Trading Not to Lose: A Disguised Fear of Loss and the Future

[MightyMouse 12]

As most folks probably recognize, I take my sceneros out of clients I work with or have worked with. "Steve" is doing well now. Took a little work and soul searching. Fortunately he did not take your advice. We'll see about the future.

 

Rande Howell

 

The fact is that most people should take my advice even though it is against my best interest for them to take my advice.

 

Your "Steve" who you helped solve his fear problem went onto live happily ever after, making money in the market? It has a sort of fairy tale ending to it.

 

In your fairy tale, Steve is afraid to go into the woods because there is a big bad witch, but you gave him a sword and now he can combat the witch. What is Steve going to do now if he comes across an Ogre who has a bigger sword than he does? Is he gong to come back to you and get a machine gun to defeat the Ogre? And once he has a machine gun, and he comes across an American President who has influence over the US congress who will in an emergency session send 600 sorties to completely annihilate Steve and the habitat in which he lives, because the US feels that someone walking in the woods with a machine gun, trying to defeat American Ogre allies is also a potential threat to American interests and does not represent American values. Then what would be your advice?

 

If Steve had been able to realize that the witch was not real, he would never have taken a sword into the woods, or he could have simply stayed out of the woods. In either case he could be alive and possibly working for SIUYA.

[Rande Howell 10]

The gentleman's problem is a lack of experience, as well as a lack of skill...to put it bluntly he is incomptent and should not be at risk unless he is simply doing this as a hobby...

 

The idea that one should attribute their problem to "fear" is fine, if it leads to some resolution of the problem, but in this case it doesn't..because really it is just a vehicle that you (Rande) are using as part of your promotional process..

 

The fact is that the gentleman in your example requires some "handholding"....if a person with skills could guide him through this process, a few repetitions would quickly show him what his options are, and how to manage both the trade and his fear...But as you have pointed out, you are not a trader...so this is not a solution that you can provide.

 

Fear ladies and gentleman is a good thing and (sorry Rande) not something to try to conquer or fix...in fact it is a safety mechanism..that is there to try to protect you (in the world of trading) from loss. Rather than run from it or try to "treat it" or manage it, one should first understand the protection that it provides...

 

Once you know the benefit that your fearful response is providing you may have more respect for it...meaning simply that if you are fearful...you shouldn't trade...until you have fixed the problem that caused it...AND that problem is almost always lack of skills, lack of experience and lack of education about what it is that you are trying to do....in most cases it certainly does not require psychological intervention...

 

Sorry Rande but at someone has to say something about the emperor's lack of clothes.....and by the way sir or madam, if you every wanted to obtain some real world experience with regard to trading, I would be glad to try to assist you so that when next you comment, you have something of substance to provide your prospects.

 

Good luck everyone...

 

I love the hidden assumptions this reveals. In actuality, "Steve" is a former client of mine who has over 10 years experience with Drummond Geometry and was always (after learning curve) a great technical trader. His problem was a deeply ingrained family belief system about avoiding loss (for very good reasons). This was the adapted self that he brought into finance, which was effective in that domain. When he got to trading, this same set of beliefs kept him out of trading on the level he wanted to. He was able to support his family, but sought to take his trading to another level. That's why he worked with me. He could not "see" this pattern running in the background comtaminating how he interpreted possibility.

 

As he opened himself to the discipline, courage, patience, and impartiality that also lived within him, he disrupted the old mindset's hold over the thoughts in his mind. These other elements began showing up in his trading. And he has moved to a new level in his trading.

 

Fear is an emotional state that is good when your life is at risk. Otherwise it will comtaminate the impartial thinking required to trade well. Worry is different. Worry is about negative attribution of the future. Concern and vigilance are the emotional states that a trader needs to develop. Fear and worry will comtaminate your capacity for clear thinking.

 

You are not stuck with the kind of thinking that you bring to trading. You are not deterministic. Western medicine failed on this account. They discovered 85% of all illness is stress (fear based) related. Changing the mindset changes outcome. Fortunately many people learn how to change mindset rather than accepting limitation.

 

Rande Howell

[Rande Howell 10]

Originally Posted by SIUYA

I look at it this way..... if I was employing Steve I would do so as an analyst, and then employ someone who may not be very good at the analysis but has no fear about the markets.

