Your Mama Doesn't Trade ... So Wise Up to Yourself!

[Ingot54 13]

Every time I hear someone recommend a good trading book - out trot the old chestnuts ... Mark Douglas, Van K Tharpe, Brett Steenbarger, Janice Dorn, Curtis faith, Rick Bookstabber and even Jack Schwager ... all come out as "the best book I ever read" ... or ... "the book I would recommend first."

 

But do these books really make a difference? Can anything we read really make a difference to how we approach trading? Is the "Psychology of Trading" a legitimate therapy for traders, or just a convenient add-on, taken up by Psychologists and Psycho=therapists who want to cash in on yet another field ripe for the picking?

 

I have certainly read my share of good books - and I have even recommended a few at times too. But I am yet to meet one trader whose trading success is down to the efforts of Psychological intervention in their approach to trading.

 

Sure, there are those who swear by NLP, but there are also those who have received zero assistance from this therapy too. And I can tell you that through my 2 readings of each of "Trading in the Zone" and "Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom", I have to say that I can not, today, remember any single piece of instruction from either, that has lifted my trading to another level.

 

I think it might be time to take a second look at this industry.

 

We are so indoctrinated these days to think - "It's not your fault. You were emotionally damaged as a child. You need to have some therapy to deal with your demons, and then you will be fine," that we lose sight of the fact that real men have "true grit".

 

Think about it - did your daddy or your mummy solve their head problems through going to a shrink ... reading books, 230 sessions with a psychologist? ... or did they just get on with it, and knuckle down and deal with things as they came?

 

Look, I am not saying that there are not real cases where issues of confidence or procrastination, impulse and so on can be helped by having someone more experienced to bounce ideas off. Of course such situations exist, and of course professionals might have some sort of role in that.

 

But for goodness sakes, why do we always tend to blame our damaged psychology every time we stuff it up in executing our trades?

 

It's wrong, in my view. And to put it as bluntly as I can, I think it is time traders found some balls. It is time to accept responsibility for our own failure to maintain commitment and consistency - otherwise known as (you guessed it - the most clichéed and least understood word in trading) ... D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E.

 

Face it - if you can not handle the markets you trade, then it is probably likely that you lack a half-proper trading plan, strategy, money management and strict WRITTEN rules. Or you are attempting to trade with insufficient capital, too much leverage, the wrong instrument for your personality and risk profile, or the wrong timeframe.

 

Have you EVER seriously looked at those issues, instead of running off to read the latest "self-help" guru's offering? I'll wager right now that 95% of traders on this site do NOT have a Written Trading Plan ... a number that strangely coincides with the same number of traders that fail to make any profits in the markets!!

 

The next thing a mature trading approach might call for, is to study ONE instrument, in ONE time frame and MASTER that single entity, before attempting to move on to other situations.

 

What I am getting at here, is that we really need to STOP navel-gazing, and STOP wondering if there is some elusive demon driving our trading decisions.

 

Instead, why not spend some time actually getting to really KNOW the market you are attempting to trade, and stop being like a butterfly and jumping from one bright flower to the next. Stop hoping that the trading idea of the century is just one more system/strategy/signal service/indicator or different instrument away.

 

You mother doesn't trade - stop expecting someone to do it all for you. Get some cojones and get serious about some decent learning effort. Stop the wishing and the yearning. Learn to master your market.

 

Now there's a good topic for a book!

[JEHs 10]

Interesting observations about the books and "the psychological side of trading". The same, of course, could be said of forums, such as this. There is very little of any value here...anything that will take you to that next level.

...but if there is anything that someone else can say to us to help us, your posts are coming about as close as one could get. I had all but stopped reading anything here and my visits had gotten fewer and farther between, but lately I find myself checking back daily...

A while back I got a restaurant gift card from here for $25.00 for starting a thread here:

I should give it to you since I live 200 miles from the nearest restaurant that would take it. Your posts are certainly more deserving of it than mine was...

 

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks,

 

JH

[Ingot54 13]

We are so indoctrinated these days to think - "It's not your fault. You were emotionally damaged as a child.

 

... why do we always tend to blame our damaged psychology every time we stuff it up in executing our trades?

 

... I think it is time traders found some balls. It is time to accept responsibility for our own failure to maintain commitment and consistency ...

 

... if you can not handle the markets you trade, then it is probably likely that you lack a half-proper trading plan, strategy, money management and strict WRITTEN rules.

 

Or you are attempting to trade with insufficient capital, too much leverage, the wrong instrument for your personality and risk profile, or the wrong time frame.

 

... study ONE instrument, in ONE time frame and MASTER that single entity...

 

... spend some time actually getting to really KNOW the market you are attempting to trade, and stop ... jumping from one bright flower to the next. Stop hoping that the trading idea of the century is just one more system/strategy/signal service/indicator or different instrument away.

 

Your mother doesn't trade - stop expecting someone to do it all for you ... get serious about some decent learning effort.

Stop the wishing and the yearning.

Learn to master your market.

 

A few of the above points were probably covered in this thread:

 

http://traderslaboratory.com/forums/f37/psychological-self-help-budget-challenged-trader-9208.html

 

But the point of THAT thread is that for things to change, YOU have to be FED UP with your current situation. The Youtube clips on posts #3 and #6 have a VERY powerful message - ONLY when you are SO disgusted with your situation ... when you are totally at your limit of frustration ... when you are on the point of giving up, or breaking through, will you find the drive to do what you HAVE to do.

 

Take responsibility for the silly ( a euphemism for something more vernacular) trading decisions that are repeated trade after trade, and STOP what you are doing, until you FIX what is wrong.

 

If you can't objectively look at my first post in this thread, and identify even ONE factor that you could really do something about this weekend, then I doubt you are serious about ever making money in this game.

