How I Would Charge for a Trading Course/system

[shakespeare515 10]

The topic is interesting because there are extreme conflicts. Why would anyone with an excellent system want to sell it? That doesn't make any sense to me. It brings up issues having to do with the intentions of the person selling the system, indicators, services, subscription, etc. One motivation a successful trader might have to make information available to others, would be a way to boost their ego. But there may be a certain degree of goodwill also. And I have read posts from people who stated that they had been helped in the past, and wanted to "give something back" to the trading community. So what motivates someone to put together a blog, subscription, indicators, or a system, could be a mix of motives and intentions. Effort needs to be exerted, and some wisdom employed, in order to determine what a person's intentions are.

 

One point that I am trying to make, is that for me personally, I want to have good intentions and a high standard of behavior. On the surface, having a 110% money back guarantee seems naive, and doomed to failure. And obviously, under most situations, a 110% money back guarantee would be foolish to offer. But consider if the sale were combined with a method of trying to filter out people who were not good candidates, plus a mentoring system, that might be a basic foundation for a way to increase the odds of success.

 

I don't have any plans to sell a trading system or trading indicators. What I'm saying is, that IF I were going to do that, then I would want to do business at a very high moral and ethical standard. That's the way I want to live me life, and that's the type of person I want to be.

 

Great conversation..

 

This is a common curiosity.. everyone wants to know why successful traders will share their systems..

 

First, you are not hurting your strategy by sharing.. If anything you are helping it.. For example, the reason fibonacci levels work so well is because everyone uses them. They are a self fulfilling prophecy so to speak, so if you can build up a group of traders all buying together, they will all help their positions, because buying makes price go up.

 

For those that claim that it wont work because their must be a loser on the other side is not realizing how big the market is. Not all transactions in forex are speculative traders, most transactions are actual commerce that is happening between large corporations, banks, and financial institutions who have very different reasons for making a forex transaction.. they could care less about some successful trader's strategy. So the idea of everyone being on the same side of a trade is impossible, unless you could persuade George Soros to follow your trades (ain't happenin')

 

To address the motives of any one "selling" a system, there are many reasons, one happens to be diversification of risk. It does not matter how successful a trader is, he will tell you that "not at risk" money is superior than "at risk" money. In my case, It is easy, I trade everyday, so why not project my screen through an online traderoom for the benefit of other traders and do what it is that I am doing anyway, TRADE! It's just efficient, plus I get the satisfaction of helping others and make connections with people all over the world.

 

Forex Education is an industry and the poor ones get weeded out in due time. I am proud to say I have been doing this publicly for over 5 years and have yet to receive a negative review.. you can google me

 

However, my whole point is... the skepticism is understood.. there are a lot of scams out there, but you will not know until you do your due diligence and then actually give one a try. You will make mistakes, and hopefully, you will learn from them.. But, at some point you have to let it go... and start getting serious about trading..

 

And in my opinion having a mentor or coach is a necessary step.. There are things that cannot be learned in a book, dvd, or online course, many things must be learned by watching live traders trade a live market..

 

...good trades,

Sam

[Tradewinds 12]

In my case, It is easy, I trade everyday, so why not project my screen through an online traderoom for the benefit of other traders and do what it is that I am doing anyway, TRADE! It's just efficient, plus I get the satisfaction of helping others and make connections with people all over the world.

...good trades,

Sam

 

This is something I would think lots of people, especially beginners, would be interested in. Is your screen projected in real time so that viewers could just follow your trades and do exactly what you are doing?

[shakespeare515 10]

This is something I would think lots of people, especially beginners, would be interested in. Is your screen projected in real time so that viewers could just follow your trades and do exactly what you are doing?

 

Exactly tradewinds, some traders are content just following and making pips, but I encourage them to learn, because I am giving guidance every second, I post recordings of my trading sessions on my site, so you can get a good feel for my trading style even before a potential trader starts their trial period. My site is ForexMalibu.

[MightyMouse 12]

Great conversation..

 

This is a common curiosity.. everyone wants to know why successful traders will share their systems..

 

First, you are not hurting your strategy by sharing.. If anything you are helping it.. For example, the reason fibonacci levels work so well is because everyone uses them. They are a self fulfilling prophecy so to speak, so if you can build up a group of traders all buying together, they will all help their positions, because buying makes price go up.

