EasyLanguage Going Object Oriented !

[Tams 20]

EasyLanguage going Object Oriented

 

http://help.tradestation.com/09_00/ELObject/elobject.htm

[Tams 20]

lots of Object Oriented Programming tutorials on Youtube.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Tams

[BlowFish 10]

It will be interesting to see if they retain the "easy" part of EasyLanguage whilst introducing this. Whilst OO does provide some advantages I am still not convinced that it's benefits outweigh the dis-advantages for smaller projects. Things that take minutes and a dozen or two lines in EL seem to take hours to day(s) and pages of code in more OO languages. As I have said before I am a dinosaur....perhaps that is something to do with it

[UrmaBlume 10]

As long term users of Trade Station we find great value in that these objects will finally replace the POS Trade Manager. Finally objects that represent a true/real order management protocol for use within EL for the development of automated systems. The only place I can see where these particular objects will be of hlep to the point and click traders is that finally stops can be made to be persistent.

 

Finally it looks like TS is not only catching up but maybe playing a little leap-frog. Of most importance to us in the new TS 9 are the millisecond time stamping, test inside the bars for volume charts and of course the new order management objects for EL.

 

About time TS.

[BlowFish 10]

Certainly agree about the ms time stamping. Hard to take TS seriously as a platform until that is introduced.

 

The trade objects sound like a great idea but I was talking more about converting EL to a fully OOPs implementation. Whether you instantiate a new trade object or invoke a function that adds a trade record to a linked list doesn't really matter too much (to me).

 

Incidentally I meant to ask if they have made an official announcement about ms time stamping? Obviously it will come if they want to remain competitive just wondered if they are trumpeting about it yet.

 

As an aside Neoticker has had all this stuff since......I dunno... when it was launched way back when. Still a great choice for retail traders who require tick precision and a whole lot more. (I have no connection with TickQuest).

[UrmaBlume 10]

I attended a conference with their development staff almost 4 months ago and they let us know about the time stamping etc.

 

We have almost changed to Neo-Ticker several times over these issues but we have been assured that all will be implemented over the next few months.

 

We have a huge body of code in EL and have been loath to move, now it looks like we wont have to.

[Tams 20]

I attended a conference with their development staff almost 4 months ago and they let us know about the time stamping etc.

 

We have almost changed to Neo-Ticker several times over these issues but we have been assured that all will be implemented over the next few months.

 

We have a huge body of code in EL and have been loath to move, now it looks like we wont have to.

 

have you tried those codes in MultiCharts?

they do sub-minute analysis.

[UrmaBlume 10]

have you tried those codes in MultiCharts?

they do sub-minute analysis.

 

No Tams, we have not run in MultiCharts.

 

Our software engineer ran MC for a month and vetoed it as a candidate for us because of reasons too far under the cover for me to fully understand. His verdict was that if we were to change from TS it would be TT or NeoTicker.

 

I for one couln't be more delighted at the channges proposed for TS 9 and hope they live up to their promise.

 

UB

[Tams 20]

do you know if the new TradeStation will be multi-threaded?

[UrmaBlume 10]

do you know if the new TradeStation will be multi-threaded?

 

Oh, that it would be true, I have heard rumors both ways.

[Tams 20]

if that is true... then you might have a handful converting your codes.

many dlls written for TradeStation

do not run well in MultiCharts...

especially those doing sub-minute analysis

because multi-thread can cause timing issues.

[UrmaBlume 10]

if that is true... then you might have a handful converting your codes.

many dlls written for TradeStation

do not run well in MultiCharts...

especially those doing sub-minute analysis

because multi-thread can cause timing issues.

 

We don't care about MC. If we have to leave TS it won't be for MC which my guy pronounces as fatally flawed - his opinion and only as it relates to certain of our very specific needs.

 

If the TS 9 fails to fulfill its promise we will most probably move to Neo-Ticker for our automated systems and leave our point and click traders in TS.

 

cheers

 

UB

[Tams 20]

We don't care about MC. If we have to leave TS it won't be for MC which my guy pronounces as fatally flawed - his opinion and only as it relates to certain of our very specific needs.

 

If the TS 9 fails to fulfill its promise we will most probably move to Neo-Ticker for our automated systems and leave our point and click traders in TS.

 

cheers

 

UB

 

that's not my point... I am not suggesting MC.

 

I am saying, if TS goes multi-thread...

your codes/dlls might encounter the same problem some people had when they tried to use them in MC.

[UrmaBlume 10]

that's not my point... I am not suggesting MC.

 

I am saying, if TS goes multi-thread...

your codes/dlls might encounter the same problem some people had when they tried to use them in MC.

 

If the update fulfills its promise we would consider redoing some dlls and other code a very cheap price to pay compared with having to redo everything.

[BlowFish 10]

have you tried those codes in MultiCharts?

they do sub-minute analysis.

