How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/system

[laguna 10]

Re: How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/system

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hi, Laguna: I'm not sure I agree with you. I think that discipline and patience can be taught. Little kids aren't disciplined or patient but they learn (at least some of them do). Even adults can learn discipline and patience - look at what happens in the armed forces. As for most adults, if they have a good enough motivator, they can learn just about anything if they are given the right information.

 

As to loving trading, I think that people love different things about the experience of trading. I started out loving the "puzzle" aspect of trading. Some love the challenge, some love that they are in control of their time and effort, etc. If traders become successful, I think they love the rewards of trading. So, if you can teach trading successfully, maybe, in the end, you are teaching love of trading.

 

Well, if you know Schoool Of Patience And Discipline: let me know. Only professional trading courses devote time to such. Psychology is the biggest aspect of hiring in serious trading firm, not boiler rooms. There is a reason why 95% fail: most come for the love of money, not for the love of the game, while battling their own demons, but refusing to accept responsibility for failures in life.

It is not a graduate school, that most can afford. Will be lovely if there was one, but it will be a pricey and lengthy process with exclusive acceptance only after selective screening.

Sadly, I know traders who have been in the industry for 10+ years, barely making a living, knowing quite well" The Biggest Enemy Is Me", but wasting time working with indicators/algorithms vs. working on themselves.

[laguna 10]

Re: How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/system

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hi, Laguna: I'm not sure I agree with you. I think that discipline and patience can be taught. Little kids aren't disciplined or patient but they learn (at least some of them do). Even adults can learn discipline and patience - look at what happens in the armed forces. As for most adults, if they have a good enough motivator, they can learn just about anything if they are given the right information.

 

As to loving trading, I think that people love different things about the experience of trading. I started out loving the "puzzle" aspect of trading. Some love the challenge, some love that they are in control of their time and effort, etc. If traders become successful, I think they love the rewards of trading. So, if you can teach trading successfully, maybe, in the end, you are teaching love of trading.

[laguna 10]

Well, if you know Schoool Of Patience And Discipline: let me know. Only professional trading courses devote time to such. Psychology is the biggest aspect of hiring in serious trading firm, not boiler rooms. There is a reason why 95% fail: most come for the love of money, not for the love of the game, while battling their own demons, but refusing to accept responsibility for failures in life.

It is not a graduate school, that most can afford. Will be lovely if there was one, but it will be a pricey and lengthy process with exclusive acceptance only after selective screening.

Sadly, I know traders who have been in the industry for 10+ years, barely making a living, knowing quite well" The Biggest Enemy Is Me", but wasting time working with indicators/algorithms vs. working on themselves.

[Tradewinds 12]

Best thing you can do is ask the programmer/website guy straight up why he sells it. If they try to claim to help the world, blah blah blah, stay away. But if you get an honest answer....maybe it is worth a shot?

 

I have a part of myself that wants to save the world. And I think that many people genuinely want to help others. But that whole issue gets very convoluted and messy. If I sold a good system just because am full of love and goodwill for the planet, it might get into the wrong hands, and be used by evil people. So that wouldn't work very well. If I did come up with some great trading system, I'd be better off just programing a bot to trade it, and hire people to monitor it.

 

If I came up with a mediocre system with slightly better than normal returns, then it would make sense to sell it, take people's money from selling it, and hope that it turned into a "self-fulfilling prophesy".

[TheNegotiator 13]

lots of finance/mathematical related degrees (unless you are looking for a programmer) big picture people (they seem to forget that its often the little details that make all the difference in trading, these guys often think they dont need to cut losses)/QUOTE]

 

Hmm. I'm not sure I'd totally agree with you here. I think that it is true that many people drawn to taking fin/math related degrees tend to lack certain qualities essential for trading. However, I don't believe that this is a mutually exclusive occurrence. There are some excellent traders from these backgrounds although I'd definitely be looking for these types of people to also demonstrate a high level of social ability.

[xkr1962 10]

two points....

 

1) at a guess most people here definitely dont have silver spoons.....I once did but mummy ran away with the milkman, but after your rant I am not sure I would PM you for help

 

2)....I have employed some people, very talented people in fact.....none of them made good traders, and I went through a thoughtful trading orientated vetting process.

I dont think you can tell who is going to be any good until they are sitting and trading. period.

 

It seems we may be comparing apples to oranges here with regards choosing people who we teach to trade.

 

From your recent posts it seems you are talking about recruiting people for institutional trading whereas I am talking more about the retail traders. My apologies if I missed something here.

 

The sort of people I have helped in the past are traders I have met from trading chatrooms and liverooms for whatever reason. Most were there to improve their game (me included) and almost all have a very good understanding of what is required to make it as a home trader.

