Concept of a Beginner How to Start (pls Give Me Advice)

[TroyMaster 10]

Hey guys I tried to figure out in the last couple of weeks how it could work for me to get into daytrading.

 

Im 24 and I do have a background as prof. Pokerplayer and studying currently Psychology in Zürich.

 

I don’t have any economical background. So basicly what Im saying why Im qualified to be a succesfull daytrader is, that I can handle losses better then other people, do have a discipline-mindset and do have the EV(expected value)-thinking-process (at least in Poker).

 

Here is what my first plan could looks like based on my research on the last couple of week.

 

Timetable

 

1. 6-12 month.

-Selfstudying about the market. Studying all kind of books about daytrading, markets, economics etc. Get a deeper insight in what is possible and what direction I want to trade

 

-Learning some systems to understand the concepts behind and upon these develop my own tradesystem.

 

-This also include a couple of seminars all around the world.

 

-Start out to daytrade on playmoney. The challenge here is, I guess, to take it seriously even thought Im not playing for real money.

 

-Start out getting the professional programs and equipment to buy and understand

 

 

2. 6 – 18 month

After half to 1 ½ years trying to find a system with works for me. Playing with so little money (e.g 10.000USD) that it’s not dangerous for my overall bankroll. The goal is to find an edge, not to make huge profit in the beginning.

 

In fact im talking about 2years (+/1 1 years) where I won’t make any huge money at all. Just to learn and understand the system and how it works.

 

I expect to lose 50.000USD in these 2 years because of expense on rent, living cost, travelling, seminars etc.

My Stop-Loss is after around these 2 years. If I can’t make any trading system to work in this time period, it’s not worth it and I failed.

It means my “education” to learn this job takes around 2 years and cost me 50.000USD.

 

Now the clue about day trading why I don’t understand you guys doing it:

 

Let’s assume I’m able to invest 100 grants. As I do understand from my research 30% revenue is a good year for a day trader. 30% from 100 grants is around 30k.

Well 30.000 USD a year is what my mum earns! She is teacher. 30k is the living expenses for me having a decent life. Because of that I cant trade for much more money and It wont be that easy for me to put more volume into trading.

 

What is wrong with this calculation? How do you guys make much more than 100 grants a year?

 

As a very good poker player you can assume to make 6digit $. At least 100k a year if you are working hard. If this calculation is right it’s not worth to even try to be day trader.

 

Motivation behind

 

- Learning and controlling my psychology. Serious this is one of my biggest motivations behind to be daytrader. To learn much more about myself by learning how to handle huge losses and wins and to survive as one of the fittest persons in the world.

 

- Competition. The imagination about being able to beat one of the hardest competition in the world with high risk, high reward and to achieve it is a high motivation

 

- Money. Obvious as the benefit to succeed in the competition.

 

- Some inner Power/strength with make me feel I can even compete on one of the highest competitions in the world. The feeling of that studying is wasting of time if it is about making money.

 

- fascination and passion about the stoxmarket

 

 

Benefits

-Freedom. With money getting the freedom to create my own world and reality.

 

-Success.

 

-Be your own boss.

 

-Life where you want

 

-Open-end income (compared to Poker) as long as you do have an edge.

 

 

 

Negative sites: as I read and do know from my Poker-background

- Boring dailyday.

 

- Nothing “usefull”. You are not creating something or helping other people or the world

 

- Starring at x screens everyday

 

- Social Isolation. You need to be able to meet people outsite your home or else you get isolated

 

- The feeling of the world is going crazy around you while you are just sitting and starring bored infront of your screens.

 

How does this sound for you? Im interested to get any advice you have. I also mentioned my motivation behind it if you feel like these are “good” motivation with can bring me to where I want to be. Do you like my motivation? And also benefits and negative sites I want to discuss with you and get some advices.