 

I can tell you that I have some issues to overcome - and one of them is ... IMPULSE! The way I overcame that, is to follow my written trading plan. You can NOT enter an impulse trade if you are following a trading plan to the letter.

 

If you ignore the plan, and just trade on hunch ... just once ... then you are NOT READY to succeed at trading ... and perhaps you might be better spending your time working on a lotto plan!

 

How many times have we heard that the trading world is full of sharks ... that we are trading against other VERY smart traders ... that we can not win every trade ... that draw down is a big part of every trade ... and so on. yet despite all those warnings, we have traders who fail to have a written plan, and who persist in trading instruments, time frames and markets, in an under-capitalized state, with too much leverage, and then complain that they can't make trading pay.

 

Yep. The idea of this thread is that you have to cut the strings with your mother. She is NOT going to show you how to trade. Trading is NOT a boys game. You have to get to a point where you show you have the 'nads to succeed. Persistence, passion, patience, perception, are all good things to possess, but totally useless if, in the final execution of the trade, you fail to observe all the preparation that has gone before.

 

Success is finally up to YOU.

[Ingot54 13]

Interesting observations about the books and "the psychological side of trading". The same, of course, could be said of forums, such as this. There is very little of any value here...anything that will take you to that next level.

...but if there is anything that someone else can say to us to help us, your posts are coming about as close as one could get. I had all but stopped reading anything here and my visits had gotten fewer and farther between, but lately I find myself checking back daily...

A while back I got a restaurant gift card from here for $25.00 for starting a thread here:

I should give it to you since I live 200 miles from the nearest restaurant that would take it. Your posts are certainly more deserving of it than mine was...

 

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks,

 

JH

 

Thank you for your very nice sentiments JH.

 

The truth is that I am just one very fed up trader too. I got to the stage where I knew that I can trade successfully but was constantly sabotaging my accounts by taking trades that were well outside my own rules.

 

It doesn't get any more pathetic than that, I can tell you.

 

I can tell you one thing though - I never stop asking questions and seeking out the things that successful traders do, that is different from what I do. You know what? There is very little to be changed.. So far all I have been able to discover is that other traders who I believe ARE successful, have different systems and trade different markets and different time frames, but they STILL have to deal with the SAME issues that I deal with.

 

So ... what to do?

 

The answer is not going to be found in a seminar, or a book, or a coaching session - that sticks out like the dog's credentials. If the answers WERE found in those things, then most traders WOULD already be successful, because word would soon get around that a certain coach, course, book, seminar ext was the answer, and traders would be lined up nine deep to get that information for themselves.

 

They are not. The book sellers/coaches go to #1 for a year, then drop into obscurity - only to surface when someone suddenly remembers "oh, that is a good book ... course ... coach". The truth is, 99% of what the coach said, or what was heard at the seminar/webinar, or what was in the book, is forgotten on Monday morning, and the other 1% is never applied with zest.

 

We part with $39.95 for a book; $2,000 for a seminar; $3k to $7k for a coach. And are we better traders for it?

 

Look - I have to get right back to my original point here - all these things are props ... hand-holding. In my analogy, they are "your mother" standing by to rescue you. I have news for all those who fit that picture - your mother can't trade. She is not going to help you on this one - even if she wanted to.

 

Trading is NOT for boys - it is for those who have learned to stand on their own feet, and take responsibility for the necessary learning, planning, commitment and discipline (consistent application of the plan) that is required to make a trade come together.

 

There is nothing much more to it than that. I do not like to waste my time or anyone else's with BS - anything I post is designed to take others forwards, or bring myself closer to an understanding of something lacking in myself. Even my blog - taken as the exercise that it was - was a confirmation to myself of what is necessary.

 

The things I have written in this thread, and in the one in the link in post #3, is as serious and as genuine as I can get. I can not put it any more plainly - you will learn to trade well when you are ready to do what is necessary to win. I have listed ALL of the requirements.

 

I can trade successfully myself, but I still seek a further edge to lift my trading to the wildly successful level I know I can achieve, and which I know is waiting for me. I WILL succeed in this - nothing can stop me. I have it in my bile, my gut, my waking and sleeping moments, and in the time I spend reading and writing on forums. I have a desire to bring struggling traders along with me, and that is why I write the way I do.

 

No one has to know or understand my background, but I can tell you there are things that cause us to crash, or crash through.

 

Do you have any of that?

 

If you do, then you WILL get there mate. Do not give up.

[TradeRunner 10]

And I can tell you that through my 2 readings of each of "Trading in the Zone"

 

Hi Ingot

 

How did you get on with the exercise in chapter 11 of "Trading in the Zone"?

 

TradeRunner

[Cory2679 11]

It is time to accept responsibility for our own failure to maintain commitment and consistency - otherwise known as (you guessed it - the most clichéed and least understood word in trading) ... D-I-S-C-I-P-L-I-N-E.

 

I admittedly have not read through this entire thread, but I did want to say that in my experience, the trading psychology books (ie Douglas) advocate the very same thing that I quoted you saying here!

 

I disagree with the notion that rather than addressing psychological issues, people should just man up and shut up, and push through. While it is certainly one way to go, I feel like it's not the best way. I think the best way is to address and attempt to resolve the real psychological issues.

 

To me, it's like driving with all flat tires...you can just keep on going and push through it, not addressing the problem directly, but wouldn't it be a much better idea to stop, inflate the tires to the proper pressure, then continue on your way? It's certainly going to be a hell of a lot smoother journey!

 

[dryfterwylde 10]

Hey Ingot,

 

I have been a lurker in this forum for quite awhile, though after reading this post I feel the overwhelming urge to comment this time!

 

WELL SAID....believe it or not I think this post will help my trading. It’s almost like on some unconscious level we are all looking for an excuse outside ourselves to blame for our lack of achievements, whether in trading or life...like we are looking for someone to save us. I think the sooner you realize no one is coming to your rescue and that YOU are responsible for any and all of your results, the sooner you can take real, actionable steps towards making your goals come to realization.

