Nature or Nurture?

[johnw 10]

Nature and nurture is a both/and proposition. Through the process of attachment and attunement, our brain comes to very primal valuations of our worth.................................................................................................................................. Takes faith in a courage and a wisdom not yet born. This is our choice.

 

Rande Howell

 

Very well put Rande .... you have an excellent manner of describing this process

I look forward to your posts.

[TheNegotiator 13]

Rande, what about the positive aspects of a successful trader? Are these born or bred? I know you have experience with clients who will come to you so perhaps you don't have a pure sample to judge this on. A bit like curve fitting if you will! But still, with the number of traders you have come across there must be some aspects which you see as innate ability in the individual concerned. The question is whether these are genetic or not...

[zdo 20]

We are born into stories that connect money, power, worth, mattering, and adequacy. These histories have been moving through the generations like an avalanche coming down the side of a mountain. And we don't see them because they are wired into our perceptual map of the world long before we can think or reflect. They are the attitudes, biases, and assumptions of our family and our culture about money and risk. We don't have a money narrative -- the money narrative has us.

 

This money narrative will dominate your perception of trading. What you believe about yourself and money is not yours -- you are just the most recent crest in the wave of history. Waking up to this history and changing the narrative is critical to changing the core beliefs from which your trade

 

Rande,

 

That sounds genetic, karmic, transpersonal, morphic – all at once!

No wonder I’m ‘whelmed.

First impulse - find some other content to attend to / flee. / with eye patches not shades

 

I got in touch with an early childhood deprivation memory. I had been in touch with the memory before, particularly of how I reacted to that event as a 4 year old… but this time I got a feel for all the ‘preparation‘ work done before that event that made triggering my subjective response what it was instead of all the alternatives that were actually available but not consciously available to me at the time… Is that the kind of stuff you’re talking about ???

[Rande Howell 10]

Rande, what about the positive aspects of a successful trader? Are these born or bred? I know you have experience with clients who will come to you so perhaps you don't have a pure sample to judge this on. A bit like curve fitting if you will! But still, with the number of traders you have come across there must be some aspects which you see as innate ability in the individual concerned. The question is whether these are genetic or not...

 

 

 

Honestly, the most important trait I look for in a potential client is the passion they have for trading. This equates to Lover in the archetypal language of inherent attributes of our human. When passionate, I know they are willing to give up their current organization of self to become the trader they could be. Very few people are equipped off the shelf for trading. Some are. Jan Arps, and his son Hawk, are such people. They both have strong logical minds that landed in families that taught risk management from the craddle. So they were able to unravel uncertainty from being bonded to fear allowing them to think logically in probability oriented environments such as trading. This is rare. Nature and nuture breed a near perfect storm there.

 

Capacity for self honesty is next. If they have passion and can develop self honesty and are willing to work hard to emotionally regulate themselves, I have found a large range of people can develop the inherent traits of discipline, patience, courage, and impartiality. Maybe they have to also work to find a place in trading that lines up with their talents, but that can be done. Those 4 inherent traits are the things that a trader either needs to be born with or develop. The major characteristic when those four are present is that the state of mind doesn't change whether the trader wins or loses. They have the confidence to look at the failed trade with curiosity and look for a methodology mistake, a psychological mistake, or simply probability. If it's method or psych, they correct the mistake compassionately and move on. If it's probability, they just move on.

 

The traders I have not done well with (and really try) tend to have a really significant anxiety organization that does not respond to the emotional regulation work that is in the first part of my training. I'm in trouble then. The technology is tried and true, but the condition I'm working with needs to be treated -- not worked with. These people will generally have been treated for anxiety unsuccessfully for a number of years before they get into trading. These are not just regular worry and self doubt people. These are people with significant disruptions in attachment (trust) or adaptation to trauma (reactive fear) that wired in deep seated reactiveness.

 

Most people have the potential and simply have some glitches in psychological skills development that comtaminates them form developing their potential. They just have to want it enough to change.

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

Rande - while I appreciate all the deep and meaningful Mummy and Daddy did not love me and I need to somehow get self worth from activities, I was more asking if you had any opinion on the behavioural economic studies being done these days that show we make poor judgements with regards to values and monetary values - not self worth. Sorry if my first question did not make this more clear.

The point is - not involving individual self worth questions,- are we hard wired to make poor economic decisions or is this also cultural or a result of our up bringing in your opinion. Or is this not really an area of expertise for you? thanks.

