don't know what kind of day to expect until I see it develop.. I do know where the possibilities lie but until I see one side or the other tip their hand then I don't know .. the path it will take...

 

As far as trading that kind of market, while it was difficult - they all are one way or another. I really didn't have a problem with the market..The market was not what I referring to..

 

My lapse of focus was the only reason it wasn't a profitable day for me, not entries, reading it, not all the things we spend the majority of our time mastering.

 

It was the ultimate challange in sucessful trading.. managing the mind - not letting emotions or behaviors from the real world bleed over into the trading world which operates seperately from and typically conflicts with our socialized behaviors.

 

I suspect fatigue might be part of it..I'm not sure but I post it because it is the truth and is real.

 

Also quite often there is much posturing and BS on these forums.. I don't read almost anywhere someone talking about their personal trading challanges. When they make an error or describe their personal challanges...

 

The reason I post it is because it is part of the business and if I relax too much, in spite of a well honed skill set, I can take shinola and turn it into poop...

 

Those who have the same challanges whether newbie or CP will benifit from knowing that the struggle really never ends and we have to always mind the mental store...

 

I do not have to worry about being profitable. I DO have to worry about not executing my trade plan. If I execute properly and have a losing trade that is a winner for me... and I go on. If I make errors like I did on Friday..that is the true loss... that is an alarming situation to a trader, imho. I don't want this to sound bigger than it is..it is not a huge deal to me but lapses like those come and go... Others might benifit from hearing about what I go through in spite of many years in the business and that is why I publish this...this imho is the real world of trading... it may not be anyone elses but it is mine..

 

I publish this to be transparent. I am not a rookie but I do make mistakes..typically only a few a week... but Friday was way out of the norm so that in of itself makes it a mini-lab for me to examine... After all, if I pay tuition by turning a winning day into a losing one..even if the amount was insignifigentl then at least I can gain something from it.

 

Hopefully readers here will get to see that "easy street" isn't all that easy - all the time. At least not for me.. maybe it is for others...

 

This is another part of the business that must be managed and is probably the most vulnerable area - especially for descretionary traders.

Edited February 26, 2012 by roztom

[steve46 12]

Okay so Tom have you given thought to trading a specific time period, then taking a break (leaving the screen)? I do this and it seems to be working.....I do miss the occaisional trade but when I am at the screen I don't miss trades or take bad (or late) entries...that used to be a problem for me...Here's how I approach it

 

Open to 8:30am...trade

8:30 to 9:45.....break

Starting at 11am I trade for 45 minutes then take a 15 minute break

and of course I adjust if I am managing a position

 

Hope this helps

Steve

Edited February 26, 2012 by steve46

[roztom 10]

Okay so Tom have you given thought to trading a specific time period, then taking a break (leaving the screen)? I do this and it seems to be working.....I do miss the occaisional trade but when I am at the screen I don't miss trades or take bad (or late) entries...that used to be a problem for me...Here's how I approach it

 

Open to 8:30am...trade

8:30 to 9:45.....break

Starting at 11am I trade for 45 minutes then take a 15 minute break

and of course I adjust if I am managing a position

 

Hope this helps

Steve

 

Thanks Steve..

 

The lapses in conscentration are what get me... I've tried buttressing it with check lists like a Traders Cook Book, with different receipes for different parts of the trade - then it sits on my desk, reminders, sticky notes, cattle prod, etc. which I fail to remeber or even see in front of me but when I have a lapse like this I am not aware it is happening.. Sometimes it feels like tunnel vision like I am not seeing the periphery and all the years of trading go out the window...

 

When I did system trading the rules and process were built in and while there was some discretion at least in the parts of it for legging spreads or trading around it for the currencies I traded or the Swing Trading in S&P, they were much more structured but automated. The currency trading had a chassis it was built on and we allowed discretion for trading around a position interday...it skewed the numbers but we monitored the efficacy of the legging as a seperate trade - if that makes sense. As you know with the spreads while it has it's own money management set I would lift one side and that increased the yield but the trade management was a function of the spread - on/off..etc.

