Tick Chart Pitfalls

[BennyHey 10]

One thing I have noticed is more and more traders are implementing tick charts in their trading now that they are available through most charting programs. While I use tick charts myself one thing traders must be aware of is using very low number tick charts. I see 89, 110, 150 etc. tick charts being used on the es and while that may be fine during slower market conditions it will move with incredible speed during high volume times.

 

Price will "jump" 3-4 bars in a split second not giving the trader enough time to place an order. While during backtesting/research when the data is still it may look like their is plenty of time to have your indicators trigger and enter an order but in reality it is impossible.

 

Take a look at the time on each bar, if you see 1:30min spacing during slower times and 20-30 seconds during faster times you can say it is a reasonable amount of time to see it, recognize it, move your mouse to your trading DOM or hotkey and press the button. On the other hand trying to get in and out of trades in a matter of seconds is unrealistic. Think about what has to happen.

 

You order have to recognize it, hit the button, the order has to travel from your computer, to the broker, and the broker then submits the order. BE WARY OF SLIPPAGE!!!

 

This image is from a 110 tick chart on the ES. From the time the MA's crossed to the second arrow it took less then 2 seconds. Looking at it as a static chart it looks very reasonable to scalp a little short. But the reality is unless you have a co-located supercomputer this move would have been impossible to catch unless you anticipated the move and got in early.

 

all the best to y'all

[Tradewinds 12]

I totally agree with you. And I can't remember ever reading another post that makes this point. I've read plenty of posts that mention slippage, and a fair amount of post that talk about things like co-located supercomputers, but I don't read a lot of posts about the difference between reading a historical chart and what happens in real time.

 

To take the subject to an ever deeper level, and ask some more questions, how can so many trades be executed so fast when the price only hits those price levels for a second or two? I'm not convinced that it's just a matter of co-located supercomputers. If the price is literally, only at that price level for a couple of seconds, AND if a lot of orders get executed in those couple of seconds, then the orders must either be from co-located supercomputers, OR there was a match up of buyers and sellers who had their orders in AHEAD OF TIME. In other words, they staked out a price, and waited for the market to come to them. I'm wondering if a good part of those order executions are from orders that where put in ahead of time, maybe by traders with large orders. That would be something I'd be very interested in learning about.

 

Think about it. Let's say there was a buyer and a seller who wanted to buy and sell at the same price. Both the buyer and the seller put their orders in. But even though there is a buyer and a seller, the market price isn't at that price. So there could already be a pre-existing match up of a buyer and a seller at a certain price, but the order doesn't execute because the market price hasn't gone to that price level. I'm wondering if there are only a few people who would have access to that information. I'm not sure how that would work, but if market makers knew there were a lot of buyers and sellers at a certain price level, the market makers might try to move the market price towards those buyers and sellers so that those orders could execute.

 

I have no idea if that is how it works, or partly how it works, but it would be interesting to know.

[BennyHey 10]

I totally agree with you. And I can't remember ever reading another post that makes this point. I've read plenty of posts that mention slippage, and a fair amount of post that talk about things like co-located supercomputers, but I don't read a lot of posts about the difference between reading a historical chart and what happens in real time.

 

To take the subject to an ever deeper level, and ask some more questions, how can so many trades be executed so fast when the price only hits those price levels for a second or two? I'm not convinced that it's just a matter of co-located supercomputers. If the price is literally, only at that price level for a couple of seconds, AND if a lot of orders get executed in those couple of seconds, then the orders must either be from co-located supercomputers, OR there was a match up of buyers and sellers who had their orders in AHEAD OF TIME. In other words, they staked out a price, and waited for the market to come to them. I'm wondering if a good part of those order executions are from orders that where put in ahead of time, maybe by traders with large orders. That would be something I'd be very interested in learning about.