 

Imagine if in the armed forces of any country just told the troops..."ok guys, new training program in from the brass...rather then eat mud, dig trenches and run PT and work till we drop everyday, we are going to become better soldiers by talking about the lack of love we received as children and how it might affect our ability to become better warriors for the next few months, then its off to the frontlines with our new found knowledge, the enemy will fear us for sure!!......."

 

While I do believe psychology has its place, it is no replacement for the willingness to stare deep into yourself to find the real problem and be willing to go up, over or right through the problem by putting the work in.

 

Anyways, well said man. Good no nonsense post.

[simonyadig 10]

Why do these books, coaches, or seminars have to be the end all be all ? Why can't they simply be one small piece of the puzzle? Why you make some valid points, you also act like a trader can't find any value from any of these? In the end, you success will not hinge on any of them, but they can help, sometimes a lot. It took me 3 years of trading before I was really comfortable and making some decent money, and that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons. In the end, it was my experience and rough patches that made me the trader I am, but had I had a coach or mentor to help, it would have made things go a bit smoother at times. I have been helping many people learn to trade, and there is one in particular who at 18 months is leaps and bounds ahead of where I was at that time. He picks my brain and applies that to his experiences, and I can guarantee you he wouldn't be at the same point without my assistance. My point isn't toot my horn, it's to say that there is benefit to be had from some of the things you mentioned. I read Van Tharps book, and while it didn't revolutionize my trading, it did get me to think about some very important things and in the end, I'd say that it was well worth the 40 bucks or whatever.

[ScottB 10]

The scariest question any trader can ever ask themselves ever (it is so scary, I can barely type the words) is:

 

Am I really cut out to be a trader?

 

My personal answer wasn't very clear - I can trade but normally hate to; so where does that leave you?

 

Then it occurred to me; I have pretty straightforward rules, when I follow them I virtually always make money and I have years of commercial software experience (as with actual software companies as opposed to in house IT).

 

The solution was simple, write algos and let them get up at 1 am and watch 3 trades in a row go against you (even though the rules were executed as only a computer can). That was when I began to be profitable.

 

The funniest thing is that now I can take manual trades much more easily (it still is not my favorite thing to do) because I know that if I follow the rules I will make money (and I like making money).

 

Scott

[Rande Howell 10]

"Why do these books, coaches, or seminars have to be the end all be all ? Why can't they simply be one small piece of the puzzle? Why you make some valid points, you also act like a trader can't find any value from any of these? In the end, you success will not hinge on any of them, but they can help, sometimes a lot. It took me 3 years of trading before I was really comfortable and making some decent money, and that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons"

_______________________________________________________________________

 

I appreciate the concerns you bring up here. Most people, including trader coaches working with the mind, miss how challenging it is to change biological pattern in the brain that creates the way we interpret the world. Traders and many others are seduced by quick fix offers over and over again. They come away from workshops and courses with a seminar high that lasts for a few days to a few weeks. Then the pattern is back again. It erodes the new learning bit by bit until you are back where you start.

 

The key you need to grasp about human development is that your brain is adapted to the biases, beliefs, and circumstance of your family of origin and community. This is where you begin. As long as you hold others responsible for your beliefs and performances, you are a pawn in a struggle that you have not comprehension of. The moment you wake up and realize that you are the one creating your world, life offers you a door to a new way of being in the world.

 

Over the years, I see little evidence that long lasting change is going to occur because you take a course or learn a technique. Learning occurs when brain and pattern are changed at an organizational level. Head knowledge has little to do with it. It is the habits ofthe heart that has to be addressed. This is where change occurs.

 

Most traders I work with have been trading for years and have toured the circuit of gurus from methodology to psychology. Until you decide that paving over problems is only a short term solution and embrace the need to de-construct and re-organize the memory circuits of your self limiting beliefs, they will re-assert themselves. I came to this conclusion while working with very challenging populations including violent prisoners, domestic violence, and child abuse. The same principles that guided self limiting beliefs, behaviors, and the creation of their lives from these populations are the exact same principles that guide develop across all human development of potential. There's was just much more extreme that normal populations that traders like to think they are part of.

 

Change requires both a motivated student and a skilled mentor. You can take the long route of the path of hard knocks and you get there sooner or later if you are a really good student. That learning curve has as cost as you mentioned. Finding good mentors is an endeavor within itself that also has a cost. Pay now or later, but you will pay if you plan to develop your potential. Personally when I have decided to learn something, I invest much energy into finding a competent teacher. This requires discernment, rather than believing the marketing hype of the teacher. This is why I offer free consults.

 

No matter what you do, if you are not changing belief at the biological level, you are only producing temporary change. Long term change requires emotional labor. Which, by the way, I see few traders willing to invest. It is not head knowledge that produces change. It is the heart of the trader that needs to change.

 

Rande Howell

[aversano 10]

The scariest question any trader can ever ask themselves ever (it is so scary, I can barely type the words) is:

 

Am I really cut out to be a trader?

 

My personal answer wasn't very clear - I can trade but normally hate to; so where does that leave you?

 

Then it occurred to me; I have pretty straightforward rules, when I follow them I virtually always make money and I have years of commercial software experience (as with actual software companies as opposed to in house IT).

 

The solution was simple, write algos and let them get up at 1 am and watch 3 trades in a row go against you (even though the rules were executed as only a computer can). That was when I began to be profitable.

 

The funniest thing is that now I can take manual trades much more easily (it still is not my favorite thing to do) because I know that if I follow the rules I will make money (and I like making money).

 

Scott

 

My experience is different than yours. I developed a trading application that crossed referenced 3 different time frames and executed trades based on certain rules maintaining strict money management.