Sometimes people are just not designed to do certain things very well. Now while it could be argued that all it takes is training/handholding/whatever..... often you cant make a monkey into a race horse and while the effort to do so may eventually work out, maybe that effort is better applied elsewhere.

 

I would also like to add, and its an often avoided topic, is that there are many traders who dont have fear, and when you combine that with the ignorance Steve46 mentions'....disaster.

I have seen more blowups because of this than with issues of fear of the market.

How do you deal with those people who dont have enough fear Rande?

 

Good observation and question. Fear and impulse live on different ends of a continuum. Impulse (how I define what you refer to) tends to be rooted in grandiosity, which is dangerous in trading, while fear tends to be rooted in self doubt. Impulse also can happen as a result of anger during a trade. That is, the trade goes the wrong way, and suddenly the trader is sweep away by an impulse for attack and revenge.

 

I, too, have found the dynamics very different. With impulse traders I train the trader to have a conditioned response to breathing and relaxation (relaxation response) as the emotional pressure builds up in the impulse, but before it triggers. I train to this for 3-4 weeks before getting into the mind stuff. The biology of the impulse has to be disrupted before going further. Otherwise the pattern keeps triggering and deeper training is useless. It's actually the same process I used when I was treating impulse disordered youth populations when I was in public mental health.

 

In the case of Steve, which by the way is his real name, he had a core of discipline that had been well developed in other domains of his life, but had never been transferred to trading. By using highly charged emotional memory from a different domain where he experienced both discipline and impartiality, he was able to generalize it to the domain of trading.

 

His relationship to uncertainty changed here. Rather than avoid uncertainty out of fear, he approached uncertainty from this newly developed discipline and impartiality applied to the domain of trading. He moved from being an analyst to be a player. He still had to face his fears located in his limbic system (no escape of that), but he faced them from discipline and impartiality (compassion also) rather than the fear of losing belief pattern learned in his youth. From here, he was able to reconstruct the belief that he traded from. And a new history emerged from here.

 

Rande Howell

[Tradewinds 12]

Concern and vigilance are the emotional states that a trader needs to develop.

Rande Howell

 

Thank you for pointing out these distinctions. Those subtle differences are important. I guess it's not so subtle a difference between fear and vigilance, as far as the emotional state goes. Are we talking about small matters of degree here, or a radically different viewpoint?

 

I read a book that made a distinction between vigilance and "hyper vigilance". Hyper vigilance being a chronic and destructive state of being, where the person never returns back to a normal state; always being "on edge" and looking for danger.

[MightyMouse 12]

I love the hidden assumptions this reveals. In actuality, "Steve" is a former client of mine who has over 10 years experience with Drummond Geometry and was always (after learning curve) a great technical trader. His problem was a deeply ingrained family belief system about avoiding loss (for very good reasons). This was the adapted self that he brought into finance, which was effective in that domain. When he got to trading, this same set of beliefs kept him out of trading on the level he wanted to. He was able to support his family, but sought to take his trading to another level. That's why he worked with me. He could not "see" this pattern running in the background comtaminating how he interpreted possibility.

 

As he opened himself to the discipline, courage, patience, and impartiality that also lived within him, he disrupted the old mindset's hold over the thoughts in his mind. These other elements began showing up in his trading. And he has moved to a new level in his trading.

 

Fear is an emotional state that is good when your life is at risk. Otherwise it will comtaminate the impartial thinking required to trade well. Worry is different. Worry is about negative attribution of the future. Concern and vigilance are the emotional states that a trader needs to develop. Fear and worry will comtaminate your capacity for clear thinking.

 

You are not stuck with the kind of thinking that you bring to trading. You are not deterministic. Western medicine failed on this account. They discovered 85% of all illness is stress (fear based) related. Changing the mindset changes outcome. Fortunately many people learn how to change mindset rather than accepting limitation.

 

Rande Howell

 

Randy,

 

If you do not mind me calling you Randy, If Steve was like a deer in headlights when he was supposed to trade as you described in your original thread, he was losing money and not supporting his family. I understand the use of stories to sell concept in your business, but what you are describing is just not real. Like everyone else who can't get a grip on what is real in trading, he was likely making multiple mistakes and judgement errors because he was unable to properly deal with his emotions. We all stare at a chart and think, gee I knew it would turn at that point and wish you got in. You think you are brilliant when you do call the turn but ignore the majority of the times that you knew it was going to turn and it didn't.

