Your Mama Doesn't Trade ... So Wise Up to Yourself!

[Edu4rdo 10]

Every time I hear someone recommend a good trading book - out trot the old chestnuts ... Mark Douglas, Van K Tharpe, Brett Steenbarger, Janice Dorn, Curtis faith, Rick Bookstabber and even Jack Schwager ... all come out as "the best book I ever read" ... or ... "the book I would recommend first."

 

But do these books really make a difference? Can anything we read really make a difference to how we approach trading? Is the "Psychology of Trading" a legitimate therapy for traders, or just a convenient add-on, taken up by Psychologists and Psycho=therapists who want to cash in on yet another field ripe for the picking?

 

I have certainly read my share of good books - and I have even recommended a few at times too. But I am yet to meet one trader whose trading success is down to the efforts of Psychological intervention in their approach to trading.

 

Sure, there are those who swear by NLP, but there are also those who have received zero assistance from this therapy too. And I can tell you that through my 2 readings of each of "Trading in the Zone" and "Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom", I have to say that I can not, today, remember any single piece of instruction from either, that has lifted my trading to another level.

 

I think it might be time to take a second look at this industry.

 

We are so indoctrinated these days to think - "It's not your fault. You were emotionally damaged as a child. You need to have some therapy to deal with your demons, and then you will be fine," that we lose sight of the fact that real men have "true grit".

 

Think about it - did your daddy or your mummy solve their head problems through going to a shrink ... reading books, 230 sessions with a psychologist? ... or did they just get on with it, and knuckle down and deal with things as they came?

 

Look, I am not saying that there are not real cases where issues of confidence or procrastination, impulse and so on can be helped by having someone more experienced to bounce ideas off. Of course such situations exist, and of course professionals might have some sort of role in that.

 

But for goodness sakes, why do we always tend to blame our damaged psychology every time we stuff it up in executing our trades?

 

It's wrong, in my view. And to put it as bluntly as I can, I think it is time traders found some balls. It is time to accept responsibility for our own failure to maintain commitment and consistency - otherwise known as (you guessed it - the most clichéed and least understood word in trading) ... D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E.

 

Face it - if you can not handle the markets you trade, then it is probably likely that you lack a half-proper trading plan, strategy, money management and strict WRITTEN rules. Or you are attempting to trade with insufficient capital, too much leverage, the wrong instrument for your personality and risk profile, or the wrong timeframe.

 

Have you EVER seriously looked at those issues, instead of running off to read the latest "self-help" guru's offering? I'll wager right now that 95% of traders on this site do NOT have a Written Trading Plan ... a number that strangely coincides with the same number of traders that fail to make any profits in the markets!!

 

The next thing a mature trading approach might call for, is to study ONE instrument, in ONE time frame and MASTER that single entity, before attempting to move on to other situations.

 

What I am getting at here, is that we really need to STOP navel-gazing, and STOP wondering if there is some elusive demon driving our trading decisions.

 

Instead, why not spend some time actually getting to really KNOW the market you are attempting to trade, and stop being like a butterfly and jumping from one bright flower to the next. Stop hoping that the trading idea of the century is just one more system/strategy/signal service/indicator or different instrument away.

 

You mother doesn't trade - stop expecting someone to do it all for you. Get some cojones and get serious about some decent learning effort. Stop the wishing and the yearning. Learn to master your market.

 

Now there's a good topic for a book!

 

The best advice I have gotten. I really think your article is more useful than a lot of trading books I have read until now. Thank you very much...

Eduardo

[FXGirl 10]

Dear Ingot54:

 

As a woman, I don’t feel the need to find some balls, get some cojones, nor show I have the ‘nads to succeed as a trader. However, I do get your point that you and you alone are responsible for your trading success or failure.

 

I think you and agree on some important points, to be a successful trader: I do have to have clear, specific rules for entry, exit, stop-loss, and money management. I do have to be able to consistently execute my trading plan. I do have to manage my emotions in a way that supports my trading goals. And I must recognize that I, and no one else, am responsible for my trading decisions.

 

I do feel that learning to trade requires great effort, commitment, and persistence. Each person responds to this challenge differently based on his/her skills, experience and personality. There is no one right way. It is silly to characterize those looking for help as looking for “hand holdin”. Trading is a complex skill. Why wouldn’t a beginner/intermediate trader want to get some help and guidance? Do you think that Yo Yo Ma said, just give me the cello and I’ll figure it out myself? I have no quarrel with those who read books, attend seminars, take courses, or work with coaches. I just hope they find the books, seminars, courses, and coaches that are truly valuable. As you have pointed out, there is a lot of junk/hype out there – but that doesn’t mean that there are no good ones. You don’t have to do it on your own…unless, for some obscure reason, you prefer to make your learning curve as long as possible.

 

However, I do think that there is no substitute for time in front of the charts. And only you can give that to yourself. This is the only way to develop the subconscious pattern recognition skill (intuition) that is the hallmark of an accomplished trader. Just as Tiger Woods had to practice his swing again and again, a trader has to see a pattern (and all of it permutations) again and again to make it his own.

 

Just as there is no substitute for time in front of the charts, there is no substitute for developing the emotional management skills needed to be successful. By your own admission, Ingot, you still struggle with impulsivity after all these years. Just finding “some balls” may not be the most effective strategy to curb impulsive trading. As you have pointed out, if you keep doing the same thing, you’ll keep getting the same result. Smart traders find someone like Rande (who, by the way, really knows his stuff) to help them try something different.

 

As you have said, some people do seem to have to be “at the end of an emotional tether” before they do the internal work. Others recognize the emotional pinch much sooner, are proactive and make changes before they reach the end of the tether. As a psychologist, I disagree that “ONLY when you are SO disgusted with your situation…when you are totally at your limit of frustration…you will find the drive to do what you HAVE to do”. There are other motivations, some much more powerful than disgust or frustration, to help you move towards excellence.

[Ingot54 13]

As a woman' date=' I don’t feel the need to find some balls, get some cojones, nor show I have the ‘nads to succeed as a trader.[/quote']

 

Thank you for your input FXGirl. I make no apology for using the politically incorrect male gender. I use it because I am 'Aulde Schoole' and simply will NOT be forced to use the Politically Correct "their" or "he-slash-she." My intention was not to isolate female traders - some of whom I regard as perhaps having better trading abilities than many males - but to simply dispense with political correctness and get to the bones of my topic.

 

So can we put aside anatomy, grammar and social engineering, and stay with the topic?

 

It is silly to characterize those looking for help as looking for “hand holdin”. Trading is a complex skill. Why wouldn’t a beginner/intermediate trader want to get some help and guidance? Do you think that Yo Yo Ma said, just give me the cello and I’ll figure it out myself? I have no quarrel with those who read books, attend seminars, take courses, or work with coaches. I just hope they find the books, seminars, courses, and coaches that are truly valuable. As you have pointed out, there is a lot of junk/hype out there – but that doesn’t mean that there are no good ones. You don’t have to do it on your own…unless, for some obscure reason, you prefer to make your learning curve as long as possible.

