Actively Day Trading One Single Market VS Day Trading a Handful of Markets?

[HighStakes 10]

Hello everyone,

 

It`s been written and recommended several places that for the new day trader it is smart to focus on trading just one single market: learn everything about it, become one with it and master it.

 

This has made perfectly sense for me in theory, but now that I`m in the practical process of choosing a market to trade (and paper trading), I have a hard time to decide which market to choose.

 

Actually, the idea of day trading a handful of markets seems more appealing to me right now. One obvious benefit I see is that by trading several markets, it may be easier to not overtrade since you most likely will get more high-probability set-ups. When one market may look hard to trade, the perfect set-up may materialize in another market.

 

If I had to choose a single market though, I have to say that I have really started to enjoy crude oil lately.

 

Appreciative of any advice on the subject.

 

Best regards,

 

HighStakes

[brownsfan019 17]

There is no perfect answer to this question.

 

Some things to consider...

 

> If trading manually, how many can you watch at once easily?

> Will margins become an issue?

> Do you get 'enough' trades in 1 market or do you need more markets due to the restrictive nature of your trading plan?

 

For example, I will watch many markets but currently only trading oil. Reason is that the moves are very conducive to my trading and it's easier to place trades on 1 market. As long as oil keeps working for me, I will focus my energy there.

 

If I was trading a system that might have 1-2 trades a day, I would most definitely be looking at many markets.

 

So I think it's really a function of how many trades you can expect per day. If it's greater than 5, 1-2 markets would be plenty in the beginning.

[MadMarketScientist 11]

I'm with Brownsfan on this one -- I do think frequency of trade plays a part. I would climb up the walls if I was trading only one market and it traded 1x to 2x per day. I simply don't have the patience for that. You need to know yourself.

 

With that said, I'm a big fan of following only 1 or 2 markets if you can get the frequency part down.

 

I think the markets where you can find some of the better activity are Crude Oil that you mention (though since the BP oil issue there has been less movement and volatility - and there are some theories why including BP traders leaving the company who were amongst the most active CL traders but that's another story), and I also think the Russell e-Mini (TF) and Nasdaq e-Mini (NQ) can be good choices depending upon your margin available.

 

While I feel forex can provide some great trading opportunities I don't typically see it trade very quickly except in spots, and therefore you might want to consider multiple markets if you're focusing just on forex but the challenge if daytrading is finding the ones where the bid/ask is narrow enough -- and realize you'll be putting in more time I think than some of the futures above.

 

You could trade the CL from 8:50am EST to 10:30am EST (except Wednesday with the Crude report) and never need any additional time for example.

[HighStakes 10]

Thanks guys,

 

May I ask which other markets you are watching, brownsfan019? And how many trades do you usually average per day in crude oil?

 

I`m not looking to place several trades simultaneously, so margin will not be an issue.

 

I may consider trading one index in addition to crude oil. I don`t like that I can`t trade during the opening hours of the US session, especially with regards to crude oil, but I have to work with what I`ve got I guess

[Justaguy 10]

I'm with the other posters. Frequency of trades is a huge factor in determining how many you can watch. One thing you don't want is to be watching too many and having to chase entries simply because the markets are too fast.

 

I don't know if I ever totally became "one" with the market. There are far too many influences on the day to day movements. Far beyond what I could ever fully grasp. I have heard as well to learn how the market moves.....etc. The only problem I see with that is that you'd need the same market participants and variables over and over again. Add or subtract a variable and the ball game can change. For me, I have a trade setup that I look for. Trades goes on. Trade is managed to target, break even or loss. Nothing more complicated than that.

[JohnnySDG 10]

...... As long as oil keeps working for me, I will focus my energy there.......

 

Focus my energy there? Pun intended?

 

 

High Stakes, since you are new to trading you should focus on one market. Even if you have 1 trade per day.

 

Remember, you are new and you should hone your skills in one market. You are trying to learn to trade as much as you are trying to make money.

