Your Mama Doesn't Trade ... So Wise Up to Yourself!

[Ingot54 13]

Regarding your points:

 

1) So what kinds of things happen to a trader to bring out these anxieties/problems? Obviously' date=' they have losses.

 

2) Were these pre-existing – perhaps the trader is unsuited emotionally/psychologically to trade? Sure, almost any reaction we have as an adult has echoes from the past. If you believe that “perhaps the trader is unsuited emotionally/psychologically to trade”, you have acknowledged that psychological issues can impact the ability to trade. It’s all a matter of degree.

 

3) Did the problems develop as a result of negative trading experiences? Of course they did… in conjunction with the unresolved issues, inaccurate beliefs, and ineffective strategies (just like we all have) that the trader brought with him when he started trading.

 

4) Were these trading experiences a result of poor preparation technically, and thus can be rectified in the same way? Maybe and maybe not. We’d have to examine this on a case-by-case basis.

 

5) Can Psychological therapy/counseling really bring a trader with a poor strategy/approach to trading to a condition of positive outcome?[/quote']

 

Well, to use the current vernacular:

 

Ah FxGirl, Dear, dear FxGirl (hope you didn't find that as patronising as I did)

 

I think I have probably stated my point quite clearly, but between yourself and Rande, the water is beginning to get a little muddy. I don't like having to continually clear up the blurring of the lines, but I will have one last go before abandoning the argument!

 

I truly have to strongly disagree on your point #3:

 

3.But if you have an edge and can’t trade it' date=' something psychological is getting in the way.[/quote']

 

I find this to be an oversimplification and frankly, poorly argued. You can do better.

Why does it have to be "something psychological" getting in the way? Why isn't it the failure of the trader to take responsibility for lack of focus, lack of commitment, lack of consistency, failure to write out the rules, failure to follow the rules.

 

In short, ALL of the things his Mommy would tell him to do if she was holding his sweet, pink hand!

 

Well, I have news for all the pink-hand traders - Your Mama Doesn't Trade!

So Wise Up To Yourself!

 

To introduce a red herring is poor debating technique.

 

No one is saying the novice trader with an excellent edge is going to sail away into the sunset with a massive retirement account, purely by "being given, in an ideal world, a trading system with clear, concise rules and a known win/loss ratio."

 

No one has suggested that anywhere, and I find it mischievious of you to say so - it is a deflection from the main story. No one is "given a trading system with clear, concise rules ... etc" when they start to trade. They may seek such a strategy, but few have it in their hands from the outset.

 

The truth is - and I suspect you already know this - no one has "psychological issues" until they begin to experience losses - and it is the fear of further losses that creates the anxiety. In this case, the anxiety is a VERY HEALTHY response to loss - actually a natural protective mechanism - and something that can be overcome very quickly by experiencing a few good wins!

 

My contention all along is that we do NOT need any opportunistic psychologist to come along and hold the hand of this trader, in order to diagnose and treat his "psychological issues." Let me be VERY clear about that - I am immovable on that point. The last thing this trader needs is to have his Momma come along and say: "Here darling, let me cuddle you."

 

NO!!!

 

What the trader needs is to take a step back, and take a darned good hard look at the way he is trying to trade. Is he actually following to the letter, a trading strategy - a P-L-A-N that has been shown to work? Or is he using "trader's licence" and tweaking as he goes, because he "thinks" the trade might/might not do something different?

 

My position is that if a trader has spent a few thousand hours of screen time (note: not quite the "starting to trade" model ... is it?) EVERYONE without exception has to go through the many phases of the market, to understand the many trends-within-trends that exist, and has to come to the point where he is finally willing to discipline himself to commit to consistency and execution of strategy, in a F-O-C-U-S-E-D way. These things are so remotely removed from your novice trader model, that I find it ludicrous for you to have introduced it into the discussion.

 

And during that process their psychological architecture' date=' or as Rande puts it, their belief system, impacts how they approach developing their edge and how they respond to the experience of frequent losing trades. Rande is spot on when he says, “it is those beliefs that do your trading.”[/quote']

 

Look FxGirl - I can only respond to that in the negative, and I will try to restrain myself from expressing it too strongly!!!

 

It is very clear to anyone looking on, that the bulk of the "support industry" - and that includes

system sellers

webinar hosts

those who run courses

sell books

offer mentoring for a fee

offer coaching for a fee

sell elite newsletters

run elite-level forums

offer psychological therapies

offer counseling for traders

proprietary indicator sellers

EA sellers (robots and auto-signal generators)

and in fact anything that caters to the need for traders to gain an advantage in trading, have NOT MADE A SINGLE SCRATCH on the success rate of traders in general.

 

The statistics need refreshing and verifying, to be candid, but I read today ONE percent of the traders are making 99% of the money in trading.

 

Now I am pleased for you to come along and state whatever you like - but until the evidence begins to point to a change in these statistics people like me will remain extremely shy of psychologists who purport to "fix" the heads of failing traders.

 

As an example - Rande made a statement that would take a skilled linguist to decipher - I will deal with that in my final post to this thread. Such gobbledegook means NOTHING to the ordinary reader, but ostensibly portrays Rande as an erudite and informed psychologist. That may well be the case, but I contend that someone who writes in that kind of language, might be at home amongst his university peers, but in order to win the confidence of the ordinary trader, he will have to learn to speak the language of the trader.