 

For those that claim that it wont work because their must be a loser on the other side is not realizing how big the market is. Not all transactions in forex are speculative traders, most transactions are actual commerce that is happening between large corporations, banks, and financial institutions who have very different reasons for making a forex transaction.. they could care less about some successful trader's strategy. So the idea of everyone being on the same side of a trade is impossible, unless you could persuade George Soros to follow your trades (ain't happenin')

 

To address the motives of any one "selling" a system, there are many reasons, one happens to be diversification of risk. It does not matter how successful a trader is, he will tell you that "not at risk" money is superior than "at risk" money. In my case, It is easy, I trade everyday, so why not project my screen through an online traderoom for the benefit of other traders and do what it is that I am doing anyway, TRADE! It's just efficient, plus I get the satisfaction of helping others and make connections with people all over the world.

 

Forex Education is an industry and the poor ones get weeded out in due time. I am proud to say I have been doing this publicly for over 5 years and have yet to receive a negative review.. you can google me

 

However, my whole point is... the skepticism is understood.. there are a lot of scams out there, but you will not know until you do your due diligence and then actually give one a try. You will make mistakes, and hopefully, you will learn from them.. But, at some point you have to let it go... and start getting serious about trading..

 

And in my opinion having a mentor or coach is a necessary step.. There are things that cannot be learned in a book, dvd, or online course, many things must be learned by watching live traders trade a live market..

 

...good trades,

Sam

 

OK. Which Fibonacci level works? And If they work, then why would they be any different than levels drawn on a chart by a child with crayons? Price reacts at every single tick or pip. You can choose to assign meaning to it or not. Your child's crayons would be just as effective as trading Fibonacci levels, so what is the benefit of signing up to provide you with satisfaction when we could have our child draw on our charts and give them the satisfaction that you seek?

 

Your idea of someone not needing to be a loser is somewhat flawed or at least not well thought out. If you enter long and, as you say, an institution is taking the other side of the trade and could care less that you are trading because they are simply liquidating a position as a result of commerce, then when you and your other traders need to sell, who are you going to sell to? If you are doing this for 5 years, you should know that you should not enter a trade unless you are pretty sure that someone is going to be willing to pay you for the risk you are taking. It sounds like you willfully paying someone else. If you can't identify who the loser is going to be, then the likelihood is that you are the loser in the trade. Do you enter trades based on hope and magic?

 

I will give you a simple example. If your group and I are the only traders trading and I am an institution squaring my books and you buy all the currencies I have, then who do you sell too if I never intend on buying back?

 

MM

[Tradewinds 12]

some traders are content just following and making pips, but I encourage them to learn,

 

There is also the issue of getting a feel for live trading. It's like learning to ride a bicycle with training wheels attached. I guess that's kind of a "wimpy" image for the macho and egotistical world of trading.

[shakespeare515 10]

OK. Which Fibonacci level works? And If they work, then why would they be any different than levels drawn on a chart by a child with crayons? Price reacts at every single tick or pip. You can choose to assign meaning to it or not. Your child's crayons would be just as effective as trading Fibonacci levels, so what is the benefit of signing up to provide you with satisfaction when we could have our child draw on our charts and give them the satisfaction that you seek?

 

Your idea of someone not needing to be a loser is somewhat flawed or at least not well thought out. If you enter long and, as you say, an institution is taking the other side of the trade and could care less that you are trading because they are simply liquidating a position as a result of commerce, then when you and your other traders need to sell, who are you going to sell to? If you are doing this for 5 years, you should know that you should not enter a trade unless you are pretty sure that someone is going to be willing to pay you for the risk you are taking. It sounds like you willfully paying someone else. If you can't identify who the loser is going to be, then the likelihood is that you are the loser in the trade. Do you enter trades based on hope and magic?

 

I will give you a simple example. If your group and I are the only traders trading and I am an institution squaring my books and you buy all the currencies I have, then who do you sell too if I never intend on buying back?

 

MM

 

 

MightyMouse,

 

Great questions...

 

Fib levels do work and I am pretty sure there is wide agreement in the trading community about the effect of Fibonacci levels on price action, but no reason to take their word for it, I also need to experience things first hand before believing them. I'll start a thread on fibonacci levels and post some charts that illustrate. (hopefully this week).