 

Another important issue to note is how much you make per trade. It is better to make one solid trade with a good profit than several scalps. That leads to money management.....

 

Risk-Reward scenarios and position sizing are more important than your trading methodology.

 

Lastly, trading crude is really going right into the lion's den. But, you can have some great trades. Proceed with caution.

 

Best of Luck,

Johnny

Edited July 19, 2010 by JohnnySDG

[metatron 10]

Highstakes, your in the identical position to me and it is incredible just how much stress choosing markets and a timeframe can be! I've been trading three years and I still haven't decided what markets and timeframe I'm going to stick with!

 

I think the general delimma is: do you apply one setup to many markets or do you apply many setups to one market(or simply one setup for one market).

 

I've recently completed(wasted?) three months research on a swing trading system based on EOD signals which had good results but when it came to pulling the trigger on it I just couldn't do it because I didn't feel comfortable with the system when it came to real money.

 

Now my natural inclination is towards scalping but the problem I have with this is the setups I use only produce 1 to 2 trades per day max and if I literally don't stare at the charts all day I will miss them and if I do miss them I'll flip out and turn into the angry trader which doesn't help matters.

 

I know I get mentally tired really quickly watching more than one market so I think energy conservation is a factor that must be considered.

 

Either way choosing your market(s) and your timeframe are the most important factors in trading and once you've found them then trading should really become boring repeating the same setups in the same markets albeit hopefully profitable. Easy to say but very, very hard to do.

[JohnnySDG 10]

Metatron, scalping is a receipe for disaster.

 

Slippage and commissions will melt your capital like a snowball in Miami.

 

Newbies have to remember 1 thing - Not only do >95% of all people lose money trading....but that 95% includes the people that claim to make money.

 

I said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here. This "full time trader" idea is a fantasy. Its like playing pro sports, some will but most wont.

 

Figure out a way to make a return on your capital.

 

I'm willing to help out those who ask me. I don't sell anything and I ask for nothing in return. I've been trading over 20 years and find the "I don't give out my secrets" line to be a pile of crap. Trading is mostly about money management more than some "secrets of the pros".

Fact is most people would lose money even if the best traders in world sat next to them and taught them for six months. If Eric clapton gave you 2 years of guitar lessons you still wouldn't be Eric Clapton.

 

Now, with all that said, It is possible to make a good return on your capital. If you still think you can become rich trading full time then good luck. But, if you want to learn some trading reality I'm happy to help.

[Tams 20]

... If Eric clapton gave you 2 years of guitar lessons you still wouldn't be Eric Clapton.

...

 

 

.......... that's a good one !

[Bam-Bam 10]

Each market has its particular characteristics and nuances. As a beginner, it takes awhile to pick up on them. They have different turning points, different trading hours, different news reactions. Trying to master market understanding while mastering one’s own behavior adds a few more levels of complexity to the learning process.

 

Rather than trying to trade several markets concurrently, spend a few weeks paper trading each market. Spend a couple of weeks trading indexes, a couple of weeks trading metals, a couple of weeks trading interest rates, etc. When you find one that seems to gel with your personality and strategies, stay there for a month or so. Instead of following the worn out path of learning with indexes, you may have a better experience with a different market.

 

That’s one thing I wish I had done as a beginner futures trader. I spent a year and a half losing money in indexes but didn’t move to anything else because I thought I needed to master “simple” index trading first. Then one day I heard somebody say, “If you’re struggling trading indexes, maybe they’re not your thing. Try trading something that trends better.” So I moved to Euro Futures, and it was like flipping a light switch. The setups were prettier, results better, and my anxiety level went way down. I still get drawn back to indexes every now and then because of the incredible liquidity, but ten out ten massive account draw downs is the usual result. I'm still learning my lesson the hard way.

