How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/system

[Tradewinds 12]

There is no first, second third place in trading.....there is profit and loss.

 

Yes, so true. I don't need to be in first place, or even in 50th place. As long as I'm making more money than I could in the working world, then I'm doing just fine. That is an attitude that I need to work on.

[SIUYA 11]

Yes, so true. I don't need to be in first place, or even in 50th place. As long as I'm making more money than I could in the working world, then I'm doing just fine. That is an attitude that I need to work on.

 

One of the things a lot of new traders miss, is that often they are underfunded and would be better off working, and giving their money to those that trade for a living..... assuming you get someone not in the 95% of unprofitable traders.

Often they dont do the very straightforward maths and work out that to make more trading than working they either need to return 100s % or take excessive risks to get a satisfactory absolute return on their trades.

not likely to end in a happy story.....which is probably why a lot end up selling systems.

[xkr1962 10]

If I were going to sell a trading system, or have someone pay me for a trading course, I would make them a guarantee. I would guarantee that they will make money in simulated trading within a certain time period, or I will give them 110% of their money back. That is the way I would do business. And I wouldn't charge them much up front. If I could teach someone to make money trading, then they would have plenty of money to pay me later. If I can't teach someone to make money trading, then I shouldn't be getting anything.

 

I agree with a few others here, give 20 people the same method and they will all get differing results.

 

I am not sure what motivates people to operate huge live trading room environments it just seems to negate the reasons I got into trading in the first place, the freedom to work anywhere you want anytime you want.

 

Teaching others to trade your methods can be quite difficult. I have taught quite a few people to trade now, I really enjoy doing it and I am amazed how it helps improve my own trading, my own mentor noticed this too.

 

Over the years I have developed my methods to be as mechanical, unambiguous and therefore as teachable as possible, naked charts make life easier as well. I realised a solid set of rules goes a long way to taking care of the psycholgical aspects of fear and greed too.

 

Now I coach a few people at a time via skype or whatever, it suits me perfectly. They pay a one off fee and the only guarantee they get is that my system works can be proved to have worked on data going back 30 years. They can adapt it to any timeframe they wish and virtually any heavily traded currency or index they choose.

 

 

Hopefully a good understanding of pure price action and how the markets work will enable us to adapt quickly should anything change in the future as well.

[MightyMouse 12]

One of the things a lot of new traders miss, is that often they are underfunded and would be better off working, and giving their money to those that trade for a living..... assuming you get someone not in the 95% of unprofitable traders.

Often they dont do the very straightforward maths and work out that to make more trading than working they either need to return 100s % or take excessive risks to get a satisfactory absolute return on their trades.

not likely to end in a happy story.....which is probably why a lot end up selling systems.

 

The 95% number has no basis. I think that it's a number put out by brokerage houses to be on the safe side. They probably tested stats from 70% to 99% and realized that they would open as many accounts if they said 95% as they would if they said 70%, but the number of accounts opened would taper off if they went above 95%. So, now if someone loses and complains they can say that you were warned that 95% lose money.

 

In agreement with you, I think the #1 reason for failure is that traders are under capitalized. So, they may be making money (not failing) and realize that the return is just not enough and because of financial obligations decide to do other things, or they may be trading a decent system but with too much risk and the draw down swallows their account and they simply have no other funds to add to the account and they stop trading. In a sense, the later group was unlucky.

 

Also, a lot of traders are trying to trade a system that they simply cannot win. It is amazing. As an example, scalping is a dead art for the small trader. As a pit trader, you could, or still may, be able to make money if you are skilled enough. In the pit, it is possible to buy at the bid and sell at the ask or even to buy at the bid and sell at the bid if you have to. This gave the scalper a theoretical advantage and yes, you could make money a tick at a time. This is not as possible in the electronic markets. In most cases you will end up paying the spread to exit. So, on a tightly traded contract, say ES, and risking a tick to make a tick, the market has to go up two ticks to make a tick and down only 1 tick to lose a tick. A one tick spread and commissions guarantees that you lose in the long run if you are trying to take 1 tick and requires you to have a system where you are correct 80% of the time to make 50 cents per contract traded if you try to take 2 ticks.