 

I’m not putting any cent into this business if Im not clear about what to expect and get. I have a huge reason why I shouldn’t do it. I have a decent life and lifestyle here in Zürich as a new student. My goal is to make at least 100.000USD a year in a medium-term amount of time (e.g in 5 years). Everything less I can work as a teacher or Pokerplayer.

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

Troy

[cplilqw 10]

I honestly do not think you should spend too much money on seminars and what not. It is better to spend your time and money on the market. Screen time is what you need.

[Kiwi 16]

If you have 100,000 and you are day trading then 30% is too low. If it was a billion then slippage would be an issue but with 100k it isn't.

 

Lets say you have finally figured out how to achieve an expectancy of 1.8 from a strategy that averages 60% wins. So you bet a dollar and 60% give you twice your risk; 40% lose your risk; slippage and commissions included.

 

How many trades per day? If its a fast index future 3 would seem reasonable. If its forex you might get 3 over 4 pairs. So 3 a day.

 

How much risk? 1% to 2% would be very reasonable with a 60% win rate.

 

So, 3 x a day you risk 1% of equity with an expected return of 0.8 on each trade. 250 days per year. Lets not compound as that gets nuts and I don't think most day traders aggressively compound anyway. So its 3 x 1000 x 0.8 x 250 = $600,000 pa. A little more than your mum makes.

 

That is the promise of day trading. Your challenge is to achieve it. I don't know whether I agree about the seminars or not. Screen time may only strengthen certain views - and if your views are not the "right" ones then a seminar or book might be just what was needed to move you slightly.

 

 

Just thought I'd add some comments on the issues with trading:

- you do add something useful: your buys and sells can add to the process of price/value discovery and provide needed liquidity to your markets

- it's really really important not to get your excitement from trading; sure you can get a professionals satisfaction at a job well done but don't go for excitement as it's too close to the realm of the losing gambler.

- actively seeking company elsewhere is important as is seeking outside activities that provide excitement because once you master trading and yourself it is primarily a "job" and it is solitary for most of us.

- it is also a tough job because its one where you can actively lose your money either through the will of the gods or, worse, through your own mistakes.

- so compartmentalize your professional trading activity and its job satisfaction from the other things that give you joy, company and excitement in life.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Kiwi
Some comments on the issues.

[TroyMaster 10]

  Kiwi said:

So, 3 x a day you risk 1% of equity with an expected return of 0.8 on each trade. 250 days per year. Lets not compound as that gets nuts and I don't think most day traders aggressively compound anyway. So its 3 x 1000 x 0.8 x 250 = $600,000 pa. A little more than your mum makes.

 

Do you want to mindfuck me?

Serious isnt it a totally wrong calculation?????????

An expectation of 1.8 return. A ROI of 80%????? Where are you living?

Your calculation might be right, but the terms are totally wrong.

Tell me if im wrong.

[zdo 20]

I skimmed your ‘plan’. The only suggestion I would offer is to go live out the gate and stay live your whole trading ‘career’ and never touch sim. There are sufficient mini instruments for this now and even though the costs may be higher, if you're actually tough enough it's not a factor. It will enhance your screen time training, etc. especially with some poker experience to draw on.

I know that’s not the consensus advice and this will most likely evoke some screams…but ironically the ratio of those who support it to those who advise sim sim sim is about the same as the ratio of those who thrive at trading to the losers and loosers… hm

 

All the best,

 

zdo

[SIUYA 11]

Troymaster - maybe a trojan horse???

"Let’s assume I’m able to invest 100 grants. As I do understand from my research 30% revenue is a good year for a day trader."

No 30% per year is a fantastic return from some of the best in the business eg; Soros, Buffett

As Kiwi mentioned they have issues such as slippage.

Day traders and Swing traders who are good can return more. I know of a few people regularly in excess of 100-200%.. There problem is scale. But as you can live off 30,000 a year you should be ok.

 

 

"As a very good poker player you can assume to make 6digit $. At least 100k a year if you are working hard. If this calculation is right it’s not worth to even try to be day trader."