 

To that end, he has wasted an opportunity - and this is one of the first rules of teaching - to speak to the lowest common denominator in the room - the person whose understanding is least developed.

 

Someone who wants to teach others needs to remember that principle - not come along with highbrow expressions of intellectualism.

 

My final word to you on this subject, is to please stick to the facts. Please do not seek to muddy the waters by painting hypotheticals that demean the intent of the writer.

 

The situation is that traders get beaten up by the market.

This teaches them to worry about their next trade. Naturally and healthy so to do.

They look for a better indicator. It fails too.

They look for a better strategy. Ditto.

They continue to battle the markets, hoping for the turnaround event to rescue them from this failure.

One day they hear that a mechanical strategy works.

They get some initial success, but eventually begin to lose again.

Eventually someone introduces them to the concept of discipline.

They have heard this before, but have no clue what it means.

Someone explains to them that it means being CONSISTENT in applying their strategy.

It means getting seriously COMMITTED to their strategy.

They hear that being FOCUSED on ONE market and MASTERING that single market is best.

Initially they mess up, because they think they can get by from memory.

Then they hear that the RULES need to be written down, and FOLLOWED as per checkpoints.

Suddenly it begins to not only make sense ... it is WORKING.

 

And note - not a single counselor, coach, psychologist, webinar, newsletter, book etc in sight.

 

Oh yes - such things exist, and no doubt they do have their place - I have read over 100 trading books - around 40 I owned before I trashed them all, and about another 50 or 60 from the library. I have printed off reams of systems, .pdf documents, and I have about 250 "favourites" on my browser that point to trading information. There is no end to the searching I did, and the voyage of discovery I undertook.

 

But the industry that exists to "support" the trader, is false - fake - charlatan - and failing and failed! I wasted hundreds of dollars on false promises. I paid $1800 for a course that I abandoned after 3 months as too complicated.

 

Why?

 

Because of promises and the desire to believe that people really want to help others. Rubbish - they just want to help themselves. And the quicker people that want to succeed at trading come to realize that, the better off they will be. After 7 years of working at trading at least as much as I did in my full-time job (That equals desire and commitment to succeed) I can tell you what it takes.

 

And I have listed all of those things in this thread - if not in this post.

 

No one will tell you as straight as I will, and no one will help you as freely as I will.

 

I am almost done with this thread now - it has exposed what I intended to expose.

[Ingot54 13]

If you accept the assumption that trading is a mirror into how effective your beliefs are (the the barometer is your trading account)' date=' then your psychology is the organization of those beliefs. [/quote']

 

Rande - who made that assumption? I don't accept it in the slightest.

 

The effectiveness of my beliefs are measured by the action I take - the action to drill down to the core of my own trading problems. Not only that - I am not offering a course, or a book - or a webinar. I just state what I have found to work - the things that are effective in trading, and it is MORE to do with my own CONSISTENCY, COMMITMENT to my STRATEGY, FOCUS on my RULES, and FOLLOWING my PLAN to the letter.

 

No one needs to do a course telling them that their trading is a mirror of their beliefs. Just read the facts - right here on this thread, on Traders laboratory - freely.

 

And it is those beliefs that do your trading. If you can adapt those beliefs so that you produce successful trading' date=' great. The problem is that the vast majority of traders do not do this one fundamental thing. You can take the long way to adaptation of those beliefs, or you can find a mentor to shorten the learning curve. It's your choice. I consistently see traders move from one level of trading competency to a higher level in 3 months. And they view the money they have willingly spent with me as an investment into their future.[/quote']

 

With respect - "Rubbish!"

 

How can you say "It is those beliefs that do the trading."?

 

In fact it is the trader failing to follow the rules that is "doing the trading."

When the trader has come to the end of himself, he will wise up and begin to seriously address the issues I have mentioned above.

 

If you can convince those traders that YOU have the solution to their trading woes, then good. During your dealings with them, no doubt (I have to assume here, because I am not privy to the inner workings of your course) it will be expected that you will of course impart some of the wisdom that leads to trading success?

 

Things like:

FOCUS

COMMITMENT

CONSISTENCY

RULES

TRADING PLAN

 

Strange eh? In fact the same things I have mentioned in this thread, consistently from the first post.

 

You are going to invest money either through the school of hard knocks or you may decide to shorten the learning curve. If you cut to the chase' date=' the trading account will speak about whether you need help or not.[/quote']

 

This is an assumption that really does need to be stamped right out in this industry. Who says that anyone can "decide to shorten the learning curve"? It goes without saying that beginning traders need assistance. But I strongly and categorically resist the notion that the "help" needs to come in the form of Psychology.

 

Here's why ... and I have already mentioned it earlier.

 

When a newbie comes to the trading room for the first time - they have NO psyche problems per se (unless they already have a psychiatric condition).

 

What does happen is that the reality of the markets runs over them like a Mack truck! Suddenly their dreams are shattered as it dawns on them that it is not as simple as put-in-take-out as promised by the $197-00 guaranteed money-in-a-hurry system backed by a 60-day no-questions-asked guarantee.

 

They go down the path of looking for a better strategy, better indicator, better edge and so on. But each blow of the market cuts down their arrogance, their insolence and even eventually their petulance, as they realize that no one is coming to their rescue. Their Mama can't hold their hand this time. They have to take responsibility for their OWN learning and success, if it is to happen at all.

 

I would be willing to wager that even YOU have your failed students, Rande.