 

That is a bit absurd, and I don't recall alluding to anything like that.

 

I have certainly read my share of good books - and I have even recommended a few at times too. But I am yet to meet one trader whose trading success is down to the efforts of Psychological intervention in their approach to trading.

 

That was from the third paragraph of my FIRST post to the thread.

 

I am unsure if you read all my posts' date=' or just skimmed through picking up points of contention. But I seem to recall purposely mentioning that these have their place. What my point is, in all of this thread, is that there is [u']AN ENTIRE INDUSTRY[/u] feeding off the hopes and fears of people who should never be involved in trading in the first place, and that as Psychologists, Authors, Coaches, mentors, those folks have a DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY to weed these out from the outset.

 

I could argue a VERY good case for the intervention of Psychologists, and you could have done this better than I can, but I'll take a shot at it:

 

1) Psychologists are best suited to assess the mental aptitude of an aspiring trader, and advise accordingly whether to stick to the Cello lessons, or get stuck into trading financial markets. I would put this assessment into the class of "Trading Personality Profile".

 

2) Psychologists could offer serious guidance to would-be traders, concerning their RISK PROFILE, attitudes to speculation, money, loss, and whether the trader truly grasps what "Trading for a Living" really involves. The images of Yachts and Ferarri's should be long gone before a would-be trader ever gets near a chart. Someone has to tell it like it is - to separate the dreams from the reality.

 

By your own admission' date=' Ingot, you still struggle with impulsivity after all these years. Just finding “some balls” may not be the most effective strategy to curb impulsive trading. As you have pointed out, if you keep doing the same thing, you’ll keep getting the same result. Smart traders find someone like Rande (who, by the way, really knows his stuff) to help them try something different.[/quote']

 

I have already covered this item in TWO places, FXGirl - and I am not impressed with your quoting what I said well out of its context:

 

Look' date=' I am not saying that there are not real cases where issues of confidence or procrastination, impulse and so on can be helped by having someone more experienced to bounce ideas off. Of course such situations exist, and of course professionals might have some sort of role in that.[/quote']

 

and

 

I can tell you that I have some issues to overcome - and one of them is ... IMPULSE! The way I overcame that' date=' is to follow my written trading plan. You can NOT enter an impulse trade if you are following a trading plan to the letter.[/quote']

 

That was from my SECOND post on the thread - I did indeed say that I have an issue to overcome - or in the vernacular - a monkey on my back. I then went on to say how I overcame the problem: ... follow my written trading plan. You can NOT enter an impulse trade if you are following a trading plan to the letter.

 

You will note that I did not need to seek out a Psychologist, such as the one you mentioned (Rande). No. I WAS INDEED able to isolate the cause of my problem, by becoming thoroughly FED UP, and DISGUSTED with myself, and my situation.

 

As you have said' date=' some people do seem to have to be “at the end of an emotional tether” before they do the internal work. Others recognize the emotional pinch much sooner, are proactive and make changes before they reach the end of the tether.[/quote']

 

I have to respectfully disagree again with you, FXGirl.

 

It has been my experience that most people - traders included - will NOT take the necessary action to make changes, until they have blown a few accounts. Some might - MOST will not. It is only when driven to desperation by repeated failure to handle the markets, or by an exasperated spouse fed up with the non-materialisation of the promised wealth as per the advertising and as per the dream of "trading for a living" that the failing trader is driven to action.

 

Even the break-down of the marital relationship is still not enough for some traders - they would prefer to remain with their folly - perhaps a fair exchange for a disappointed and nagging spouse, for some. It has to come from PERSONAL desperation, and not the frustration of anyone else emotionally close to them. Yes - even that person's frustration is not enough for some would-be traders.

 

By the way - I define "trader" as someone who has "OCCUPATION: Trader" printed on their income tax statement by the IRS or National Taxation Authority in individual countries (ATO in Australia). It means the person earns the major portion of their income through trading activities.

 

Even the tag "trader" does NOT apply to me, even though I would like to think I am a trader.

 

As a psychologist' date=' I disagree that “ONLY when you are SO disgusted with your situation…when you are totally at your limit of frustration…you will find the drive to do what you HAVE to do”.[/quote']

 

See above for response to that.

 

There are other motivations' date=' some much more powerful than disgust or frustration, to help you move towards excellence.[/quote']

 

Ok - I look forward to these "other motivations, more powerful than disgust or frustration, to help you move towards excellence" that apply to a trader. Please post a list of these "more powerful emotions" that apply to traders, seeing it is traders we are most concerned with in this thread, and the abuse of them by an unregulated "support industry."

 

I can tell you that I have taken care in everything I wrote, specifically NOT to put down any individual, and at all times, if you read my posts, I have taken care to be inclusive - eg I have said that there is a place for Psychologists, and I have now given a few examples above.

 

The whole point of this very wordy thread now, is that the SUPPORTIVE INDUSTRY that has grown up around servicing traders, can be summarised as follows:

 

A proliferation of books and courses, complete with colorfully-presented work-book, and "7 DVD" (or 12 or 16 ... just think of a number) written by "Professionals" who are trained in Psychology or Psychotherapy (or not - just write a book and set yourself up), NLP, and other techniques, none of which have THE SPECIFIC answer, although the authors would like to think and perhaps state that the book will achieve this end. IT won't , and furthermore, no such specific book exists that will achieve a solution to the problems faced by traders.

 

I do not say that "no course exists" because clearly there ARE courses ... but they are priced at several thousand dollars, and while this may represent a short-cut - it still does not guarantee success for any trader. The industry is littered with complaints that traders can not trade successfully, even after completing "XYZ" course for "$X,000.00".

 

As pointed out by Simonyadig in post #8 ... it is all a part of the solution to the puzzle. But the puzzle persists, doesn't it. If the puzzle was solved by one particular book, Course, Psychologist, Coach, System etc, then the problem would cease to exist.

 

The problem is not the markets as much as it is the SUPPORT INDUSTRY that feeds off the failure of people who either want their hand held so that they can "trade for a living", or who are too bone lazy to get out of their recliner chairs, and get right down to business, writing out THEIR personal trading plan.

 

Most people point to the wonder books written by Mark Douglas. Nowhere did I say that they were less than useful. What I have been consistently saying is that the industry is at fault. Nowhere is the problem seriously addressed and dealt with.

 

The support industry is like the medical and pharmaceutical industries - they are not serious about cure or changing the habits of their clientele. Indeed, if people took responsibility for their own dietary needs and fitness needs, there would be NO CRISIS in health-care in ANY country, excluding perhaps countries where such educational assistance is NOT available readily.

 

So what I am saying is that the medical and pharmaceutical industries RELY on repeat business. They have NO vested interest in getting their clients "well" again. Too much money is at stake, and it is exactly the same in the trading support industry - they seriously do NOT want to solve the problems - else traders would be singing their praises, and solutions would soon be common knowledge,

 

They are NOT. And if they truly DID want to solve these problems, the statistic remains that they are impotent to make a scratch on them.