 

Ask yourself.....what does a very good poker player make in comparison to a very good trader. Then ask yourself what does an average poker player make in comparison to an average trader.

[atrader123 10]

Troy,

You have a good time horizon. Keep your trading simple and concentrate on learning just one setup. Ignore returns till you master.

 

Markets are there to make money. Not to pay tuition fee. Use simulator well!!!

 

Most aspiring traders are intelligent and hard working. Yet most don't make it even with incredible amount of information available on net, books and in forums like these. Why?

 

If you are committed, find a mentor who is trading for at least 15 years or so and can train you for next 3-6 months. Not a black box system or signal service or trading rooms or 2 days/2 week seminars. You cannot learn that way.

 

The above IMO will save you good amount time, frustration and money in the long run.

 

Good Luck

[zupcon 10]

The timescales look a little on the short side, but if your coming at this with a strong poker background, and an understanding of how an edge can be exploited, your already 90% of the way there. You can probably achieve something worthwhile in 2-3 years.

 

I'd stay away from the books and seminars.

[wits7yle 10]

Troy,

 

First of all, kudos to you for doing your due diligence and research on what you want to do before you plunge into the world of daytrading. I for one, am a person who don't really "think" before I leap and I just plunge right into whatever I want to do and am passionate about. Although, I had sacrificed ALOT over the years, I learned tremendously about myself and what I can withstand mentally and physically as a human being and a aspiring trader. Even though, I learned a lot, I don't recommend you doing things without thinking through it first and I think you're doing a great job of that.

 

I don't usually post on this forum, (just read) I felt that your thread really speaks to a lot of people on the sidelines starting out and wondering about how they can start daytrading and make it a career. I think your post was well written and I want to help you with your decision and guide your thoughts as best as possible. I think the best way to reply to your post is to tell you about my own journey through how I got started and somewhere along the way, I'll get to your question about the 30% return.

 

I started full time trading about a year and 8 months ago now. I'll be the first to admit that although, I have nothing significant in terms of $ gained to show for it yet (matter of fact, lost a lot of money, maybe more than $50K USD), my passionate for trading is stronger than ever and gets stronger every single day. The best part of it is your development to become a better person because what I've learned is to be successful in trading, you learn how to be successful in life. Trading and life mirrors each other. Having said that, I feel like right now, I'm beginning to turn the corner in profitability. I have not lost money in any single day for 3 weeks now and counting albeit small amounts but I intend to keep it that way for as long as I possibly can and will be stepping up my "bet" size as I gain my momentum to earn more money daily.

 

Actually, as I am typing now, I realize I have to go. I'll continue this reply later and I'll try to hit on most of your points in your original post because there is a lot to talk about, but let me quickly answer your question on your mind about the 30%.

 

This is assuming you trade equities (stocks). Here in the states, brokerage firms give you Leverage on your equity. If you go with a professional firm, they typically start you off with 10:1. So with 100K equity invested to open an account, you'll be receiving up to and can use $1mil to trade with. With $1m to trade, you can easily buy 1000 shares of a fast moving stock say RIMM, and if you can make $0.50 on the trade, you're up $500 minus commission and fees. Without going much into detail, I have pulled from the market intraday anywhere from about $200 - $800 in one day with $200K in buying power meaning only 20K equity invested. Let's say you desire to do this every day and trade on average of 20 days per month. You can make anywhere from $48K - $192K a year. Keep in mind, I've only put up $20K of my own money so 48K is more than double as an ROI and $192K...you do the math. This is entirely possible. I trade actively in a room where the moderator in the room consistently pulls out $1K - $5K every day with $2mil in Buying Power. I see this with my own eyes.

 

Of course, I'm also assuming you've finally hit that mark where you can trade consistently (like him) and trust me when I tell you this my friend, the road to profitability is filled with pain, sorrow, emotional distress, sacrifice and most important critical of all, the inevitability of lost $$$. Sometimes, a lot of money before you can get to that point. But, with that comes extreme pleasure, passion ignited, the ability to live in total freedom potentially without concern for finances forever. TO BE CONTINUED...