 

What do you say to them?

 

Something like "It is time to take responsibility for yourself, and APPLY with FOCUS, CONSISTENCY, COMMITMENT the RULES you have learned, to your WRITTEN STRATEGY."

 

Would that be right?

 

I am saying that they can circumvent the step of dealing with Psychologist-cum-Coach-cum-Mentor by growing up a little, and being responsible for their own results. Until traders cross over this final frontier, no amount of hand-holding, mentoring, coaching or counseling and therapy will effect a permanent change in behaviour for the trader. The shift HAS to happen in the head before it will happen in the account.

 

The story is the same for someone wanting to quit cigarettes - they make several attempts before they are ready to commit to stopping smoking. All the patches, gum, hypnotherapy etc won't work unless there is that MENTAL SHIFT to allow it work. Without that, the smoker will soon go back to smoking.

 

One other thing. My early work involved emotional regulation of anger' date=' fear, and impulse with populations that included violent prisoners, fear based populations, trauma victims, and impulse disorders. I have found these very skills to be very useful in working with traders. Why? Because the vast majority of traders trade from fear, anger, or impulse. That's just the human condition. [/quote']

 

With respect, Rande - it suits your purposes very well to declare "That's just the human condition." My contention is that YOUR industry - purportedly set up to "help" failing traders, has NOT made a single dent in the statistics of failure. Yet you make your living - or a part of it - from doing just that.

 

I don't deny you the right to do what you do - but I also reserve the right to illustrate that what you do is NOT improving the industry.

 

In fact you are only telling a part of the truth here. Why don't you mention that fear, anger, impulse are actually learned responses. And that we do not bring these conditions with us to the market?

 

These emotions are created in traders from the ground up, because the fear of the next trade is NOT the same as the fear of the Police, or the fear of a hot stove. The point is that when we begin trading, we do not have these fears. There may be a degree of excitement or trepidation, but not fear. Fear comes later as we LEARN that the market is not the tame beast we thought it to be.

 

The "fear" is actually respect, the way we respect a snake. We try different ways of handling it, before we learn the correct way. We will always have the respect for what the snake can do to us if handled incorrectly, and without safeguards, but we no longer fear it.

 

It is the same with trading. Once we know how to handle the market we trade, the fear vanishes. The respect remains.

 

I am done with this thread - feel free to respond in any way you wish - but please be truthful, and please don't introduce things that excuse the trader from taking responsibility for himself and his trading activities.

 

I have given the qualities/steps/actions in this thread that can and do make a HUGE difference to the success or otherwise for traders. They differ widely from what you are teaching, simply because they are to the point, factual and FREE. There is no highbrow language in what I have written, and I do not seek to confuse anyone with my flowery language. I don't need to reveal my own professional learning or degrees to simply tell the truth like it is.

 

Thanks to all contributors, and I am convinced that if the principles I have given in this thread are adopted, there remains nothing standing in the way of your success in trading.

[SIUYA 11]

Ingot - please take this in the right way as I feel you have a bee in the bonnet that is buzzing around and you wont let it quit....even thought you say you have finished with the discussion.... and while I agreed with your basic ideas I hope this does not keep tormenting you

 

Points I would make.

1) When you say.....

"Why does it have to be "something psychological" getting in the way? Why isn't it the failure of the trader to take responsibility for lack of focus, lack of commitment, lack of consistency, failure to write out the rules, failure to follow the rules.""

 

I would imagine.....these things are psychological. Something blocks people from doing these things when really there is no excuse when then dont people do them.....apart from something mental.

 

2) the turtle experiment pretty much showed that you can give people rules that have an edge, and not everyone will follow them. These rules are freely available. (they may have not been sucessful recently) but the premise works, with personal variations. So people can be given rules.This style of trading also shows that much of the time....

 

3) different personalities are suited to different styles. Some people are great scalpers, others swing traders, others long term holders. Sometimes it takes more time to recognise this.....(Sorry Rande I know you dont like to pigeon hole but we all know it true....just as some people might be better shot putters than sprinters, a good coach wont change this ) (example; I know a trader who is great at taking on risk, but not good at taking it off.....he excels in some markets and NOW knows to avoid certain markets. He did not seek coaching, he just knows what works for him....or more importantly what does not.

 

4) often many people dont go the extra mile required, not in hours spent looking but in hours thinking. Having a trading plan is useless if you dont have a philosophy/theory on the markets and how they work. You need to have a reason for why your plan will work, and you need to then follow up for why things may or may not be working....and then if required a coach may help. (just as a Doctor will not always cure you a coach may or may not help....but often they might help steer you back on track)

 

5) Nobody normal is correctly predisposed to trading/investments/rational monetary decsions (this is consistently shown).....just as most of us cannot deal with the handling of money, assets and human desire to maxmise short term gains over long term gains. We always to easily forget the adages of - if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is, compounding is your best tool, you cant predict the future, etc; etc;

Often the edge is in the mind....not just in the plan. These are not mutually exclusive.....often the best plans cannot be backtested without years of actual trading, even those computersised backtested systems are not the greatest in reality, and many great traders cannot be backtested by a computer. Sometimes the backtesting can show the premise works, but the edge is understanding how it works, why it works, when it doesnot and when best to break the rules....this can also be a disciplined and recorded process.