Didn't work for me, if I had to develop it today I would have done it differently. focusing on T&S and market depth.

Every trade decision I take is in hopes that others saw the same thing that I saw and will jump on the wagon. You see, its a matter of who pushes one level up or one level down.

[ScottB 10]

aversano, that's what makes the trading world go round. For example, Al Brooks has an incredible book; dense but definitely worthwhile. Every time I read it, I get something new but wonder how a human could keep all that in their head. It always reinforces that I went the right direction for me.

 

I write algos and trade through a prop firm in Chicago; it is a perfect match for me and could be someone's worst nightmare. HFT works if you have the knowledge, speed, capital and commission structure. Without all of those components, you can get close but the deck is stacked against you.

 

We each have to find our own way, it seems.

 

Scott

[simonyadig 10]

"Why do these books, coaches, or seminars have to be the end all be all ? Why can't they simply be one small piece of the puzzle? Why you make some valid points, you also act like a trader can't find any value from any of these? In the end, you success will not hinge on any of them, but they can help, sometimes a lot. It took me 3 years of trading before I was really comfortable and making some decent money, and that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons"

_______________________________________________________________________

 

I appreciate the concerns you bring up here. Most people, including trader coaches working with the mind, miss how challenging it is to change biological pattern in the brain that creates the way we interpret the world. Traders and many others are seduced by quick fix offers over and over again. They come away from workshops and courses with a seminar high that lasts for a few days to a few weeks. Then the pattern is back again. It erodes the new learning bit by bit until you are back where you start.

 

The key you need to grasp about human development is that your brain is adapted to the biases, beliefs, and circumstance of your family of origin and community. This is where you begin. As long as you hold others responsible for your beliefs and performances, you are a pawn in a struggle that you have not comprehension of. The moment you wake up and realize that you are the one creating your world, life offers you a door to a new way of being in the world.

 

Over the years, I see little evidence that long lasting change is going to occur because you take a course or learn a technique. Learning occurs when brain and pattern are changed at an organizational level. Head knowledge has little to do with it. It is the habits ofthe heart that has to be addressed. This is where change occurs.

 

Most traders I work with have been trading for years and have toured the circuit of gurus from methodology to psychology. Until you decide that paving over problems is only a short term solution and embrace the need to de-construct and re-organize the memory circuits of your self limiting beliefs, they will re-assert themselves. I came to this conclusion while working with very challenging populations including violent prisoners, domestic violence, and child abuse. The same principles that guided self limiting beliefs, behaviors, and the creation of their lives from these populations are the exact same principles that guide develop across all human development of potential. There's was just much more extreme that normal populations that traders like to think they are part of.

 

Change requires both a motivated student and a skilled mentor. You can take the long route of the path of hard knocks and you get there sooner or later if you are a really good student. That learning curve has as cost as you mentioned. Finding good mentors is an endeavor within itself that also has a cost. Pay now or later, but you will pay if you plan to develop your potential. Personally when I have decided to learn something, I invest much energy into finding a competent teacher. This requires discernment, rather than believing the marketing hype of the teacher. This is why I offer free consults.

 

No matter what you do, if you are not changing belief at the biological level, you are only producing temporary change. Long term change requires emotional labor. Which, by the way, I see few traders willing to invest. It is not head knowledge that produces change. It is the heart of the trader that needs to change.

 

Rande Howell

 

Ok, but my point simply is that there are books/coaches/courses out there that can help you along your path. Both you and the original poster act like they need to be all or nothing, but that's not the case. Most everything you say is true and same with the OP, but in the end both of you are making it sound like there's no benefit to some of these books and whatnot (I'm referring to the good ones). I've been a profitable trader for 4 years now and it's been my sole income. Did I get there because of the books and courses I took? Nope. Did they help me out? Yes, absolutely. That's my point. If someone says Tharps book alone will make you a great trader, they're wrong. If someone says it's worthless and won't help anyone out at all, they're also wrong.

[Ingot54 13]

Some very good responses and ideas expressed here. Thank you.

 

Hi Ingot

 

How did you get on with the exercise in chapter 11 of "Trading in the Zone"?

 

TradeRunner

 

I don’t recall that test' date=' TradeRunner, which means I didn’t do it. I concede I may have viewed things a little differently had I taken the trouble to apply myself and participated in the spirit of the book at that time.

 

I read the book first in 2005 from memory, and again maybe 2006, but was not influenced enough at that stage to apply anything Mark Douglas was saying. Same with my Van K Tharpe book … I sold all of my trading books … 35 books in all, and kept one - recommended here:

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f18/must-read-list-9251.html

 

(see post #6)

 

But let me say this: I had done personality tests, risk profiles earlier in that year (2005) with (Coach) Chris Shea, and these things were already occupying my thoughts – I think I ignored similar exercises (if that was what it was about) for that reason at the time.

 

I am open enough to admit that I may have seriously overlooked something then that may have influenced me for the better. I may never know – and I am pretty much immune to purchasing books now – it’s all been said in one form or another.

 

The next book I read will be one I write myself – and I can promise you – if I ever do – it will not be a “please go softly, don’t break me” effort. It will have the bones laid bare, and I would seriously destroy what I see as the problems within the trading literature and teaching/learning industry.

 

I won’t go much further than to say I have little respect for the trading support industry as a whole – and that includes those who push the pedal on the Psychological “healing” approach to trading. These folk are making seriously good money “helping” traders overcome bad habits.

 

I remain fixed in my beliefs that if you have psychological issues, psychological assistance will not be your answer. The only thing I know that overcomes a bad experience is to get out there and get yourself roughed up – not as a masochist, but as a student – and L-E-A-R-N what works.

 

If you can NOT apply the principles of successful trading, then you have [u']NO BUSINESS TRADING IN FINANCIAL MARKETS[/u] – you will get destroyed.