 

If Steve comes back to you looking for a better weapon, tell Steve that that there are many other businesses that he can get involved with that he will be able to support his family.

 

And I love the naive assumption that someone who is good analyzing a chart or writing indicators can be good at trading. Priceless! In most cases, it is exactly the opposite.

[Tradewinds 12]

And I love the naive assumption that someone who is good analyzing a chart or writing indicators can be good at trading. Priceless! In most cases, it is exactly the opposite.

 

I don't doubt that this is true. I spend a lot of time programing and analyzing. That is my personality. I'm not the "Type A", outgoing personality. I have become technically proficient, but I can't say that I'm good at trading. Even though it's difficult to admit this, I'm just being truthful. It's critical to face and observe the thoughts and feelings that we experience, in order to deal with them. Many people have not found the courage to face those inner beliefs that control their lives.

 

I do NOT believe that I am forever locked into the mold that I've found myself in. There are plenty of people who would probably like to keep me locked into that mold, for whatever reason. That's an interesting subject; Why would anyone want to keep another person locked into a certain situation?

[Tradewinds 12]

The fact is that most people should take my advice even though it is against my best interest for them to take my advice.

 

So you are motivated by sympathy, concern, and goodwill towards fellow potential traders? I don't feel that when I read your posts. Something doesn't make any sense here. You seem bitter and angry.

[MightyMouse 12]

So you are motivated by sympathy, concern, and goodwill towards fellow potential traders? I don't feel that when I read your posts. Something doesn't make any sense here. You seem bitter and angry.

 

Sure, I will tell anyone here what I feel in my best moral judgement is the right thing for them I am not suggesting I know what is right for everyone. It is of course only my opinion, but in the market I will take every penny you decide to put in front of me if i can and I will do everything I can to prevent you from taking any of mine.

[steve46 12]

I love the hidden assumptions this reveals. In actuality, "Steve" is a former client of mine who has over 10 years experience with Drummond Geometry and was always (after learning curve) a great technical trader. His problem was a deeply ingrained family belief system about avoiding loss (for very good reasons). This was the adapted self that he brought into finance, which was effective in that domain. When he got to trading, this same set of beliefs kept him out of trading on the level he wanted to. He was able to support his family, but sought to take his trading to another level. That's why he worked with me. He could not "see" this pattern running in the background comtaminating how he interpreted possibility.

 

As he opened himself to the discipline, courage, patience, and impartiality that also lived within him, he disrupted the old mindset's hold over the thoughts in his mind. These other elements began showing up in his trading. And he has moved to a new level in his trading.

 

Fear is an emotional state that is good when your life is at risk. Otherwise it will comtaminate the impartial thinking required to trade well. Worry is different. Worry is about negative attribution of the future. Concern and vigilance are the emotional states that a trader needs to develop. Fear and worry will comtaminate your capacity for clear thinking.

 

You are not stuck with the kind of thinking that you bring to trading. You are not deterministic. Western medicine failed on this account. They discovered 85% of all illness is stress (fear based) related. Changing the mindset changes outcome. Fortunately many people learn how to change mindset rather than accepting limitation.

 

Rande Howell

 

I certainly do make assumptions Rande but they are not hidden...The first very open assumption I make is that you do not know what you are talking about....For instance, you indicate that you do not trade....so, how is it that you have the ability to classify the person in your example as a "great technical trader". The inconsistency doesn't lie with your example sir, it is with YOU...and the false claims of expertise that you offer in this arena...

 

Further the artificial distinction you make between fear and worry is simply a word game...and of no importance to those of us who actually put themselves at risk in the markets...that fact is...the emotion we experience is a warning "message" that we don't have enough experience or knowledge to deal with the situation....That message is clear to me...."warning.....(flashing lights and sirens)....warning.....possibility of loss.....step away from the computer......

 

Sorry Rande....not my intention to make fun of your example...but it seems to me that YOUR lack of background in trading is showing...so to speak..and I will go a step further to illustrate.