On this point......it is not the start of trading and taking losses that starts the problems....they already exist! There are plenty of people who make money out of sheer luck, think they are geniuses and the smart ones stop or learn before the market shows they are not.....its not losses that cause the problems, its us. (if trading was a game, and did not involve money, I would wager many people would do much better at it.)

 

Finally I would say.....using a different analogy I touched on before witht he diet and exercise industry....as its far easier to diet and exercise than trade.....yet many of us still dont do it.

Often people employ a coach/trainer to help.....if they need them....and it works for them.

Others join gyms and never go.

The fact that most people a fat lazy slobs does not mean the industry is useless. but i would contend that as a new trader to the industry then yes Ingot is right, its is largely a waste of money, and coaching is at its best value when you know what you are doing, and need a helping hand.

The criticsm should be that the industry preys on the new comers with false promises ....as do many industries.

Edited February 27, 2011 by SIUYA

[FXGirl 10]

Dear Ingot:

 

Please accept my apologies if you felt that I was being patronizing. My “Ah, Ingot, dear Ingot” was meant only as a friendly, conversational way of beginning the post, as though we were old friends sitting together having a cup of coffee. Without the cues of vocal inflection, body language and facial expression, it’s easy to see how we can miss read each other – sorry if I wasn’t clear.

 

I do believe that you are absolutely and unequivocally right when you said, “The shift HAS to happen in the head before it will happen in the account.” That shift is the psychological aspect of trading.

 

We agree that the successful trader must “…take responsibility for yourself, and APPLY with FOCUS, CONSISTENCY, COMMITMENT the RULES you have learned, to your WRITTEN STRATEGY.” But being able to stay focused and trade consistently with commitment, as you have said, requires “shift” in the head, hence psychology – the mental game of trading.

 

I think the place where we disagree is in how that shift can happen. If a trader can do that for himself, that’s great, I’m all for it. This is obviously your preferred method and the crux of your point “Your Mama Doesn’t Trade… Do Wise Up to Yourself!” But not everyone is able to do it this way. What about those traders? I think that most people who stick with trading are willing to put in the hours and do the hard work. But for some, success is still elusive. It isn’t just a matter of maning up, getting disciplined, trying harder, etc. because they have already tried that and it wasn’t enough. They need some help with their “shift”.

 

Your point about the sharks in this industry is well taken. You got ripped off by a number of people early in your career by various courses, etc. So did I, and so may have most of us. But not all courses and coaches are like that. My mentor was the real thing, and Rande is the real thing. And I’m sure that the traders on this thread have encountered others that are truly helpful. But you are right, it’s hard to sort the wheat from the chafe, and as an industry, it would be better if we had a lot fewer of the chafe.

 

So if we are winding down on this thread, I’ve enjoyed chatting with you. I’ll watch for your comments on other threads.

[Ingot54 13]

Your point about the sharks in this industry is well taken. You got ripped off by a number of people early in your career by various courses, etc. So did I, and so may have most of us. But not all courses and coaches are like that. My mentor was the real thing, and Rande is the real thing. And I’m sure that the traders on this thread have encountered others that are truly helpful. But you are right, it’s hard to sort the wheat from the chafe, and as an industry, it would be better if we had a lot fewer of the chafe.

 

So if we are winding down on this thread, I’ve enjoyed chatting with you. I’ll watch for your comments on other threads.

 

I was going to reply via PM, FxGirl, but I feel I might have over-laboured the point on this thread. Consequently I would like to tone it down a bit, and offer an apology for my size-12 boots stomping all over people who do mean well, and who probably do have good things to offer traders.

 

That includes you, and Rande. My last couple of posts were not kind. and I think my grumpiness has spilled over a bit too much.

 

Would have been nice to have found a good mentor much earlier - at the stage I was willing to pay for such assistance - but today the cynical side of me prohibits paying for such things.

 

You know - "Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me!"

 

And I think George W Bush added a third "fool me" to the adage!

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ux3DKxxFoM]YouTube - President Bush -- Fool me Once[/ame]

 

Thanks for your grace and patience.

[Kiwi 16]

I'd like to recommend two trading books to add to the Ingot54's.

 

Crucial Conversations - Kerry Patterson, et al.

Leadership and Self-Deception - The Arbringer Institute

 

What? They don't sound like trading books. Well, they aren't really.

 

But they are both excellent books for traders because, they address key elements of our lives, which if out of balance are likely to support FxGirl's suspicion that most traders won't be sufficiently self-teaching to overcome the issues that they face in this easiest and most difficult of callings.

 

Also, if you take the learning about self-deception from the second you will gain valuable observational tools for finding the drivers behind your irritating trading issues. Similarly the stories created in crucial conversations exist at every critical moment in your trading. So, if you improve your self-awareness and learn to see and improve the stories you tell yourself you might well find that they are far better books than most available.

 

Good Trading.

[n00btrader 10]

Your point about the sharks in this industry is well taken. You got ripped off by a number of people early in your career by various courses, etc. So did I, and so may have most of us. But not all courses and coaches are like that. My mentor was the real thing, and Rande is the real thing. And I’m sure that the traders on this thread have encountered others that are truly helpful. But you are right, it’s hard to sort the wheat from the chafe, and as an industry, it would be better if we had a lot fewer of the chafe.

 

Hi FXGirl, thank you for your contributions on this thread. Who was your mentor? How do you know Rande is the real thing, and what do you mean by that? Do you think he can cure my discipline issues and inability to follow my rules? I'd honestly like to know.