 

Now, if a trader came to me and said: "Here is my written trading plan, and here is my journal of trading. Here is my money management plan, and here is how I apply my written plan to the "NNN" markets, in "MMM" time-frame etc." I think if I was a seriously caring trading coach - it might be possible to get the trader on the right track in about 2 hours flat! Who really knows - but the fact that the plan exists in written form is a very strong indication that here is a seriously motivated trader, who is ready emotionally for assistance.

 

At this point I would say to the trader - let's go through ONE live trade with you, and see how you apply your written strategy. That would be an excellent starting point, to diagnose some problems. I am neither a coach, mentor, psychologist (though I have raised children ) so I would need to revert to my own problem-solving strategy.

 

I invite further input from you here, FXGirl. Perhaps we can come to an understanding, or perhaps the outcome of a discussion could move the opportunity for problem-solving for traders, another step forward. I have no issue with your disagreeing with anything I have said - this is a lively forum, and fresh ideas are welcomed.

 

I maintain full respect for you, even though we disagree on points.

 

And I thank you for bothering to put your case in such a rational manner.

 

My point stands - that of traders needing to begin to accept responsibility for their own failure, and rid themselves of the "please-mother-me" attitude - an attitude that should perhaps have been dealt with by the time they were 13 years of age! And it is high time someone pointed out the failure of the trading industry to effectively make one scrap of difference to the fabled statistic, that "95% of traders fail."

 

While that statistic stands, so does my case, and no amount of argument will change that ... in my view.

[Rande Howell 10]

Rande,

 

Perhaps you could enlighten all of us here about some of the beliefs that are sabotaging

a lot of us traders. On the surface excecuting a simple written trade plan should not be

difficult,yet many of us are unable too do

 

This is a great topic for focus. I'm going to answer here, but I am also going to start a new thread on it also. The first problem is that trading is in many ways is a very unnatural environment for the brain to negotiate. The brain is constantly attempting to produce certainty in a world that is uncertain in its nature. This bias toward certainty closes down the kind of probability mindset that trading demands. What that looks like in trading is trying to predict what the market will do rather than take avantage of what the market is willing to give you. And the trader experiences fear of loss or exhileration of winning rather than the ebb and flow of probability.

 

The second piece of this problem is that uncertainty becomes fused to worry and fear. Uncertainty then becomes synonomous with worry and fear. This is a particular wiring that has to be de-constructed and rebuilt so that uncertainty can be dealt with from more empowered emotions and states of mind. It's not going to change just because you say so though. Changing neurally hardwired beliefs is not easy, just ask any dieter or recovering alchoholic. To our ancestors, uncertainty was a bad thing. And our brain evolved to jump to conclusions because any explanation was better than staying in the confusion that uncertainty can cause. To the ancient brain any explanation is better than confusion. This wiring of perception is downright dangerous in trading.

 

The second part is that in facing your psychological demons, we have a bias to look outside the self to assign blame and responsibility. I actually have traders put a mirror near their screens so they can see themselves and hold themselves responsible for the mindset that is being reflected back at them. At the core of poor performance (assuming competency in methodology) are self limiting beliefs rooted in a sense of inadequacy (not good enough), a sense of not mattering (must win to prove myself), a sense of not being worthy (having to prove your value as human by your performance), and of powerlessness. The value of a human being becomes externally validated (trading performance) rather than a reflection of his current skill level.

 

Skills is something that can be improved and mistakes show you where you need to improve -- rather than being a reflection of the self. But it is both biologically and psychlogically easier to deceive ourselves and project blame and responsibility to the outside world. We even develop personas, handles, and other cover ups to mask our deepest fears rather than confront them. The problem is that if they stay hidden, they will continue to sabotage your trading and trading account.

 

When you are experiencing a fear of loss, a fear of pulling the trigger, a fear of not being right (perfectionism), a fear of loss while in a trade, or are beating yourself up after a loss -- you are experiencing the deeper fear based beliefs outlined above. Your brain's adaptation to them has produced a familiar pattern of belief that has hijacked your thinking.

 

Trading becomes a mirror to the deepest sense of self. But you do have to develop the courage to confront the inner garbage that has taken up residence in your belief system and rigorously change your beliefs about self. Traders can take many years wandering around in the wilderness before they really begin looking at themselves rigorously and realizing that it is their beliefs that are trading. This is when they come to the motivation to re-invent their beliefs. Most traders come to develop a deeper sense of their spiritulality to do this. This is where you move from a sense of self that uses external validation to determine their value (cars, houses, etc) to sense of self that is grounded in a sense of worth beyond their understanding and found inwardly.

 

 

Rande Howell

[fajim2004 10]

I have throughly read both Mark Douglas books and have even purchased his weekend

seminar "Paths to Consistancy" What Douglas advocates to change the pattern of fear and

greed to eliminate hesitation is too take a simple trading strategy and force yourself to execute this strategy 20 times. You are not allowed to change or modify the rules until you

have completed all 20 trades. As for myself I completed more than 20 trades using a simple

intraday trading strategy that more than likely would result in either a small loss or profit just

to do the exercise. The result of my trading was that I ended the series with a small profit.

 

Although I could say that I successfully completed the excercise and turned a small profit

what I actually was doing was doing was keeping myself so focused entering and moving

stops that my mind did not have any time to dwell on other thoughts. This was not my style

of trading.

 

My conclusion is that if your managing a position trade or swing trading this leaves the mind

more than ample amount of time to second guess your written trading plan. After all, we all know that there is always ample opportunties out there.Why not add a position on a retracement of trend while were sitting here. After all it fits right into our original trading plan doesn't it ??

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, when Mark Douglas advocated “Discipline” as per his title, did he allude to Consistency in Application of a Written Strategy/Plan, and Commitment to following that plan? I honestly can not remember, and if he did, then I probably will not have much to take issue with.

[fajim2004 10]

Mr. Howell,

 

I would like to ask you a question about something that has

always been floating around in the back of my mind. Aside

from myself I am sure others here would be interested in

your reply.

 

Lets just say a person had developed a simple trading strategy

that was highly profitable yet required that it be monitored and

traded throughout the day. This individual also had a very good

day job that he or she did want want to give up and could also

not trade effectively while at work. This I am sure is a common

dilema for most traders.

 

Why not just hire and train someone to monitor and execute

your trades according to your written trading plan.Being an

employee the person would have a vested interest in executing

the trading plan as specified.

[Ingot54 13]

I have throughly read both Mark Douglas books and have even purchased his weekend seminar "Paths to Consistancy"

 

What Douglas advocates to change the pattern of fear and greed to eliminate hesitation is too take a simple trading strategy and force yourself to execute this strategy 20 times. You are not allowed to change or modify the rules until you have completed all 20 trades.

 

As for myself I completed more than 20 trades using a simple intraday trading strategy that more than likely would result in either a small loss or profit just to do the exercise. The result of my trading was that I ended the series with a small profit.

 

Although I could say that I successfully completed the excercise and turned a small profit what I actually was doing was doing was keeping myself so focused entering and moving stops that my mind did not have any time to dwell on other thoughts. This was not my style of trading.