 

In markets like the S&P futures for instance, it is common to see participants monitoring the same or similar data to make decisions....one of the data points many professional monitor is Market Profile "value"...for this reason, we often see price move to test previous value, only to take off "early" as participants front run the value price (usually this happens at the previous value area high and low)...If the person in your example possessed enough experience and technical expertise (they don't)....they would know to expect that and (perhaps they would be able to read the tape thus telling them when this is occuring)....and get on board NEAR that value area instead of demanding a specific price.....The issue mentioned in your example happens for many reasons but this is ONE....

 

In contrast.....if we go to other markets...the bond market for example or exchange traded currencies...we have an entirely different environment.....one that you (Rande) are unfamiliar with and in those markets...this is less likely to happen....(for many reasons)... the gentleman in your example would actually be doing the right thing by demanding a specific price before taking action.....

 

THIS (among other things) is why your lack of experience trading betrays you Rande.....because you dont have the experience to know the difference..

 

Good luck

Edited April 2, 2011 by steve46

[Tradewinds 12]

. . . . in the market I will take every penny you decide to put in front of me if i can and I will do everything I can to prevent you from taking any of mine.

 

I'm thinking about how this outlook would affect my ability to trade. I suppose if I viewed the market to be full of people I didn't like, and it made me feel good that I was taking their money, then it might put me into a colder, more calculating state of mind. And that in turn would override the fear. But this viewpoint wouldn't fix the fear problem, it would just cover it up, and then I would need to maintain the state of mind that I'm mercilessly taking other people's money. That seems like it would take a lot of negative energy to maintain. I would need to be a black hole of dark matter to keep that state of mind going. I don't think that will work for me personally.

 

I'd rather view my trading as adding liquidity to the market, and being rewarded for providing a service. I'm just the "middle man" helping to bring buyers and sellers together. I kind of like that thought. I'll have to give that point of view a try.

[MightyMouse 12]

I'm thinking about how this outlook would affect my ability to trade. I suppose if I viewed the market to be full of people I didn't like, and it made me feel good that I was taking their money, then it might put me into a colder, more calculating state of mind. And that in turn would override the fear. But this viewpoint wouldn't fix the fear problem, it would just cover it up, and then I would need to maintain the state of mind that I'm mercilessly taking other people's money. That seems like it would take a lot of negative energy to maintain. I would need to be a black hole of dark matter to keep that state of mind going. I don't think that will work for me personally.

 

I'd rather view my trading as adding liquidity to the market, and being rewarded for providing a service. I'm just the "middle man" helping to bring buyers and sellers together. I kind of like that thought. I'll have to give that point of view a try.

 

You nor no one has to look at it this way. It it makes you feel better, then you can think of yourself as the middle man bringing buy and sell together. Curious though: How are you going to get rewarded? Or, who is going to reward you? Is there a tick fountain somewhere that everyone goes to to retrieve ticks that I do not know about? Is there a liquidity provider redemption center?

[jaysmith124 10]

There are gray areas where we can take control to view it as we see it. That best fits our value and belief system.

 

Some will see it with a negative world view, and others with a positive world view.

 

It does not matter what another view is. If what, and how, one chooses to see it works for them than that's OK.

 

Just remember that we weren't born to follow. It is up to each individual to test a new belief. (If on a path of change to find the optimum performance)

[Tradewinds 12]

If it makes you feel better, then you can think of yourself as the middle man bringing buy and sell together. Curious though: How are you going to get rewarded? Or, who is going to reward you? Is there a tick fountain somewhere that everyone goes to to retrieve ticks that I do not know about? Is there a liquidity provider redemption center?

 

You seem upset MM. For some reason, it seems to bother you that I want to view the market a certain way. You state that if it makes me feel better, that I can think this way, but then you imply that I'm in fantasy land trying to drink out of a magical tick fountain. So on one hand you are acting like you don't mind if I think this way, and then you seem very disturbed that I want to think this way. Are you intentionally just trying to "mess" with me for some reason?

 

Are you obsessed with the need to convince me of your way of thinking? Maybe you are overly sensitive, and are having difficulty with the whole issue of fear and trading. I'm just trying to understand the passion you seem to have.

[Tradewinds 12]

Questions for Developing Your Mindfulness:

(1) If you take a look at the symptoms of your trading, what do you discover?

 

(2) What is the consistent behavioral performance that keeps repeating itself?

 

For a long time, I have noticed behaviors that I repeat. The problem is, that I recognize the bad behavior to late, after I have already made the mistake. If I were mindful of these behaviors that sabotage my trading, I could consciously and intentionally counteract them.