[JBWTrader 10]

The guy you showed a lot of disrespect to ie KIWI probably knows more about trading than anyone else on here although he would never admit that.

 

I suggest you think real hard about what he wrote but maybe your not smart enough to do that but want to be spoon fed instead.

 

Best

John

 

 

  TroyMaster said:

Do you want to mindfuck me?

Serious isnt it a totally wrong calculation?????????

An expectation of 1.8 return. A ROI of 80%????? Where are you living?

Your calculation might be right, but the terms are totally wrong.

Tell me if im wrong.

[ckait 10]

Save your money and your ego. If your good at poker, play poker, dont ever open an account and save your self the pain (not to mention ruining your eyes at your age). Nobody ever realizes how much screen time it really takes.

Now that beig said, it is pretty cool to be a Day Trader, and most that I know do something else too. Dont put all your eggs in one basket. Good luck.

[TroyMaster 10]

Hi guys,

 

thanks for all the advices I got not only from this post but also from all the other posts I put here on this forum.

I just realized that I opened 5 topic around the theme daytrading.

Something like

 

How much stress is daytrading?

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f30/how-much-stress-daytrading-8850.html

Hidden or special risk when starting out?

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f30/hidden-special-risk-when-starting-out-8851.html

Bad things about beeing daytrader?

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f30/bad-things-about-beeing-daytrader-8805.html

How much math is involved in daytrading?

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f30/how-much-math-involved-daytrading-8807.html

 

all theese questions where about getting an Idea how it is to be a daytrader. What is required to be successfull.

And I guess I got a pretty good picture about daytrading.

My conclusion is: I gonna give it a try. Its a realistic approach.

 

Basicly my concept is nowadays:

 

- Jan. 2011 - moving to Barbados/Carribean to play prof. Poker again.

- Beside Poker start reading theory about the market, daytrading and concepts.

- Papertrading to understand all the different graphs, function etc. I can use as a daytrader.

- After a while (I dont want to set myself a timelimit - its more about a feeling If Im ready to trade on the market) trade 4 real money.

 

I prefer to start out doing what I used to do (Poker) to

 

a. dont get stressed from the beginning If trading doesnt work out right from the beginning and Im not doing anything else. That I dont get sick of trading.

 

b. to make enough money with poker that Im totally overrolled to trade. That I have the confidence to loose money and it doesnt bother me too much.

I want to be able to trade for at least 2 years without worring about any amount of money.

 

Barbados is from the timezone pretty awesome for Poker and trading US-market too and even for EU-market not too bad. (Im still not sure what kind trades I want to make longterm)

 

I probably wont go to any seminars and probably just want to make papertrading to get used to the situation. That I do understand all the instruments I can use.

You convinced me. Thanks for that.

 

I already talked with 2 prof. traders. One would coach me but is kind of expensive.

Around 10k he wants for 1 years coaching until I truely succeed.

Any suggestions here? Would you recon to invest in some real and longterm coaching?

He is doing both poker and trading and have a deeper understanding about how pokerplayer think and has been trading for 6 years now.

 

Anyway if you have any further suggestions Im allways open. I would really appreciate your advice.

 

Your

Troy

 

 

P.S - witst7le I would love to here more from you. Your post sounds really interesting aswell as all of yours too guys.

[atrader123 10]

Troy,

Sounds good.

 

I think having a coach will help tremendously in reducing your learning curve and gain trading mindset. On other hand, coaching will not help you if your coach methodology does not fit your nature or if you have doubts about his coaching/capabilities/method.

 

What you listed above is well thought and written. If I were starting out, I would do the steps you mentioned above for few months. This will then give an idea of what type of trading you like, which instrument and what kind of coaching you need.