 

When when you will be able to post your charts showing the effectiveness of a child's crayon? ..jk. No, seriously, a child drawing lines on a chart is an ineffective foundation for a trading strategy.

 

Concerning your "mini market" example about a situation where there is only 1 institutional trader and 1 group of retail traders, and the retail group gets stuck when the institiutional trader decides not to buy or sell, essentially "freezing" the market. This was my point in earlier post.. This situation could not happen in forex. The market is too large, there are buyers and sellers at every price, the market does not "freeze" (unless some global crisis were to occur). And worrying about an event that has such a small chance of occuring is just a waste of energy and can only prevent you from becoming a better trader.

 

This is when I say, at some point one must let these ideas go and start becoming serious about trading. There are many ways to trade a market.. fundamentally, technically, scalping, swing trading, using MACD's, using fibs, ichomoku clouds, (some even children's crayons). Many of these work, if you think it is possible to have a successful trading career, then start learning about a style that interests you, find someone who is trading that style and learn it, trade it on demo, stick to it, and decide if its right for you. But you can't sit on the fence worrying about hypotheticals forever, in the meantime, I'll be making pips!

 

...good trades,

Sam

[shakespeare515 10]

There is also the issue of getting a feel for live trading. It's like learning to ride a bicycle with training wheels attached. I guess that's kind of a "wimpy" image for the macho and egotistical world of trading.

 

There is no place for ego in the market..

[MightyMouse 12]

MightyMouse,

 

Great questions...

 

Fib levels do work and I am pretty sure there is wide agreement in the trading community about the effect of Fibonacci levels on price action, but no reason to take their word for it, I also need to experience things first hand before believing them. I'll start a thread on fibonacci levels and post some charts that illustrate. (hopefully this week).

 

When when you will be able to post your charts showing the effectiveness of a child's crayon? ..jk. No, seriously, a child drawing lines on a chart is an ineffective foundation for a trading strategy.

 

Concerning your "mini market" example about a situation where there is only 1 institutional trader and 1 group of retail traders, and the retail group gets stuck when the institiutional trader decides not to buy or sell, essentially "freezing" the market. This was my point in earlier post.. This situation could not happen in forex. The market is too large, there are buyers and sellers at every price, the market does not "freeze" (unless some global crisis were to occur). And worrying about an event that has such a small chance of occuring is just a waste of energy and can only prevent you from becoming a better trader.

 

This is when I say, at some point one must let these ideas go and start becoming serious about trading. There are many ways to trade a market.. fundamentally, technically, scalping, swing trading, using MACD's, using fibs, ichomoku clouds, (some even children's crayons). Many of these work, if you think it is possible to have a successful trading career, then start learning about a style that interests you, find someone who is trading that style and learn it, trade it on demo, stick to it, and decide if its right for you. But you can't sit on the fence worrying about hypotheticals forever, in the meantime, I'll be making pips!

 

...good trades,

Sam

Sam,

 

You do not need to demonstrate the effectiveness of fibs. I have tested their effectiveness. You may want to test the random scribbles of your child and compare them to the fib levels to determine the relative effectiveness of the fibs.

 

As your own test, change the retracement levels to 15, 40, and 70 percent and you will see they are just as effective at calling turning points or targets. They will work, and be precisely as "self fulfilling".

 

I do not trade currencies, and I do not avoid them because they are too easy to trade. but I think you may be grandly mistaken if you think that you do not need to consider the action of large institutions because the market is too big. You would be mistaken if you did not consider the actions of any size traders since they all matter and play a role in the market.

 

If you understand how a market works, then you know that when you lose, a trader or group of traders took money from you. When you win, you or a group of traders including you made other traders exit at a loss. The absence of large buyers could create a liquidity struggle among small traders who need to sell. Astute traders who are watching will begin to mark down prices and make those in need of liquidity suffer. Of course they will gladly buy them back lower from you.

 

Trader 101 stuff. Good luck convincing people that the market allows you to tip toe in and tip toe out, with disregard of other traders, because of a system you use.

 

 

MM

[TimRacette 11]

Shakespeare, here's a screenshot of one of my setups using fib levels. I enter at 50%s stops below 61 and target above highs or lows by 23%.