 

Well done Fajim2004, on taking the initiative, and following through with a plan. That is exactly what I advocate - HAVING A PLAN ... and having it WRITTEN DOWN so that there can be NO room for bias, second guessing, or taking trades that are NOT in the scope of the plan.

 

As for your "Paths to Consistency" Seminar, I have no opinion, because I have not attended it. I would be interested though, in due course, to hear back from you about how you found the course - and how your trading is going 3 months after completing the seminar. I do not know - you might be well on your way to financial independence by then, and indeed "trading for a living."

 

Just one 2 1/2 day workshop @ $600 may be all anybody needs. It seems to be excellent value compared to the many thousands charged by other professionals.

 

I have not heard any feedback from anyone who has actually completed this seminar, so I might be missing something. Maybe your results will be what is required to convert me to the idea that a single workshop can turn traders from loss-to-profit.

 

However, my original contention still stands - here are the rhetorical questions I pose:

 

* Can any course substitute for a trader taking responsibility for their own trading results?

* Can a trader succeed without having a written trading plan?

* Is the absence of a written trading plan the "missing link" ?

* Does the "Support Industry" (set up to service the failing trader) really have the answers, given the so-called statistical failure rate of traders as 95% ?

* Can the inability of traders to breakthrough and truly "trade for a living" be addressed by one $600 - $3500 - $7000 - course?

* Is the true value of the material received by the trader reflected in the cost?

* Can a trader really help themselves, through the application of home-grown and common garden consistency?

* Do traders coming into the industry really understand what "trading for a living" involves, and what kind of life "trading for a living" will actually deliver to them?

*Do would-be traders entering the industry possess the personality attributes and risk profile, suited to speculating in financial markets?

 

And some non-rhetorical questions:

 

* Why do 95% of would-be traders fail to reach their goals, and indeed leave the industry with disappointment and busted accounts?

* Why have these statistics stood for so long, given the massive support industry available to traders?

* Are "psychological issues" the real reason traders are failing? (I think that one is rhetorical )

 

... and my favorites:

 

* Whatever happened to common sense?

* Why is it traders can take responsibility for mowing the lawn, and paying the utility bills, but won't take responsibility for their own trading activity?

* Why do traders think that if they just get the right entry/strategy/system and so on, that they will over come their problems with losing? Could it be that this is what is fed to them by an industry with a vested interest in keeping them thinking that?

* Why do traders take expensive courses, and attend expensive sessions with "counselors and coaches" (which I did to no avail) instead of trying the easy things, like writing out a strict approach, based on rules and situations?

* Why do traders jump from Equities to Indices, to Forex to Futures. eMinis, Options, and then try to scalp, then swing trade, then try another system and so on, instead of FOCUSING and COMMITTING to a WRITTEN PLAN with DETERMINATION and CONSISTENCY?

 

 

Fajim2004

 

The above was not specifically addressed to you, and is not personal. It is a general summary of the general situation that exists across the trading industry.

 

For you to take the seminar with Mark Douglas is a commendable thing.

 

My only comment about attending such a seminar, is that you must already have failed to make the breakthrough by following your written plan, and been unable to focus on your traded instrument to the required degree.

 

"Failing to make a breakthrough" is not something to hide or be ashamed of - I am certain 100% of traders have experienced this, and many are STILL suffering it.

 

"Doing something about it", on the other hand IS something to be proud of.

 

I look forward to your feedback - perhaps my rigidity on this issue can be bent.

[FXGirl 10]

Dear Ingot:

 

Sorry, I should have written LOL after my rant on balls, cajones, etc. I don’t have a problem with your colorful language. Nor do I disagree with your premise that you and you alone are responsible for your trading outcome – that is your premise isn’t it? I think where we part ways is in the amount and type of help a trader should seek along the way.

 

Let me emphasize that I agree with you about the quality of offerings of many (but not all) in the trading industry – they simply aren’t worth the time and effort to sign up, let alone the money they charge. Certainly any of those that discount the time and effort needed to learn to trade and exaggerated the financial rewards are in this category. However, I do think that there are a few out there that truly can be helpful; the difficulty is for the new trader to identify them.

 

Although you were able to solve your impulse problem by following a written trading plan (and no one should trade without a set of clear rules), for some that isn’t sufficient. Even when they have a clear, concise trading plan, they still continue to take impulse trades. When that is the case, cutting the apron strings with your mother or getting a set of balls isn’t enough. It’s more complicated than that. But you knew that.

 

Although some people do need to reach “disgust” before they start to make the necessary changes in their lives, not everyone uses that path. It’s dangerous to generalize from your own experience (or those of a group of people) and assume that this is the best way or only way change can happen. I’m sure you can see that someone who’s internal dialogue is “I’m so disgusted with myself” has different emotional architecture than someone who’s internal dialogue is “I know I can do better” in response to the same situation.

 

And while you suggest that the proper place for psychologists is to “assess the mental aptitude of an aspiring trader”. I don’t think that there is a “Trading Personality Profile”. Sure, some people are more risk adverse than others, or more prone to making impulsive decisions, etc., but anything that isn’t hardwired is modifiable, so unless you have a brain function problem (brain damage or AD as examples), you can probably become a competent trader if you are willing to do the work and have the proper guidance.

 

The problem for all of us in terms of making changes is that we can identify what we are unhappy about, but have a more difficult time identifying the underlying assumptions and rules we have taken on that keep us stuck. It’s like the old question, “Does a fish know it’s swimming in water?” And even when we have an idea of our underlying psychological architecture, it’s still difficult to create a new reality and act on it. And this is where a trading psychologist can be of help.

 

The human psyche is incredibly complex, which is why you won’t see one book, one article, or one course on trading psychology that reaches everyone. If you read Brett Steenbarger’s excellent book, The Daily Trading Coach, 101 Lessons for Becoming Your Own Trading Psychologist, found those exercises that related to your trading issues, and then actually did what he suggests consistently for a long enough time to change your behavior, you might get great benefit from his book. The problem is that many people can’t seem do this; they need more personalized, in-depth help. Again, this is where a trading psychologist can be of help. You can struggle for years on your own, or you can get help, get it fixed, and get on with making money.

 

Oh, yes, Ingot, I almost forgot. Any idea where that 95% failure statistic came from?

 

P. S. My income tax occupation is “trader”.

[MightyMouse 12]

Dear Ingot54:

 

As a woman, I don’t feel the need to find some balls, get some cojones, nor show I have the ‘nads to succeed as a trader. However, I do get your point that you and you alone are responsible for your trading success or failure.

 

I think you and agree on some important points, to be a successful trader: I do have to have clear, specific rules for entry, exit, stop-loss, and money management. I do have to be able to consistently execute my trading plan. I do have to manage my emotions in a way that supports my trading goals. And I must recognize that I, and no one else, am responsible for my trading decisions.