 

With regard to starting trading with Crude futures, I can think of very few trading experiences that would be as painful as learning to trade with Crude. The volatility is nice and the trade setups are clean, but unless you are truly on top of your game, you risk getting your head torn off. A good example is this morning’s price action. Within an hour, Crude rallied from 76.00+/- to 78.00+/- from 8:45am to 9:50am Eastern. That’s a $2,000 move per contract. There are so many other facets of trading that a beginner trader struggles with that you would be poorly serving yourself to start this way.

 

Trying to learn by trading the DAX might be a comparable experience.

 

 

May all your fills be full and your exits timely,

 

Bam

Bam

Bam-Bam

[MadMarketScientist 11]

The key advice below is to not try and scalp as a beginner. Cannot agree more. It is a great way to get your brokers mortgage paid but not yours. Between slippage, mistakes, commission and fatigue it rarely works out for the beginner.

 

And if you want to know more why you will never be Eric Clapton the book Outliers from Malcolm Gladwell is a great one and explains it.

 

 

Metatron, scalping is a receipe for disaster.

 

Slippage and commissions will melt your capital like a snowball in Miami.

 

Newbies have to remember 1 thing - Not only do >95% of all people lose money trading....but that 95% includes the people that claim to make money.

 

I said this in another thread and I'll repeat it here. This "full time trader" idea is a fantasy. Its like playing pro sports, some will but most wont.

 

Figure out a way to make a return on your capital.

 

I'm willing to help out those who ask me. I don't sell anything and I ask for nothing in return. I've been trading over 20 years and find the "I don't give out my secrets" line to be a pile of crap. Trading is mostly about money management more than some "secrets of the pros".

Fact is most people would lose money even if the best traders in world sat next to them and taught them for six months. If Eric clapton gave you 2 years of guitar lessons you still wouldn't be Eric Clapton.

 

Now, with all that said, It is possible to make a good return on your capital. If you still think you can become rich trading full time then good luck. But, if you want to learn some trading reality I'm happy to help.

[JohnnySDG 10]

The last two posts offer great advice.

 

I'm an options trader. I just can't trade futures. Options I can trade in my sleep, its just second nature.

 

Study the different markets and see what you like best and fits your style.

 

To use another Eric Clapton example - Eric's not playing the drums!

[MadMarketScientist 11]

JohnnySDG

 

I do agree. In a former life when I was doing some training everyone would come into the training with a preconceived notion that they should be an S&P e--mini trader, or they were an options spread trader, or they only traded stocks. Usually maybe what they read or saw out there and felt they should be that to.

 

Virtually without exception I'd tell them that in 90 days you'll be trading something completely different than you are now, and it won't even be something you are even thinking as a possibility today.

 

For the exact reason that there is a real "fit" issue. I might personally love trading a certain market like Crude or the Dax, and the next guy might totally hate the pace, and the hours and the style and wouldn't even consider it.

 

So many criteria but a good start is to decide what your risk capital is. That will exclude/include a number of markets right away. Determine what hours of the day or night you can trade. This will rule out many markets, and rule some in. Decide if you want to have to "watch" your trades or set and forget. Decide if you are going to day or swing trade. And of course once you know your time of day you have, how much time you can give it. Finally, decide on a circuit breaker that if you equity gets down to a certain level you'll stop and reassess. If you go through just these few questions you will end up with a very small list of markets to trade -- but it will be highly personal to you.

[JohnnySDG 10]

Well said MadMarketScientist!

 

It is what fits you best. You can't make it fit.

 

I would also like to add that some people are just never going to be able to do it. That is just the facts.

 

 

Johnny

[electroniclocal 10]

Sorry guys, I completely disagree with most of what is said above apart from "trade one market on one chart". I am delivering a training course at the moment to convert a group of 25 previously unprofitable traders into consistently profitable ones. Its not just what is taught but how it is taught.

 

Comparing trading to Eric Clapton's talent of guitar playing (which he was born with) to teaching someone to ideantify order flow and react to it, is a ridiculous comparison. It may sound like a nice sound bite but is so far from reality and doesn't make sense.