 

Knowing that I have these behaviors is not enough. I need a way to "catch" these sabotaging thoughts and feelings in "real time" in order to override them.

 

Just the other day I was doing great. I had a few winning trades all in a row. Then I went into a grandiose way of thinking. I thought about how good it would be if I went an entire trading day with 100% wins. That was the beginning of my downfall. After this fantastical way of thinking, I became very averse to taking a loss, and avoided getting out of a trade that I needed to bail on. I started hoping that the trade would come back, so that my 100% wins wouldn't be broken.

 

After thinking about this problem, I decided on a way I can become mindful of my problem in real time, and deal with it. I have decided that the second I have a feeling of concern, or the thought, "Oh No! This trade isn't doing what I anticipated that it might do!" That is my trigger to immediately hit "FLATTEN" and get out of the trade. This will keep me from holding onto a loosing trade to long.

 

So I have associated the thought and feeling of the trade going wrong with the word, "FLAT". Every once in a while I I think of this situation while I'm not trading. I don't know why. Maybe I have made it a high priority, and so it comes to mind every once in a while. Hopefully, as I continuously reinforce the connection between these thoughts and feelings with the action to flatten my trade, it will become totally automatic.

[jaysmith124 10]

. Hopefully, as I continuously reinforce the connection between these thoughts and feelings with the action to flatten my trade, it will become totally automatic.

 

 

Yes, but don't hold yourself to reacting on this emotional trigger on cue. Continue with trades, and be aware of how the trades played out.

After a number of trades review them looking for a pattern with a high consistency of playing out in your favor.

Should I keep acting on cue? What are the results?

What if I had given a certain certain amount of room for fluctuation?

After an emotional cue that "this is it" is there a window for price fluctuation that I need to allow a before hitting my preconceived stop price?

Would it be best to wait and enter the trades closer to the stop price?

etc.

 

For myself, i would use the term (I will become) confident rather than (it will become) automatic. But, the point is that you will change belief by continuously reinforce the connection between these thoughts and feelings with the action, which then provides a desired result (matching the most accurate,and probable outcome) Where your your sub conscious, or implicit, belief matches your conscious belief. (It is the implicit habits and beliefs that control us)

Edited April 2, 2011 by jaysmith124

[SIUYA 11]

Just in from the back of the boat - beautiful day here in Sydney. I think I might fire someone on Monday! ....... I wonder if I can fire myself and claim a reduced tax payment on my retrenchment package

 

This is an interesting discussion - unlike many - and it does again go down the different strokes for different folks and there are many ways to skin a cat path

I am on the side of MM and Steve46 - you trade, you eat what you kill, you just do it. You work out what works for you and take responsibility. I get my therapy from my own analysis and talking to other traders.

However thats not to say I cannot see value in what Rande and tradewinds talk about....for SOME people......and I would dare say I would consider that for a lot of those types of people trading is a hard slog, and maybe they would be best not doing it. (my two cents)

 

Now here is another interesting thought (at least for me) to throw into the mix..... while the market will instantaneously and ultimately tell you if you are doing something right or wrong, how many people have you said down with Rande and said - "maybe this gig is not for you"....try something else", or in your opinion can everyone be saved/redeemed/become profitable? I mean we only have one life and for some people trading can ultimately be a complete waste of time/effort/money and emotionally draining.

[Tradewinds 12]

Let's say, hypothetically, that I decided to give up and abandon trading right this second. The things that I have learned about myself from trading, will stay with me for the rest of my life. The things that I have learned from Rande will be a part of me for the rest of my life. I don't see any downside to what I've learned from Rande by reading his posts, and reading his book. At least for me, there is no negative side to reading Rande's information. I can apply the knowledge and understanding I've gained to any aspect of my life that requires it.

 

If a person is very secure in their belief system, then they don't need to feel threatened or be upset if someone disagrees with them. In the past, when I have had discussions with people, and I found myself getting upset because I couldn't convince someone to believe what I believe, at some point, I asked myself, "Why am I so upset that they don't believe what I believe?" If I really do believe what I say I believe, then I will be 100% secure, and have no worry or concern about what anyone else says or believes.

 

On the surface, one argument against what Rande is teaching, seems to be a concern that it will keep incompetent traders trading until they completely destroy themselves.