 

Sadly they (like Ninja in it's current implementation) only store historical data to second resolution (better but no cigar). I think I have made them aware that this is an issue, I am not sure I managed to get across how important it is to a whole segment of their target audience. Whilst currently they offer a slightly better product in many different ways to TS there slavish devotion to maintaining what is essentially a TS clone is a double edged sword. On the plus side you get easylanguage...... not only is it easy but lightening fast to develop stuff (I too have a vast library of code and code snippets in EL) on the downside they are emulating what is essentially and archaic platform including numerous weaknesses.

 

Sounds like there will be quite a lot of re-architecting involved to provide some of these features. Hopefully they will use this opportunity to start with a relatively clean slate.

 

P.S. I still have a soft spot for MC & TS if they could correct a few core issues they would not come with a whole heap of frustration too!

[BlowFish 10]

We don't care about MC. If we have to leave TS it won't be for MC which my guy pronounces as fatally flawed - his opinion and only as it relates to certain of our very specific needs.

 

If the TS 9 fails to fulfill its promise we will most probably move to Neo-Ticker for our automated systems and leave our point and click traders in TS.

 

cheers

 

UB

 

I'd be quite interested what those are? Are they as Tams summises to do with multi-threading and timing? Whilst they seem to have addressed those I still have observed what I believe to be some issues even with MC restricted to a single core. I passed them (TSSuport) details of my observations with some sample code (written to highlight potential problems) and results but don't really have the energy to take it further. I am interested in what your guy found as I wonder if it coincides with my suspicions.

[Tams 20]

I'd be quite interested what those are? Are they as Tams summises to do with multi-threading and timing? Whilst they seem to have addressed those I still have observed what I believe to be some issues even with MC restricted to a single core. I passed them (TSSuport) details of my observations with some sample code (written to highlight potential problems) and results but don't really have the energy to take it further. I am interested in what your guy found as I wonder if it coincides with my suspicions.

 

restricting to a single core is not enough,

you have to disable multi-threading.

Intel website has instruction on how to do that.

[BlowFish 10]

restricting to a single core is not enough,

you have to disable multi-threading.

Intel website has instruction on how to do that.

 

<doh> You are quite correct caching and translation look aside buffers can present problems. I still don't think that is what is causing what I am seeing but I will test again. Thanks for the heads up.

[natedredd10 10]

lots of Object Oriented Programming tutorials on Youtube.

 

There is no sense in going out of your way to learn OOP...

You don't lose money from admitting that you can't stand the OOP paradigm personally....OOP is for computer scientist, not for the "hackers" like basically anyone reading this.

This is a great announcement from the standpoint of the computer scientists it will lure into giving stuff away to hackers and the easy to use functions that will eventually become standard easy language stuff for "dummies"...

The only reason to jump on this is if you want to sell stuff easylang wise.

 

Neoticker is an overpriced POS that to me seems to have been written in visual basic ...great concepts behind the project but it ran out of steam years ago, it was too ambitious for its time. If there was any juice left in the project it would have been rewrote 2 years ago.

Ninja is the opposite of neoticker...most ultra modern retail software, trying so desperately to smash the 2005 version of tradestation, but they have opened up too many can of worms to not get koed with the next TS release...

I went with IB over tradestation when I started out just because the TWS demo made me feel safer than the nothing from TS.

TS management is clearly brilliant in letting the competition hang themselves, learn from then then go in for the kill..

I watched a little CNBC at my parents today for the first time since the crisis and noticed a thinkorswim commercial...They have black boxed trading functions like in modular audio software(reaktor, Sync,Kyma) that you dont need to know a language, just concepts and then connect wires. I didn't see a tradestation commercial....I remember seeing TS commercials on CNBC when I started trading.

Ditmar, if you really have managements ear you should try to convince them to make a better demo...I'm sure I'm not the only one who is not going to basically escrow tradestation $5K to demo their platform. Maybe that made sense with limited alternatives, but that was half a decade ago. I'm almost certain they would have got a piece of my business if they had any rational sense of a "demo version" of the software...Putting 5k in escrow for a software demo to me would only make sense with like 50mil to swing % wise, just to demo a product..Its just totally unreasonable and why Ninja is not out of business, yet.

[BlowFish 10]

Have you actually used Neoticker for anything? Your comments reveal more about you and your level of understanding than they do Neoticker. Read less do more!

 

Love it or hate it, Neoticker is an absolutely remarkable piece of software. It did stuff at launch that most developers are just starting to dream about today (and realising that there architectures dont support it, hence this thread). As an example just properly time stamping data coupled with the option of reconstructing historical bars tick by tick (across multiple data streams) means you can do full order book analysis on live and historic data with Neo, always could. Even today there are are few packages (if any) that can deliver complete precision to those that require it.

 

Sure it is a little bit cumbersome to learn the architecture and API but on the plus side you can program it directly using any modern language (as well as there own scripting (formula) language). The architecture allows you to do pretty much whatever you can imagine and did do from day 1. It certainly does not need rewriting as it was architected properly to start with. Whilst many softcos struggle to deliver multi reliable multi threading Tickquest launch grid computing and multi instancing. You have to chuckle.