 

Let me repeat – break the rules and pay the price.

 

You have to cut the cord with “your mother” and imv Psychological coaching is a surrogate mother. At the end of the therapy, will you remember what the course/therapy taught? I think probably very little of it. What does teach us, is our emotional experiences, and pain, elation, frustration and so on. If you keep on doing what you always did, you will keep on getting what you always got.

 

Stop it. Make the DECISION to change, and DO IT.

 

I can not see that traders need more than to be consistent and committed, and follow all the things I listed in my earlier posts. You have to read everything I am saying full context of the thread. Please read what I am NOT saying too. I will elaborate in my next post and in replies to others who have also been kind enough to respond.

 

Sorry for the long response, TradeRunner - with me you can't get the short answer when the long answer is an option!

[Tradewinds 12]

I have never read a trading book. I have never read a book about the psychology of trading. I do need to state that I don't read any books. I'm not saying it's good that I don't read books, but I would like to make one point. There are people who can figure things out by themselves, and there are people who don't seem to be able to figure things out by themselves. I want to figure things out for myself, partly, because I don't have a lot of trust that people have my best interests in mind. I definitely have learned things about trading from other people, but it was all free information. It makes me cringe a little when I read of a person who is new to trading looking for advice and help from other people. I have to wonder what these people are "in for", and what the end result is going to be. I'm not saying that a person can't learn to trade someone else's system, and be successful at it. But I hate putting my fate into someone else's hands. So you either need to be lucky and find the right system, or make sure you have some way of figuring out whether the book, or mentor, or blogger really has a viable system.

My point is this: My opinion is, . . that at least to some degree, every trader must figure it out for themselves. Being really persistent and "long suffering" is probably a requirement also. If you can't do those things, I don't know how anyone could ever make any money trading.

[Ingot54 13]

I admittedly have not read through this entire thread' date=' but I did want to say that in my experience, the trading psychology books (ie Douglas) advocate the very same thing that I quoted you saying here!

 

I disagree with the notion that rather than addressing psychological issues, people should just man up and shut up, and push through. While it is certainly one way to go, I feel like it's not the best way. I think the best way is to address and attempt to resolve the real psychological issues.

 

To me, it's like driving with all flat tires...you can just keep on going and push through it, not addressing the problem directly, but wouldn't it be a much better idea to stop, inflate the tires to the proper pressure, then continue on your way? It's certainly going to be a hell of a lot smoother journey![/quote']

 

Corey – Thank you for your response.

 

I can not recall what Mark Douglas was saying … but that’s my point. What I read (twice) had NO IMPACT on me at that time, and although many reading this thread may think it is indeed a great text, how many can say that they are NOW successful BECAUSE of what Mark Douglas taught them?

 

I concede there MAY be some, but how many? Really.

 

But I will say this – had it not been for my own determination to commit to what I have learned through bad trading experiences (the negative reinforcement paradigm) I would NOT have progressed this far.

 

I believe a trader HAS to COME TO THE END OF THEMSELVES as a necessary pre-condition to true learning, in trading financial markets. Learning is only possible when the DESIRE to change is the motivating influence, and my personal view is that the decision HAS to be accompanied with a deep emotional desire for "NO MORE" ... the "enough-is-enough" stage of the development of the trader.

 

I can only speak from experience. The "no more" experience can be mild, or wrenchingly traumatic - we will all experience this differently.

 

Note: Negative Reinforcement is NOT punishment – it is a learned avoidance response that leads to better outcomes, by avoiding negative situations.

 

A teacher can put useful information out there – write a book of facts, and draw admiring “oohs and aahs.”

 

A good teacher may even elicit some students to begin to try some of the material.

 

A GREAT teacher will not only evoke an enthusiastic application of the material, but will draw positive feedback and desire to apply even more learning principles, and drive the student forward to ever higher accomplishment. That’s how I see it.

 

How many traders truly turn their trading around as a result of books, courses, webinars, seminars, coaching, mentoring and so on?

 

Some? Many? Any? How do we know?

 

Well the “beaten path to the door” test will give you that answer.

 

How many traders are lining up 9 deep to follow Mark Douglas’ principles (to name one professional)? If not, why not? Why are the statistics bogged down in the "95% of traders fail” level, after 15 years of open involvement of the general public in financial markets? What’s wrong with the industry, that we have this deplorable situation?

 

It is my view that the industry is just catering to a perceived need. That “need” is for traders to have someone hold their hand, and tell them/show them how to make money, in just a few weeks of involvement in trading. This industry has sprung up to cater for the lazy, and those unwilling to do the work to get their act together properly.

 

I can point to the rampant proliferation of websites promoting Robotic Trading, Signal Services, Trading Systems, Newsletters, DVD Courses, Books and Webinars, Trading Rooms, Weekend Seminars, Retreats, Chat Rooms, and so on, as evidence that this industry is built around people who wannabe traders, but never cut the cord with their mother, and learned to stand up on their own feet.

 

I won’t go into the Gen X – Gen Y thing – the entitled generations - that might be a thread on its own!

 

Finally, when Mark Douglas advocated “Discipline” as per his title, did he allude to Consistency in Application of a Written Strategy/Plan, and Commitment to following that plan? I honestly can not remember, and if he did, then I probably will not have much to take issue with.

 

But I doubt he got the message over very well – because as stated above, the world of traders is NOT beating a path to his door.

 

General failure is STILL 95% … we are told.

 

Thanks again for your input here.

[Ingot54 13]

Hey Ingot' date='

 

I have been a lurker in this forum for quite awhile, though after reading this post I feel the overwhelming urge to comment this time!

 

WELL SAID....believe it or not I think this post will help my trading. It’s almost like on some unconscious level we are all looking for an excuse outside ourselves to blame for our lack of achievements, whether in trading or life...like we are looking for someone to save us. I think the sooner you realize no one is coming to your rescue and that YOU are responsible for any and all of your results, the sooner you can take real, actionable steps towards making your goals come to realization.

