Trading Not to Lose: A Disguised Fear of Loss and the Future

[steve46 12]

Well John I am not at all confused.

 

It took me years to learn a simple lesson, and that is ....to the extent that we can THINK and ACT in a specific way..we can obtain a non-random outcome in our lives...by their actions, people in effect choose to be winners or losers....

 

Now I don't expect everyone to agree, or for that matter to understand what that means, but I know that it works....in our lives and in terms of our possible sucess in the markets...and I am able to demonstrate it every day.....

 

Random chance (what most people call "luck") is a part of our lives, and on an individual basis NO ONE can know how it will play out....but for a longer series of events, if a person prepares intelligently and makes smart choices, they can in effect "make" their own "luck".....

 

I am hopeful that people will make good choices in life and I intend to help if I can.

 

That is why I wish everyone "Good Luck"...

[johnw 10]

Well John I am not at all confused.

 

That is why I wish everyone "Good Luck"...

 

Excellent work as usual Steve

[steve46 12]

Nice to receive a complement from an intelligent observer...I am sure you are making your own good luck...

 

Edit

 

You know, I was going to close up shop for the afternoon and then I thought "why not post this just in case someone out there likes to

trade the Globex"...

 

The attached screen shot shows a couple of important data items for those interested....

First....if you check the long term chart on the left...you can see what the market bias is (clearly its up)

Second, if you look at the shorter time frame chart (15 min) you my see where I have my supply/demand nodes in place...The important "take away" from my point of view is that these S/D areas continue to be viable into the future....thats why I leave them in place...

Today when the Globex opened I waited for price to test the upper boundary of the S/D area and I jumped on (knowing/accepting that I had risk down to 1325.75)

 

For me this is a high probability entry, because my long term chart shows significant market bias. Also I interpret the previous move down as an unsuccessful attempt to find sellers....once I see that there is no selling interest..well....

 

Hope this is of help to someone out there..

Edited April 3, 2011 by steve46

[Tradewinds 12]

Tradewinds you don't seem to get it...If you benefit from applying Jungian principles to your trading or your life, then go do that....and God Bless you....problem solved

 

For me, this forum is part of a "screening process"...evaluating this thread and the author (Rande) I noticed that his example and his advice, would actually be counterproductive for some traders (as mentioned in my previous post)...This and other similar posts suggests to me that Rande is either incompetent or ignorant....I have learned that to succeed I need to have the best possible advice and tools...so unfortunately I have to cross the gentleman's name off my list....

 

Good luck in the markets everyone.

 

Steve, when I provide my opinions and thoughts, I try to do so in a neutral way, and not make it personal. But at this point, you have intentionally made it a point to initiate taking it to the subtle insult level, by stating that "I just don't get it". Writing something like, "I don't seem to get it", is pathetically petty. That's the real point here.

On one hand, you are telling me, that if it works for me, then fine, you are happy for me, and why don't I just shut up and go away. That's your mentality. But you won't live by the same standard. If you don't like it, they why don't you just keep quite and go away? You are telling me to do something that you refuse to do.

I didn't initiate making this issue personal. It seems like your mentality is; that it's okay for you to make your subtly insulting innuendos, but I should just keep quite and go away.

If you want to cross the gentleman's name off your list, then cross it off your list. Do you understand my point? You are telling me that if it's of some value to me, that your happy for me, and good luck. If I value this thread, then why would I just go away? That doesn't make any sense. Maybe I'm wrong, but your wishes of "Good Luck" at the end of your posts seem arrogantly sarcastic.

[steve46 12]

It seems as though almost everyone is petty to you sir or madam...From my point of view that means A.) you might be right, or B) you may have a significant emotional issue to deal with (look up paranoia for example)....

 

I think its been quite a long time since I acted in a "petty" manner, but I will leave that distinction to others where it belongs....

 

and thanks for this revealing demonstration of how Rande's concept has benefitted you...

Edited April 4, 2011 by steve46

[SIUYA 11]

But the crazy irony here, is that the people who seem to be the most aggravated by what Rande is teaching, have adopted a belief system of "dog eat dog", "eat what you kill", "I'm going to take every penny you have" mentality. And it seems to me, like you guys feel that your belief system is being threatened. When somebody's belief system is threatened, it threatens the very foundation that their whole world is built on. That's what I think is going on here.

