I'm Done...

[RM686 10]

Great decision. Losing money will wreak havoc with your emotional and physical health in a very short time. Best to step away.. It took me 25 years to figure this out. You lucky you did it in 18 months.

Why do you think there are so many programs and coerces and book out there. None of this crap works.

[BOUCHE 10]

I feel your pain Mark,

 

Although I have been at this for less time than you I am not yet ready to throw in the towel, but I'm getting close. I find myself drawing the following conclusions;

1. There are no "secret" or "Time Tested" formulas or strategies

2. All the webnars, analytical data services and experts only provide blah blah information

3. When the market's up, we'll make money, When the market's down we'll loose money.Period !!

 

And If anyone out there has a system or website that can accurately predict (65%+) of upcoming trends on stocks, furures or options, please let us know....Didn't think so.

 

Lastly Mark, it pains me (eventhough I don't know you) to hear you'll be forced to go back to the 9-5 hum drum,answer 200 emails and attend 5 unproductive meetings a day. I for one am doing my best to avoid ever going back to the s&^#%y corporate world. So, Real Estate,here I come... Wanna a buy a house anyone ??

[PJ101 10]

Hi Mark,

 

I hope you don't beat yourself up too badly - every trader who's been trading very long has felt that way many many times. It's not a bad thing to trade less, take some time away, keep reading and studying. I've been a part time trader for 7 years and a fulltime trader for the last 9 months. I joined a prop firm and was also disappointed with those results. I'm going back to work myself, regrettably, but then again I was missing the "human connection" that sitting behind a computer all day just can't give a person. I found watching the charts all day and paying attention to micro markets was not for me. I'm much more of a swing trader and like paying attention to more of the macro markets. One thing's for sure - you have to figure out what kind of trader you are and find your own niche. I tend to agree with the CEO of Schonfeld trading who fired over 50 traders last week. He said that with the increase in electronic trading and statistical arbitrage, basically man vs. computer, the less experienced trader simply cannot compete. Sometimes I think we're sitting ducks. Good luck to you - I think you and your family will be much better off. You can clear your head, get a handle on the macro markets, and dabble a little in a more conservative manner. I'll bet you'll find your trading results will improve. If you'd like a really good book rec, try "Mastering the Trade" by John Carter. He's awesome. Take care!

[watchdaride 10]

I traded sort of fulltime for 2 yrs and made money then lost money . In the end it wasnt worth the stress and time to break even or lose in the end. Luckily i have an establish small business that i could go back to fulltime . I stopped for 2 yrs and have started again swing trading as a part time trader so the stress to make a living isnt there. I only do trade 4-6 per month and go on the computer 30 min in morning and 30 at night . I am making more money and less stress. I do believe trading full time makes us force trades because its our fulltimie job and if we dont trade we wont make money . Trading parttime has worked better for me and now with smart phones you dont need to be tied down to the computer .

[Minetoo 10]

Where, precisely did you throw this towel? I'm headed to the beach and need one.

[LakotaTodd 10]

Good Luck in your new path, however if you decide to return there is something that you can look at as for as price action goes. Price action that equals 21 is critical.

In the es it is as follows: 1038, 1047, 1056, 1065 and so on. These are in increments of 9.

10+3+8=21

In the YM it is as follows:

9570, 9660, 9750 and so on. Increments of 90.

Works with currencies, Gold etc.

Good Luck

 

Todd

[BOUCHE 10]

Well said MMS,

 

2% to 5% a month reps 24% to 60% per annum. I'll take that all day everyday. Where do I sign up ??

 

Good luck All,

[markl67 10]

Alright, so I took a few days off after the long weekend and I logged on out of curiosity - lot of interesting/varying responses. I sent out my resume for several, fairly crappy looking job ads, so we'll see. Just sitting here looking at these charts today and thinking about a statement that I read in a Steenbarger book where he says that trading and/or markets must be your calling. I don't feel that....unless I suppose I could make a boat load of cash and help others, etc. My problem was/is I feel like this MUST work and I think that's a dangerous mindset as I'm burning through my severance pay and savings. Anyway, thanks for the replies/support.

[kc8flq 10]

You'll be back....but take the time to clear your head, get that job to support your family, that'll bring peace of mind. And less stress, the when you return lookup strat's stress free thread and the james16 thread over at that other forum ff. Look at daily's and above only, it's the only stress free way to go about it.

 

 

Well, after 18 months of researching, demo trading, live trading, webinars, trading groups, books, magazines, I have finally decided to throw in the towel. I hate giving up, but I have a family to support and this just ain't workin', so back to looking for another 9-5 hum drum job - oh well. Good luck to everyone...

[bewa1234 10]

The TRUTH IS OUT THIER!!! Your not fighting the market, Your fighting the brokers!!!!!

[atrader123 10]

mark167,

Good luck in your future endeavors.