 

So with all the different mind sets that enter the market it is very difficult to determine what the true long term success or failure rate is. A good idea would be for someone to conduct some sort of trading exit poll.

[MightyMouse 12]

I agree with a few others here, give 20 people the same method and they will all get differing results.

 

I am not sure what motivates people to operate huge live trading room environments it just seems to negate the reasons I got into trading in the first place, the freedom to work anywhere you want anytime you want.

 

Teaching others to trade your methods can be quite difficult. I have taught quite a few people to trade now, I really enjoy doing it and I am amazed how it helps improve my own trading, my own mentor noticed this too.

 

Over the years I have developed my methods to be as mechanical, unambiguous and therefore as teachable as possible, naked charts make life easier as well. I realised a solid set of rules goes a long way to taking care of the psycholgical aspects of fear and greed too.

 

Now I coach a few people at a time via skype or whatever, it suits me perfectly. They pay a one off fee and the only guarantee they get is that my system works can be proved to have worked on data going back 30 years. They can adapt it to any timeframe they wish and virtually any heavily traded currency or index they choose.

 

 

Hopefully a good understanding of pure price action and how the markets work will enable us to adapt quickly should anything change in the future as well.

 

I saw this movie. Didn't Harrison Ford star in it? Yeah, that was it. The special effects were great for the period. Maybe you should update your special effects too.

 

At this stage in my life my needs are slightly different than most. If I signed up for your service, would I be able to exchange the profits for eternal salvation? That would appeal to me. Please p.m. me if that is possible.

[laguna 10]

Trading Is All About Discipline and Patience: It Cant Be Taught. It Cant Be Read In The Book. It Cant Be Bought.

 

I had made an effort to teach trading, and it was the worst headache ever. If I will ever do so in the future: it will be a very selective process. There is a reason, why it is diffcult to get in to Harvard. Accepting a bunch of clueless and naive into trading is a receipe for disaster, but is surely a great scam, which are plenty. Good trader does not need a headache of dealing with clueless: there is much more money made in trading, than teaching how to trade. Most so called Teachers on the net never made money trading, therefore they have to teach...sadly most are teaching only how to lose money.

 

If person is able to do anything that requires great dedication, such as: run marathon, quit smoking, stop drinking, become a yogi, practice meditation: there is hope. Just like all above: trading is doing the same thing each and every day : just like when you start yoga: you cant touch your toes, then one day bingo: You are a Pretzel..So Is Trading..

 

Ask yourself where do you fit in? Being hones may save you a whole a lot of money.

 

The way you do one thing in life is the way you do everything.

Life Is A Habit and So Is Trading: making it healthy or unhealthy is purely your choice.

Noone taught me how to trade: after being scammed many times over: I taught myself..just like all above.

Edited April 3, 2011 by laguna

[xkr1962 10]

I saw this movie. Didn't Harrison Ford star in it? Yeah, that was it. The special effects were great for the period. Maybe you should update your special effects too.

 

At this stage in my life my needs are slightly different than most. If I signed up for your service, would I be able to exchange the profits for eternal salvation? That would appeal to me. Please p.m. me if that is possible.

 

Haha thanks,

 

I can see from reading some of you other posts you are a really clever and funny guy.

 

Great work.

[xkr1962 10]

I saw this movie. Didn't Harrison Ford star in it? Yeah, that was it. The special effects were great for the period. Maybe you should update your special effects too.

 

At this stage in my life my needs are slightly different than most. If I signed up for your service, would I be able to exchange the profits for eternal salvation? That would appeal to me. Please p.m. me if that is possible.