 

I do feel that learning to trade requires great effort, commitment, and persistence. Each person responds to this challenge differently based on his/her skills, experience and personality. There is no one right way. It is silly to characterize those looking for help as looking for “hand holdin”. Trading is a complex skill. Why wouldn’t a beginner/intermediate trader want to get some help and guidance? Do you think that Yo Yo Ma said, just give me the cello and I’ll figure it out myself? I have no quarrel with those who read books, attend seminars, take courses, or work with coaches. I just hope they find the books, seminars, courses, and coaches that are truly valuable. As you have pointed out, there is a lot of junk/hype out there – but that doesn’t mean that there are no good ones. You don’t have to do it on your own…unless, for some obscure reason, you prefer to make your learning curve as long as possible.

 

However, I do think that there is no substitute for time in front of the charts. And only you can give that to yourself. This is the only way to develop the subconscious pattern recognition skill (intuition) that is the hallmark of an accomplished trader. Just as Tiger Woods had to practice his swing again and again, a trader has to see a pattern (and all of it permutations) again and again to make it his own.

 

Just as there is no substitute for time in front of the charts, there is no substitute for developing the emotional management skills needed to be successful. By your own admission, Ingot, you still struggle with impulsivity after all these years. Just finding “some balls” may not be the most effective strategy to curb impulsive trading. As you have pointed out, if you keep doing the same thing, you’ll keep getting the same result. Smart traders find someone like Rande (who, by the way, really knows his stuff) to help them try something different.

 

As you have said, some people do seem to have to be “at the end of an emotional tether” before they do the internal work. Others recognize the emotional pinch much sooner, are proactive and make changes before they reach the end of the tether. As a psychologist, I disagree that “ONLY when you are SO disgusted with your situation…when you are totally at your limit of frustration…you will find the drive to do what you HAVE to do”. There are other motivations, some much more powerful than disgust or frustration, to help you move towards excellence.

 

If in fact you did grow the "set" we could then refer to you as the trader formerly known as FX Girl.

[Ingot54 13]

Any idea where that 95% failure statistic came from?

 

P. S. My income tax occupation is “trader”.

 

FXGirl

 

I humbly thank you for your generous response. The way you have phrased your points can not be reproached, and when I think over my own path, I have to say that your illustration of why "one size does NOT fit all" has caused me to reflect quite a bit on this issue.

 

While my illustration of cutting apron strings does serve a purpose - eg getting traders to think about 'blaming' as opposed to 'learning'; 'focus' instead of 'flippancy' and 'determination' instead of 'depression' - I am compelled to agree with you that not all traders come under such a broad umbrella.

 

While I do not wish to attack any individual, or their personal business model or practice - to do so would be quite unfair from the hidden cover of a nomme de plume - my rant is designed to wake traders up to the reality that trading is, and move them from their collective backsides (in as gentle a way as possible, which is impossible).

 

For too long I was just like the traders I describe - looking for the next best thing - scouring the Internet, forums and so on, downloading indicators (some of which I have retained) and even purchased 5 systems from reputable people - all good.

 

That alone paints a picture of me - searching, but expecting the answer to be outside of myself. Then it hit me - "stop looking for a crutch - start looking at your own trades."

 

(I can not say why "it hit me" - perhaps it was as a result of 7 years of serious study of all that I can find written about trading - don't know.)

 

From there it was just a matter of writing down what I do, and then the realisation came that I was not even able to stick to my own written rules. Indeed, I discovered my own impulsivity, based on many things eg a desire to be in a trade when there was none, and kidding myself that what I was doing was "based on my rules!"

 

What I described is what I call "coming to the end of my tether" or, "being disgusted with my approach and attitude." So while I may come across as belligerent on this, the truth is that I have not long discovered the breakthrough - thus my desire to foist the idea on others who also struggle.

 

I want to shake traders free, to cause them to look within at their reasons for not taking responsibility - rather than looking to a psychologist as a first stop on their shopping list, and instead, actually do what Fajim2004 did, and APPLY a written strategy.

 

Whether anyone actually takes it on board or not - I may never know - I hope they do, because it is one very powerful "fix" for many of the issues besetting troubled traders.

 

On the other hand - you have unraveled me a little with your rationality - indeed I do see that there are more ways to skin a cat. It may yet transpire that my way is not the panacaea, or the efficacious approach. Trading is indeed complex, and I agree there is no universal approach that is tailored to all persons. But I have to stick to my assertion, that unless certain things are attended to, out of a sense of responsibility, no amount of hand-holding by coaches or others, will address the need.

 

With regard to your question above - I first read the statistic in about 2005 I think, and saved this link from that discussion:

 

http://www.travismorien.com/FAQ/trading/futradersuccess.htm

 

The author quotes 4 studies that allude to the statistic holding up. More than that I am unable to define a source.

 

PS - I congratulate you for belonging to the top 5%. I think I am at about 6% but I am aiming for the top 2% ... whatever that means!

[fajim2004 10]

Ingot, I did not actually attend the seminar. I purchased it from his website. I don't believe that it matters if you are there or not. Only the information that was presented is what matters. Mark

Douglas has not written any books or has otherwise held himself as a consultant for years.

As to getting my monies worth.I would have to say I did. Did I become instantly profitable? For that I would have to say no. Has it helped my trading ? For that I would have to say the jury is still out.

 

The value that I feel that I did recieve was having somone with a somewhat different opinion on trading. There are many nuances that I was not aware of that came out in this seminar.One

of them was talking about peak preformance.As an example Most people are unable to focus objectively for

long periods of time. Douglas found there are many people that can only trade profitably for a

couple of hours a day.Something I am exploring myself

 

 

 

As for your "Paths to Consistency" Seminar, I have no opinion, because I have not attended it. I would be interested though, in due course, to hear back from you about how you found the course - and how your trading is going 3 months after completing the seminar. I do not know - you might be well on your way to financial independence by then, and indeed "trading for a living."

 

Just one 2 1/2 day workshop @ $600 may be all anybody needs. It seems to be excellent value compared to the many thousands charged by other professionals.

 

I have not heard any feedback from anyone who has actually completed this seminar, so I might be missing something. Maybe your results will be what is required to convert me to the idea that a single workshop can turn traders from loss-to-profit.

[fajim2004 10]

And some non-rhetorical questions:

Well Ingot I"ll put in my 2 cents worth.I became interested in trading stocks nearly 40 years ago and quickly became interested in commodity trading. At that time there were only a couple of ways to communicate. Books,newsletters,mail and phone service. Since then hand held calculator and the wonder of the internet came about. Also needs to mention that before that even back in the 70's before deregulation a R/T trade would probably cost $40 bucks. Obviously people didn't day trade back then. Back then the general mentality was to learn as much about the marketsas possible. After all those with the most knowledge should win right ? Didn't happen, and I strongly belive if records were available for trading accounts 100 years ago they would reflect the same.

As for myself I can execute my trading plan like a pro for a month or so only to give it all back in less than a

week by trading outside my plan. Always seem to find additional opportunities outside my trading plan.Perhaps I am over educated in technical analysis? Guess its just a mind game I haven't figured out.