 

Trading can and is capable of being taught. Just because you haven't been taught or you can't teach it doesn't mean it can't be done. 10% who have learned to trade and they certainly aren't all geniuses. It can be done with a group of traders at a time.

 

EL

[SIUYA 11]

Trading like anything can be taught, its just that some people will be ok at it which usually means break even after commissions, some will make a reasonable living, and a very small few will really succeed.

As has been mentioned that you need to fit your personality and style, I am sure that not every market or style suits someone, and hence there will always be some wrong turns in the journey.

There are always too many preconceived notions that first need to be eliminated as has been pointed out. There are plenty of trained lawyers out there who are not practicing law and I reckon a few of them found out that its largely a pencil pushing job rather than the high flying court room dramas they initially believe.

(Electronic local - I have loosely followed your blog, and one great point you make is about consistent profitability for day trading....lots of people miss this in many teachings. I also think that stops should not really be called "stop losses" but 'stop account crippling drawdowns" or "stop blowups".)

 

I always wondered about the 95% statistic....where does it come from?

At a guess I think that if its based on closed accounts, then there must be a lot of traders in there who either;

1, are undercapitalised, and hence close an account

2, get bored, loose interest, become too frustrated to continue

3, close a few accounts, and yet ultimately become profitable with one account

4, dont like their broker and hence close an account.

5, change their trading styles over time and either it does not work or they disappear through boredom.

[MightyMouse 12]

Sorry guys, I completely disagree with most of what is said above apart from "trade one market on one chart". I am delivering a training course at the moment to convert a group of 25 previously unprofitable traders into consistently profitable ones. Its not just what is taught but how it is taught.

 

Comparing trading to Eric Clapton's talent of guitar playing (which he was born with) to teaching someone to ideantify order flow and react to it, is a ridiculous comparison. It may sound like a nice sound bite but is so far from reality and doesn't make sense.

 

Trading can and is capable of being taught. Just because you haven't been taught or you can't teach it doesn't mean it can't be done. 10% who have learned to trade and they certainly aren't all geniuses. It can be done with a group of traders at a time.

 

EL

 

The Clapton comparison is meant to show how difficult it is to become a great trader since Clapton is a great guitarist. Anyone can learn how to play a guitar and anyone can learn how to trade. But few guitarists are able to attain the status of Eric Clapton just as few traders will be able to attain the status of Great Trader.

 

Eric Clapton makes a fortune playing the guitar. Great traders make a fortune trading. Aspiring guitarists starve. Aspiring traders starve. need I go on? The Clapton comparison works quite well.

 

Is he born with it? I disagree. Clapton, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Etc. are simply willing to do what it takes to be number one.

[JohnnySDG 10]

Trading like anything can be taught, its just that some people will be ok at it which usually means break even after commissions, some will make a reasonable living, and a very small few will really succeed.

As has been mentioned that you need to fit your personality and style, I am sure that not every market or style suits someone, and hence there will always be some wrong turns in the journey.

There are always too many preconceived notions that first need to be eliminated as has been pointed out. There are plenty of trained lawyers out there who are not practicing law and I reckon a few of them found out that its largely a pencil pushing job rather than the high flying court room dramas they initially believe.

 

Well said!

 

Electronic local, my analogy about Eric Clapton is dead on. Do you really disagree with that or are you just trying to get people to believe that so you can sell them training.

 

If it was that easy more people would do it. Its very difficult and very few will be able to make a living at it.

 

Now, I do believe its not hard to learn how to make a positive return on capital but to trade full time for a living is just a dream.

 

Johnny

[MadMarketScientist 11]

I think people tend to get way too absolute with this. Just because the majority of traders fail in their pursuit of the full time dream doesn't mean it's not possible. At the same time, no way can you train a group of people and have everyone end up successful. No matter how good the system or training there will be some in that group who completely butcher it. Nor does that outcome mean you cannot be trained.