 

This is the mumbo jumbo referred to....plus what I would see as the original insult to anyone in this thread:2c:

It happened post 42.....

 

To me when someone tries to attack another by saying "you must be threatened by others etc", or let me help you find a better way, your world is not sound....etc; etc; etc; this is the problem with cultish like comment.

 

If I have mis interpreted it, then I apologise, but I have seen enough folks who are true believers of something try and say its the best and the rest is wrong.

For me end of story.

[Rande Howell 10]

Originally Posted by Rande Howell View Post

 

When he looked at his ratio of winners to losers, he smiled. It was good. It was very good. ... The problem was that he was not entering enough trades to make a comfortable living.

 

 

 

The situation that is being described with the trader, is that; even if you gave this trader "Steve" good advice about trading strategy, he still would not be able to effectively execute it. You asked "why" the trader "Steve" doesn't adjust his trading strategy. The point is, that trader "Steve" has probably already adjusted his trading strategy a million times, and still can't execute the trade. The issue is, that the trader enters the order at the outside boundary, because of the fear of draw down. He is trying to be "safe", but ends up sabotaging the entry.

 

Bingo. Hidden beliefs sabotage rational trade plan.

 

Rande Howell

[johnw 10]

Originally Posted by Tradewinds View Post

Originally Posted by Rande Howell View Post

 

When he looked at his ratio of winners to losers, he smiled. It was good. It was very good. ... The problem was that he was not entering enough trades to make a comfortable living.

 

 

 

The situation that is being described with the trader, is that; even if you gave this trader "Steve" good advice about trading strategy, he still would not be able to effectively execute it. You asked "why" the trader "Steve" doesn't adjust his trading strategy. The point is, that trader "Steve" has probably already adjusted his trading strategy a million times, and still can't execute the trade. The issue is, that the trader enters the order at the outside boundary, because of the fear of draw down. He is trying to be "safe", but ends up sabotaging the entry.

 

 

Bingo. Hidden beliefs sabotage rational trade plan.

 

Rande Howell

 

 

 

Even this example doesn't fully embrace "tight stops"

 

The pursuit of an ES Trading Plan that embraces tight stops is a worthy one as the outcome is a high reward/ risk and coupled with a high % accuracy, thus your trading will enter a new dimension as size grows.

 

If Steve was frightened of losing money, then so be it .... it is beyond me to know this or comment.

But, please do not assume that any ongoing desire to produce a simple and lethally effective ES plan is anything other than what I have described ... it is borne of an ongoing desire to achieve.

 

Where is the fear in that I ask.

 

Watching the screen can do funny things to your head and often has the opposite outcome to that which you are trying to effect... it is as though you are pushing away the very thing you are trying to embrace.

 

Therefore [in my case at least] screen time is rationed to comply with a work list I compile for when I am not trading but I am looking for something.

 

It goes like this.

Firstly I sit in a quietly and place my query into my mind. What eventually comes back is my work list and that evolves into my plan.

I do this for everything in life, including trading and I have done so for a long long time.

It has become better and better the more I practice it and I give full credit to the "Back Office"

I figure that if the Back Office can keep me breathing when I am asleep, then I just want to give them a nudge and find out what they are really capable of.

 

Back to "tight stops"

 

The ES is only difficult when you don't know what you are doing.

But on the bright side ......

It has a marked tendency to revert on itself at definable levels.

Trades are being placed in both directions simultaneously which means if you are fading correctly the fills are nearly always good and clean.

And it carries size ... lots and lots of size.

 

So all Steve needs to do is unfold the mystery of TIMING and he can have his cake and eat it too.... because tight stops come from Timing....PRICE and TIME

Edited April 4, 2011 by johnw

[jaysmith124 10]

Steve has fear preventing him from executing his plan. Preventing him from thinking clearly, rationally, leaving him wondering why he took action against his common sense.

 

I have attached an attempted trade to show that I was dealing with a similar situation. I placed an order to buy JNPR at 40.05, and missed it. I missed it but I am not adjusting anything. I felt like, Oh well. While analyzing the situation, and amagining how I would manage the position if I had been filled. Turns out that I would have stopped out near my entry price.