 

As struggling traders, how do we sort the wheat from the chafe? Aside from their self promotion and testimonials, how do we find facts, statistics, real evidence of success before paying these psychological coaches our hard earned thousands of dollars?

[n00btrader 10]

Would have been nice to have found a good mentor much earlier - at the stage I was willing to pay for such assistance - but today the cynical side of me prohibits paying for such things.

 

Hi Ingot, wonderful thread...thank you for your extensive contributions to help others from your experience. Please do not stop contributing to the thread, you are having a great impact on countless traders in search of help.

 

Regarding the above, would you no longer pay for a good mentor because you have already put in the hard work and time over many years to reach a level where you no longer need one? For someone not as far along this path as yourself, do you believe a good mentor, that costs good money, will not really "shorten the learning curve" for a trader struggling with discipline issues, as Rande and FXGirl suggest? If so, why?

[SIUYA 11]

good point Kiwi - as I guess this boils down to if you are looking for a helping hand, you ideally want it from a good coach that can help issues of self deception - as this to me is often overlooked as to why people dont follow their plan - this is the mamma not holding the hand, the wising up and taking responsibility, the elephant in the room.

failed traders, struggling traders, fat people (its such a great comparison ) all too often lie to themselves about their abilities, their actions and the consequences of those.

Often its not a trading coach you need but a coach that has some experience in trading......

Again, maybe not something for beginners but more for those who have hit a road block.

[Kiwi 16]

Hi FXGirl, thank you for your contributions on this thread. Who was your mentor? How do you know Rande is the real thing, and what do you mean by that? Do you think he can cure my discipline issues and inability to follow my rules? I'd honestly like to know.

 

As struggling traders, how do we sort the wheat from the chafe? Aside from their self promotion and testimonials, how do we find facts, statistics, real evidence of success before paying these psychological coaches our hard earned thousands of dollars?

 

Good question n00b,

 

So far Rande appears to be someone:

- continually promoting themselves here

- selling a book that puts off the answers to later material (the old hook em and drain em)

- mixing a bit of reasonable desensitisation with light hypno called "guided meditation" with, heck, Jungian archetypes with an unusual spin

- probably educated in a different field (not psychology or psychotherapy)

 

I'd be interested to know why FxGirl (who I seem to recall might be Freudian) can claim that he, like Coke, is the real thing.

 

Note that the books recommended above both answer the questions they pose and are both better trading books than Rande's one.

[Rande Howell 10]

Rande, out of curiosity (I don't have a well informed opinion on this subject) I have a question.

 

If you looked at the traders you (or really anyone) mentor as individual trades, how many would hit the profit target and how many would stop out?

 

I have been trading a very long time and my trading improved dramatically as I became comfortable with my setups and that came from screen time. As I continually saw setups work that I didn't take because... fill in the blank - everything from some guy on CNBC saying something to a volume chart in gold to I suddenly had to go to the bathroom, I started to get the picture that the setups were an edge, not a guarantee.

 

The end result was as I became more comfortable with my edge, I questioned it less and I became more successful. Once you are playing with house money, it all becomes much easier.

 

ScottB

 

I work with the organization of the self that the trader brings to the trade, not the trade itself. It is the mindset that a trader brings to the uncertainty of trading that opens or closes the possibility and probability of success or failure. As a trader moves from a fear based mindset that engages uncertainty and moves to a disciplined and impartial mindset that engages uncertainty, he is more relaxed and calm -- and trades far more effectively. It is how you stated it "I have been trading a very long time and my trading improved dramatically as I became comfortable with my setups and that came from screen time.". Essentially, your state of mind moved from fear based to a different state of mind beyond fear -- something you call comfortable.

 

I figure a trader is going to put in a minimum of 5K screen hours to achieve this, all other things being equal. Unfortunately, somewhere between 85-95% of traders lose money for long periods of time. This is the same number that fail at starting a business and fail at losing weight permanently. Until that belief system changes the numbers stay consistent. This is the psychological edge top performers cultivate from atheletes to busness executives to top salesmen. They keep working with their mind. It is the mind that uses the tools of the trade. And that state of mind is built. Add to this that 80% of our population actively medicates anxiety either by legal or illegal methods and you can begin to see how trading is not the problem -- it is the lack of skills and tools that allows them to move beyond the prison of their comfort zone. Most of folks simply avoid this problem, in trading your trading account want let you.

 

If you can do this on your own and have your capital last longer than your learning curve, more power to you. Hang around trading long enough and you will see this this kind of thinking has a cost to it also.

 

Rande Howell

[fajim2004 10]

If I were to hire a coach/conselor the #1 qualification would be that he/she would have to be a

succesful trader to begin with and have a proven track record.

 

As my uncle used to say,Anyone can farm,,,Making money at it is another matter !!

 

 

good point Kiwi - as I guess this boils down to if you are looking for a helping hand, you ideally want it from a good coach that can help issues of self deception - as this to me is often overlooked as to why people dont follow their plan - this is the mamma not holding the hand, the wising up and taking responsibility, the elephant in the room.

failed traders, struggling traders, fat people (its such a great comparison ) all too often lie to themselves about their abilities, their actions and the consequences of those.

Often its not a trading coach you need but a coach that has some experience in trading......

Again, maybe not something for beginners but more for those who have hit a road block.

[MightyMouse 12]

If I were to hire a coach/conselor the #1 qualification would be that he/she would have to be a

succesful trader to begin with and have a proven track record.