 

But the crazy irony here, is that the people who seem to be the most aggravated by what Rande is teaching, have adopted a belief system of "dog eat dog", "eat what you kill", "I'm going to take every penny you have" mentality. And it seems to me, like you guys feel that your belief system is being threatened. When somebody's belief system is threatened, it threatens the very foundation that their whole world is built on. That's what I think is going on here.

[Tradewinds 12]

For myself, i would use the term (I will become) confident rather than (it will become) automatic.

 

I think I understand what you are saying. When I say, "It will become automatic", it becomes something external, something outside of myself. If my confidence builds, then it is something at the core of my being, not dependent upon anything outside of myself.

[jaysmith124 10]

I think I understand what you are saying. When I say, "It will become automatic", it becomes something external, something outside of myself. If my confidence builds, then it is something at the core of my being, not dependent upon anything outside of myself.

 

Yes, I am acknowledging, and giving myself credit, for being in control. Making good choices.

[SIUYA 11]

.

But the crazy irony here, is that the people who seem to be the most aggravated by what Rande is teaching, have adopted a belief system of "dog eat dog", "eat what you kill", "I'm going to take every penny you have" mentality. And it seems to me, like you guys feel that your belief system is being threatened. When somebody's belief system is threatened, it threatens the very foundation that their whole world is built on. That's what I think is going on here.

 

I speak for myself here, and am not threatened by anything. The point is that there are many ways to do things, and different things work for different people, but when it comes down to trading........ the touchy feely i have come to know more about myself and feel like a better human being stuff is bollocks. :2c:

The market does not care.

I actually know what works for me and my personality in the markets and I have adopted my strategies for that, and guess what it works! I dont need to make my self change, I cant make the market change, but i can adapt to how I approach the market.

 

What Rande may be offering is something that can help some people, but I think the trap is a lot of people mainly struggling traders will then then think he is just another quick fix that will improve their trading. I think Rande may be of help to some people but like many cults (I use the term loosely Rande ) the devotees become blinkered.

Your response is starting to border on that as it has delved into the religious mumbo jumbo of threatened belief systems, when its not.

Its a discussion, with questions answers and debates.

 

Now if my belief system was one such as you mention....which it largely is, then why would I be aggravated by Randes approach. I would say, come on fresh meat and take their money..... but I dont.

I think there just needs to be two sides in every debate.

[$5DAW 10]

He put in his order at a

rock bottom price

figuring that he was managing any potential for loss.

 

There's your problem :haha:, sounds absolutely normal for a

Bean Counter!

How many times have I spent hours sifting through my bank statement, trying to find that missing penny to balance my checkbook, a few. It just doesn't work that way in the market. If Steve needs to be filled, "at a

rock bottom price,"

to "managing any potential for loss," then he has a flawed Trading Plan, get real fellas. But maybe not. Steve's plan is making money, but not

enough

money

to sustain a certain desired lifestyle, ("make his

financial dreams

come true"). Something has to change, the trader,

or

the plan? I don't think you can separate the two. If the trader decides to widen his entry level of his plan, even by a few ticks, then he has to change to accept the added risk. If he can't

totally, completely, comfortably accept the added risk,

then he must remain content with the returns his plan/system generate. The trader

is

the plan, there's no other way.

 

So the title of this thread could have been, How do we, totally, completely, comfortably accept the added risk to increase our profits. As Steve stated, "if he had acted within the

price range

that his trading plan had called for, he would have been able to profitably enter the trade with

plenty of room to spare

," this is, IMO the key. This tells me he has tested, tested and tested his plan and has hard, solid facts to prove to himself, (and anyone else) he can expect X% of winning trades from his set-ups

if

he takes the signals,

"within the price range

that his trading plan had called for."

 

Trading is a numbers game, and we can test, test and test till the cows come home, and

if we do

we may find the answers we seek. Within Steve's price range for entries is a hidden percentage. Let's say he has a 10 tick range for entries. The percentage of entries

filled

in the uppermost 50% of that range may be 50/70% as apposed to 10/20% of entries

filled

in the lowest 25% of the 10 tick range. All things being equal (sticking to the plan) the

risk of

losing

remains the same

(assuming a long position as outlined in the opening statement).