 

Then another opportunity arose but my concentration was not ready for an assertive rebounding readiness. I populated my platform with a buy price at 39.86 as the price action moved up. Again I let it go without chasing it.

 

I am not changing anything but my concentration to be ready for a speedier reaction to the set up opportunities presented to me.

 

The fear that Steve experienced was the fear of loss. The fear that I use to have included, and came from, multiple sources.

1. Fear of loss

2. Fear of what others will think.

3. Avoidance of feeling humiliated

4. Avoidance of feeling embarrassed

5. Fear that if I win the way I can will attract, and cause, others I know to begrudge me.

6. Abandoned, because those I thought and wanted as friends will hate me.

7. Fear of regret.

8.Fear of uncertainty

9. Wondering what the price of fame, fortune, power. do I deserve it?

10. Fear of loneliness

11. Fear of giving away too much and empowering others.

12, Fear of being attacked.

 

 

This was in the past until recently examining the possibilities of my fear based emotions, and breaking apart these irrational, exaggerated, fears. Replacing them with new beliefs that no longer carry the intense emotions from distorted thinking.

 

It is a matter of thinking a certain way and acting a certain way. I have a belief(a standard heard from Ari Kiev) that if I am not making at least $1000 per day I should be doing something else. The day is very close and if it was not for understanding how my mind controls the brain (my persona wanting to be strong as it had always been didn't want to go there into the girly type journaling, and getting in touch with my feelings, etc.) A distorted belief in itself.

 

I attached a video recording of when I placed the order and canceled it after the price moved away. Then a snap shot of the order. I wish teachers that lead you to believe they trade for a living would show their results. If they honestly state that they don't trade, then that is ok, but I was deceived by them taking advantage of my enthusiasm and false beliefs.

 

So, when it comes to a negative world view, or positive world view, I can do either. When I enter a trade to buy, or sell, it is a gray area where we can choose what to believe. If I imagine the other side of my transaction is a person I have been wronged with, or of that character, I can choose to laugh with exuberant joy that I took their hard earned money away. Hopefully, leaving them in trouble with their wife.

Or, I can choose to believe that the other side of my transactions are traders who are taking profits from earlier trades, or needing a position for a longer term trade where they will take profits at some point.

 

Looking at the price action of JNPR, I would have a stop at 40. Currently, 40.03

 

P.S.

VA hospital has Doctors who help combat vets get over PTSD. They don't know what it is like to be in combat, yet most are grateful for the help they are getting.

 

Forgot to attach. Next time.

[$5DAW 10]

Wow,,,,, jaysmith124,, you sure have a lot going on in your head when you enter a trade. K.I.S.S. keep it simple silly It's only a trade !

Edited April 4, 2011 by $5DAW

[Tradewinds 12]

It seems as though almost everyone is petty to you sir or madam...From my point of view that means A.) you might be right, or B) you may have a significant emotional issue to deal with (look up paranoia for example)....

 

I think its been quite a long time since I acted in a "petty" manner, but I will leave that distinction to others where it belongs....

 

and thanks for this revealing demonstration of how Rande's concept has benefitted you...

 

This interaction between you and I is an example of emotions triggering an automatic response. That is what is happening here. Emotional triggers illicit an automatic response that shuts down the ability of the cerebral cortex to think. The emotional brain takes control. The higher level brain shuts down, and the lower level brain takes over. Most people have no control over this automatic, pre-programed behavior. They can't control themselves, and they are powerless to do anything about it. They allow the faulty program to dictate their behavior. This is something that I have learned from the book, Mindful Trading.

 

Even though being accused of being paranoid makes me want to attack back, I am aware of how I can be sucked into this automatic behavior, and I'm focusing on the effort of being impartial. This is the kind of behavior that a trader needs to make accurate decisions in the market.

 

This is an excellent example of what the book Mindful Trading teaches, and illustrates how we can modify and guide our behavior.

 

Right now you would be "revenge trading", while I would simply be managing risk.

[jaysmith124 10]

I want to point out how limiting, unrealistic, behavior infects us.

We have a need to want to be somebody. Want to be respected and valued. Basically, to be important.

So much so, that we will lie, and deceive, even ourselves. Most of the time it is very obvious.

 

Hence, we have the term charlatans. Who's behind that curtain operating the wizard of OZ?

Some hide, and others think it is acceptable behavior.