 

As my uncle used to say,Anyone can farm,,,Making money at it is another matter !!

 

 

good point Kiwi - as I guess this boils down to if you are looking for a helping hand, you ideally want it from a good coach that can help issues of self deception - as this to me is often overlooked as to why people dont follow their plan - this is the mamma not holding the hand, the wising up and taking responsibility, the elephant in the room.

failed traders, struggling traders, fat people (its such a great comparison ) all too often lie to themselves about their abilities, their actions and the consequences of those.

Often its not a trading coach you need but a coach that has some experience in trading......

Again, maybe not something for beginners but more for those who have hit a road block.

 

I completely disagree with you. You need a coach who can help you as a person achieve your full potential. That coach is more than likely not going to be someone in the trading industry. A coach is someone who can bring out the most in his team.

 

It will be hard enough for you to find a successful trader. Then, you will have to find one who is willing and able to coach.

[n00btrader 10]

My personal experience was that after finding myself losing in trading for some time due to lack of discipline and inability to follow rules, I had a mentor who was a fantastic trader, one of the top 1%. He even gave me his system, money management, rules, the complete proven winning edge, and hours of mentoring. And even with his coaching and mentoring I continually failed to follow the rules and be consistent and disciplined, thus I failed to make any progress. So being a good trader doesn't mean they will be able to help you

 

I find my discipline issues extend to all areas of my life. This is why I am considering a psychological coach.

[MightyMouse 12]

My personal experience was that after finding myself losing in trading for some time due to lack of discipline and inability to follow rules, I had a mentor who was a fantastic trader, one of the top 1%. He even gave me his system, money management, rules, the complete proven winning edge, and hours of mentoring. And even with his coaching and mentoring I continually failed to follow the rules and be consistent and disciplined, thus I failed to make any progress. So being a good trader doesn't mean they will be able to help you

 

 

I find my discipline issues extend to all areas of my life. This is why I am considering a psychological coach.

 

How much did he charge you?

[n00btrader 10]

For the mentoring time, nothing, just to help me at my request. He is not a professional mentor or coach, just a professional trader.

[Rande Howell 10]

Good question n00b,

 

So far Rande appears to be someone:

- continually promoting themselves here

- selling a book that puts off the answers to later material (the old hook em and drain em)

- mixing a bit of reasonable desensitisation with light hypno called "guided meditation" with, heck, Jungian archetypes with an unusual spin

- probably educated in a different field (not psychology or psychotherapy)

 

I'd be interested to know why FxGirl (who I seem to recall might be Freudian) can claim that he, like Coke, is the real thing.

 

Note that the books recommended above both answer the questions they pose and are both better trading books than Rande's one.

 

In the world according to Kiwi, Rande appears about at the level of a used car salesman. In actuality I am a licensed therapist in the state of NC in addition to my peak performance work. As a therapist I specialized in the emotional regulation of anger, fear, and impulse in various populations including violent prisoners in prison, court ordered youth, anxiety disorders over a number of populations. In addition to that I also do pro bono work in my office for folks who can't afford a person like me.

 

Fortunately, I do not live in the world of your opinion. Mine is a very different world where I see myself serving others. Most people will read my book somewhere between 2 and 5 times and quote it to me and thank me for helping them to understand what is actually going on in their mind and emotions. Anyone who believes that a book can change neurally hardwired beliefs that have been embedded into the brain during developmental moments clearly does not understand how human beings evolve into the beings they become. Having worked with change technologies and difficult populations for decades, I have a fairly well grounded idea of what works.

 

Anyone who has gone to a seminar and walked away with a "seminar high" has experienced something similar. The high is a neural pattern has been established and degrades in a few short days or weeks. Then it is back to the old pattern. Books provide head knowledge. Which is good. But changing the habits of the heart requires far more than the knowledge contained in a book. Apparently this is something you believe as possible. When I began reading about Emotional Intelligence and knew this work was game changing, I just didn't read books. I studied under one of the masters of the field. And, yes, I paid good money for that. That cut my learning curve and allowed me to become productive to the people I serve much faster than if I just bumbled along trying to pick up a thing or two over time.

 

If you talked with people I've actually worked with, I believe you would come away with a very different view of my work and its impact. You're very misinformed. Actually it is based on the fundamental human need for connection and cherishment in the context of safety. If a developing human does not get these needs met, their brain organizes them to avoid the pain of that sense of woundedness. Over the years I have developed various methodologies to change the core beliefs that result from such wounding. They have worked with really tough populations and work incredibly well with traders. I know of no one who actually has experienced my work that would call it light weight. Kiwi, your opinions are baffling to me,and, truth is, I have sympathy for you.

 

The archetypal work is fundamental to peak performance. Most traders trade from a position of fear, or what in archetypal terms is called Orphan. In Emotional Intelligence this is called the limbic brain and in particular the amydala. It is in the regulatlion of the fear housed in the limbic system that compassion is then used to actually change the hard wired core belief. In archetypal language that is called the Nurturer. Truth is that most traders beat themselves up when they fail. This has never worked. Simply drives the fear deeper. Compassion is what transfroms the belief system that trades.

 

I either use emotional memory creation or the archetypal language to get at and develop inherent strengths within the self. The emotional memory creation comes out of the time when I debriefed trauma victims for police detectives. They were creating false memories in their debriefings with the victims which got shot up in court. I became the expert witness who could debrief abused children because my methodologies didn't implant memory into the kid's mind. So, Kiwi, you are probably not going to meet to many therapists with the depth of experience I come from.