 

Think about it. Let's say there was a buyer and a seller who wanted to buy and sell at the same price. Both the buyer and the seller put their orders in. But even though there is a buyer and a seller, the market price isn't at that price. So there could already be a pre-existing match up of a buyer and a seller at a certain price, but the order doesn't execute because the market price hasn't gone to that price level. I'm wondering if there are only a few people who would have access to that information. I'm not sure how that would work, but if market makers knew there were a lot of buyers and sellers at a certain price level, the market makers might try to move the market price towards those buyers and sellers so that those orders could execute.

 

I have no idea if that is how it works, or partly how it works, but it would be interesting to know.

 

Good points, I was gearing this more toward the average trader but you bring up some good food for thought I live in chicago and have been on the floor a few times. We actually took a field-trip to the CME when I was in grade school.

 

Anyway I will chip in my 2 cents by sharing what I know. What you see as "price" is actually 2 numbers, a bid and an ask. There are market makers competing against each other to provide the lowest bid and highest ask in order to create a market. In a heavily traded market the spread, "difference between the bid and ask" is usually just a tick. In a lower volume period the spread will become wider as the environment is much riskier for the MM so he must widen the spread to protect himself. Watch the YM overnight and you can see 3-4 tick spreads.

 

During regular market hours there are the MM competing against each other for your business. They buy and sell out of their inventory to sell it to someone else to make a profit. A dream scenario for the MM would be a price that does not move. They could then continually sell the bid then turn and sell that contract on the ask in order to make the .25 tick profit(on the ES).

 

Another big component of liquidity is the big brokerage house who have huge amounts of cash to buy and sell in order to make $$$$ for themselves. They are the ones who have people on the floor buying and selling.

 

Now in the computer age there are also ALGO's and bot programs buying and selling at incredible speeds (often owned by the big brokerage houses again) . An analogy I heard once that I like was: "Its like running back and fourth in front of a bulldozer picking up pennies" They have computers processing order flows and statical probability models that when X and XY conditions are present they can put several orders in and cancel them faster then it takes to blink an eye. A great video is this one by none other then SoulTrader. He has a time and sales window that not only shows trades but also orders placed and cancelled in a matter of seconds. Great stuff

 

[Tams 20]

tick chart is the most inconsistent and inaccurate chart you can use for trading analysis...

because most of the data supplier aggregate the ticks in their data feed,

you really don't know how much you can rely on your the chart's oscillations.

[joshdance 10]

how can so many trades be executed so fast when the price only hits those price levels for a second or two? I'm not convinced that it's just a matter of co-located supercomputers.

 

Isn't the simple conclusion that two computer programs are trading with each other? One reloads the bid, the other is selling at the market. They fire thousands of orders per second. This happens all day, every day. Or perhaps I'm not understanding what you're talking about.

[Logic 10]

tick chart is the most inconsistent and inaccurate chart you can use for trading analysis...

because most of the data supplier aggregate the ticks in their data feed,

you really don't know how much you can rely on your the chart's oscillations.

 

Hey Tams!

 

You hit the nail on the head with this comment. It amazes me that people don't research their trading environment more so they see the areas of absolute chaos the charting platforms create for traders to fall prey to.

[TimRacette 11]

Benny- I use a 512t chart on the ES and around news announcements even THAT time frame can become erratic. The problem with executing orders on any time frame smaller is that you're entering the realm of high frequency and program traders who have computer systems to react to those moves way faster than a screen trader can manually enter orders.

 

The big money is made in the larger move. Trade the trend until it fails.

[BlowFish 10]

tick chart is the most inconsistent and inaccurate chart you can use for trading analysis...

because most of the data supplier aggregate the ticks in their data feed,

you really don't know how much you can rely on your the chart's oscillations.

 

The term GIGO springs to mind

 

Volume charts are indeed more 'resilient' to aggregating, that in and of itself does not make them 'better'.

[Logic 10]

Volume charts are indeed more 'resilient' to aggregating, that in and of itself does not make them 'better'.

 

Could you clarify this point please?

[BlowFish 10]

Could you clarify this point please?