 

I think of marketing. I once helped a friend with some direct mail and there was maybe 1,000 pieces sent out. After a few weeks she told me it was a failure. Which surprised me. I asked how many responses to the coupon she got and she said 'only' 34. Which is a 3.4% response rate which is actually fairly great. Of those 34, many turned into repeat clients and overall led to an roi that was about 10x the cost. However, she could only focus on the failure of the other 966 who did not redeem.

 

I think people say trading cannot be learned or there's no way to be full time since the numbers are daunting -- it is possible, but let's be realistic and admit that the majority will not -- no matter how good the marketing like the example above or how good the training is. We're just fighting human nature and behaviors in expecting absolutes/100% outcomes.

 

One final thought, back in the day when I was doing training, I would always survey people who attended the presentation, without fail, over 90% were not profitable despite having spent on average $2,500 or higher on training, strategy, courses, etc... HOWEVER, there was almost always 5% - 10% who were successful. Meaning it's very possible, just not easy.

 

 

 

 

Well said!

 

Electronic local, my analogy about Eric Clapton is dead on. Do you really disagree with that or are you just trying to get people to believe that so you can sell them training.

 

If it was that easy more people would do it. Its very difficult and very few will be able to make a living at it.

 

Now, I do believe its not hard to learn how to make a positive return on capital but to trade full time for a living is just a dream.

 

Johnny

[thalestrader 14]

...Now, I do believe its not hard to learn how to make a positive return on capital but to trade full time for a living is just a dream.

 

One of the best essays I ever read having to do with the real basis of the question at hand can be found at Rod Roth's blog, which I shared at the reading charts thread some time ago, and can be found here: Trader's Page

 

He gets to the heart of the matter when he tells us that for a long while "I understood everything about trading but I could not be profitable until I gained emotional discipline. The ability to execute a trading plan consistently is the biggest challenge in trading because it is principally a psychological problem."

 

He then burrows into the heart of the matter when he confesses that "There are things in trading I cannot do. It matters not that these things are efficacious and that others execute them flawlessly and make lots of money. I can’t do them because the emotional part of my brain wants no part of them. Like it or not, the emotional part of my brain heavy-handedly makes most of my decisions in a trade." emphasis added

 

It was not until he admitted to himself that "I’m a trader and ...I don’t like being in the market," that he was able to settle down and identify an approach that would enable him to trade for his livelihood. You see, the original question posed by the OP is tangential to the question for which he is really seeking an answer - "What kind of trader am I, and given that, what market should I trade and how should I trade it?" And the answer to this will depend upon his ability to "know thyself." You must know your own limitiations, emotionally and psychologically, in order to identify a trading program that plays to your emotional strengths while protecting you (and your capital) from you human, all too human weaknesses.

 

Rod Roth would not make it if he were trying to be a Curtis Faith type trend follower. At the same time, I would bet that Curtis Faith would go nuts if he were made to sit in front of a monitor shooting for less than a handful of ticks 5-10 times each day. Yet each can "make a living" trading. How so? Well, I imagine that we'd all agree that what we mean by "making a living" is simply generating sufficient current income to cover current living expenses while producing a sufficient excess current income to that can be saved in such a way as to prserve current buying power for use toward future emergencies, desires, and ultimately, a period of diminished or absent income known as "retirement." The markets can provide this in many ways, some of which are hardly "full-time." I know a trader who has generated a fabulous income for 24 years as a seller of options. Most would say he is thus a "full-time" trader. However, other than options expiration day, he spends very few "whole days" trading. I aquainted with a number of traders who successfully generate solid incomes from being glued to their screens day after day playing for anything from a few ticks per turn to trend day swings.

 

Is "trading for a living" possible? Of course it is! Is it difficult? Absolutely! But its difficulty is the human element with which each of us must contend, and we each must do so in our own way, for while we are all human, we each have our own set of emotional and psychological strengths and weaknesses particular to each individual.