 

The last live room I attended was over 18 months ago and run by a very experienced fundi trader and at the time I was still gathering knowledge and experience of every different style of trading that I could. You do meet traders of all levels in these places and many are prepared to help each other (myself included)

 

People soon realise who is trading at what level and things / associations progress naturally.

 

I am now a 110% technical trader I just don't need the complications of fundis whatsover. I try to point my students in that direction but always tell them to learn about every method of trading there is for themselves.

 

Personally I get the measure of potential students very quickly, one guy recently for example asked for help, so I spent a good few live chats and chart sharing showing him support and resistance and trend analysis and I gave him info on a few written articles and websites that would help him, all he ever kept asking me was, had I seen this book or that method. Last time he did that I politely told him my views and asked him to come back in a few years if he still needed help.

 

Regarding psychology I have learned that belief in your trading system / methods, making a plan and trading the plan helps enormously, forget that and the market will make you pay as a reminder.

Edited April 5, 2011 by xkr1962
spelling

[SIUYA 11]

lots of finance/mathematical related degrees (unless you are looking for a programmer) big picture people (they seem to forget that its often the little details that make all the difference in trading, these guys often think they dont need to cut losses)/QUOTE]

 

Hmm. I'm not sure I'd totally agree with you here. I think that it is true that many people drawn to taking fin/math related degrees tend to lack certain qualities essential for trading. However, I don't believe that this is a mutually exclusive occurrence. There are some excellent traders from these backgrounds although I'd definitely be looking for these types of people to also demonstrate a high level of social ability.

 

I am not saying they are mutually exclusive at all. Just that in my experience having a lot of degrees is not a good measure of trading prowess and that often the finance mathematical guys want everything to be perfect. At a few interviews I was shown models they had done disproving things etc etc; when asked what relevance this was to making money in the real world and how it related to trading the answers were more about protecting and defending their idea/model rather than answering the question.

One guy came back with the perfect answer - "Probably none, as I dont have experience in the real world trading and this is all theoretical"

[SIUYA 11]

It seems we may be comparing apples to oranges here with regards choosing people who we teach to trade.

 

From your recent posts it seems you are talking about recruiting people for institutional trading whereas I am talking more about the retail traders. My apologies if I missed something here.

 

 

true - there are differences. One where you are employing people is quite a different proposition to just teaching someone as a mentor. If they are paying you in some way then its a completely different proposition again.

While there are different variations in mindset between institutional trading and retail day trading, regards size, I actually think that the basic skills are the same.

My experience comes from employing people to work as market makers, and later as a few traders who would help me expand my trading as I was busy at the time.....not institutional but definitely not just day trading. Most of the feedback I have received as mentioned was from friends who have hired and fired many more people, and the years I have seen people come and go through various trading rooms. Plus I now sit with 14 other people in a room all who are very experienced traders - we more do it for the company now.....and have a policy on no a...holes allowed in the door, which keeps it very social.

[tjnoon 10]

Very provocative thread. Like WorldTrader and Shakespeare, I too host a live trade room, develop trade systems and have taught many people how to trade. I can say a lot on the subject having put in a lot of market time over the three years that I have called live trades (and of course, way more than that trading since the early 90's). The main point that I would like to add though is that I feel a huge responsibility for every trade I call. I know that my clients are hanging on my every word. Like anyone else, I do not know the future nor the outcome of any trade. The fact is, no one does. If it were so easy, it would not be legal because we'd all be printing money.

 

What I have learned (and I had to learn it quick when I first started) is that I have to have a method I can rely on, and then, trade it as intended. Price action, in my opinion, is infinitely challenging. From my point of view, all I can do is put the odds in my favor on every trade and then utilize smart money management techniques. I spent a lot of time doing the necessary work to take 'ownership' of the method I use. I need to be able to believe in it enough to have the confidence to trade it as intended. Getting to that level was hard work. The method I rely on would not work for any other random person who did not do the same work. They could see the results but would run for the exit at the first sign of trouble. Not doing the necessary 'taking ownership' work means you can't know if you are just going through a typical one step back before you launch yourself on the next two steps forward and new equity high. You'd head for the exit right when the winners were about to pile in. You wouldn't even know that you had a great system.

 

Since I did that work, I just need to lean on my system and good things end up happening. And as to the point of this thread, How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/System, and I believe someone said this earlier, you need to make sure the student/buyer is trading your system/course as intended and that's a tall order to require. They too would need to do the necessary work to actually take ownership of the system so that they had the confidence to take the next trade according to the rules. That's not something anyone can just talk themselves into. Not sure how you'd charge for that but you need to factor that into the equation. (The trading group considering how they would run a trade room offering a mentor has some interesting ideas.)