 

Using IB as an example they aggregate a bunch of trades (ticks) if they all occur within xxx milliseconds of each other into one single tick. You have a variable amount of ticks that are essentially 'lost'. i.e. you can not reconstruct how many trades there where. They do however still report all the volume that occurred from the aggregated trades in there single trade/tick update. So a constant volume chart with their data looks pretty much like a constant volume chart with an un aggregated feed.

[Logic 10]

Using IB as an example they aggregate a bunch of trades (ticks) if they all occur within xxx milliseconds of each other into one single tick. You have a variable amount of ticks that are essentially 'lost'. i.e. you can not reconstruct how many trades there where. They do however still report all the volume that occurred from the aggregated trades in there single trade/tick update. So a constant volume chart with their data looks pretty much like a constant volume chart with an un aggregated feed.

 

Absolutely agree!

Thnaks for the clarification of your point.

[trendinglife 10]

What about range bars? Are they better? One thing about them is that on slow markets especially when the price is caught it a tight range you just see a single bar for very long time.

Can anyone share their thoughts about using range bars?

[eqsys 10]

I have done extensive testing and trading of systems using tick bars with TradeStation. The tick data is only available back 6 months - so not enough data to get a proper analysis. I have done extensive testing of the same systems using bars of various lengths - tick and intra-day bars (1min, 2min, 5min, 10min, 15min, 20min, 30min, daily).

 

My conclusion is this: tick bars have insufficent data to test and the backtest takes too long. The bar lengths of less than 10 minutes take a LONG time to backtest a volume of data - minimun of one year of data. The performance results don't really change that much whether I'm testing tick or 1 min out to about 30min bars, so why use the tick or 1 or 2 min bars?

 

You would think that by using the tick or 1 min bars you'd be able to catch the moves more quickly, but I have found that this also results in catching false moves. There is a lot of "noice" in the markets - prices rise and fall as traders enter and exit positions for unknown reasons. It's easy to get sucked into overtrading.

 

Also, having tick or 1 or 2 minute charts with systems and indicators added to the charts pushes my computer to the max. So, it's just more efficient not to trade the tick or 1 or 2 min bars.

 

I use automated execution enabled - there is no way a person can react fast enough to catch some of these entry and exit points when the market is moving rapidly.

 

In the late 1990's I filled my office with computers, data feeds and phones and set out to day trade futures - this was BEFORE auto execution with TradeStation.

 

I went at it for a couple of days and it was emotionally exhausting. By the time I was able to see the signals on the charts, call the trades into my broker and get filled - it was too late. I was consistently losing on trade after trade. Real time results did NOT match theoretical back test results.

 

Also, I realized I couldn't divert my attention away from the computer screens. As I say, "life happens when you're trying to trade". Example: the market is moving rapidly and you're waiting for a signal - the phone rings, you have to go to the bathroom, somebody is at your door, you hear a crashing sound in the other room, the power goes out, your computer freezes, you get a headache, etc.

 

After two days I stopped the madness, and stopped losing money. Experiment failed.

 

Now, I test systems and let the computer make the trades for me. Occasionally I do lose power and have computer problems, but the trades are spaced fairly wide apart in time, and the problems are far and few - and I always use automated trading, so I don't have to stare at the screen anymore.

[Logic 10]

What about range bars? Are they better? One thing about them is that on slow markets especially when the price is caught it a tight range you just see a single bar for very long time.

Can anyone share their thoughts about using range bars?

 

You just described one of the major pitfalls of range bars. There is a problem with artificially encapsulating trades inside ranges that do not represent to free flow of price and volume. No one can accurately nor consistently read price and volume in these environments.

[joshdance 10]

What about range bars? Are they better? One thing about them is that on slow markets especially when the price is caught it a tight range you just see a single bar for very long time.

Can anyone share their thoughts about using range bars?

 

Each chart type has its own advantages and disadvantages.

 

Range bars allow the trader to focus on ranges of price, by eliminating time and volume.

Volume bars allow the trader to focus on price based in the activity (volume) of the market, by eliminating time.

Time bars allow the trader to focus on price over a period of time, by eliminating volume.