 

You really upset me with this post, you know absolutely nothing about me yet you respond in a rude and ignorant way.

 

That sort of behaviour is why the world is such a messed up place.

[chiantiman 10]

I agree with what you are saying about people going to these schools not becoming golf pros, win F1 races, or paint masterpieces. I suppose that a few people might go to a Tiger Woods school just for the experience, and to improve their golfing, not expecting to go pro. I doubt someone going through a trading course is doing it just so that they can loose money trading as a hobby for the fun of it.

 

So I guess the question is; what is the point of having training for golf, F1 racing, painting or trading if the vast majority of the students will fail? It seems that it is just a money making opportunity for the business owner at the expense of the students. It could be a way of finding talent, and giving people the opportunity, knowing that only a small percentage will succeed.

 

The point I am trying to make is that 100 people can receive the best training for any endeavour in life, and the majority will not go on to achieve the level of performance they would like, because they (as individuals) will not do what it takes.

 

Most business start-up owners fail - traders included.

[xkr1962 10]

Trading Is All About Discipline and Patience: It Cant Be Taught. It Cant Be Read In The Book. It Cant Be Bought.

 

I had made an effort to teach trading, and it was the worst headache ever. If I will ever do so in the future: it will be a very selective process. There is a reason, why it is diffcult to get in to Harvard. Accepting a bunch of clueless and naive into trading is a receipe for disaster, but is surely a great scam, which are plenty. Good trader does not need a headache of dealing with clueless: there is much more money made in trading, than teaching how to trade. Most so called Teachers on the net never made money trading, therefore they have to teach...sadly most are teaching only how to lose money.

 

If person is able to do anything that requires great dedication, such as: run marathon, quit smoking, stop drinking, become a yogi, practice meditation: there is hope. Just like all above: trading is doing the same thing each and every day : just like when you start yoga: you cant touch your toes, then one day bingo: You are a Pretzel..So Is Trading..

 

Ask yourself where do you fit in? Being hones may save you a whole a lot of money.

 

The way you do one thing in life is the way you do everything.

Life Is A Habit and So Is Trading: making it healthy or unhealthy is purely your choice.

Noone taught me how to trade: after being scammed many times over: I taught myself..just like all above.

 

Nice post, I agree with most of what you say including, "trading cannot be taught" however people can be pointed in the right direction and they can be shown a method works time and time again. That alone can save years of heartache, give encouragement to persevere and help avoid possible failure by switching methods when the going gets tough.

 

Would you consider starting work at 6am and finishing at 12 midnight for weeks at a time, or starting work at 12 midnight after finishing just 5 hours earlier then working full on for 16 hours, six or seven days a week? Would you work a fulltime job that meant working nights and then running your own business during the day? Would you work 6 days a week including Saturdays and Sundays for years and years?

 

I have done this sort of stuff all my life, I am not educated, and I never knew my dad, all I know is hard work, but it got me everything I wanted in life.

 

Running a business and employing good staff is no different than vetting potential traders. I guess the real problem on forums like this is that most of the people on here couldn't survive five minutes without mummy and daddies money and a silver spoon education.

 

Crack on clever guys.

 

If anyone struggling to trade needs help or motivation PM me.

 

Sorry for the rant.

[MightyMouse 12]

You really upset me with this post, you know absolutely nothing about me yet you respond in a rude and ignorant way.

 

That sort of behaviour is why the world is such a messed up place.

 

You have a system that works in any timeframe and works on an heavily traded currency or index. I wasn't being rude or trying to upset you, I was just referring to it as it should be referred to: the Holy Grail. The ark of the covenant?

 

I always wondered at the end of "Indiana Jones" where that holy grail was taken to. Now I know.

[hollisnan 10]

I have appreciated the many interesting and intriguing posts in this thread. My final thought - one that I repeat daily - is that I, and I alone, am responsible for my trading performance.