[Rande Howell 10]

Rande - while I appreciate all the deep and meaningful Mummy and Daddy did not love me and I need to somehow get self worth from activities, I was more asking if you had any opinion on the behavioural economic studies being done these days that show we make poor judgements with regards to values and monetary values - not self worth. Sorry if my first question did not make this more clear.

The point is - not involving individual self worth questions,- are we hard wired to make poor economic decisions or is this also cultural or a result of our up bringing in your opinion. Or is this not really an area of expertise for you? thanks.

 

Sorry about that. I spent 20 years in advertising and marketing research in a quest to discover why people buy things -- often stupid things. And Dan Hill's work became my Bible of sorts. Bottom line, the members of an audience (or tribe) make emotional decisions rooted in their need for mattering, worth, power, and adequacy and then (afterwards) make up an explanation to rationale their decision. The limbic meaning making is for more powerful than the newly formed neo-cortex. The deepest implicit (read out of awareness of the individual) meaning embedded into the amygdala makes buying decisions out of a desire to feel connected and powerful. Dan Hill's work involves video taping people during focus interviews and then studying the video afterwards by slowing it down and watching for micro expressions of emotions. These are ones that last no longer that 1/25 of a second and therefore out of human awareness. They were able to get out real buying signals by doing this. And they discovered thinking had little to do with buying. It was all emotion based on a need to feel powerful, like they mattered, worthy, and adequate. And since emotion considers only short term solution, habituation to short term gratification habits beneath conscious awareness. Much like drug addiction. No focus on long term gain. It is the individual who has to get beyond this. Marketers will prey upon you vulnerabilities until you get this. So will Wall Street.

 

The source is 50 million years of emotional brain development and a lack of mindfulness on the individual's part. Nature and nurture.

 

By the way, all this stuff starts with the "touchy, feely" attachment and attunement to Mummy and Daddy. Many years ago it was demonstrated that Rheus monkeys would attach to a rag and a clock to avoid the chaos of a lack of cherishment and belonging. All those associations that marketers are building in their advertising to build a relationship between you, escape from your personal abyss, and their products are, at the bottom, rooted in the escape of attachment and attunement wounds. And our avoidance of healing them.

 

Anyway, people got a lot out of my misguided answer to your question. So thanks.

 

Rande Howell

[johnw 10]

Many years ago it was demonstrated that Rheus monkeys would attach to a rag and a clock to avoid the chaos of a lack of cherishment and belonging.

 

Rande Howell

 

Many decades ago when I was a single Student I dated a gorgeous girl such as you describe above.

In fact she would attach herself to anything, much to my immense luck

[zdo 20]

... we have cat that was from day one raised front half by humans (bottle feeding, etc) and back half by dogs (all that licking, etc)... not quite a normal cat, some 'species' issues, and she didn't grow as large a most cats... her name is Harlow

[Rande Howell 10]

Many decades ago when I was a single Student I dated a gorgeous girl such as you describe above.

In fact she would attach herself to anything, much to my immense luck

 

They call that Dependent Personality Disorder. Great sex until until it becomes pattern and boredom, or drama, set in. Maybe she was Harlow's girlfriend first....

 

Rande Howell

[Rande Howell 10]

... we have cat that was from day one raised front half by humans (bottle feeding, etc) and back half by dogs (all that licking, etc)... not quite a normal cat, some 'species' issues, and she didn't grow as large a most cats... her name is Harlow

 

Well named. Personally my favorite is from the Chilean neuro-biologist, Herberto Maturana, who seperated new born lambs from their mothers at particular moments. One of the times was when the new born was first dropped. He and his assistants would clean the after birth, rather than the mother, and give the babe right back to the mother, no more than 5 minutes.

 

The lambs did not grow up to be the social lambs that flock together. They distanced themselves from the flock and become isolated and bahhedd alot.

 

Attachment,attunement gone amuck.

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

no need to apologize Rande, this is all about discussions and where they lead, its more I am not explaining myself.....

I am more talking about pricing psychology and how we react to the ideas of price and value....not about why we buy things.( If we only buy things for self worth then this is different.)

Why is it we will place more value on something that has a price of 1cent than zero, why is it that we often have irrational perceptions of value, discounts and such. The things marketers prey on.....

[zdo 20]

...The lambs did not grow up to be the social lambs that flock together. They distanced themselves from the flock and become isolated and bahhedd alot.

 

Attachment,attunement gone amuck.