[shakespeare515 10]

MM,

 

Since they are your idea, why don't you perform the tests, then post the results, and show us what you mean? It would do this forum a great service. I would love to see how a child's random scribbles can be turned into a successful trading strategy.

 

I never said I didn't consider what other traders are doing, I just said that the example you provided, where the market runs out of buyers and sellers does not happen in the forex market. The day forex liquidity dries up is the day the world stops turning, that is the day that international business comes to a halt, if that happens, then there will not be liquidity in ANY market.

 

To address your point about for every winner there is a loser (still not sure how this affects your success)...

 

If what you are trying to say is that there is a finite currency supply (the market) and that supply is continually being redistributed between the players, then yes, I agree, But to say that your winning trade is another traders losing trade I believe is incorrect.

 

Think about this, if you open a trade against another trader, then when you decide to exit, why doesn't the trader on the other side of the trade get to choose when he exits? Why would you get the privilege to decide when to close the trade? The truth is, your entries and exits are matched up against different trades. If you are Long Eur/Usd, you have to "sell" to exit. so when you exit someone else has to "buy" it. That "buy" could be someone closing a short trade (for loss or profit), or it could also be someone else opening a new long trade.) each trade is not a head on battle with another trader. I would characterize it more as everyone vs. the market.

 

Of course not everyone can win, there will always be losers, and there is no such thing as a 100% trading system, you will always have losers, it is a part of trading, it's about having more winners than losers and managing risk.

 

 

Sam

Edited March 30, 2011 by shakespeare515
typo

[MightyMouse 12]

MM,

 

Since they are your idea, why don't you perform the tests, then post the results, and show us what you mean? It would do this forum a great service. I would love to see how a child's random scribbles can be turned into a successful trading strategy.

 

I never said I didn't consider what other traders are doing, I just said that the example you provided, where the market runs out of buyers and sellers does not happen in the forex market. The day forex liquidity dries up is the day the world stops turning, that is the day that international business comes to a halt, if that happens, then there will not be liquidity in ANY market.

 

To address your point about for every winner there is a loser (still not sure how this affects your success)...

 

If what you are trying to say is that there is a finite currency supply (the market) and that supply is continually being redistributed between the players, then yes, I agree, But to say that your winning trade is another traders losing trade I believe is incorrect.

 

Think about this, if you open a trade against another trader, then when you decide to exit, why doesn't the trader on the other side of the trade get to choose when he exits? Why would you get the privilege to decide when to close the trade? The truth is, your entries and exits are matched up against different trades. If you are Long Eur/Usd, you have to "sell" to exit. so when you exit someone else has to "buy" it. That "buy" could be someone closing a short trade (for loss or profit), or it could also be someone else opening a new long trade.) each trade is not a head on battle with another trader. I would characterize it more as everyone vs. the market.

 

Of course not everyone can win, there will always be losers, and there is no such thing as a 100% trading system, you will always have losers, it is a part of trading, it's about having more winners than losers and managing risk.

 

 

Sam

 

I am not suggesting that a child's scribbles will create a a winning strategy. I am suggesting that the scribbles will be as effective as the Fibonacci levels. If all factors are taken into account, then in the long run, the scribbles will provide as good a level as the Fibonacci levels do. Or they will be just as bad as each other. The 15, 40 and 70% levels will work out just as well as the scribbles and the Fibonacci levels.

 

The Fibonacci levels were not developed as a trading tool. Someone at some point, looking for magic, in the market superimposed the Levels on a chart and saw things. The fact that a lot of people use them suggests nothing more than the fact that a lot of traders are looking for magic in the market.

 

People can look at a window pane and see the image of the Virgin Mary. They see it because the want to see it and I suppose they really believe it is there and they are seeing it for a reason. Traders look at charts and see things too.

 

I am not saying that yo should stop using Fibonacci levels or that you should not use gann or any other sort of voodoo market indicator. If it allows you to get in and stay in, then it doesn't matter if it is the arse of a dead house fly or a Fibonacci level, then use it to your benefit.

 

It is not everyone against the market. It is a zero sum game. if we do not consider spreads or utility paid or gained from trading. In order for there to be a winner there has to be a loser. otherwise everyone pays the spread and goes home. Your take is your pips you minus the spread you pay to play in the forex market.