 

I have been a student at a trading school, a purchaser of books and information, and an attendee at conferences and trading events. I am grateful for all of these, but I can only hold MYSELF accountable for what I do with them, how I use them, and the results I achieve. None of the resources I purchased promised to make me successful as a trader (I bypassed the offers that made such promises), and I am skeptical of anyone who makes or implies such promises.

 

That's my long-winded way of saying that guarantees and payback schemes are, at best, a futile attempt to sidestep the placement of responsibility squarely where it belongs - on the trader's shoulders. Don't smoke "hopium" - develop discipline!

[TheNegotiator 13]

I have appreciated the many interesting and intriguing posts in this thread. My final thought - one that I repeat daily - is that I, and I alone, am responsible for my trading performance.

 

I have been a student at a trading school, a purchaser of books and information, and an attendee at conferences and trading events. I am grateful for all of these, but I can only hold MYSELF accountable for what I do with them, how I use them, and the results I achieve. None of the resources I purchased promised to make me successful as a trader (I bypassed the offers that made such promises), and I am skeptical of anyone who makes or implies such promises.

 

That's my long-winded way of saying that guarantees and payback schemes are, at best, a futile attempt to sidestep the placement of responsibility squarely where it belongs - on the trader's shoulders. Don't smoke "hopium" - develop discipline!

 

Spot on! Whatever you read and whoever you listen to, it is you that pulls the trigger. No one else. Resources of any kind can help point you in the right direction and even enlighten you to some truths in trading. But unless you take full responsibility to make your knowledge work, the fact is you will be more than likely to fail.

[SIUYA 11]

 

Running a business and employing good staff is no different than vetting potential traders. I guess the real problem on forums like this is that most of the people on here couldn't survive five minutes without mummy and daddies money and a silver spoon education.

 

Crack on clever guys.

 

If anyone struggling to trade needs help or motivation PM me.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

two points....

 

1) at a guess most people here definitely dont have silver spoons.....I once did but mummy ran away with the milkman, but after your rant I am not sure I would PM you for help

 

2)....I have employed some people, very talented people in fact.....none of them made good traders, and I went through a thoughtful trading orientated vetting process.

I dont think you can tell who is going to be any good until they are sitting and trading. period.

[TheNegotiator 13]

So in your experience Siuya, are there any specific traits which portend poor suitability for trading? I can certainly think of a few. I agree with you about whether someone ends up becoming a good trader tends to be less predictable at least on the metrics we would use to judge them prior to their training. But surely you wouldn't employ and train people on a random basis would you???

Edited April 4, 2011 by TheNegotiator

[xkr1962 10]

two points....

 

1) at a guess most people here definitely dont have silver spoons.....I once did but mummy ran away with the milkman, but after your rant I am not sure I would PM you for help

 

2)....I have employed some people, very talented people in fact.....none of them made good traders, and I went through a thoughtful trading orientated vetting process.

I dont think you can tell who is going to be any good until they are sitting and trading. period.

 

Yep point taken, my apologies, the moral, don't respond to rudeness until I have counted to 100.

 

Ref point 2, I agree with that also but alot depends on how discrentionary the method is I think.

[laguna 10]

Originally Posted by laguna

Trading Is All About Discipline and Patience: It Cant Be Taught. It Cant Be Read In The Book. It Cant Be Bought.

 

I never said " Trading Cant Be Taught: I said Discipline and Patience Cant Be Taught. Once that aquired: Skies Are The Limit.

 

Both: Discipline and Patience are required for any long lasting success in life: if its business, sport, hobby,

relationship...you name it..Lottery and incredible dumb luck may be the only exception. Working 20+ hrs in trading, including weekends..took me where I like to stay.for a while...Hope to go mich futher: still work 10-12 hr days, cause I Do Love Trading: That Is Something That Cant Be Taught Either.