 

If you already have a trading plan and method then ignore otherwise if you need, following are some good options to start - (a) Search Google for "Linda Raschke - Five Basic Trading Patterns". I think PDF and audio copy available on INO TV. (b) For a well rounded good trading plan, trade setups and how to use simulator, search on CME website for Jeff Quinto. There you will find his videos and a great trading plan. © Another good method would be search for "Ryan Watts" emini trading.

 

Note: Just pick one method that suits your nature and try to stick with it. Don't fall into trap of searching for holy grail. All exploit same concept but in different ways.

 

Side note: Trading not necessarily has to be painful unless that is what you want:-) As long as you remember trading is a journey, have patience, realize market pays you for discipline & consistency, specialize in technique & market without switching every couple of months and not compare your progress with others, you would do fine.

 

As you can see finding a method is not that difficult. The difficult part is above paragraph and that is the main reason IMO many aspiring trader remaining aspiring.

 

Wish you good luck in your trading!

Edited December 3, 2010 by atrader123

[youngsequan 10]

  cplilqw said:

I honestly do not think you should spend too much money on seminars and what not. It is better to spend your time and money on the market. Screen time is what you need.

 

Excellent Advice, you can read all the books in the world and go to 100 seminars, but you don't know nothing until you are actually doing it. I'm not saying don't learn, buy practice paper trading until you get good. When I say good, I mean focus on the technique, not the money. When you get the technique down the money will come.

 

-Sequan

[wits7yle 10]

Troy, how'd you get good at Poker? What was the journey you had to take? Did you learn from other successful poker players? Did you constantly read about how successful poker players play? How they think and respond and do?

 

Point is: to learn how to trade is like starting with anything you endeavor to do, and that is to get an education from someone or a collective knowledge (school/education company, etc..)

 

Secondly, once you commit to the education, apply it in the markets. I am not a big believer in papertrading. One of the reasons why is if it doesn't "count" you won't put your heart and soul into it and you won't truly learn that way. My biggest lessons, Ah-Hah moments and turnarounds came from my biggest emotional pains and struggles by losing real money. Trading is all about psychology and risk management NOT setups, systems, technicals, fundamentals, etc... Those are only vehicles to your destination but not the "Skill". Kind of like driving, it doesn't matter what car you choose as there are thousands of different models to choose from but if you don't know how to drive and operate a car and not get killed by driving recklessly YOU WILL get to the destination. Focus on the "skill" (psychology) and "operations" (risk/money management) and the vehicle (technicals/system) will take care of itself.

[MightyMouse 12]

  SIUYA said:

Troymaster - maybe a trojan horse???

"Let’s assume I’m able to invest 100 grants. As I do understand from my research 30% revenue is a good year for a day trader."

No 30% per year is a fantastic return from some of the best in the business eg; Soros, Buffett

As Kiwi mentioned they have issues such as slippage.

Day traders and Swing traders who are good can return more. I know of a few people regularly in excess of 100-200%.. There problem is scale. But as you can live off 30,000 a year you should be ok.

 

 

"As a very good poker player you can assume to make 6digit $. At least 100k a year if you are working hard. If this calculation is right it’s not worth to even try to be day trader."

 

Ask yourself.....what does a very good poker player make in comparison to a very good trader. Then ask yourself what does an average poker player make in comparison to an average trader.

 

30% is fantastic. A rare bird earns in excess of 100% and it is due mainly to good fortune in his trading. One is daft if they think they can earn in excess of 30% a year with any degree of consistency in any market. They will argue that they can, but never, ever be able to demonstrate it. I'm disgusted by the information given to new guys.

 

If you doubt the difficulty or earning even a positive return, take a look at "The Race" thread and look at how the market humbles participants with grandiose plans.

 

SIUYA, I will bet you anything you like that the traders you know who regularly make 100%-200% a year will not be willing to show you a statement that verifies that.

 

I am do not mean to poo-poo trading, but if you are planning a career as an independent trader you need to have enough capital to make it. Its really like any business and most poeple fail because they do not have enough start up capital going in to survive.