 

There is nothing new in rest of the post that you were not already aware of. For me, some times reading something I already knew triggers good ideas that I ignored before. In that spirit, I hope you will find rest of post useful.

 

Trading is not end of the world nor the only way under sun to earn a living. Many times it helps to take a step back to move forward. May be you are working/forcing too hard to succeed. Or may be you are burdened by other pressures that each trade and session becomes more important than what it is. I feel people make trading more complicated and struggle then it is.

 

Majority approach trading as something they should struggle day n night sacrificing themselves, pocket book and quality time with family etc. They are determined and will do whatever it takes to succeed and also analyze too hard everything. If you noticed, interestingly majority don't believe in keeping trading simple, accepting ambiguity about success and developing detachment. May be this is a factor in why majority fail in trading.

 

My personal opinion is developing these attributes automatically cultivate patience, consistency and reduce greed, fear and frustration based trading. Mind is a powerful tool there to help you and when it is not burdened by these extraneous stuff it will develop much more easily the skill needed to trade well if you still want it.

 

Bottom line, I think what you are doing is a good idea. Who knows you might find something altogether different from trading that you enjoy or you might find yourself back in trading with a deeper perspective on trading and yourself.

 

Good Luck!

[estrader21 10]

just my .02 but I think right now is maybe the worst time to quit. Can you wait until early March? There's some seasonality and summers are the toughest to trade. Best of luck either way.

[Rande Howell 10]

I have compassion for you. Trading has a unique way or forcing us to look at ourselves. Most folks invest a number of years into their development with their platform and methodology before they conclude they to re-organize themselves before they can master the tools of their trade. Check out Traders Laboratory - Professional Traders Community - Rande Howell. It may help.

[Trader Nick 10]

Yea.. It's no different they any other profession out there.. I've worked in several industries throughout my time and have gotten burnt out while trying to make a buck. My trading is gonna be the same thing in the end. In the meantime I'm having a fun time :o)

 

Not the end of the world to quit something you don't feel good about..

[MightyMouse 12]

I have compassion for you. Trading has a unique way or forcing us to look at ourselves. Most folks invest a number of years into their development with their platform and methodology before they conclude they to re-organize themselves before they can master the tools of their trade. Check out Traders Laboratory - Professional Traders Community - Rande Howell. It may help.

 

I guess anytime is a good time for a shameless plug.

[atradersuniverse 10]

Hi Mark,

 

I doubt you'll read this if you are long gone now, but I was wondering what it was that got you into trading in the first place..what was it that made you look at trading the markets for income or growth?

 

I ask this because I remember the first time I looked at trading the markets, I was in the process of looking at becoming a business owner, and found an ad on starting my own trading business. I bought a $7000 two day course that promised exactly that, to help my create a trading business. During those two days, I thought I'd died and gone to heaven. I remember saying to my dad who was with me, this is brilliant, I am in love with trading, I love this whole thing!

 

I failed! Well, initially at least.

 

To summarize what happened with the 'trading business', I was taught to build a mechanical system, using technical indicators, back test it, and if proven profitable through backtesting, then apply it in the markets, first as a paper trader and then live. That was basically it. Once I started trading live, I tripled my account in a matter of months and was making money I hadn't experienced before. Then it all fell apart.

 

 

Now, as far as trading as a skill, and by this I mean using indicators to look for buy and sell signals, they (the company I paid $7000 to), passed with flying colours. But where they failed, and miserably I might add, was they didn't teach me to be a business owner. The skill involved in actually trading, is way overrated. It is easy, a 5 year old can do it. It is being the business owner that everyone fails at.

 

For me, I first had to come to grips with the idea of bull and bear markets. My system was starting to enter the end of a bull market phase when my profits started to erode, but I wasn't aware of it until it was too late. Who was I to know of these bull and bear markets and how they effect EOD mechanical stock trading systems. A trader doesn't need to understand this, but a business owner does, just like every other business owner must understand their market.

 

Next, I then tried to become and intraday forex trader. Again failed! Why, because I didn't understand who I was. I have never been able to daytrade..it is not something I can do because I can't sit in front of a computer all day unless I'm actively doing something and it is not repetitive, but it took me a lot of time and money to learn this. I had to learn this, not as a trader but as a business owner. A business owner must know his strengths and weaknesses, and operate a business that utilizes his strengths.

 

I then had to learn that I was poor with money full stop. Again, a trader does not require money management skills, but a business owner must. A great mechanic does not necessarily make a great business owner. He must learn the skills of being a business owner too, otherwise he could fetch top dollar for his great mechanical services, but then the money seems to disappear all the time and he has no idea where it is going. This is not the job of the mechanic.

 

On the subject of money, I had the privilege of seeing my parents win the state lotto, to the tune of half a million dollars, only to be bankrupt 4 years later. When I researched this, I found that this actually occurs to 95% of lotto winners. Have you ever seen that statistic before???? I reckon you have! 95% of trader fail too, and to add to this, 95% of businesses fail. Think this is a coincidence? I don't think so.