[FXGirl 10]

Hi, Laguna: I'm not sure I agree with you. I think that discipline and patience can be taught. Little kids aren't disciplined or patient but they learn (at least some of them do). Even adults can learn discipline and patience - look at what happens in the armed forces. As for most adults, if they have a good enough motivator, they can learn just about anything if they are given the right information.

 

As to loving trading, I think that people love different things about the experience of trading. I started out loving the "puzzle" aspect of trading. Some love the challenge, some love that they are in control of their time and effort, etc. If traders become successful, I think they love the rewards of trading. So, if you can teach trading successfully, maybe, in the end, you are teaching love of trading.

[SIUYA 11]

So in your experience Siuya, are there any specific traits which portend poor suitability for trading?............................But surely you wouldn't employ and train people on a random basis would you???

 

This comes from my own experience and from discussion with others who have employed and fired more than me.

traits which on the surface would not help your success as a trader....these are things that you would find on a cv, or in an interview.....they are specific to shorter term trading. (my personal opinion only)

 

lots of finance/mathematical related degrees (unless you are looking for a programmer)

big picture people (they seem to forget that its often the little details that make all the difference in trading, these guys often think they dont need to cut losses)

People who make assumptions (too many preconceived ideas, that are not flexible enough)

People who dont have a passion for sitting down in a room and switching off whats going on around them. There are some people who still want to get involved in meetings, presentations etc; - stick to sales if this is the case.

People with too much hindsight. Its generally better to have someone who says - I dont know, or say I was wrong

 

While it seems next to impossible to really vet for some of this, if I got hints of these it did not seem to work. However, there is one extremely important turning point for a lot of these people that you just dont know, until they do or dont do it. You want to see them pull the trigger a few times, some people just cant - they want too much perfection, others are too eager to start gambling...there is that fine line of being happy and eager to pull the trigger but only when they need to..... such is trading.

 

In response to the second question......But surely you wouldn't employ and train people on a random basis would you???

I would not like to, nor think this is optimal, but I know of some guys who hired and fired a lot of market makers and short term frame traders, they all said that they learnt that it is a numbers game, the more people you hire and fire the better and the one thing they all said was that they should fire people quicker, the training is simple and after a simple vetting process it is not until they start trading can you tell....so I guess those with more experience than me in this field would answer yes - to a certain extent.

[MightyMouse 12]

This comes from my own experience and from discussion with others who have employed and fired more than me.

traits which on the surface would not help your success as a trader....these are things that you would find on a cv, or in an interview.....they are specific to shorter term trading. (my personal opinion only)

 

lots of finance/mathematical related degrees (unless you are looking for a programmer)

big picture people (they seem to forget that its often the little details that make all the difference in trading, these guys often think they dont need to cut losses)

People who make assumptions (too many preconceived ideas, that are not flexible enough)

People who dont have a passion for sitting down in a room and switching off whats going on around them. There are some people who still want to get involved in meetings, presentations etc; - stick to sales if this is the case.

People with too much hindsight. Its generally better to have someone who says - I dont know, or say I was wrong

 

While it seems next to impossible to really vet for some of this, if I got hints of these it did not seem to work. However, there is one extremely important turning point for a lot of these people that you just dont know, until they do or dont do it. You want to see them pull the trigger a few times, some people just cant - they want too much perfection, others are too eager to start gambling...there is that fine line of being happy and eager to pull the trigger but only when they need to..... such is trading.

 

In response to the second question......But surely you wouldn't employ and train people on a random basis would you???

I would not like to, nor think this is optimal, but I know of some guys who hired and fired a lot of market makers and short term frame traders, they all said that they learnt that it is a numbers game, the more people you hire and fire the better and the one thing they all said was that they should fire people quicker, the training is simple and after a simple vetting process it is not until they start trading can you tell....so I guess those with more experience than me in this field would answer yes - to a certain extent.

 

You need to hire engineers. They know how to figure out everything.