 

Imagine if in the armed forces of any country just told the troops..."ok guys, new training program in from the brass...rather then eat mud, dig trenches and run PT and work till we drop everyday, we are going to become better soldiers by talking about the lack of love we received as children and how it might affect our ability to become better warriors for the next few months, then its off to the frontlines with our new found knowledge, the enemy will fear us for sure!!......."

 

While I do believe psychology has its place, it is no replacement for the willingness to stare deep into yourself to find the real problem and be willing to go up, over or right through the problem by putting the work in.

 

Anyways, well said man. Good no nonsense post.[/quote']

 

Thank you for your kind words, Dryfter. It occurred to me that I might be coming across as a bit arrogant when I say things a little emphatically, and use phrases like “you have to …” but I want readers to understand that these are generalisations, and not in any way intended as a personal rebuttal of the statements they make.

 

I appreciate that this is a great forum, where people are expressing good things in a supportive atmosphere.

 

Your analogy about Army Training is spot on mate – we as traders, really ARE in a war situation, where we absolutely MUST apply the R-U-L-E-S, or perish.

 

That is the problem – many do NOT appreciate that risk – the failure to DEFEND by correct application of the RULES, is NOT someone else’s responsibility or fault. The responsibility rests 100% with the person who presses the mouse-click. Not his coach, mentor, or the person who ran the seminar, or who wrote the book.

 

Cheers – and good trading.

[Ingot54 13]

Why do these books, coaches, or seminars have to be the end all be all ? Why can't they simply be one small piece of the puzzle?

 

While you make some valid points, you also act like a trader can't find any value from any of these? In the end, you success will not hinge on any of them, but they can help, sometimes a lot.

 

It took me 3 years of trading before I was really comfortable and making some decent money, and that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons. In the end, it was my experience and rough patches that made me the trader I am, but had I had a coach or mentor to help, it would have made things go a bit smoother at times.

 

I have been helping many people learn to trade, and there is one in particular who at 18 months is leaps and bounds ahead of where I was at that time. He picks my brain and applies that to his experiences, and I can guarantee you he wouldn't be at the same point without my assistance. My point isn't toot my horn, it's to say that there is benefit to be had from some of the things you mentioned. I read Van Tharps book, and while it didn't revolutionize my trading, it did get me to think about some very important things and in the end, I'd say that it was well worth the 40 bucks or whatever.

 

Thanks Simon – I do accept what you are saying, and in fact I do see the things I am bagging as a part of the puzzle. But only as part of the puzzle – they are NOWHERE near the SOLUTION.

 

What I am trying to do is define the problem, and that is that there is an entire industry that sucks the blood from traders, as it purports to hold their hands … for the price of a book … Seminar … Course … and so on.

 

And I lament loudly that NONE of these things really is of ANY benefit to a trader who just wants someone to hold their hand.

 

Now please do NOT take this the wrong way – I am NOT against personal mentorship, or personal coaching. What I am against is an industry which is supposed to be changing the way traders approach trading, with the promise of a breakthrough, yet the perpetual result is only more of the same.

 

I believe there IS good material “out there” but it is NOT accessible to “ordinary” retail traders. And as much as Professionals and Authors want to promote their methods and their success rates through “testimonials” the truth of the matter is that right here on this forum we have perhaps 100 traders (think of a number and double it ) who are also crying out for some one to be REAL with them - someone to cut to the chase and debunk the BS that is put out ad nauseum.

 

Your own experience as a teacher of other traders (and I sincerely applaud your goodwill in doing that) illustrates exactly what I am saying.: that only those who have no other vested interest than the advancement of their protégé will be divulging much of applicable use to anyone.

 

There are those who churn “market-speak” for its own sake, and make a very good living off the back of struggling traders who seek out their services. In the end, such traders risk finding themselves many thousands of dollars lighter in the hip-pocket, but really still clueless about why their account is still static or falling.

 

I doubt ANY trader will ever find success in this field, without having a structured approach as mentioned earlier, and the inner DRIVE and DESIRE to crash … or crash through.

If you read Wikipedia and search for “Battle of Fýrisvellir”, read further on Styrbjörn, who burned his ships to force his men to fight to the end. While this stuff my or may not be myth – the anecdote does have an application in trading. The lesson is that is you wish to succeed, you have to be so committed, that you will do whatever is necessary to achieve that.

 

Simon, I am not attempting to discount what you are saying – I sincerely support your view. But you said yourself, that " ... that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons. In the end, it was my experience and rough patches that made me the trader I am ... "

 

And that is my point - YOU did it YOURSELF after YOU had been through your rough patch. No one held your hand, as much as you might have cried out for that help.

 

Success can and does rest on the many steps and “aha!” moments that come to us in our search for answers. But my contention is that is will not depend on the multi-thousand-dollar course or weekend events, or sessions with someone who is attempting to surgically excise the “please-mother-me” emotional ties that prevent advancement, and independent responsibility for action. The emotions will not heal until the trader wants them to, and that point will not be reached until they cry: “Enough!”

[Ingot54 13]

Traders and many others are seduced by quick fix offers over and over again. They come away from workshops and courses with a seminar high that lasts for a few days to a few weeks. Then the pattern is back again. It erodes the new learning bit by bit until you are back where you start.

 

This is at the heart of my lament about the Coaching industry.

 

As long as you hold others responsible for your beliefs and performances' date=' you are a pawn in a struggle that you have not comprehension of. [u']The moment you wake up and realize that you are the one creating your world, life offers you a door to a new way of being in the world[/u].

 

Over the years, I see little evidence that long lasting change is going to occur because you take a course or learn a technique. It is the habits of the heart that has to be addressed. This is where change occurs.