 

"Full-time trading" is guruspeak. The goal is not to trade full-time, the goal is to replace income from labor with profit from speculation. The time demands such speculation requires ultimately is a function of what kind of trader you are because that wil dictate whether you are better suited to scalping, intra-day swing trading, days to weeks swing trading, or intermediate term swing (i.e. position) trading. Gurus speak to us in terms of the working man, and they sell us a dream by having us think f trading as we do our day jobs - you need so much per hour or per week and your goal should be to do it ":full-time." Non-sense. The goal is to make sufficient profit from speculation to cover current expenses and future needs and to do so with whatever time commitment is necessary to speculate successfully in the manner suited to you.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[natedredd10 10]

Each market has its particular characteristics and nuances.

 

I've always thought this to be total nonsense.."ohh i don't trade ES because YM lines up better with my S/R lines"...Probably more likely is your S/R lines are basically arbitrary if compared to 2 highly correlated instruments like ES/YM and giving such different results.

If you break it down to me you basically have a double auction market with price excited by volatility and bounded by arbitrage opportunity. The only other real variable is tick size.but that is more linked to your risk management and account size than the instrument.

We know CL and ES are double auctions..if you input the exact same volatility and arbitrage opportunity there would be no reason to watch both. Arbitrage opportunity can practically be ignored because we know these can't really be the same. So you are left with watching a double auction under different volatility assumptions.

If you are starting off why not watch ES/YM and NQ along with CL or corn or USD/JPY or all 4 to get more looks at the basket under different volatility regimes.

Or of course you can do what most do and "specialize"...

Personally, I have zero interest in being like most traders given the blowout rate and failure rate.

Why even stop there...why are you even interested in index futures at all? Not like you need the liquidity. As if the best cable futures trader in the world is somehow only making a few hundred bucks a week because of lack of liquidity.

Biggest swinger in pork bellies, oh yea hes broke because he doesn't have the liquidity of ES.

Why even trade futures and not etfs on margin?

 

Personally, I can't stand ES..I can't believe anyone here even bothers without maxing out liquidity on YM...For whatever reason though people are just masochists with trading and want to prove they can dance with the devil. You can't devise a harder market to trade than ES.

Edited July 29, 2010 by natedredd10

[MightyMouse 12]

One of the best essays I ever read having to do with the real basis of the question at hand can be found at Rod Roth's blog, which I shared at the reading charts thread some time ago, and can be found here: Trader's Page

 

He gets to the heart of the matter when he tells us that for a long while "I understood everything about trading but I could not be profitable until I gained emotional discipline. The ability to execute a trading plan consistently is the biggest challenge in trading because it is principally a psychological problem."

 

He then burrows into the heart of the matter when he confesses that "There are things in trading I cannot do. It matters not that these things are efficacious and that others execute them flawlessly and make lots of money. I can’t do them because the emotional part of my brain wants no part of them. Like it or not, the emotional part of my brain heavy-handedly makes most of my decisions in a trade." emphasis added

 

It was not until he admitted to himself that "I’m a trader and ...I don’t like being in the market," that he was able to settle down and identify an approach that would enable him to trade for his livelihood. You see, the original question posed by the OP is tangential to the question for which he is really seeking an answer - "What kind of trader am I, and given that, what market should I trade and how should I trade it?" And the answer to this will depend upon his ability to "know thyself." You must know your own limitiations, emotionally and psychologically, in order to identify a trading program that plays to your emotional strengths while protecting you (and your capital) from you human, all too human weaknesses.

 

Rod Roth would not make it if he were trying to be a Curtis Faith type trend follower. At the same time, I would bet that Curtis Faith would go nuts if he were made to sit in front of a monitor shooting for less than a handful of ticks 5-10 times each day. Yet each can "make a living" trading. How so? Well, I imagine that we'd all agree that what we mean by "making a living" is simply generating sufficient current income to cover current living expenses while producing a sufficient excess current income to that can be saved in such a way as to prserve current buying power for use toward future emergencies, desires, and ultimately, a period of diminished or absent income known as "retirement." The markets can provide this in many ways, some of which are hardly "full-time." I know a trader who has generated a fabulous income for 24 years as a seller of options. Most would say he is thus a "full-time" trader. However, other than options expiration day, he spends very few "whole days" trading. I aquainted with a number of traders who successfully generate solid incomes from being glued to their screens day after day playing for anything from a few ticks per turn to trend day swings.