 

The upshot of all this was that a business owner who is trading should never risk money on a trade that they would think twice about spending in real life, for example dining out. At what price point would you think twice about spending on dining out? This is your threshold, and should be applied to trading too. This may seem silly, and believe me, most will scoff at this, but if 95% of people who win large amounts of money end up losing it all and more, then it is pretty obvious, they have a huge issue with dealing with larger sums of money than they are used to. Trading is no different. If $100 expense is your threshold, it will take a considerable amount of time and trading with this as your risk amount, before you have the confidence to start risking more. And this applies to profits too. Someone with a $100 threshold will always start getting nervous once profits hit this amount and beyond. Can you see a pattern here, one of the hardest things a trader business owner will ever have to do is let their profits run according to their systems rules.

 

So, I hope this helps to open your eyes to the fact that you haven't failed as a trader, trading is easy, you have simply failed at being a business owner in the field of trading. You have to learn two skills, trading and being a business owner (and the skills required to be a business owner far exceed those required to be a trader). And discipline I might add, is not the skill required of the trader, but of the business owner.

[SIUYA 11]

atradersuniverse....

interesting take, but I have to disagree entirely as I feel you are trying to substitute excuses.

To say discipline is not the skill of a trader and does not require money management skills and to say you did not understand the different effects of a bull and bear market on EOD systems means you have not done the research as a trader. The approach of treating it like a business may be good advice but there are plenty of successful business people who also fail at trading.

Yes there are traits that are useful in both endeavors, however there are also some that are fundamentally different.

[Kiwi 16]

Dean is an internet marketer spamming for customers Siuya. All is bait and bullshit.

[markl67 10]

I wouldn't say I'm long gone, but I do have one foot out the door for sure. I'm basically watching and demo trading several strategies that I've "backtested". I use the term backtested loosely because I've seen that backtested strategies have also failed for me in real time - why? I don't know...and trust me the backtesting has been thorough - tick by tick through various trends and volatility - ad nauseum. As someone pointed out perhaps my expectations are skewed and/or I just have a hard time stomaching draw downs (risk averse).

 

I'm keeping in touch with the markets for now in between looking at job ads, sending out resumes and talking to recruiters about my skills and why I would be the best person for the job, etc. etc.

[Tams 20]

to some, trading is an obsessive compulsive disease, no different from drugs, alcohol, or gambling. (or sex to Tiger). Once you are hooked, there is no escape until the house and wife are gone.

[MightyMouse 12]

to some, trading is an obsessive compulsive disease, no different from drugs, alcohol, or gambling. (or sex to Tiger). Once you are hooked, there is no escape until the house and wife are gone.

 

Tams, you can get rid of your wife by trading? Is there a indicator for that?

[markl67 10]

to some, trading is an obsessive compulsive disease, no different from drugs, alcohol, or gambling. (or sex to Tiger). Once you are hooked, there is no escape until the house and wife are gone.

 

I can feel the "pull" - I'm not going to be one of those statistics...

[SIUYA 11]

Tams, you can get rid of your wife by trading? Is there a indicator for that?

 

when the account goes to zero and the wife goes with it then it indicates you may have had more than just a trading problem

[BlowFish 10]

I wouldn't say I'm long gone, but I do have one foot out the door for sure. I'm basically watching and demo trading several strategies that I've "backtested". I use the term backtested loosely because I've seen that backtested strategies have also failed for me in real time - why? I don't know...and trust me the backtesting has been thorough - tick by tick through various trends and volatility - ad nauseum. As someone pointed out perhaps my expectations are skewed and/or I just have a hard time stomaching draw downs (risk averse).

 

I'm keeping in touch with the markets for now in between looking at job ads, sending out resumes and talking to recruiters about my skills and why I would be the best person for the job, etc. etc.

 

Sounds as if you are leaning towards mechanical trading, is that the case? I just wondered to try and determine whether the problem is with the system(s) or with your execution.

 

Your spot on about risk btw. I have a hunch that while people can intellectually accept the concept of risk, emotionally draw downs and a streak of losers can be pretty hard to stomach even knowing they are inevitable and a normal part of trading. The tricky thing of course is knowing whether they are 'normal' or 'abnormal'. This is something that is a bit easier the more mechanical your system incidentally.

[markl67 10]

Yes, I think a mechanical system would be best for my controlling type personality - set it and forget it. So that's what I tried to come up with - breakout strategy using 5000 share bar on the TF. Backtested back to Jan 4 with great results - 69% win with a 1:1.2 ratio. So, here's me a couple weeks ago, "oh yeah baby, I got this thing, screw you corporate america". So, I began real time trading it and promptly took 3 losses in a row to the tune of $450 each, so I stopped and said WTH. The last time this thing took 3 losses in a row was 5 months ago! So, then I start thinking about conspiracy theories, mkt manipulation, etc....