 

 

* Why do 95% of would-be traders fail to reach their goals, and indeed leave the industry with disappointment and busted accounts?

* Why have these statistics stood for so long, given the massive support industry available to traders?

* Are "psychological issues" the real reason traders are failing? (I think that one is rhetorical )

[SIUYA 11]

your questions and my two cents IN CAPITALS (Not that i am yelling).....

 

* Can any course substitute for a trader taking responsibility for their own trading results?

NO

* Can a trader succeed without having a written trading plan?

YES... A TRADING PLAN OFFEN GIVES FORMALITY AND REAL THOUGHT TO A SYSTEM, BUT ITS NOT ESSENTIAL. SOME PEOPLE DONT HAVE AS MANY ISSUES AND ARE ABLE TO FUNCTION SUCESSFULLY WITHOUT A FORMAL PLAN

* Is the absence of a written trading plan the "missing link" ?

NO....BUT FOR MANY IT CRYSTALLIZES WHAT THEY THINK THEY DO.....AND WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO (OFTEN THIS IS IN CONFLICT)

* Does the "Support Industry" (set up to service the failing trader) really have the answers, given the so-called statistical failure rate of traders as 95% ?

NO.....ITS A SUPPORT INDUSTRY, NOT AN ANSWERS INDUSTRY. EVEN UNIVERSITIES CANNOT MAKE YOU SUCCESSFUL, THEY ONLY OFFER YOU THE TOOLS AND EDUCATION.

* Can the inability of traders to breakthrough and truly "trade for a living" be addressed by one $600 - $3500 - $7000 - course?

NO

* Is the true value of the material received by the trader reflected in the cost?

OFTEN NOT, BUT ONE PERSONS IDEA OF VALUE DIFFERS TO THE NEXT....GENERALLY THERE IS PLENTY OF FREE INFO AROUND. SUPPORT AND A LEG UP TO THE NEXT LEVEL IS DIFFERENT

* Can a trader really help themselves, through the application of home-grown and common garden consistency?

YES....MOST STILL DONT DO THE HOMEWORK THOUGH.

* Do traders coming into the industry really understand what "trading for a living" involves, and what kind of life "trading for a living" will actually deliver to them?

NO.....MANY FALL FOR THE SALES PITCH AND THE DREAM....NO DIFFERENT TO ANY INDUSTRY....do you really need that extra special mop to help clean the floor, but wait, you have two for the price of one.....

*Do would-be traders entering the industry possess the personality attributes and risk profile, suited to speculating in financial markets?

MORE OFTEN NO......MOST RATIONAL HUMANS DONT....JUST AS MANY CANT RUN A MARATHON, OR AT LEAST DO IT SUCCESSFULLY.

 

And some non-rhetorical questions:

 

* Why do 95% of would-be traders fail to reach their goals, and indeed leave the industry with disappointment and busted accounts?

LAZYNESS, LACK OF ABILITY, LACK OF CAPITAL ETC;....LIFE.... JUST AS MANY MUSICIANS NEVER MAKE A LIVING, WHY SHOULD THIS BE ANY DIFFERENT.

* Why have these statistics stood for so long, given the massive support industry available to traders?

THE SAME AS ANY OTHER INDUSTRY.....MANY BUSINESSES FAIL, MANY PRACTICING PROFESSIONALS ONLY SUCCEED AS THEY CHARGE BY THE HOUR, NOT BY THE RESULTS

* Are "psychological issues" the real reason traders are failing? (I think that one is rhetorical )

ONE REASON OF MANY

 

... and my favorites:

 

* Whatever happened to common sense?

IT IS NOT COMMON, AND THEN COMMON SENSE IS OFTEN NOT REQUIRED TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN TRADING

* Why is it traders can take responsibility for mowing the lawn, and paying the utility bills, but won't take responsibility for their own trading activity?

MANY DONT...HAVE YOU SEEN THE STATE OF SOME PEOPLES HOUSES......YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO IGNORE A MESSY YARD, YOU CANT IGNORE AN ACCOUNT IN THE RED.

* Why do traders think that if they just get the right entry/strategy/system and so on, that they will over come their problems with losing? Could it be that this is what is fed to them by an industry with a vested interest in keeping them thinking that?

ASK THE BROKERS.....NOT THE HEAD SHRINKS

* Why do traders take expensive courses, and attend expensive sessions with "counselors and coaches" (which I did to no avail) instead of trying the easy things, like writing out a strict approach, based on rules and situations?

SOME WANT AN EASY FIX, OTHERS WANT SUPPORT FOR THE WORK THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE......MANY TOP EXECS ALSO HAVE COACHES TO HELP THEM PUSH THE EXTRA MILE

* Why do traders jump from Equities to Indices, to Forex to Futures. eMinis, Options, and then try to scalp, then swing trade, then try another system and so on, instead of FOCUSING and COMMITTING to a WRITTEN PLAN with DETERMINATION and CONSISTENCY?

 

SEE ALL THE ABOVE......

many people constantly look for answers and knowledge rather than practicing what they have learnt. There is reality and fantasy in every industry, and often the head can be buried in fantasy. Too often time is wasted looking for answers when you already have it.

[MightyMouse 12]

And some non-rhetorical questions:

Well Ingot I"ll put in my 2 cents worth.I became interested in trading stocks nearly 40 years ago and quickly became interested in commodity trading. At that time there were only a couple of ways to communicate. Books,newsletters,mail and phone service. Since then hand held calculator and the wonder of the internet came about. Also needs to mention that before that even back in the 70's before deregulation a R/T trade would probably cost $40 bucks. Obviously people didn't day trade back then. Back then the general mentality was to learn as much about the marketsas possible. After all those with the most knowledge should win right ? Didn't happen, and I strongly belive if records were available for trading accounts 100 years ago they would reflect the same.

As for myself I can execute my trading plan like a pro for a month or so only to give it all back in less than a

week by trading outside my plan. Always seem to find additional opportunities outside my trading plan.Perhaps I am over educated in technical analysis? Guess its just a mind game I haven't figured out.

 

 

* Why do 95% of would-be traders fail to reach their goals, and indeed leave the industry with disappointment and busted accounts?

* Why have these statistics stood for so long, given the massive support industry available to traders?

* Are "psychological issues" the real reason traders are failing? (I think that one is rhetorical )

 

Fajim,

 

Back in the 70's, 80's if you had a seat and traded in the pit, your commission costs were less than 2 dollars and you had a monster advantage over retail and institutional trading who were paying a lot more. If you read "Market Wizards" Monroe Trout boasts about only paying about $10 a round turn. Only the pit traders could scalp and day trade. They had complete control of the game.

 

I believe that most people fail for 3 main reasons. First, they do not have enough money to trade and realize that they still need to support themselves by other means. Secondly, their plan has failure built right into it. And, lastly, I think most retail and institutional traders grossly misapply math and logic in the markets.

 

One of the books mentioned on this thread has a sample plan that will more times than not lead to failure since it is designed to be taken advantage of by bad luck. You will have streaks of good and bad luck. Your plan should at least be neutral to both good and bad luck, but definitely not in favor of bad luck. Also, a lot of traders do not know how to deal with bad luck when it happens.