 

Rande Howell

 

after they said dropping me on my head and leaving me to lick up my own after b didn't seem to affect me... well That explains EVERYTHING

 

The traders did not grow up to be the social traders that flock together. They distanced themselves from the herd and become isolated and posted alot. :rofl:

[zdo 20]

Rande,

 

Can one have a variable ‘financial narrative’?

 

Can one have multiple ‘financial narratives’?

 

thx.

 

zdo

[Rande Howell 10]

Rande,

 

Can one have a variable ‘financial narrative’?

 

Can one have multiple ‘financial narratives’?

 

thx.

 

zdo

 

zdo

 

Particularly for a guy like you, yes. We always carry a historical financial narrative that has come down the generations and through circumstance. Hopefully, in the course of training yourself to trade, you alter this narrative. This demonstrates a reconstruction of this narrative. One time you spoke of over time desensitizing yourself to certain fears and eventually learning how to trade from a different way of understanding money, risk, and identity. This is called ontological reconstruction of a narrative.

 

There are still historically embedded narratives running around in your neuro-circuitry that can take over perception if you as a trader lapse into mindlessness. And there are new ways of understanding money, risk, and identity that have been manufactured over time and practice. These, when brought into the forefront of awareness, becomes the financial narrative that aloows you to trade from a much more empowered position.

 

Rande Howell

[TheNegotiator 13]

Rande, are you suggesting that there is a measurable kind of lineage effect on our trading?

[zdo 20]

TN ( and Rande)

Ditto that question.

"measurable " is a pivotal word in the ???

When I observe myself, first comes a clear break between paternal lineage / scripts and maternal lineage / scripts.

Further, maternal grandfather had most directed, conscious impacts (negatives). Paternal grandfather was born with a silver spoon in his mouth but he was more remote and a mystery to me ...

Then, the grandmothers, (and aunts and uncles family friends, etc that I was impacted by as a child) lives and unlived lives etc...

And we haven't even gotten to the 'sins of the fathers' many generations ago...

 

And... whether related to this lineage business or not, it seems to me as if one of several / many narratives holds sway for a while then fades and another goes into ascendency.. sometimes it's a fast cycle with overnight type changes and other times one is in for months, even years...

 

???

 

good question

 

Ya'll have a great weekend.

 

zdo

[stpips89 10]

Trading can be a very profitable profession. Where there is a lot of money there tends to be a lot of competition. So what does it take to come out on top? Really? In something like professional sports, I think many more people would be quick to hold up their hands and say they couldn't compete at that top level. But is that true? Are these people naturally gifted to such an extent that nobody else can get near them? Or is it that they have had an unimaginable amount of hard work and experience? Or is it that they've been taught by the best?

 

I think that anyone can learn to trade with enough time and effort. However, I do think that some people are more genetically "gifted" to be successful traders than others. Does that mean that less gifted people cannot find the same success as their "gifted' counter-parts? No, I don't think so.

 

The problem with trading is the most people don't want to admit the reason they are failing is their own inability to manage themselves and their actions. It's generally not the system or strategy one uses. We all know by looking at charts for a while that you can generally pick the near-term momentum pretty accurately. Its what happens after that, that causes traders to fail. The emotional make up that determines whether or not a trader succeeds is either not there, partially developed, or fully developed. Only pro traders have fully developed it. I think being open minded and a willingness to admit when you are wrong are both paramount to successful long-term trading. Most people in my experience are neither open mind nor willing to admit they are at fault. Thus, it's not surprising most people are bad traders.

[SRspider 10]

Many people associate being wrong with being stupid. And no one wants to be stupid hence the resistance to accepting the loss and cuttingit quickly or taking a stop out without the need to prove yourself right again quickly. Traders need to realize that being wrong has nothing to do with how smart you are. You will have losing trades even if your a genious period. If your following your plan and you are consistently losing take a closer look at your plan.

[MightyMouse 12]

People, in general, are willing to guarantee themselves a small gain, but less willing to guarantee themselves a small loss. This means they are willing to take larger risks when they are losing and are not willing to risk losing a small gain. To become a trader, you need to overcome this inherent flawed way of thinking. As a trader, you need to take advantage of the those who do have this flawed way of thinking. If you do not like the idea that you are taking advantage of the weaknesses of others, then you should probably not trade.