 

Yes forex is large.but you are mistaken about liquidity. Liquidity typically won't dry up completely though it did last spring, but there are periods every single day in nearly each forex pair where there is poor liquidity. In fact, when you are in a trade, your hope is that liquidity dries up opposite to your trade. That is how a trend occurs. A market goes up quickly when there are few sellers and a lot of buyers, poor liquidity. A market goes down quickly when there are few buyers and a lot of sellers. In each case nearly all buyers and sellers are in agreement about price direction. The faster the move, the more they buyers and sellers agree. It happens every single day. If it doesn't happen you will categorically exclaim that the day sucked. A range or a period of high liquidity is when traders disagree on price.

 

MM

[TimRacette 11]

Shakespeare, here's a screenshot of one of my setups using fib levels. I enter at 50%s stops below 61 and target above highs or lows by 23%.

 

We moved the fib discussion here Fibs on ES and 6E - Traders Laboratory - Professional Traders Community

[TradeRunner 10]

I would love to see how a child's random scribbles can be turned into a successful trading strategy.

 

There was thread on another trading forum that experimented with drawing random lines on a chart and looked to see if the market "appeared" to react to them. Search for "Random Line Theory" and you will find it.

 

A few people just didn't get it or didn't want to accept it.

[MightyMouse 12]

There was thread on another trading forum that experimented with drawing random lines on a chart and looked to see if the market "appeared" to react to them. Search for "Random Line Theory" and you will find it.

 

A few people just didn't get it or didn't want to accept it.

 

Thanks for saving me the time and effort to prove what I intuitively knew and accidentally tested some time ago. Not with a child's scribbles, but I noticed how the market "reacted" to stray lines on a chart.

 

I have heard other things too. A trader I know showed me a chart of the weekly Es back into 2008 and he showed me how " to the tick" it bounced off the low of a weekly bar back in 2008 and he took it short. Well, the fact is that a continuous contract chart of any futures contract plots an estimate or representation of where the market was then relative to now. A Zenfire chart may not be the same as esignal or TS. So, everyone is looking at a different low for that week back in 2008. And the fact is that the low was not the real low of that week in 2008 if you were there live in 2008 and is probably off by about 5, maybe 10 points.

 

Nothing begins until you enter the market so if its going to get you into the market and you are smart enough to learn how to take money when you are in it then scribble, dart, or Fib is just fine.

[Tradewinds 12]

I just opened a thread titled: Random Line Theory

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f34/random-line-theory-9563.html#post115744

[rickm811 10]

for what its worth, Sam's post is 100% on target. If you know about the Turtles from the 1980's, you can give a trader a rock solid system and some will follow it and some just can't. Good old fear and greed get in the way.

 

Rick

[emg 12]

If I were going to sell a trading system, or have someone pay me for a trading course, I would make them a guarantee. I would guarantee that they will make money in simulated trading within a certain time period, or I will give them 110% of their money back. That is the way I would do business. And I wouldn't charge them much up front. If I could teach someone to make money trading, then they would have plenty of money to pay me later. If I can't teach someone to make money trading, then I shouldn't be getting anything.

 

Before you sell your system or become a 3rd party vendor, you should consult CFTC and SEC.

[FXGirl 10]

Shakespeare, you make a good point about “making the mistake of believing that YOU can single handedly make someone successful…” Some people will have problems executing even the most profitable system. So if you are going to offer a guarantee, it has to be on the system itself, not a trader’s results with trading the system.

 

Tradewinds, I like your idea that the upfront cost of the trading system or course should be small. That makes it more affordable (easier to pay for the system later when you are making money than at the beginning) and more attractive (if it doesn’t work, you haven’t invested a lot of money in the system/course). And I also like the idea that if you can’t teach someone to make money, then you shouldn’t be getting any – in fact, I like that a lot!

 

Some of the guys in the group I trade with are trying to come up with a fair model for offering Forex day trading signals with a live trading room. Here is what they are considering:

 

1. Signals and trading room on a pay-by-the-week basis, unsubscribe anytime.

2. If their signals (as announced in the daily morning trading room) don't make enough pips so that if you were trading one standard lot you would cover the cost of the weekly subscription, that week is free.

3. Free mentoring for 30-days (must be subscribed to the signals/trading room during that time). Mentoring consists of two small-group sessions each week with a master trader. Sessions will focus on addressing specific trading issues the participants are having.