Tick bars allow the trader to focus on transactions, by eliminating time.

 

Renko, Kase, Point and figure, all of them have their own use. No bar type is "superior" just as no time frame or market or trading platform or anything else is "superior." Each has its own purpose, and as long as it's used for that purpose, it can be the right tool for the job. And don't let anyone tell you that a certain type of chart is superior or inferior in the broad sense. It's a case of "my religion is better than yours," and it's either self-delusion or marketing.

[eqsys 10]

One of the major problems we face as traders is the challenge of infinite possibilities. There are virtually unlimited types of systems, time frames, and chart types, stocks, futures, options, Forex, spreads etc. . How many lifetimes do you have to test all of these?

 

And you absolutely know that somebody out there has figured this all out and is making tons of money, but isn't going to tell anyone what they are doing. All you have to do is just keep plugging away and you'll eventually hit the mother lode - maybe.

 

So, what I do is try to keep things fairly simple. I suggest : trade what you know, make sure your system is fairly simple, and you understand what it's doing and why, keep the leverage down, and always trade your BEST system. Try to improve the system by increasing gains and reducing drawdown if possible. Try to maximize that gain/drawdown ratio. And, I mean intraday drawdown, NOT closed trade drawdown. You may experience a lot of drawdown before a trade actually closes. And, it's when you get hit with that drawdown that you're tempted to do something stupid.

 

I use a form of "natural selection" - I trade my best system(s) until I come up with something better, then switch to that. You find what works, and what works for you - emotionally and financially.

[BlowFish 10]

What about range bars? Are they better? One thing about them is that on slow markets especially when the price is caught it a tight range you just see a single bar for very long time.

Can anyone share their thoughts about using range bars?

 

It's not a question of 'better'. They all have different characteristics that can hide (filter) or emphasise certain information. They all have a different 'look and feel'. For example if I look at a plain price chart with hand drawn horizontal support/resistance I like plain old fashioned constant time charts. I like to instantly see if price spent a long time at a level (a little boxy range) or was quickly rejected (a long tail or an up bar followed by a down bar). If I am looking at something that has anything that remotely resembles an indicator (cumulative delta, trade intensity or similar) I will almost certainly go for constant volume, it's just smoother.

 

Just a couple of examples. Really its only a data sampling issue. Sample the data to best show what you want to see.

[Logic 10]

Each chart type has its own advantages and disadvantages.

 

Range bars allow the trader to focus on ranges of price, by eliminating time and volume.

Volume bars allow the trader to focus on price based in the activity (volume) of the market, by eliminating time.

Time bars allow the trader to focus on price over a period of time, by eliminating volume.

Tick bars allow the trader to focus on transactions, by eliminating time.

 

Renko, Kase, Point and figure, all of them have their own use. No bar type is "superior" just as no time frame or market or trading platform or anything else is "superior." Each has its own purpose, and as long as it's used for that purpose, it can be the right tool for the job. And don't let anyone tell you that a certain type of chart is superior or inferior in the broad sense. It's a case of "my religion is better than yours," and it's either self-delusion or marketing.

 

 

trendinglife,

 

Josh as clearly pointed out the 4 best chart type examples but I will elaborate a bit. One of these "WILL" end up being superior to "YOU". It will take testing on your part to determine which chart type that is.

 

1. Range bars allow the trader to focus on ranges of price, by eliminating time and volume.

 

Range bars do not eliminate time, no price bars do but they do eliminate pure price flow. Range bars encapsulate price action into artificial man made ranges. The disadvantage here is the elimination pure price flow. The advantage is that in liquid fast directional moves in price it is easier to extract profit from the moves. The problem here is that during periods of price and oscillation consolidation there is little or no opportunity to trade successfully.

 

2. Volume bars allow the trader to focus on price based in the activity (volume) of the market, by eliminating time.

 

Volume Bars do not eliminate time, no price bars do. Volume bars are a pure reflection of price flow by going you a chart view of price action from a reference of perfectly weighted price bars. The advantage is that all variability and inconsistency that is embedded in range, time and tick bars are eliminated so you are left with pure price action. the disadvantage is that since you have pure price action you have to test different chart increments to find a chart that you personally are visually comfortable with. These bars the most accurate in regards to price action but also take the most patience to use.