 

MM

[Rande Howell 10]

Mr. Howell,

 

I would like to ask you a question about something that has

always been floating around in the back of my mind. Aside

from myself I am sure others here would be interested in

your reply.

 

Lets just say a person had developed a simple trading strategy

that was highly profitable yet required that it be monitored and

traded throughout the day. This individual also had a very good

day job that he or she did want want to give up and could also

not trade effectively while at work. This I am sure is a common

dilema for most traders.

 

Why not just hire and train someone to monitor and execute

your trades according to your written trading plan.Being an

employee the person would have a vested interest in executing

the trading plan as specified.

 

The major distinction here is that "the person" you refer to is a hobbiest trader. He is not a professional trader. As a hobby, the person is not invested as a professional trader is. This is a huge difference. As a hobbiest trader, he is not fully committed. This is a problem that the high level mythodology trainers I work with have with their clients. Until the committment is there, there is wiggle room in their commitment to trading and the personal development required of such a committment. So they are not fully committed.

 

The traders I work with are different than the scenero you present. They are attempting to build a new life for themselves and their families that has finanical and personal freedom as the goals of trading. Hanging on to a job is not a sticking point.

 

Some hedge funds operate under somewhat similar circumstances are you suggest. So it is possible. The problem would be that, if the system is so simple that it simply requires monitoring throughtout the day, I suspect that you would have a turn over problem. As he gains experience,your trader too would probably aspire to finanical and personal freedom. Call it greed or self determination. That would depend on what the trading of the trader served. As a trader evolves, he moves beyond money as a validation of self and begins to embrace it as a tool.

 

Rande Howell

[Rande Howell 10]

Fajim,

 

Back in the 70's, 80's if you had a seat and traded in the pit, your commission costs were less than 2 dollars and you had a monster advantage over retail and institutional trading who were paying a lot more. If you read "Market Wizards" Monroe Trout boasts about only paying about $10 a round turn. Only the pit traders could scalp and day trade. They had complete control of the game.

 

I believe that most people fail for 3 main reasons. First, they do not have enough money to trade and realize that they still need to support themselves by other means. Secondly, their plan has failure built right into it. And, lastly, I think most retail and institutional traders grossly misapply math and logic in the markets.

 

One of the books mentioned on this thread has a sample plan that will more times than not lead to failure since it is designed to be taken advantage of by bad luck. You will have streaks of good and bad luck. Your plan should at least be neutral to both good and bad luck, but definitely not in favor of bad luck. Also, a lot of traders do not know how to deal with bad luck when it happens.

 

MM

 

I will add. Most traders lose before they trade. They approach their trading day from a mindset of viewing uncertainty through the eyes of fear. Until this aspect of the psychology of the trader is transformed, he will continue to invent a reality in which he loses money. Most traders trade NOT TO LOSE out of their personal histories, rather than develop the mindset that MM talks about above.

 

Good traders acknowledge that 80% percept of trading happens between the ears. Until you commit yourself to changing the belief structure that trades, you are deceiving yourself. And your trading account does not buy into your perception.

 

The good news is that your belief system can be developed. The bad news is that you really do have to invest the emotional labor (and often the financial also) to make this change happen. No on wants to look into the mirror and discover that they are looking at their worst enemy. Potentially, with work, it is your best friend though.

 

Rande Howell

[TheNegotiator 13]

Let me ask a question. Why is it that many traders do NOT take responsibility and take control? Why don't they get professional in the way they operate down to every last detail and ensure they give themselves the best possible chance of success? Simple imho. I believe that most traders when they start to trade do not understand the transdimensional realm that is the world of trading. They are torn this way and that by exciting new possibilities and great offers. They read this book and that trying to come up with the ultimate combination of strategies when really, they probably don't even know what an SMA is and what it implies in a market. Then, depending on the individual, they will attempt to trade and day in, day out they will lose money. Perhaps they will make money here and there and kid themselves they have made 'the turn'. Overall they will lose. They will lose until they actually have been reduced to an almost child like state. Why them when they have been successful in everything else they have tried?

 

So the next question I have is - how does this trader go about undoing all of this counter productive mind numbing material and addressing what is truly important - the trader themselves?

 

Someone once told me when I first started trading -

 

"The first couple of years is about surviving and staying in business. Then you learn to trade."

 

There is definitely something in that but I think there is a more important meaning hidden within the statement.

 

TheNegotiator.

[Rande Howell 10]

Let me ask a question. Why is it that many traders do NOT take responsibility and take control? Why don't they get professional in the way they operate down to every last detail and ensure they give themselves the best possible chance of success? Simple imho. I believe that most traders when they start to trade do not understand the transdimensional realm that is the world of trading.

 

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

People avoid having to change. Their brain creates explanations to the uncertainty of living and these assumptions become the hardwired beliefs that negotiate their future. And they are highly resistent to change. If facts are presented to the contrary of the beliefs, the facts will be dismissed. Look at the global warming dialog and you will see this.

 

Only when the pain of holding the belief becomes intolerable will "facts" appear to the trader and change in belief occurs. This is the 2 years of struggle that you referenced. The assumption that has to be dispelled is that we are rational human being. Neuro-science of emotion has proven "rational" is most likely your emotional brain producing an explanation that is well beyond rational.

 

Dan Hill has a brilliant book about how his firm studies emotional facial incoding of emotion by video taping people and then decoding why they actually buy. It is in what he called "micro expression" of less than 1/25 of a second that you can actually "see" the true emotion. The program "Lie to Me" is based on his work. THE TRUTH IS THAT WE LIE TO AND DECEIVE OURSELVES. It is built upon the work of Paul Ekman who discovered that facial expressions of emotions are consistent across culture. For me, it was a real humbling experience to recognize that my flesh has far more power over my thought life than I ever figured. Also Antonio Damasio is the neuro-scientist who has connected the dots between the motivations of the brain and the symbolic representations the mind uses to give meaning to the neural behavior called thought. It's thick reading for non science oriented people. But these guys are masters in their fields and shed much light on the inner connection of brain, emotion, and mind. Their work has greatly influenced the approach I take to change in performances in traders. You really have to regulate the excitory and meaning-making process of the brain and body before you get to the playing field of the mind. Most are not willing to commit to the emotional labor to change the wiring of their beliefs -- so they continue to think, and observe, in established patterns that produce failure in trading.

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

just as an aside question for......

Rande and FXGirl and other supporters/practitioners of the industry for trading education.

 

Do you think there is too much hype and a lot of snake oil salesmen?

(This might help answer ingots original thread)

[Rande Howell 10]

just as an aside question for......

Rande and FXGirl and other supporters/practitioners of the industry for trading education.

 

Do you think there is too much hype and a lot of snake oil salesmen?