 

Charging by the week would make it a reasonable cost to try the system (one of Tradewind’s criteria). The pay-only-when-we-win aspect would address another of Tradewind’s requirements and also speaks to Shakespeare’s caution about not pinning a refund to individual results. The free mentoring is in the interest of both the trader and the signal provider. The more support you can give traders, the more likely they will be successful with your system and want to continue.

 

What do you think?

[hollisnan 10]

Sam made some excellent points in the post which is quoted below. To take it one step further, I would like to contrast *education* with *training*. Education may be a passive, one-way street which confers no obligation on the student other than to listen (politely, we hope >;>). Training implies that a skill is being acquired, and this in turn requires the active participation of the learner.

 

Drawing on the old riff "it works if you work it", any training guarantee should be predicated on the learner's compliance with the standards and practices that the training imparts. In other words, it's not enough for them to simply "take the class". They need to implement it, and to demonstrate that they have implemented it, in their trading.

 

Of course, you can't "make someone a successful trader". It's an inside job! In fact, the business may benefit from refunding tuition costs to an inept trader. A losing trader who attributes his/her lack of success to the training provider would be casting a long, dark shadow of negative PR over the company!

 

Hollis

 

Tradewinds and Mighty Mouse,

 

Good conversation, But you are missing one perspective, that of the forex mentor...

 

Consider this..

 

A professional sports team holds spring training try outs. This professional team has the best coaches money can buy, who have developed the best curriculum (training program) possible, using top of the line equipment and facilities. However, of all the pro athletes in attendance, some will be all stars, some will be second stringers, and yes, there will be some who frankly get cut from the team.

 

for those athletes that get cut, who's fault was it? was it the coaches? was it the equipment? No. The difference is INSIDE EACH ATHLETE. You see there is a level of personal responsibility that comes with learning a new skill and then using that skill to achieve success. maybe it's perserverence, maybe discipline, who knows? it's different for everyone.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is not about the system, it is about the INDIVIDUAL TRADER, a good trader can make almost any system profitable, but a lousy trader will lose money with a profitable system. So it is noble of you to offer 110% refund, but you would be making the mistake of believing that YOU can single handedly make someone successful, and that is simply not true.

 

Does Harvard give you a refund on your tuition if you are not successful in the career of your degree? Not hardly. But do you doubt the credibility of that school? of course not.

 

Some people are just not cut out to be traders. and if you offer unrealistic refunds, you will be out of business and will not be able to help anyone.

 

Just my two cents...

 

...good trades,

Sam

[Tradewinds 12]

In fact, the business may benefit from refunding tuition costs to an inept trader. A losing trader who attributes his/her lack of success to the training provider would be casting a long, dark shadow of negative PR over the company!

 

Hollis

 

That's a good point, and made me think of some other possibilities. Actually, this would be taking the "product" way past the indicator, black box, or system concept; more towards an employee/franchise sort of business relationship.

 

The seller of a system could pay the trainee a percentage out of the trading profits during their training period. If the "buyer" of the system made money trading the system, then the outlay of money they buyer made would be showing results, and paying a return. And the buyer of the system would see the potential of their investment. If the buyer of the system was paying out money at the very beginning, then it would increase the odds that they are a serious candidate, and motivated to succeed.

[chiantiman 10]

I've been an international athlete for my country and operated a successful business all over the world. Few people know the blood, sweat, tears, hurt and years that it took me to excel in both of those areas. They just see you at your prime and think it all came so easy - "he's so lucky he can just do that".

 

The same 'intelligent persistence' applied to trading. It took me several years to be able to make a living from it, and whilst you don't need a lot of intelligence to place a trade, you do need intelligence to realise that the difference between successful and unsuccessful traders is not down to the trading method. Then you need the intelligence to find and follow through on solutions that address your issues and allow you to enter the elusive world of consistent trading.

 

Similar to what Sam wrote; most people going to the Tiger Woods school of Golf would not excel in the way he has. He could not offer a money back guarantee that any Tom, Dick & Harry would become top golfers after undergoing his training because the real work is down to them and most people don't do what it takes to excel.