[Tradewinds 12]

You want to see them pull the trigger a few times, some people just cant - they want too much perfection, others are too eager to start gambling...there is that fine line of being happy and eager to pull the trigger but only when they need to..... such is trading.

 

This is the classic example of the two extremes of fear and impulsiveness. Both those extremes are bad. A trader needs to be impartial, not cold, . . . impartial. Also, calm and decisive. Traders trade their psychology. Whatever their psychology is, that is what they trade.

 

When it comes to a person's psychology, the assumption is, that you get what you get, and there is nothing you can do about it. When it comes to knowledge or technical ability, the assumptions are often different. Facts can be memorized; and practice and experience can increase proficiency. Good attitudes, hard work and motivation can increase productivity.

 

Many businesses send employees to courses like Dale Carnegie, or train people in business decision making models.

 

In trading, it is almost impossible to practice avoidance, or push problems to the back of the mind and not have that effect your performance. But this aspect of trading is often ignored.

[SIUYA 11]

yep - just two of the classic issues trader have among many, and when you are hiring people you cant necessarily afford nor want to waste the time sending them to some course that may or may not help them, when there are plenty of others who may fit the profile. As my friends who have hired and fired many say - fire them quicker....then when they are working for you after a period and are profitable then it may warrant sending them to better their skills.

Otherwise once again, trying to turn a monkey into a race horse may work but its often not worth the effort, better to work with a horse first

 

Plus when it comes to engineers MM - I have to agree - their mind does often work that way, however often they verge on the too perfectionist issue as they like the maths. A few friends who tried trading wanted to make everything perfect - they were not afraid to trade, they just liked a little less chaos......plus another crucial issue is what to do when everything around you is falling to pieces - often the guys who are quickest to react and assess the situation and be flexible enough to recognize the situation has changed are great ---- not sure who fits into this profile.

 

I hope to re-employ someone again in about a years time, but this time I will look for an assistant first and foremost, then if they look like they could trade I will give them the opportunity with out hesitation.

[Chippy 10]

I bought 3 programs from a trading site and I asked the owner that same question...."why do you offer it for sale if you make money from it every single year?" His response to me was..."I sell it to make more money. That is what this business is all about". LOL

 

So, I took a chance and bought 1 to try it out before the others, and it does decent. At first I would mess with it, and try to exit early or not take a trade I thought would be a loser, but ended up screwing myself even more. Leaving it to run with whatever he has programmed seems to be the best. I would say 90% of the programs out there are scams. Best thing you can do is ask the programmer/website guy straight up why he sells it. If they try to claim to help the world, blah blah blah, stay away. But if you get an honest answer....maybe it is worth a shot?

[MightyMouse 12]

I bought 3 programs from a trading site and I asked the owner that same question...."why do you offer it for sale if you make money from it every single year?" His response to me was..."I sell it to make more money. That is what this business is all about". LOL

 

So, I took a chance and bought 1 to try it out before the others, and it does decent. At first I would mess with it, and try to exit early or not take a trade I thought would be a loser, but ended up screwing myself even more. Leaving it to run with whatever he has programmed seems to be the best. I would say 90% of the programs out there are scams. Best thing you can do is ask the programmer/website guy straight up why he sells it. If they try to claim to help the world, blah blah blah, stay away. But if you get an honest answer....maybe it is worth a shot?

 

Scam might be a strong word. If the system merely took, say, last years data, mined it, and coded the best curve for it, then, yes, you bought junk. But if a system is designed to trade a trend or trade a range, then you might have a decent tool.

 

If someone is looking for magic, then they get what they deserve.

[Chippy 10]

Scam might be a strong word. If the system merely took, say, last years data, mined it, and coded the best curve for it, then, yes, you bought junk. But if a system is designed to trade a trend or trade a range, then you might have a decent tool.

 

If someone is looking for magic, then they get what they deserve.

 

It is probably more about risk management than anything else. If a program has a 60-70% win rate and the r/r is still 50%, then you will still have a winning program imo....