[Tams 20]

Neoticker was written in Borland's app engine, probably as far opposite of Visual Basic as you can get on the application development spectrum.

[swisstrader 10]

if that is true... then you might have a handful converting your codes.

many dlls written for TradeStation

do not run well in MultiCharts...

especially those doing sub-minute analysis

because multi-thread can cause timing issues.

 

Tams, they all are running in MC, you have to call them ONLY with command 'DefineDLLFunc' and not with command 'external', then the converted code works perfectly in MultiCharts. I like MultiCharts!

 

-swisstrader

[BlowFish 10]

. I like MultiCharts!

 

-swisstrader

 

Me too Just need to get them to store stuff with millisecond (or better) time stamps and to really make sure the multi threaded stuff is 101% rock solid. Having an option to build bars from multiple streams historical data tick by tick would be nice too. One of the reasons I am keen for Tradestation to make an official announcement about some of these things is it is likely to get TSSupport to accelerate their scheduling!

 

btw Nate despite strongly disagreeing about Neo, I am inclined to agree with you about OOPs in general . I would have settled for TS introducing more flexibility with functions and procedures, support for libraries and full control over scope of variables. You still need core tools to write manageable monolithic code.

 

As for Ninja that is a graphic example of how architecture is far far far more important than methodology. Despite Ninja utilising an OOP paradigm within a managed framework and despite just having been largely 're-written" (v7) Raymond has pretty much admitted that to implement the precision that users are demanding will require substantial portions of code to be re written (again).

[swisstrader 10]

Me too Just need to get them to store stuff with millisecond (or better) time stamps and to really make sure the multi threaded stuff is 101% rock solid. Having an option to build bars from multiple streams historical data tick by tick would be nice too. One of the reasons I am keen for Tradestation to make an official announcement about some of these things is it is likely to get TSSupport to accelerate their scheduling!

 

btw Nate despite strongly disagreeing about Neo, I am inclined to agree with you about OOPs in general . I would have settled for TS introducing more flexibility with functions and procedures, support for libraries and full control over scope of variables. You still need core tools to write manageable monolithic code.

 

As for Ninja that is a graphic example of how architecture is far far far more important than methodology. Despite Ninja utilising an OOP paradigm within a managed framework and despite just having been largely 're-written" (v7) Raymond has pretty much admitted that to implement the precision that users are demanding will require substantial portions of code to be re written (again).

 

BlowFish,

could you explain me please for what do you need millisecond timestamps exactly? If I understood the reason I could try to use my 'very friendly good connections' to ...

 

We are too late with our technique or we rent a server directly in the server farms of the exchange. There are already 'listener servers' placed by the big boyz to be faster than we small fishes.

 

Let's trade automatically in the forex and with a timeframe of our leaque than to try to piss with big dogs and can't move the leg not high enough ... :rofl:

 

Best regards from hot Zurich

swisstrader

[BlowFish 10]

Sure...You need to be able to operate on historical data and have the same results as from live data. A great example of this is the wealth of market delta type indicators available for TS/MC. They all of course only work on live data. There are many many other cases. Put GBP.USD USD.EUR & EUR.GPB on a chart live calculations will be completely different to historical ones as with the history the best resolution you can get is 1 second completely destroying the sequencing with respect to the other pairs.

 

Basically the current architecture rules out anything that requires precision beyond a second which further rules anything where the order that the ticks arrived in is important to you. It shuts down a whole (increasingly important) area of analysis in one fell swoop. TSsupport are aware of the issue, however I do not think they understand the importance of them. They will when there competitors (under increasing pressure) offer solutions.

 

I had pretty good connections within TSsupport but I find it frustrating that sometime (often) they just don't get it (clearly no traders on the team). I wish they had a Lawrence Chan (Neoticker) . Even Raymond over at Ninja finally gets it though sadly it was after they had gone too far down a blind alley with NT 7.0 (upshot is it will not be seen for a while). Half of the stuff TSSuport introduce is essentially worthless (beyond ticking boxes in feature lists or seducing gullible wannabes) without the internal precision to make the results meaningful. (note: I am not saying that us guys that are using it are gullible wanabes just that if you think you can not do any sort of real quantitative work that requires any sort of precision in the time domain you are misguided). A real shame, and frustrating as hell. I still like the product but it could be so much better if they really listened and understood some of the issues. As an aside I think it is pretty much one guy (best to remain nameless) who is always defensive and intransigent, sadly he seems to carry some sway.

 

As an aside one of the things that makes me laugh (and cry) is how they will copy a bug or really badly implemented 'feature' In TS. (How volume is reported in P&F charts springs to mind) On the plus side if Tradestation implement millisecond or better precision you can bet that MC will follow. That's why I am keen to see TS make an announcement that will carry more weight than any rational argument. If TS blew it's foot off MC would be sure to follow. :D