 

Most drivers who jump into an F1 race car at the Michael Schumacher school of racing and undergo a 1 week course would never win an F1 race. Schumacher could not offer a money back guarantee that any Tom, Dick & Harry would become top F1 drivers after undergoing his training because the real work is down to them and most people don't do what it takes to excel.

 

Most people who go to the Dali school of art would never produce such masterpieces and most people who spend a week with Donald trump would fail in business. Neither could offer a money back guarantee that any Tom, Dick & Harry would become successes after undergoing their training because most people don't do what it takes to excel.

 

Trading is just another endeavour in life where most people fail and the minority do what it takes to succeed and excel.

 

Trading can attract anyone who can click a mouse and put a few dollars into an account. As money is one of the main drivers of the human race; and as it is far easier to start trading than to start almost any other type of business, trading sees more potential failures pass through its doors than most other businesses.

 

So offering a money back guarantee on trading courses is even less feasible than offering it for most other businesses.

[WorldTrader 10]

Great topic...Let me add my Two Cents. I run a live Forex room in the evenings. I can tell you that even though I call each of the trades and we all use the same entry, stop and targets..we each have different results. Some folks have crappy brokers and get bad fills or they get stopped out and others don't. Others, even though they are told, you must add the spread to each buy...they forget, so they get triggered into a trade that the rest of us or flat on.

I really enjoy teaching them how to trade and the art of forex trading. The system is good and the equity curve continues to grow, but again at different rates for different people. Now on to the matter of refunds.

I don't offer any refund, I don't guarantee you will make money in any one month or week, but I do guarantee you will learn how to trade and you get all of my resources for that month that you paid. Spreadsheet of performace, my select pairs, my exact trade plan and so on and so on. Some, people quit, they find out forex or swing trading is not their cup of tea. I think if I gave them 110% back, that would open the door to the lookey loos and those that are not serious. I work hard for my money and try to teach those that are teachable. Not much in file is free execpt advice and this great website and community of traders, who give back to the community!

On that final note, I do give things away free. I got a call from a guy who had the system, a medical student, said he did not have any money to pay for a month of my help and training. Come on $97..if you don't have that, how can you trade anything and try to supplement your income..I did not ask him how much he had to trade. Anyway, I gave him my select pairs and trade plan to help him out and maybe he will come join once he has made some money on his own.

Thanks again for this great Thread!

[Tradewinds 12]

most people going to the Tiger Woods school of Golf would not excel in the way he has. . .. . . . .

Most drivers who jump into an F1 race car at the Michael Schumacher school of racing and undergo a 1 week course would never win an F1 race. . . . . .

 

Most people who go to the Dali school of art would never produce such masterpieces and most people who spend a week with Donald trump would fail in business. Neither could offer a money back guarantee that any Tom, Dick & Harry would become successes after undergoing their training because most people don't do what it takes to excel.

 

I agree with what you are saying about people going to these schools not becoming golf pros, win F1 races, or paint masterpieces. I suppose that a few people might go to a Tiger Woods school just for the experience, and to improve their golfing, not expecting to go pro. I doubt someone going through a trading course is doing it just so that they can loose money trading as a hobby for the fun of it.

 

So I guess the question is; what is the point of having training for golf, F1 racing, painting or trading if the vast majority of the students will fail? It seems that it is just a money making opportunity for the business owner at the expense of the students. It could be a way of finding talent, and giving people the opportunity, knowing that only a small percentage will succeed.

[Tradewinds 12]

I run a live Forex room in the evenings. I can tell you that even though I call each of the trades and we all use the same entry, stop and targets..we each have different results.

 

That is interesting. Thanks for sharing your real world experience. You can put your website address in your user profile info.

[SIUYA 11]

[quote name=Tradewinds;115933

 

So I guess the question is; what is the point of having training for golf' date=' F1 racing, painting or trading if the vast majority of the students will fail? It seems that it is just a money making opportunity for the business owner at the expense of the students. It could be a way of finding talent, and giving people the opportunity, knowing that only a small percentage will succeed.[/quote]

 

Tradewinds......your approach/mindset is all wrong......there is not a matter of failure. In many sports/artistic endeavours its the participation that is the key......you seem to be approaching it from a why bother if you cannot be number one.

 

There is no first, second third place in trading.....there is profit and loss.

 

It is inevitable that only a few will succeed to the top....that is why it is called the top.