 

But people with closed opinions don't seek nor acknowledge information that is contrary to their belief. They only look for confirmation of their belief. This is called cognitive dissonance. And until people break out of the prison of their comfort zone, they blame others for what eventually they will have to take responsibilty for. This takes inward courage.

 

What is true, Kiwi, is that my work requires abstract thinking rather than literal thinking. One is not better than the other. They are simply different. And built for different kinds of people. My guess is that you are a nuts and bolts kind of guy and if thinking falls outside of those parameters, it is not a good way of teaching for you. Fortunately for me your judgments are not the ones that I found in New York at Traders Expo. I'll live in that world. Good luck to you.

 

Rande Howell

[Kiwi 16]

OK. So lets take everything you said as true (or at least true in your beliefs).

 

It still doesn't address most of the issues I raised:

 

- you are continually promoting yourself here

- your book doesn't provide answers, instead it keeps promoting the next step (give Rande more money folks)

- probably educated in a different field (licensed therapists include a wide range of skill sets - I do recommend the film "Running with Scissors" for anyone who wants a clear understanding of this)

- the Jungian Archetypes and the committee or your pseudo-scientific phrases but I'll save that for later.

 

My main issues are that you are using the forum for free promotion (glad to see the link is finally gone) and your book is more of the same in the traditional form of NLP'ers like Van Tharp - although a far worse example than his.

 

It saddens me that you would charge for a poorly edited book when you believe: "Anyone who believes that a book can change neurally hardwired beliefs that have been embedded into the brain during developmental moments clearly does not understand how human beings evolve into the beings they become."

 

The two books I referenced are good examples of tools that can achieve rather more than that. In each case the writers have something to promote but they:

a) give the full monte in the book

b) don't shamelessly self-promote throughout and promise to resolve by the end only to disappoint by not answering the question promised but referring to yet another course.

 

Finally I find statements like "and, truth is, I have sympathy for you" to be condescending bs. It does make you sound like a sweet-heart Rande but the continuous self-promotion suggests the snake-oil sweetness.

[n00btrader 10]

If you talked with people I've actually worked with, I believe you would come away with a very different view of my work and its impact.

 

As traders and analysts, we are interested in the facts, numbers, and end results. We would love to see this information, and talk to these traders.

 

1. Exactly how many traders have taken your full course?

 

2. How many went from being unprofitable to profitable as a result?

 

3. Where can we find these traders to talk to them? Are there any that are well known on this forum or other trading forums who would speak up to share their success stories with your coaching?

 

I am simply an interested client, and I am sure anyone else in my position is looking for the same.

[TheNegotiator 13]

As traders and analysts, we are interested in the facts, numbers, and end results. We would love to see this information, and talk to these traders.

 

1. Exactly how many traders have taken your full course?

 

2. How many went from being unprofitable to profitable as a result?

 

3. Where can we find these traders to talk to them? Are there any that are well known on this forum or other trading forums who would speak up to share their success stories with your coaching?

 

I am simply an interested client, and I am sure anyone else in my position is looking for the same.

 

Kiwi & Rande,

 

Both people who for whatever reason, have generously contributed to our forums. Kiwi has been a long time member and has valued opinions. Rande has used his experience and knowledge to construct well thought out posts. We do not allow outright self promotion and Rande has adhered to the changes we have asked him to make. If there are disagreements that is fine. This is an open forum for discussions. However, I will not allow any personal slights or defamation of character. This is a great thread with great content. So wise up or ship out!!

Edited February 28, 2011 by TheNegotiator

[MightyMouse 12]

As traders and analysts, we are interested in the facts, numbers, and end results. We would love to see this information, and talk to these traders.

 

1. Exactly how many traders have taken your full course?

 

2. How many went from being unprofitable to profitable as a result?

 

3. Where can we find these traders to talk to them? Are there any that are well known on this forum or other trading forums who would speak up to share their success stories with your coaching?

 

I am simply an interested client, and I am sure anyone else in my position is looking for the same.

 

Noob,

 

Success in the psychiatric community is very low. Very, very, low. In fact, some of those guys need therapy themselves because they cannot help as many people as they would like. So, a guy that helps 2 out of a hundred is doing pretty well compared to the average guy who helps 1.5 out of 100.

 

Would you want to work with a top person who helps 2 out of 100? 3? 10?

 

MM

[Ingot54 13]

Hi Ingot, wonderful thread...thank you for your extensive contributions to help others from your experience. Please do not stop contributing to the thread, you are having a great impact on countless traders in search of help.

 

Thank you for the encouragement, N00btrader.

 

I have pulled back from the thread because basically I have said what I wanted to. The problem with me is that I get upset when I perceive the topic is being manipulated - whether in reality, or just a perception. Then I ultimately take it personally - back to the person that annoyed me, and back to myself.

 

For me, there are few grey areas when I see truth at stake. Sure - I am an imperfect person, and not Pollyanna54!

 

What I wanted people to understand, is that they CAN do a GREAT DEAL to improve their trading ALL BY THEMSELVES, if they only seriously want to. I have given them the tools, ideas, seeds of thought, and it came from the heart, because I speak from my own pathway.

 

I do not see everything as black-and-white of course - that would be too simplistic. But neither do I see things as needing to be complicated.