 

3. Time bars allow the trader to focus on price over a period of time, by eliminating volume.

 

Time bars do eliminate volume which is an intricate part of the chart/market viewing process. I've researched charts and the markets for going on 20 years and I can tell you that eliminating any aspect of the essential information the charts/markets provides us as traders or investors is not going to lead to consistent success or profits. It is an impossibility to successfully solve any problem by eliminating one of the essential parts of that problem. the advantage of time charts is to visually see spikes or large ranges in price immediately following reports. (These I am told are advantages though I have yet to determine how these random spikes assist in consistent profitability). I personally consider those spikes as a gross disadvantage but I am bias.

 

4. Tick bars allow the trader to focus on transactions, by eliminating time.

 

Tick bars do not eliminate time either but they do eliminate all consistency of price action. Since a "tick", in this instance is by definition a transaction, a transaction size can be anywhere from 1 contract to thousands of contracts. That shear variable aspect is ridiculous but to make matters worse, since August of 2006 GLOBEX has decided to arbitrarily combine ticks as they enter and exit their environment so all aspects of pure price flow is lost. Transactional ticks provide volume data though.

 

On top of the consistencies and inconsistencies the chart bar types offer each of us the data providers and chart software providers add other variables to the equation that is also a problem.

 

Some data providers do not provide all ticks (volume is embedded in the transactional ticks). Some data providers only offer "snap shots" of the data as it comes out of GLOBEX. This eliminates parts of the data that is essential. Be sure that if you require real time data you get an honest answer from your provider that they provide "ALL" of the GLOBEX data they are given. Some data providers, during peak liquidity times, purposely or inadvertently drop data packages and then reassemble then correctly at the end of the day so one must refresh or reload their data to see what really happened. Again check with your data provider for their procedures. Finally data providers offer varying amounts of historic data. Some offer none which means all of the historic data you have is what you save on your own. Others offer as much as 3 years worth of data. I currently use eSignal but will be switching to BarCharts data soon.

 

Chart platforms offer yet another level of angst. These range from bugs to inaccurate reading of data. I've either tested personally or had others test the following programs with different data feeds for accuracy and consistency; Ensign, MultiCharts, Sierra Charts, Tradestation, NinjaTrader, eSignal and Amibroker. My favorite is MultiCharts but it isn't perfect, no software is. NinjaTrader is my second choice. Each of the other charting platforms create problems I personally can't tolerate. Now you might find that one of those is adequate for your needs and that is fine.

 

The process of getting a combination of accurate charting platform, comfortable trading platform, honest broker, consistent data provider and visually appealing charting environment is a process most traders do not want to deal with. This is a time consuming process that most people try to find short cuts to. Let me tell you the the only place short cuts will lead you, is failure.

[Tams 20]

there is a difference between eliminating time and ignoring time.

[Logic 10]

there is a difference between eliminating time and ignoring time.

 

Perfectly clarified . . .

 

You are correct, thank you.

[joshdance 10]

Logic, fallacy of your volume bar religion is that you use terms like "pure price flow" which can be interpreted any number of ways, as it's not well-defined. You may choose to define it, but your definition is not THE definition, as I don't think you or anyone can define "pure" in the sense of price.

 

When I say that a certain bar type, such as range, "eliminates" time, what I mean is that it does not include time as an input in the formation of a bar. Is that definition clear enough?

 

Range bars do not eliminate time, no price bars do but they do eliminate pure price flow. Range bars encapsulate price action into artificial man made ranges. The disadvantage here is the elimination pure price flow. The advantage is that in liquid fast directional moves in price it is easier to extract profit from the moves. The problem here is that during periods of price and oscillation consolidation there is little or no opportunity to trade successfully.