(This might help answer ingots original thread)

 

This is an interesting question. WC Fields said many years ago, "There is a sucker born every minute and two to take him." I do not hold that the vast majority of offers (from vendors of various stuff, including me) are intentially meant to deceive and entrap. I hold that many of us simply fall into our own deceptive patterns and get suckered into promises that exist outside of the self. Get rich schemes have been around since Biblical times. It is us, each one of us, that has to become wise consumers of the offers that come. Nothing is going to be free. And if it is free, you probably don't want it. The truth is that methodology is a key element in the success of a trader. And it needs to be learned. Most learn by having a teacher teach them -- I certainly do. But buyer beware. Without development of the psychology to trade that methodology, you sucker punch yourself.

 

I'll give you a position that is dear to me. In my book, I tell people up front that the book is not the cure to their problems. No book will ever be that. A book delivers head knowledge, that's it. Changing beliefs requires heart knowledge and an enormous emotional investment to change the neurology of belief. Yet I declare this up front, and many declare me out to rip them off. For being honest with them about the process of changing belief systems in the brain. For some reason, they believe that heart knowledge is going to occur by osmosis to them. That's crazy too.

 

I have learned to tread carefully at Traders Expo. There are many that are comfortable in taking you. I had a broker actually tell me that he prefered the churn of an inexperienced trader engulfed by revenge trading. It was just money to him. This was incomprehesible to my sensibilies. I have also met methodology educators who are deeply concerned about the welfare of their clients. They want to succeed and turn a profit in the process. Intially I could not discern the different. It was all business to me. As I came to my senses, I choose like minded people who want to serve.

 

It is up to you to decide the intention of a supplier of an offer. Moving forward in the evolution of yourself as a trader requires this discernment. What people don't realize in trading is that a person's psyhcology can not be avoided. Methodology teachers are not built to teach psychology. But there are many naive people who want to be lead to the promised land without having to work.

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

thanks Rande....

I would say that you are correct - buyer beware,

I do have a slightly different take with this comment...."" Nothing is going to be free. And if it is free, you probably don't want it.""

... my take on this is (while it maybe more a throw away line by you) is that too many people actually dont apply enough value to those things that are given away free. Instead they often feel that because they pay for something it must have more value.....and this is where Ingot nails it.

each trader ultimately takes responsibility for themselves, and the support industry should be that....support not answers and quick fixes.

(I agree with the expos....i used to go to them and look for new platforms, new systems to help me...now they all seem to filled with vendors of regurgitated ideas, CFD providers and other people who take without helping....it made me shudder last time I was there....and I used to work with them so I know what they are thinking)

[Kiwi 16]

I'll give you a position that is dear to me. In my book, I tell people up front that the book is not the cure to their problems. No book will ever be that. A book delivers head knowledge, that's it. Changing beliefs requires heart knowledge and an enormous emotional investment to change the neurology of belief. Yet I declare this up front, and many declare me out to rip them off. For being honest with them about the process of changing belief systems in the brain. For some reason, they believe that heart knowledge is going to occur by osmosis to them. That's crazy too.

 

 

The funny thing is that Rande doesn't advertise his book correctly.

 

It should say:

- this book will not give you any of the tools you need to solve trading problems

- this book will keep selling my other courses on the way through

- at the beginning the book will suggest that some answers are in the later chapters but when you get there it will clarify this: you need to buy the next course

- and it should say that the book is self-published and not what you might hope for at all.

 

Then it would be honestly advertised.

 

That's without questioning Rande's qualifications; the value of the jungian archetype approach and the twist applied to it here.

 

As another hint: its often funny to get people who really are not well educated in the sciences writing about them; especially if they are trying to appear knowledgeable. I quite like "heart knowledge is going to occur by osmosis." Very down home; but not very scientific.

[Rande Howell 10]

thanks Rande....

I would say that you are correct - buyer beware,

I do have a slightly different take with this comment...."" Nothing is going to be free. And if it is free, you probably don't want it.""

... my take on this is (while it maybe more a throw away line by you) is that too many people actually dont apply enough value to those things that are given away free. Instead they often feel that because they pay for something it must have more value.....and this is where Ingot nails it.

each trader ultimately takes responsibility for themselves, and the support industry should be that....support not answers and quick fixes.

(I agree with the expos....i used to go to them and look for new platforms, new systems to help me...now they all seem to filled with vendors of regurgitated ideas, CFD providers and other people who take without helping....it made me shudder last time I was there....and I used to work with them so I know what they are thinking)

 

Good point SIUYA. Some of the most powerful moments in my life have been gifts to me, freely given. Same with learning trading. In noodling down into my answer, it's probably more about the effort it takes to change belief pattern. Most traders take the long route to change -- 2-10 years -- to learn how to integrate platform, methodology, and psychology. And the psychology seems to be the one that is most resistent to outside intervention. Like other normal human beings, traders keep looking outside themselves to place responsibility. It takes a change in awareness to accept accountability.

 

Most successful traders don't go to trade shows. They have built their trading plan and don't find much of interest there. It's the ones still seeking an answer that works that show up.

 

Rande Howell

[TheDude 10]

i think they key point is that if you trade just for money not the love of the job, youll have issues.

 

but there is a difference in use of psychology/recognising mental patterns to improve results when profitable, and overcoming issues that are blocking getting to profitability.

 

Id love to say more on this, but ive got an appointment with my therapist now...

[todds 10]

It is funny how so much is made of trading. The way I look at it there is no difference between trading and any other performance endeavor where big money is a reward for excellence like sports or music. No one would expect an athlete or musician to be skilled enough after two or three years to be good enough to make a living. Why should we expect any less from traders? The reason most traders fail is because they are woefully ill equipped skill-wise, even after several years, to compete with professionals. The truth is, they just are not technically good enough.

 

I compare it to an area where I have reasonable experience and expertise: golf. In my twenties I attempted to be a professional golfer and later worked fourteen years as a manufacturer's rep helping the world's top professional golfers fine tune their equipment for competition. Every player I worked with on the professional golf tours had one thing in common: phenomenal ball striking and putting skills. This was the bare minimum requirement, their "edge". If you couldn't hit the ball well or putt well, forget about trying to be a professional golfer. It was only after acquiring these skills that the individual's mental toughness, competitive spirit, and psychological makeup separated the champions from the also-rans. In most cases it took these golfers 5, 10, or 15 years before they had the technical part of their game to the point where they could compete. They often started when they were kids, and had instructors along the way pointing them in the right direction. Very few learned it on their own. They competed at all levels on the way up, honing their skills against people their own size, age and ability.

 

But what do we do as traders? We read a book, open an account, trade in sim for a few weeks then do the equivalent of teeing it up in the US Open. It's no wonder we blow out.

I would venture that most traders never come close to developing the technical skills (their Edge) required to begin trading with real money, let alone in sim (sim can be just as damaging to your psyche as real). These technical skills are not acquired quickly. It is a combination of knowledge and experience. Knowledge comes from books, seminars, websites, teachers, coaches, mentors, gurus, whatever it takes. Experience comes from screen time, lots of it, 5000-10,000 hours of it. I am with FXGirl on this point.

 

To try to make it any more mysterious than this is counterproductive imho.