 

One of my favourite cynical sayings, is: "Why use 'simple' when 'complicated' is available." It is a wry saying, but there is also a depth of truth in it.

 

I have stopped going to doctors generally speaking, when I am feeling unwell. Why? Because I find that generally, I get better spontaneously. Similarly, I find now that in the modern world, there are a whole lot of "doctors" springing up, willing and offering to 'cure' any and all illnesses.

 

I would invite traders who are truly fair dinkum about turning their trading record around, to seriously apply the principles I have mentioned in my posts, and then come back and tell me their success rate has not improved.

 

I really wish I was in a position to be a coach or mentor for people. I know I would be a good one. I might be wrong about that, but having turned the corner myself, and understanding what I actually did to make that breakthrough, I am confident I can now go on making more discoveries.

 

There is wisdom that is written that says: "You will search, and you will find, when you search with ALL YOUR HEART." That is an adaptation from the Bible, Jeremiah 29: 13.

 

The point is made.

 

Regarding the above' date=' would you no longer pay for a good mentor because you have already put in the hard work and time over many years to reach a level where you no longer need one? For someone not as far along this path as yourself, do you believe a good mentor, that costs good money, will not really "shorten the learning curve" for a trader struggling with discipline issues, as Rande and FXGirl suggest? If so, why?[/quote']

 

I am not in a position to judge Rande or FxGirl on their coaching or counseling skills, N00b, so I have to pass on that part. But I do already know ONE really successful trader. problem is, he would no longer remember me, as I only attended ONE of his free evenings before he moved away from where I lived at the time.

 

Today he has a retreat-style mentoring course, that runs over several weeks, and costs an arm and a leg, and one gonad! He is good - but not because he focuses on psyche issues. His approach is technical - period!

 

So I strongly agree with Rande and FxGirl, that it is indeed possible to 'shorten the learning curve' on the pathway. We differ in HOW that can be achieved. I also believe that those who push the Psychological approach to overcoming negative results, are probably simply including the same things I am promoting anyway.

 

I don't believe you have to be an erudite and experienced academic with a book behind you to coach someone through these things. I believe it is "mutton dressed up as lamb!" meaning that there are other, simpler, cheaper ways to achieve the same thing, without the expense, and without the aura of dealing with someone 'professional' with letters after their name, or a title such as 'Dr."

 

I do not direct this at Rande personally, or FxGirl, but I accept that they will see it differently, and I can live with that difference of opinion. I just do not wish to engage it any longer, and am happy to accept we have some points of agreement, and some of contention.

 

So I will answer your question directly, with that background, and say "yes" - regardless of what level of trading I or you or anyone else has achieved, there is always more to learn about our business, and yes, I believe my own learning curve would have been shortened with the assistance of an honest and caring mentor/coach.

 

I wonder if you have read my Blog? I don't really promote it as anything special, but in that blog, over several weeks earlier this year, I responded to a real person living in the USA, who asked for my help. That Blog is simply a true copy of the emails that passed between us, with his permission.

 

He told me this week that his trading has improved, and here is what he said:

 

"I have traded well these last few weeks ( made good trades )

and I am working on my concentration and emotions.

I think its starting to help and I hope to keep my focus."

 

No doubt "John" will continue to have breakthroughs, but I believe he has 'learned how to learn' now, as have I. I think this is one of the keys.

 

Here is my Blog entry, complete with all of the correspondence. I hope it helps someone.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/blog.php?b=1312

 

Thanks for your question, N00b, and as always - with me you won't get the short answer when the long one is available!

[n00btrader 10]

Noob,

 

Success in the psychiatric community is very low. Very, very, low. In fact, some of those guys need therapy themselves because they cannot help as many people as they would like. So, a guy that helps 2 out of a hundred is doing pretty well compared to the average guy who helps 1.5 out of 100.

 

Would you want to work with a top person who helps 2 out of 100? 3? 10?

 

MM

 

I have no experience with this field, but I am curious, where do these numbers come from? Is there sarcasm here, or are these actual statistics?

 

I would honestly like to know Rande's response to my questions, and what his results look like, and of other well known trading psychology coaches. For charging anywhere from $3,000-$7500, it would sure seem like they would do better than you say.

[MightyMouse 12]

I have no experience with this field, but I am curious, where do these numbers come from? Is there sarcasm here, or are these actual statistics?

 

I would honestly like to know Rande's response to my questions, and what his results look like, and of other well known trading psychology coaches. For charging anywhere from $3,000-$7500, it would sure seem like they would do better than you say.

 

Noob,

 

People go to psychologists for years and years Most never overcome their issue. A lot never even get to fully understand their issue. Probably for most, the only issue is that they think there is an issue and there isn't.

 

I don't have real stats, but it is very difficult to measure success in that field. Sorry that I do not have more concrete data. Maybe Rande would like to share.

[TheNegotiator 13]

I'd like to make a quick point about this whole can a trader psychologist/therapist type help and are they worth the kind of money some will charge. I think many people search the internet trying to fix their trading problems. When they see seasoned veterans talking about how trading is perhaps 90% about what's in your head they think to themselves, well I better spend time/money/effort on that as that's the biggest part of trading. Mistake. If you don't know the rules of poker, whether you are a mind reader and a superb bluffer or not, you ain't gonna win a lot. I think psychology is absolutely key to long term trading success, but only after you have completed a number of qualifying steps in your trading journey.