 

ps: To answer a couple of the other questions/statements found throughout this thread I offer the following:

 

1) I have learned a lot by hosting a live room and have become a much better trader as a result, responsibility for my trade decisions being one biggie but not the only biggie..

 

2) A reason for offering an effective trade system to the general public vs. keeping it secret is simple. It is good business. Income diversification should be an obvious benefit. I too would insist it was a good one and not some pie in the sky 'sell me the dream not the substance' system. Integrity comes back around as does the alternative.

 

3) Not all bad traders turn to teaching (some are brokers.. lol..) and not all good traders shy away from teaching. Again, it can be a good business, amongst other things. But also, there's always something to learn, even from the beginner. Especially from the beginner, actually. No bad habits to unlearn and a fresh naive perspective can lead to a fresh new idea. It did for me -- more than once.

 

Thanks for the great thread. Mighty Mouse was my childhood hero growing up, by the way. "Here I Come to Save the Dayyyy...."

[MightyMouse 12]

Very provocative thread. Like WorldTrader and Shakespeare, I too host a live trade room, develop trade systems and have taught many people how to trade. I can say a lot on the subject having put in a lot of market time over the three years that I have called live trades (and of course, way more than that trading since the early 90's). The main point that I would like to add though is that I feel a huge responsibility for every trade I call. I know that my clients are hanging on my every word. Like anyone else, I do not know the future nor the outcome of any trade. The fact is, no one does. If it were so easy, it would not be legal because we'd all be printing money.

 

What I have learned (and I had to learn it quick when I first started) is that I have to have a method I can rely on, and then, trade it as intended. Price action, in my opinion, is infinitely challenging. From my point of view, all I can do is put the odds in my favor on every trade and then utilize smart money management techniques. I spent a lot of time doing the necessary work to take 'ownership' of the method I use. I need to be able to believe in it enough to have the confidence to trade it as intended. Getting to that level was hard work. The method I rely on would not work for any other random person who did not do the same work. They could see the results but would run for the exit at the first sign of trouble. Not doing the necessary 'taking ownership' work means you can't know if you are just going through a typical one step back before you launch yourself on the next two steps forward and new equity high. You'd head for the exit right when the winners were about to pile in. You wouldn't even know that you had a great system.

 

Since I did that work, I just need to lean on my system and good things end up happening. And as to the point of this thread, How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/System, and I believe someone said this earlier, you need to make sure the student/buyer is trading your system/course as intended and that's a tall order to require. They too would need to do the necessary work to actually take ownership of the system so that they had the confidence to take the next trade according to the rules. That's not something anyone can just talk themselves into. Not sure how you'd charge for that but you need to factor that into the equation. (The trading group considering how they would run a trade room offering a mentor has some interesting ideas.)

 

ps: To answer a couple of the other questions/statements found throughout this thread I offer the following:

 

1) I have learned a lot by hosting a live room and have become a much better trader as a result, responsibility for my trade decisions being one biggie but not the only biggie..

 

2) A reason for offering an effective trade system to the general public vs. keeping it secret is simple. It is good business. Income diversification should be an obvious benefit. I too would insist it was a good one and not some pie in the sky 'sell me the dream not the substance' system. Integrity comes back around as does the alternative.

 

3) Not all bad traders turn to teaching (some are brokers.. lol..) and not all good traders shy away from teaching. Again, it can be a good business, amongst other things. But also, there's always something to learn, even from the beginner. Especially from the beginner, actually. No bad habits to unlearn and a fresh naive perspective can lead to a fresh new idea. It did for me -- more than once.

 

Thanks for the great thread. Mighty Mouse was my childhood hero growing up, by the way. "Here I Come to Save the Dayyyy...."

 

If you liked Mighty Mouse, you probably liked Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse too. Great cartoons.

 

I think a lot of guys who have rooms learn that day trading is a grind and hard to make a lot of money if you do not have enough capital. In fact, it's hard to make a lot of money if you do have enough capital. They also love the market so much that they cannot bare to leave it. So, rather than switch careers and un-wire themselves from the market, they sell trade calls, room subscriptions, courses, etc. to earn income because everyone needs income. I do not think there is a thing wrong with someone with experience charging a fee to someone with no or less experience to learn.

 

The problem, as I perceive it, of a lot of these rooms and services, is the lack of honesty. Each seems to be afraid of sharing the true results of his trades, and engages in lies that many detect, but many also deny because they want to believe.

 

The most important lesson a new trader can learn and experienced traders also struggle with is how to lose and the need to lose. If you run a room and you create the illusion that you always win, then you are doing a great disservice to new traders.