 

Is "trading for a living" possible? Of course it is! Is it difficult? Absolutely! But its difficulty is the human element with which each of us must contend, and we each must do so in our own way, for while we are all human, we each have our own set of emotional and psychological strengths and weaknesses particular to each individual.

 

"Full-time trading" is guruspeak. The goal is not to trade full-time, the goal is to replace income from labor with profit from speculation. The time demands such speculation requires ultimately is a function of what kind of trader you are because that wil dictate whether you are better suited to scalping, intra-day swing trading, days to weeks swing trading, or intermediate term swing (i.e. position) trading. Gurus speak to us in terms of the working man, and they sell us a dream by having us think f trading as we do our day jobs - you need so much per hour or per week and your goal should be to do it ":full-time." Non-sense. The goal is to make sufficient profit from speculation to cover current expenses and future needs and to do so with whatever time commitment is necessary to speculate successfully in the manner suited to you.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

 

The common themes seem to be that it can be done, but it is very difficult and most people will lose money trying.

[brownsfan019 17]

 

Personally, I can't stand ES..I can't believe anyone here even bothers without maxing out liquidity on YM...For whatever reason though people are just masochists with trading and want to prove they can dance with the devil. You can't devise a harder market to trade than ES.

 

I couldn't agree more. The ES is a very difficult market to trade and unless you are pushing 100 ct's at a time, why force it on a market that is so hard to trade?

 

I will say that I've seen a shift in forums recently where there is more discussion on markets other than the ES; whereas at one point you'd only find discussions on the ES.

[thalestrader 14]

The common themes seem to be that it can be done, but it is very difficult and most people will lose money trying.

 

And some would belabor the point while others would move the discussion in a direction that might help a few of the many succeed. Very few children playing little league will grow up to enjoy major league careers, but we shouldn't want to discourage the kids each from participating in the sport as far as his or her talents would allow. Why should trading be any different, especially when the odds of succeeding as a trader are much higher than the odds of a child growing into a professional athlete?

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[JohnnySDG 10]

And some would belabor the point while others would move the discussion in a direction that might help a few of the many succeed. Very few children playing little league will grow up to enjoy major league careers, but we shouldn't want to discourage the kids each from participating in the sport as far as his or her talents would allow. Why should trading be any different, especially when the odds of succeeding as a trader are much higher than the odds of a child growing into a professional athlete?

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

 

Smart people don't discourage children from playing baseball and realize they are not going pro. However, the little league fields are littered with child abuse from parents who think their kid will play in the majors. Kids being hit and riduculed right in the middle of the field during a game is rampant. How much mental and physical abuse goes on off the field by the less brazen parents?

 

People delude themselves into thinking they can be pro traders in the same way. Sure the odds of becoming a trader may not be AS bad but it is still a 19-1 shot.

 

There are no "secrets" to trading just like there are no secrets to baseball. But, if 100 people spent 1 year learing from the best traders in the world they would still lose.

 

As for the eloquent definition of "making a living" you need to first make a good return on your capital than have enough capital so that % return is enough to derive an income from.

 

My goal is 1% per month. I average 1.5 - 2.5% per month. My annual returns have been between 17-30% (Note: I do not trade every month). Now, someone wants to "trade for a living" they would need a $1,000,000 account to make a good living if they could equal my returns. With a 100k account they would make 17-30k per year - hardly a living.

 

How can people possibly make a living with a 10 or 20k account? They would need 500 to 1000% returns every year to make 100K income!!!!

 

Johnny