 

So I'll argue that Steve is, without a doubt,

totally, completely, comfortably with the risk

of his plan. Knowing a few bean counters and many more traders, I would suggest opening the issue of greed. Greed lurks on

both ends

of any price bar.

[johnw 10]

As always, these touchy feely threads are fascinating and this one with "fear" at it's roots is no exception.

 

I have read the whole thread this Sunday morning as we wait for the Tennis Men's final at lunchtime.

 

The thing that jumps out at me in this thread is just how many people write about "fear" as a static event in their lives .. "I was fearful and now I am not"

 

Please take note, that I intentionally wrote "write about fear" rather than "experienced fear" and I will leave it to you to figure this out.

 

"Fear" to me is a dynamic state, like "love"

If I want the permanence of enjoying one, then I must learn to accommodate the other.

 

Since I spent so much of my time sailing, I choose to see the Markets as an Ocean and as such I choose to regard fear as a bow wave.

 

All yachts make bow waves to one extent or another and their effect upon the performance is proportional to the size of the wave. It is not proportional to speed even if it appears logical to you to hold this thought.

It is a dynamic state that has several inputs.

 

Now I look at my fears and I gently sweep them from existing in front of me [bow wave] to traveling with me on either side, but traveling at a slower speed.

In effect I am using my fears to speed me up.... they are working for me, not against me.

Yes, you must first confront fear in order to harness it.

 

When someone tells me that they have conquered their fear, I interpret this to mean they are not pushing ahead with their life ... they have given up and the sad thing is that they cannot/ will not accept this.

This must give cause to much frustration, which in turn leads to black and white thinking.... or perhaps it is the other way around.

 

In theory, trading ES at 20, 50 or 100 lots is the same as trading one lot ..in theory.

 

If anyone tells you this then I would imagine they are in one of two states.

 

... they do not know what they are talking about because they have never been there.

... they are reckless and they will take some mighty losses before they learn a valuable and very expensive and very avoidable lesson.

 

Enjoy the Tennis

Edited April 3, 2011 by johnw

[Tradewinds 12]

Your response is starting to border on that as it has delved into the religious mumbo jumbo of threatened belief systems, when its not.

Its a discussion, with questions answers and debates.

 

In trying to determine what is really going on. It's important to define the standards. Let's define what religious mumbo jumbo is, and then both agree to adhere to the same standard. Typically what happens, is that people make statements, and then are not willing to have the standard apply to themselves.

 

Talking about a belief system doesn't make it religion. Religion is about supernatural powers. E.g. God. Religion is a subcategory of a belief system.

 

I'm not talking about a supernatural belief system. So it's not religion. If you are talking about what I put my faith in, then you could correctly state that I'm putting my faith into what Rande is teaching, and in that sense, it has similarities to religion. But you put faith into your perspective. And it seems that you are just as passionate about your perspective. It seems like you are saying that it's okay for you to have a perspective that you put faith into, and are passionate about, but if I do the same thing, that I'm a cult following person spewing religious mumbo jumbo, but you aren't.

 

It seems like you feel the need to resort to petty insults. This is the perfect example of how the emotional part of the brain has dominance over the higher thinking part of the brain. If you felt secure and safe, the dominant emotional part of the brain would not have "kicked in". So when you resort to accusing me of being a cult follower spewing religious mumbo jumbo, you have no control over yourself. You are at the mercy of the emotional part of your brain.

 

This is the exact situation that needs to be avoided in trading. The higher thinking mind can be highjacked by the 'flight or fight' response of the brain. In this case, you have the urge to attack. So you are letting the little "pea brain" part of your mind control you.

[steve46 12]

Tradewinds you don't seem to get it...If you benefit from applying Jungian principles to your trading or your life, then go do that....and God Bless you....problem solved

 

For me, this forum is part of a "screening process"...evaluating this thread and the author (Rande) I noticed that his example and his advice, would actually be counterproductive for some traders (as mentioned in my previous post)...This and other similar posts suggests to me that Rande is either incompetent or ignorant....I have learned that to succeed I need to have the best possible advice and tools...so unfortunately I have to cross the gentleman's name off my list....

 

Good luck in the markets everyone.

[johnw 10]

 

Good luck in the markets everyone.

 

Why Good Luck.

 

I thought you said it was all about preparation and knowledge.

 

Now you have confused me and you are normally so easy to understand.

Edited April 3, 2011 by johnw