 

Now we are on common ground - the DESIRE to change MUST be an EMOTIONAL one - driven by a need to remove the pain of recurring negative outcomes.

 

Change requires both a motivated student and a skilled mentor. You can take the long route of the path of hard knocks and you get there sooner or later if you are a really good student. That learning curve has as cost as you mentioned. Finding good mentors is an endeavor within itself that also has a cost. Pay now or later' date=' but you will pay if you plan to develop your potential. Personally when I have decided to learn something, I invest much energy into finding a competent teacher. This requires discernment, rather than believing the marketing hype of the teacher.[/quote']

 

This is a very delicate moment, Rande. You are asking your readers to believe that "finding good mentors ... has a cost."

 

You do not define what a "good mentor" is, or how to locate one, other than "discernment, rather than believing the marketing hype of the teacher." The problem is now put back on to the trader to decide "with discernment" between what is "hype" and what is "TRUTH".

 

As stated several times now, the problem with the industry, of which your branch is a central cog, is that there is ONLY hype. There are NO results that speak for the ability of the coach, other than the testimonials offered on the website of the coach. Self-testimony is of what value? Traders continue to stall-out and crash, regardless of the course or the money paid.

 

You mention " Pay now or later, but you will pay if you plan to develop your potential" as a statement of fact - please allow me to disagree most emphatically with that. I do not see that a trader needs to "Pay now or pay later".

 

Rather, my vehement assertion would have to agree with your earlier comment:

 

"The moment you wake up and realize that you are the one creating your world, life offers you a door to a new way of being in the world."

 

Please note that this change does not need to involve the exchange of dollars - a simple cop-out to hide the fact that the work must be done WITHIN.

 

When a trader thinks that an expensive course is going to be an effective substitute for the work that can only be commenced when he is at the end of an EMOTIONAL tether, then that course is a waste of time before he even commences. And he might as well donate the money to a charity.

 

Most times the trader is not even aware of what is needed, and does not recognise that he has to be emotionally READY to begin the process of cutting the umbilical, and simply growing up, taking responsibility for getting the Trading Strategy prepared, and just doing it responsibly.

 

For a Coach/mentor to take on a student before ascertaining emotional readiness, is fraud. Plain and simple, because the Coach should know whether progress is going to be made or not, by the demeanour of the student. I do not suggest that this situation applies to your own courses - I believe not, since you are a Psychologist. But I do believe many coaches are aware that their students are mere fodder for the cannons.

 

This is why I offer free consults.

 

I was unaware from a reading of your site' date=' that you do offer these ... and I applaud you for that.

 

At which stage are these "free consults" applicable ... before the commitment to commence a course ... or after the student has completed a section of a course for which they have already paid something?

 

No matter what you do, if you are not changing belief at the biological level, you are only producing temporary change. Long term change requires emotional labor. Which, by the way, I see few traders willing to invest. It is not head knowledge that produces change. It is the heart of the trader that needs to change

 

I have no issue with that at all - but what brings the student to that point?

 

I contend that NO COURSE or COUNSELLING can make a student ready for something, for which they are currently emotionally unprepared. The studentMUST be at a crisis point within before any course, book, seminar and so on will transmit ANY knowledge or behaviour change.

 

The above are just my views. I have been involved in raising children, and caring for prison inmates, whose only desire in life is to manipulate their way through the day. The desire to manipulate is even stronger than the desire for freedom. Indeed, many inmates do not desire freedom as a primary goal. Rather, it is status and success in manipulation that they get off on.

 

Traders who have not made the "bid for freedom" are still in the "manipulative phase" of their growth as a trader, and retain a desire for "mothering-and-hand-holding" as opposed to tackling the problem at its root, and getting off their derrieres and responsibly working on a plan.

[simonyadig 10]

 

Simon, I am not attempting to discount what you are saying – I sincerely support your view. But you said yourself, that " ... that was before I had another real rough patch where I learned some hard lessons. In the end, it was my experience and rough patches that made me the trader I am ... "

 

And that is my point - YOU did it YOURSELF after YOU had been through your rough patch. No one held your hand, as much as you might have cried out for that help.

 

Success can and does rest on the many steps and “aha!” moments that come to us in our search for answers. But my contention is that is will not depend on the multi-thousand-dollar course or weekend events, or sessions with someone who is attempting to surgically excise the “please-mother-me” emotional ties that prevent advancement, and independent responsibility for action. The emotions will not heal until the trader wants them to, and that point will not be reached until they cry: “Enough!”

 

I was probably picking at straws because I completely agree with this point. Ultimately success comes from your own experience and perseverance to gain more and more experience. I'll freely admit that it's all my mistakes that have made me the trader I am. I

[SIUYA 11]

its been said before....

we all get what we want out of the markets.

 

substitute dieting for trading......thats an interesting industry.

Being fat and obese is not a medical problem (with rare exceptions)....its not a disease. its a lack of self disclipline and understanding the simple equation of energy in = energy out + fat storage.

Some people need help, but the diet wont help them, its the change in mindset, and its usually mamas cooking that can start the problem

 

I like the idea Ingot, and I too have similar sentiments....however I will say people do change over time in the natural course of living. So always questioning and re testing ideas, re reading books, forums etc; is fine. No one ever died from getting an education. Some times a gem of an idea just seemed like a line in a book when I read it a few years ago, often the small forgotten reminders can help get a ship back on course.

 

The few things I have seen all sucessful traders have in common are......a passion for the markets...(.and not a theoretical one), a strong work ethic to follow the passion (these guys are not part time traders) and an ability to be flexible, constantly questioning themselves, their ideas and their positions....this helps them go from long to short, to cut losses, to pyramid, to not fall in love with positions etc.

These I dont believe can be taught.

[Ingot54 13]

its been said before....

we all get what we want out of the markets.