 

Imbedded above is the key to the thinking that will allow you to keep your losses small and let your winners run. Your strategy, set-up, analysis is completely secondary to the importance of the way you think. You do not need to know what the market is going to do, you do not need to know how to catch a trade close to the turn, you do not need to identify a pattern, and etc.; instead, you just need to know how to take money from it. It really is that simple. Catching the turn, trading a pattern that works, etc is certainly great when it happens and likely leads to a trade with a very large profit, but your profit will still depend upon your ability to let your profit run.

 

Once you get to thinking the right way, it is impossible to go back to thinking the wrong way and you will be taking more from the market than you will leave. You will also be disappointed at the amount you will be able to take in the long run.

 

 

MM

[Rande Howell 10]

Rande, are you suggesting that there is a measurable kind of lineage effect on our trading?

 

We may come equipped with certain genes that, under the right conditions, express themselves in such as way that it gives a person an advantage. You see this taken to the zenith in dog breeding for certain traits. The Russian and Chinese use trait expression to steer young people with athletic promise. Humans are far more complex though.

 

But I find nurture to be far more importance in developing a mindset than nature. Often those biases are handed down from one generation to the next. It's not genetics, but it is adaptation to circumstance. This is the money narrative. It is transmitted through the generations.

 

Most of us grown up in environments that organize us to "not make mistakes" and focus on certainty rather than ambiguity. So by the time that a brain has approached maturity, it is biased for creating certainty and avoiding uncertainty. This is an organization of the mind that is not going to work well in trading. That particular adaptation can work well in other domains, but not in trading where the emphasis is on embracing the management of uncertainty and risk.

 

Most of the people I work with realize that their historical narrative, now embedded in their neuro-circuitry of belief, is what has to be changed. There are no tricks or magic bullets. There is the rewiring of the observer of the self. zdo gave one of the better explanations of this process when he spoke of the desensitization process (of his fears and self limiting beliefs) that he muddled through as he evolved as a trader. The process rewired beliefs about self and uncertainty that opened the possibility of his trading on a new level. My point is that this process can be become more stream lined when we begin to understand how meaning is organized in the brain/mind

 

Rande Howell

Edited June 4, 2011 by Rande Howell

[stpips89 10]

People, in general, are willing to guarantee themselves a small gain, but less willing to guarantee themselves a small loss. This means they are willing to take larger risks when they are losing and are not willing to risk losing a small gain. To become a trader, you need to overcome this inherent flawed way of thinking. As a trader, you need to take advantage of the those who do have this flawed way of thinking. If you do not like the idea that you are taking advantage of the weaknesses of others, then you should probably not trade.

 

Imbedded above is the key to the thinking that will allow you to keep your losses small and let your winners run. Your strategy, set-up, analysis is completely secondary to the importance of the way you think. You do not need to know what the market is going to do, you do not need to know how to catch a trade close to the turn, you do not need to identify a pattern, and etc.; instead, you just need to know how to take money from it. It really is that simple. Catching the turn, trading a pattern that works, etc is certainly great when it happens and likely leads to a trade with a very large profit, but your profit will still depend upon your ability to let your profit run.

 

Once you get to thinking the right way, it is impossible to go back to thinking the wrong way and you will be taking more from the market than you will leave. You will also be disappointed at the amount you will be able to take in the long run.

 

 

MM

 

Good points and good post. Rande had a good post too above. I like this thread.

[MadMarketScientist 11]

People, in general, are willing to guarantee themselves a small gain, but less willing to guarantee themselves a small loss. This means they are willing to take larger risks when they are losing and are not willing to risk losing a small gain.

 

So true for inexperienced traders, holding on when everything is crashing around them because they don't want to make a paper loss real.

 

Once you get to thinking the right way, it is impossible to go back to thinking the wrong way and you will be taking more from the market than you will leave. You will also be disappointed at the amount you will be able to take in the long run.

MM

 

Why would you be "disappointed at the amount you will be able to take in the long run"?

 

MMS

[MightyMouse 12]

So true for inexperienced traders, holding on when everything is crashing around them because they don't want to make a paper loss real.

 

 

 

Why would you be "disappointed at the amount you will be able to take in the long run"?

 

MMS

 

MMS,

 

Trading is a very competitive business. It is hard to make or maintain a high ROR for a long time. Most people already know this.

 

MM

[MadMarketScientist 11]

MMS,

Trading is a very competitive business. It is hard to make or maintain a high ROR for a long time. Most people already know this.

MM

 

Oh I see. Yes it is hard to consistently beat the market, when the opportunity arises you have to take advantage and make your money and try to get out of losers quickly.

 

MMS