 

I was watching a French reporter who was along with, and reporting on the Libyan rebel fighters. Many was the first time they held a weapon. They were held down behind a sand berm. One guy was yelling at another to get down, get down, stupid! They eventually were taken out, but while on film, the one guy who was in charge got on the radio yelling to higher ups, that they had taken out 24 armored vehicles, and were forging ahead capturing so many miles of land. The truth was nothing of the sort.

 

When you do not maintain an Adult state it is easy to caught up with your Adult being contaminated by either, or both, a Parent or Child states.

[MightyMouse 12]

I want to point out how limiting, unrealistic, behavior infects us.

We have a need to want to be somebody. Want to be respected and valued. Basically, to be important.

So much so, that we will lie, and deceive, even ourselves. Most of the time it is very obvious.

 

Hence, we have the term charlatans. Who's behind that curtain operating the wizard of OZ?

Some hide, and others think it is acceptable behavior.

 

I was watching a French reporter who was along with, and reporting on the Libyan rebel fighters. Many was the first time they held a weapon. They were held down behind a sand berm. One guy was yelling at another to get down, get down, stupid! They eventually were taken out, but while on film, the one guy who was in charge got on the radio yelling to higher ups, that they had taken out 24 armored vehicles, and were forging ahead capturing so many miles of land. The truth was nothing of the sort.

 

When you do not maintain an Adult state it is easy to caught up with your Adult being contaminated by either, or both, a Parent or Child states.

 

AHHH, both you and I Jay, are Ok!

[Tradewinds 12]

It took me years to learn a simple lesson, and that is ....to the extent that we can THINK and ACT in a specific way..we can obtain a non-random outcome in our lives...by their actions, people in effect choose to be winners or losers....

 

People can also choose to be aware of the influences that affect how and why they act in a specific way. There is indeed, random outcomes, and non-random outcomes. Most people are totally at the mercy of randomness. But it goes even deeper than that. Most people don't even know that they don't know anything. We first need to become aware that we are constantly being influenced by randomness. If a person does not know or believe that they are being influenced by randomness, then it's unlikely that they will do anything about it.

 

The book, Mindful Trading, teaches that we are limited by this randomness, and that we can become mindful of that randomness, in order to achieve a "non-random" outcome.

 

This randomness takes the form of thoughts going through our head that we are really not aware of. Once we become aware of these random thoughts, and are able to objectively filter and process them, we can then work towards regulating this randomness.

 

You state that it took years for you to realize something. In "mindfullness", the person learns to be aware of, filter and test random thoughts in "real time" with some simple questions. This personal discipline helps us to discover things in a very short span of time.

[daVinciLite 10]

People can also choose to be aware of the influences that affect how and why they act in a specific way. There is indeed, random outcomes, and non-random outcomes. Most people are totally at the mercy of randomness. But it goes even deeper than that. Most people don't even know that they don't know anything. We first need to become aware that we are constantly being influenced by randomness. If a person does not know or believe that they are being influenced by randomness, then it's unlikely that they will do anything about it.

 

 

You may also enjoy "What If?: The Challenge of Self-Realization" by Eldon Taylor. Taylor has a lot of other books about the mind. This stuff is basic neurology with a psychological spin. I used a basic form of biofeedback 20 years ago to calm my nerves during basketball games. Rande Howell is on the right track. Just ordered the book.

 

DVL

[johnw 10]

Sorting out who you are, what makes you tick and detaching your ego sufficiently to allow your "Back Office" to kick into gear is essential to enjoying life to the fullest.

 

But in reference to Trading, do not overlook the need to get to the essence of what makes markets move, otherwise you will be out of control whilst you think you have control ... a nasty place to be.

 

Here is what seems to happen, when you read Posters stories here on TL.

 

A person hooks into a Trading Software program full of bells and whistles all

coupled through what they consider to be a high powered PC.

 

They bring with them an attitude from the manipulated world, a world in which they believed that they were successful.

 

Read a few books, talk to other lost souls on Forums and away they go.

 

The first thing that happens is they lose money and the second thing that happens is they lay blame on everyone and everything around them.

 

Now, peel back the illusions to reveal the reality of what happened...

 

They stepped onto an elevator thinking they are heading to the 43rd level Penthouse ...they ASSUMED they were at the ground floor, whereas they entered at level 39.