 

I like the idea Ingot, and I too have similar sentiments....however I will say people do change over time in the natural course of living. So always questioning and re testing ideas, re reading books, forums etc; is fine. No one ever died from getting an education. Some times a gem of an idea just seemed like a line in a book when I read it a few years ago, often the small forgotten reminders can help get a ship back on course.

 

The few things I have seen all successful traders have in common are......

a passion for the markets...(.and not a theoretical one),

a strong work ethic to follow the passion (these guys are not part time traders) and

an ability to be flexible, constantly questioning themselves, their ideas and their positions....

this helps them go from long to short, to cut losses, to pyramid, to not fall in love with positions etc.

 

These I don't believe can be taught.

 

Siuya

 

This is the kind of rare insight that must "grow" on a trader, or else he must sit down beside a benevolent trader who already understand the gyrations of the markets, and if he is hungry, he will feed from it.

 

In my own situation, I am a one-show-pony with my trading.

 

I have a plan and I have a strategy to execute that plan. Doesn't always come together but there is a little box in my written plan that says "set Stop Loss at x times ATR when trading the XXX.XXX in the X time frame". All I do is take my setups - time after time - banging away at the market every time it is there. It works, and that's that.

 

All my job is, is to manage the trades then.

A better trader might still be in the market while I am out (waiting for another setup).

 

Eventually I will "get it" too, but the "edge" in trading isn't taught in a book. It will come through screen time and paying attention.

 

5,000,000 traders, from Indonesia to India, China to the USA, already have the same edge from the text-book. I have to be ahead of them if I am trying to take something off the table.

 

Only the points you mentioned as attributes of Pro Traders have a chance of delivering the edge ... passion, work ethic, flexibility, questioning mind. These should be the natural tools of the trading mind. And the benefits of "being" this type of trader is that when the opportunity comes to grasp something new, you will be ready emotionally, because you are hungry for it.

 

Less than this and you might as well read books all day, as attempt to trade.

 

The dog just won't hunt unless he's hungry.

[Rande Howell 10]

Ok, but my point simply is that there are books/coaches/courses out there that can help you along your path. Both you and the original poster act like they need to be all or nothing, but that's not the case. Most everything you say is true and same with the OP, but in the end both of you are making it sound like there's no benefit to some of these books and whatnot (I'm referring to the good ones). I've been a profitable trader for 4 years now and it's been my sole income. Did I get there because of the books and courses I took? Nope. Did they help me out? Yes, absolutely. That's my point. If someone says Tharps book alone will make you a great trader, they're wrong. If someone says it's worthless and won't help anyone out at all, they're also wrong.

 

Being that I have a book and offer programs for training the brain/mind for trading, I certainly in favor of education. The point I'm trying to make is that understanding our biology's influence (and how to work with it) on pattern and mind moves change from short term to long term more effectively. I know people who traded for 10 years with good head knowledge of their methodology but didn't make much progress until they really started changing belief system. I know trader who, in 2 years, were strongly profitable because they had the wisdom to know that body and mind had to be trained and developed from an emotional point of view.

 

Rande Howell

[fajim2004 10]

Rande,

 

Perhaps you could enlighten all of us here about some of the beliefs that are sabotaging

a lot of us traders. On the surface excecuting a simple written trade plan should not be

difficult,yet many of us are unable too do so.

 

 

 

 

Being that I have a book and offer programs for training the brain/mind for trading, I certainly in favor of education. The point I'm trying to make is that understanding our biology's influence (and how to work with it) on pattern and mind moves change from short term to long term more effectively. I know people who traded for 10 years with good head knowledge of their methodology but didn't make much progress until they really started changing belief system. I know trader who, in 2 years, were strongly profitable because they had the wisdom to know that body and mind had to be trained and developed from an emotional point of view.

 

Rande Howell

[MightyMouse 12]

Read through a Forbe's Magazine list of billionaire's, you'll read about the made for print profiles of many of the self made billionaires. Believe it or not, there are only a few that started out rich and became richer. Most started out poor. I am doubtful that anyone on that list read a book on how to become a billionaire and applied the principals they read. I do believe that almost everyone on that list that is self made is a ruthless business person who learned how to manipulate the capitalist system to their advantage.

 

Take Opray. She is on that list. Her TV personality seems so nice and warm and she has a following that is incredible. It is easy to assume that the billions just happened. Nothing could be more false. No one gets to be a billionaire unless you are incredibly greedy. Yes, the warm, lovable, big African American woman on TV is a ruthless, capitalist, greedy business person.

 

In order to trade successfully, you have got to be greedy. You are trading against people who are greedy. In order to consistently take money from greedy people, you have got to be greedier.

 

Greed and hunger are very similar. The poor people on the Forbe's list, or those who started out poor, started out hungry. When you are truly hungry, you will do things that you would not do if you were comfortable. You will not think about fear or uncertainty if you are hungry. That is something that the people who are comfortable think about. Reading about fear and uncertainty may make you understand it, but it will not help you overcome it.

 

Most of us, or I will speak for myself, can be considered poor traders and therefore need to be hungry when we trade. As a hungry trader, you have to take money from other greedy traders or you have to be hungrier than the hungry traders, or we simply hope that we come across a comfortable trader. If we have to chose, we are better off trading against the hungry than the greedy. If you are comfortable, then you will quit if there is too much pain and you will seek the caressing hand of your momma.

 

Greed, is the most important element. In a capitalist regime; it is what distinguishes one from the other. The markets within which we trade are the truest and probably the last bastion of capitalism on this planet. Greed is thrown around on this forum as if it a dirty word. If you are not greedy and still want to live in the comfort provided by your momma, the markets, either directly by losing or indirectly by paying transaction costs, will suck the capital out of you. Successful traders are simply greedy.The trading psychology books explain trading psychology to you. Those books will not teach you to be greedy.

 

MM