 

Another (and range bar users would say possibly more important) advantage of range bars is not really in the extraction of profit, but rather in the hiding of ranging activity, which is advantageous for traders who want to eliminate the noise that happens in small trading ranges. Personally I find range bars unusable for me, but many people use them and are successful with them.

 

Volume Bars do not eliminate time, no price bars do. Volume bars are a pure reflection of price flow by going you a chart view of price action from a reference of perfectly weighted price bars. The advantage is that all variability and inconsistency that is embedded in range, time and tick bars are eliminated so you are left with pure price action. the disadvantage is that since you have pure price action you have to test different chart increments to find a chart that you personally are visually comfortable with. These bars the most accurate in regards to price action but also take the most patience to use.

 

All bar types have the "disadvantage" as you call it of having to choose periods or ranges to use in bar formation. The primary disadvantage of volume charts is that, in ignoring time as an input in their formation, they fail to show how long price spent at an area, which is useful information for some traders.

 

Time bars do eliminate volume which is an intricate part of the chart/market viewing process. ... It is an impossibility to successfully solve any problem by eliminating one of the essential parts of that problem. the advantage of time charts is to visually see spikes or large ranges in price immediately following reports. (These I am told are advantages though I have yet to determine how these random spikes assist in consistent profitability). I personally consider those spikes as a gross disadvantage but I am bias.

 

Yes, you are biased Logic, being the "father of volume bars," and that is what prevents you from being objective in this discussion. To your point of time charts, I have never heard that the advantage is in seeing news spikes. Quite ridiculous. For volume, which I consider crucial as do you, I simply put a volume study on my chart, thus I am able to determine things such as when volume entered a market over a short period of time, which is useful information to me, something that a volume chart will only show in real-time formation, and not historically, as does a time chart.

[Logic 10]

Logic, fallacy of your volume bar religion is that you use terms like "pure price flow" which can be interpreted any number of ways, as it's not well-defined. You may choose to define it, but your definition is not THE definition, as I don't think you or anyone can define "pure" in the sense of price.

 

When I say that a certain bar type, such as range, "eliminates" time, what I mean is that it does not include time as an input in the formation of a bar. Is that definition clear enough?

 

Another (and range bar users would say possibly more important) advantage of range bars is not really in the extraction of profit, but rather in the hiding of ranging activity, which is advantageous for traders who want to eliminate the noise that happens in small trading ranges. Personally I find range bars unusable for me, but many people use them and are successful with them.

 

All bar types have the "disadvantage" as you call it of having to choose periods or ranges to use in bar formation. The primary disadvantage of volume charts is that, in ignoring time as an input in their formation, they fail to show how long price spent at an area, which is useful information for some traders.

 

Yes, you are biased Logic, being the "father of volume bars," and that is what prevents you from being objective in this discussion. To your point of time charts, I have never heard that the advantage is in seeing news spikes. Quite ridiculous. For volume, which I consider crucial as do you, I simply put a volume study on my chart, thus I am able to determine things such as when volume entered a market over a short period of time, which is useful information to me, something that a volume chart will only show in real-time formation, and not historically, as does a time chart.

 

Pure can be defined as "not tainted by an "outside influences or variables". Simply ask any scientist about tainting environment and the results they produce. My definition of "Constant Volume Bar" charts is all that matters because I invented them and no one has proved that definition wrong. You are welcome to try using math proofs not by simply saying, "because I said so".

 

Tams correction of terms is perfect. It isn't an elimination of time but ignoring it. Any part of a problem that is ignored is a further problem to finding an accurate solution to the problem.

 

Your explanation of range bars and mine are the same, just described differently.

 

I do not ignore time nor do I need a price bar to give me that information. I trade each chart and can clearly see how much time price spends in particular ranges. My volume charts specifically show when those ranges consolidate and when they are breaking out. I again can clearly see the time it takes to achieve each task or event. The amount of time it takes to complete each event is irrelevant to me though I stated it can be used by others. The important and critical information to me and any trader should be "the exact point the event begins" & "the exact point the event ends".