 

MM

[tjnoon 10]

I agree with some of your comments MM. Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse were great cartoons.

 

I can't speak on a lot of guys who have rooms but I do believe that trading can be a grind if you let it become one. I run a very tight room, typically trading for about 2 hours and that's it. The tradeplans I use are also very tight and clearly defined. I focus mostly on futures since it gives us a chance to hit our goals on most sessions, often very quickly. We do follow some fx charts too, for those who are interested. The grind factor can and should be mitigated and it is something I remain mindful of. You can't always avoid it. Sometimes you got to slug it out. Other times, like today in Crude Oil Futures, we hit our goals quick and to the point. We were done within 51 minutes.

 

Making money is never easy but if the tradeplans work, it becomes a matter of money management, patience and disciplined professionalism. God save the poor souls who find themselves emotionally attached to the outcome of any trade.

 

No sugar coating allowed. It is what it is. You have to be able to take the good, the bad and the ugly and put it into the bigger context of your overall business of trading. I'm in the middle of my traderoom right now waiting to hit one more trade in the Russell eMini. It's a slow yawner of a session. We just hit a winner. We've had an earlier winner, a couple losses and a breakeven trade. One more winner will give us the positive result we are looking for and a nice end to a white knuckled week of trading. If we do pick up one more winner before our stop time, we would have strung together 5 winning sessions in a row and a breakout to new equity highs. But it has not been an easy road these past few months, that's for sure. Just got triggered into what could be our final trade. I'll post a follow up with some charts to illustrate what we did this morning.

[tjnoon 10]

Ok, well, I just finished my session today and final session of the week, and thought I would just add to this thread with a real life example of trades being called in a real trade room service. It was a rather slow market but patience and discipline, sticking with our daily tradeplan, won the day for us. I have posted two charts. Our Russell eMini trades and our Crude Oil Futures trades.

 

Let me set it up by explaining that each trade is designed to be a two position approach. The first position exits at a predetermined fixed target and the 2nd position stays on with a trailing stop technique. I apologize that I can't show the charts exactly as I would in the traderoom. I'm just not at liberty to share everything in a public forum, unfortunately.

 

I numbered the Russell (TF) trades, 1 - 6. It took 6 trades to hit our goals today. The first trade was a new setup that I've added to the tradeplan recently. It has performed very well but today, as the first trade of the day, it was an 11 tick loser for a -2.2 net. Trade number two was a reversal short trade and our tight trade management technique stopped us out at Break Even. The 3rd trade was the same setup as the first losing trade, allowing us to get back on board the short and it was a winner, going to the middle target of 848.6. The Trailer only picked up 4 ticks.

 

The 4th trade was actually an add on position that got caught up in some noise and had to stop out for a 7 tick loss for a -1.4 net loss on the two positions. The 5th trade got us short again, allowing us to reenter the downtrend. It hit it's full target but we did make a small 3 tick adjustment on the entry, to make the price break the support level so we only got +1.6 on the fixed position. The trailing position got even less, stopping out with only a 1 point gain. Still though, we picked up +2.6 on that one. Finally, we reentered short again on trade number 6. We incorporated a nuanced rule which had us going for the 3rd target this time, picking up +1.4. Again, the trailer couldn't deliver the home run and we exited that one with only +.9. We gained +2.8 points on the session, excluding trade costs. That's what the market wanted to give us today, based on our consistent tradeplan. We ended with 5 winning sessions in a row and a breakout to all time profit levels, over 520 Russell points with this strategy so far.

 

The 2nd chart is much easier to explain. Two Crude Oil trades. The chart tells the story so I'll let whoever is interested take a close look at it.

 

I just thought since this thread asks about charging for trading courses and systems, it might be helpful to actually see a real traderoom, using a course and system that has been offered to the public for real. Perhaps it helps put the question into a more realistic context and gets one closer to thinking about a fair value for such a service.

 

Real trades from a real course from a real trade system called live today in a real trade room. Winners, losers.. It is what it is. Not all sessions end positive. CL was a tough trade this week but ended on a positive note today. Had to 'grind it out.' What is it worth? dunno.. But now it's part of the conversation..

[BOUCHE 10]

I for one, tend to agree with those who say "it cant be read or bought". As a newbie trader (less than a year) I can honestly say that my key learnings to date have all come via experience. The books,the online "mentors" and blogs tought me some basic principles, but there is no greater teacher than on the job experience. I fully believe in the theory that if someone truly had a "secret" formula or "proven consistant" strategy, they would use said methods to enrich themselves. It is simply human nature. I am also in the Real Estate game and it is amazing to me that since the market crash, how many self made Real Estate millionaire gurus are now pitching their "no fail systems"