 

Daytrading creates different challanges for me and I suspect some conflicts are built in from past learned behavior that conflicts with the daytrading process..maybe it's "trading baggage?"

 

As far as taking a break, I really can't do it... I have to wait for my locations and I don't know when the market will get there... I usually get continuation setups over lunch when they rotate for stops and then try for a new HOD assuming we have directional trade - my entries seem to be the best part of my execution..but Friday it broke down on open trade management..YIKES, anything else? :crap:

 

As far as the clock & taking breaks, I really like to see how the market behaves at different levels.. Since I read market action and don't initiate trades on indicators in a traditional sense that many try to do - I do use them to confirm after I put the trade on since they lag. I am concerned that I will lose the feel for what is going on... just my need to try to stay in touch with the "feel" of the market so I don't believe your suggestion would work for me.. appreciate your suggestion though..

 

This is just one of those things - If I could manage those issues it would make a huge impact.. Friday was not signifigent because of the narrow range but if it happens on a signifigent day then it does have a major impact since I do have the discipline to wait for the market to set up...

 

I haven't found an answer to this since it comes and goes... it does seem to relate to fatigue though... I think moving my Limit order for exit 1 tick when I shouldn't have and being unable because of it shows 2 things:

 

1. My tools work well..basically I would have scaled at HOD (one tick in front) no guarantee of course - actually I "thought" I'd get one more tick. "Think" is the problem..my tools told me to put it one tick ahead - it would have been the HOD for a limit @ target...

the little voice of greed kicked in - all for a tick - now we do know that is a NUTS thing to do..

 

1. My process works - I believe I have adquetely demonstrated that here.

2. It is the mental part that intermittemtly breaks down - that's it.

 

Maybe there are some more steps I can take to buttress that area. I know it is not unique to me.. and maybe there are some answers.

 

I think being discretionary which allows for flexibility allows this to come in to the process, even on a subliminal basis.. On Friday morning as I wrote here, before we got goingI though "if the market got going" we could test the upside of 1370 ish... Now was that resting in my subconscious? Did that thought cause me to do something different?

I don't know where some of this comes from. I do know where the 1370's came from but once the day developed and we didn't get a breakout I knew that was out the window but by then the error had been committed. Obviously this is a complex issue..there are amny variables but what gets me is not processing the information correctly... I think referencing Fridays low volume 6pt range and the fact that coming in I suspected a false breakout (which didn't happen by 1 tick), is part of the issue. As you can see I am trying to sort through what was in my mind even if not on a conscious level..

 

I find this interesting but I can't put my finger on how to recognize when Dr,. Hyde takes over - at least not yet.

 

If anyone has dealt with this type of thing and has some suggestion on what worked for them then I'd appreciate it.. Fortunately I do enough things right most of the time and am CP but how many days can we afford to leave $ on the table for no reason but ourselves?

[steve46 12]

I guess the first thing to say is that I don't consider leaving money on the table a particularly significant problem, IF you have a viable trading plan and you see the possibility for REALISTIC improvement....I leave money on the table every day...I view it as inevitable

 

What I think IS realistic and attainable, is for traders to improve their ability to accurately visualize profit targets, while leaving a "piece" of their original position in place....by "piece" I mean (for retail traders) at least 2 contracts....this solution it seems to me, permits the trader to take one more scale out at whatever price he/she thinks is the maximum favorable exursion for the trade (in that time period), leaving at least one contract in place in case they are wrong and the market displays continuation...I tell my students that this provides a good compromise between risk and reward on an intraday basis. Historically when volatility is low, one might argue that it doesn't add much, but clearly when volatility ramps up, this provides a significant boost to longer term profitability...

 

I do the same thing in a slightly different way when I establish a long term options position and then trade around it....unfortunately this solution is capital intensive and requires knowledge of options greeks...for those reasons alone, it is probably not a realistic approach for the average retail trader.