 

I know traders that use those spikes in time charts but I've been trading and researching these charts/markets for many more years than you have. I don't use them and never said they were useful.

 

I was taught as a lad to always respect experience from others. Maybe you weren't taught this. I was also taught ask questions. I have many more years experience than you do Josh at researching and trading these markets. I would not have created volume bars if I had proved that the existing environments offered a better way to make profit. I'm not saying that others like yourself can't profit from other environments because they do. What I'm saying is that until you put in the time EQUALLY evaluating all of the charting environments as I have (nearly 20 years) you are in no position to tell me what I know as fact, is wrong.

[joshdance 10]

I have many more years experience than you do Josh at researching and trading these markets. ... What I'm saying is that until you put in the time EQUALLY evaluating all of the charting environments as I have (nearly 20 years) you are in no position to tell me what I know as fact, is wrong.

 

Yes you do Logic, and I very much respect that experience. Trust me, I do, and I wish I had the same experience. But between us in our discussions, I am the only one who has consistently, objectively stated facts. You have made blanket, general, subjective statements based on your personal opinions and labeled them as facts (such as defining what is "best" or "pure" or "most accurate"). I greatly respect you or anyone who has lots of market experience, but I must admit that I do have no respect for the act of dogmatically stating personal opinion as fact and insisting that others agree with it. Sure, your opinion is based on your years of research, but it's very specific to how YOU trade and operate in the market. Yet, you make it sound as if it should be the same way for everyone. Please tell me, what fact have you stated that I have disagreed with?

[Logic 10]

Yes you do Logic, and I very much respect that experience. Trust me, I do, and I wish I had the same experience. But between us in our discussions, I am the only one who has consistently, objectively stated facts. You have made blanket, general, subjective statements based on your personal opinions and labeled them as facts (such as defining what is "best" or "pure" or "most accurate"). I greatly respect you or anyone who has lots of market experience, but I must admit that I do have no respect for the act of dogmatically stating personal opinion as fact and insisting that others agree with it. Sure, your opinion is based on your years of research, but it's very specific to how YOU trade and operate in the market. Yet, you make it sound as if it should be the same way for everyone. Please tell me, what fact have you stated that I have disagreed with?

 

Having a conversation with you is fruitless.

I researched these charts/markets for years testing them and trial trading them before I jumped in with both feet, trading them for a living.

I did exhaustive tests of time based charts for more years than you have been trading.

I did exhaustive tests of tick based charts (before and after GLOBEX destroyed them) for more years than you have been trading.

I did exhaustive tests of range, equi-volume and candlestick based charts for more years than you have been trading.

All of those years of testing led me to create the constant volume bar charts due to what all of the others chart type lacked and that was balance and consistency. Constant volume bar chart offer the user a pure view of price action that they can regulate based on their own personal choice of speed. They are naturally balanced and precisely accurate for what they are.

 

I have never ever ever said that everyone should use them. I said that everyone should test them against their own personal trading method. There are many ways to profit from these markets/charts but the more experience one gets the more one learns what he likes, what he doesn't like and what he can profit best using.

 

I got my nickname because my second degree was in Math and I learned a true fondness for Logic. I won awards in school for it and was chosen over 5 Ph D's with a measly B.S. degree for a position at Raytheon Corp. as an apprentice working with their best problem solver at IBM in their training division. That was over 30 years ago. Since then I have eaten and slept logic, first in corporate American in a problem solving position and for the last nearly 20 years, researching price action. Everything I do is 100% objective and programmable. Nothing I do is subjective.

 

I have a musician in LA that trades my stuff you should talk to.

That being said we are done.

[joshdance 10]

I'm sorry you feel that way, that it's fruitless--I just have a difference in certain opinions with you, that's all. As I've said before, I love volume charts. And I do respect your many years of research and your extensive education. In fact, I have some pretty volume charts on my screen right now, and they are very nice to look at, and very helpful in visual back testing key levels. Happy trading Logic--I hope you understand where I'm coming from.