 

It is a long fall down, but thankfully it was only money and ego that suffered.

 

The key is to establish you are at the ground floor before you begin the journey up.

That will require honesty and hard work.

[Richie1977 10]

Constant self awareness is the key, if you are aware that you are bidding to low, or not hitting the set up when it occurs. If you say out loud you are doing this to yourself, you have the chance to correct. I did it on NFP on friday, I must have missed 4-5 reversal trades, I made myself aware, changed and then started to make money. This fear of loss, plagues most traders from my experience, I have friends in hedge funds that keep tin pots for all their, "should of, would of, could of trades...." for all those missed opportunities. The key is awareness....

[johnw 10]

Constant self awareness is the key, if you are aware that you are bidding to low, or not hitting the set up when it occurs. If you say out loud you are doing this to yourself, you have the chance to correct. I did it on NFP on friday, I must have missed 4-5 reversal trades, I made myself aware, changed and then started to make money. This fear of loss, plagues most traders from my experience, I have friends in hedge funds that keep tin pots for all their, "should of, would of, could of trades...." for all those missed opportunities. The key is awareness....

 

 

Excellent thoughts ...

 

But how do you know that you are self aware.

Your self awareness just might appear to be a self delusion to others.

[Tradewinds 12]

Everyone is prone to self criticism. This internal criticism can go mostly unnoticed by our conscious mind. Inner criticism limits our potential. It's important to be aware of and test our inner criticism. One characteristic of destructive criticism is that it makes global assessments with little or no evidence to support the bias. Something I learned from the book.

[steve46 12]

OK so I have a limited amount of time, and I want to bring my participation in this thread to a close

 

Seems to me folks decide to do this for a variety of reasons, with money the foremost motivator...thats clear...

Also clear, most folks approach this business thinking they can get their charts up, learn about the markets, find an indicator or a setup that works and voila they have a magic ATM machine on their dining room table....

The fact is, unless a person makes a conscious decision to think and act in an adult manner, they won't get to their goals...unless they learn to take responibility for themselves and their actions, they will aways be watching from a distance, looking for an explanation "why they can't get where they want to go"..

Everyone is entitled to read all the books they want...take all the seminars....pay people to tell you why you are doing what you do....but in the end it comes down to YOUR DECISION TO TAKE ADULT RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

 

Next week I intend to start working with a group of folks willing to make that decision and go for it...I intend to show these folks what it takes to get to their financial goals with trading....I expect to win some and lose some, but in the end I also expect to make a positive difference in their lives....

 

I hope you all reach your goals as well..

Seeya

[MightyMouse 12]

OK so I have a limited amount of time, and I want to bring my participation in this thread to a close

 

Seems to me folks decide to do this for a variety of reasons, with money the foremost motivator...thats clear...

Also clear, most folks approach this business thinking they can get their charts up, learn about the markets, find an indicator or a setup that works and voila they have a magic ATM machine on their dining room table....

The fact is, unless a person makes a conscious decision to think and act in an adult manner, they won't get to their goals...unless they learn to take responibility for themselves and their actions, they will aways be watching from a distance, looking for an explanation "why they can't get where they want to go"..

Everyone is entitled to read all the books they want...take all the seminars....pay people to tell you why you are doing what you do....but in the end it comes down to YOUR DECISION TO TAKE ADULT RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

 

Next week I intend to start working with a group of folks willing to make that decision and go for it...I intend to show these folks what it takes to get to their financial goals with trading....I expect to win some and lose some, but in the end I also expect to make a positive difference in their lives....

 

I hope you all reach your goals as well..

Seeya

 

Bravisimo!

 

Great advice from a guy who was read every book and used every single sort of moving average known to man. After all that, he decided to take responsibility for his own actions.

[Tradewinds 12]

The fact is, unless a person makes a conscious decision to think and act in an adult manner, they won't get to their goals...unless they learn to take responibility for themselves and their actions,

 

The book describes a calm, confident, impartial, and courageous state to trade from. This is the objective for the trader to achieve. One way to move towards this state, is to allow ourselves to take a look at the things that often get pushed to the back of our minds. This process takes effort and willingness. I would say that the effort and willingness to face these uncomfortable inner issues can only come from an adult, responsible action.