Trading Without a Chart

[NowTheMoment 10]

  evroom1 said:

I have run into a guy who claims to trade without the use of a chart. Just pure price. On only one axis. From this he claims to be able to see support and resistance from which he sets his trades.

My question is " Is this even Possible ?" This method is more than just tape reading or some Gann method I believe.

Can anyone shed any light on the subject.

 

Of course you can trade without a chart. The Local traders in the CME pit do it all day. No charts, pure order flow. When you go shopping do you carry a list of items to buy? Do you chart the sale items?

 

Or do you just buy what you need and discover your neighbor bought the same item cheaper last week?

[nagesh 10]

trading without reading charts is possible only in tape reading strategy i doubt anyone can do this it is just like blind man crossing the traffic road.

[TheNegotiator 13]

I'd sooner trade without charts at all than have to trade using some traders' charts!! I think it's a good exercise although I wouldn't do it every day. You have to have a good memory for areas of importance and you have to understand the significance of activity which has happened throughout the day. I doubt pit traders even will never look at charts. Even if you trade off order flow, know the big picture is really important and so reviewing charts each day before and after is still important.

 

Ultimately, charts can be misleading though if you don't know what you are looking for and you haven't set them up correctly.

[DionysusToast 10]

Here is my take on it.

 

It is possible to scalp off the DOM, no question about it.

 

It is possible to take position day trades off the DOM. I do it on the Treasuries and although a chart isn't used a volume profile is. XTrader has a volume profile on the DOM as fo a lot of other products. From this you can see highs/lows and areas that it cut through like butter as opposed to areas where there was a lot of consolidation. Long term charts are also used but not necessarily referenced intra-day. Look at a longer term chart, remember the most relevant price points. Job done.

 

You also do need to have a decent short term memory as it helps to know where price got stuck throughout the day.

 

The more intra-day swings an instrument puts in the LESS you are able to rely solely on the DOM. Or rather, the less I am. The treasuries put in very few intra-day swings but CL puts in 30 or more. It is these swing points that are also pain points to a lot of other traders.

 

On an instrument like the ES, I cannot trade purely off the DOM. I need to be able to see the intraday swings. In an up move, you might see an iceberg on the offer and 3-4000 contracts hit it. Still, it'll just carry on up, cutting through like a knife through butter. On the other hand if it's pulling back down in an up move and you see the same thing on the bid, it's a good opportunity for a long.

 

Everyone uses it in a different way. For me, I need context and in the treasuries the volume profile is sufficient. On the ES, the volume profile is not sufficient, so I use an intraday chart too.

 

For CL/YM - not my cup of tea. Very different from reading DOM on a thick market, although I keep promising myself to have a serious look one day.

[elovemer 10]

you don't need a chart to put an order in to buy below friday's low

[Obsidian 10]

yea you don't need a chart to lose money.

it is like playing chess without a board...besides it does not give any benefit other than satisfying ego...imvho

[winstonsmith 10]

LOL at the notion of trading - especially daytrading - without a chart....

 

This is like Mr. Miyagi trying to catch a fly with chopsticks...

 

You might get lucky, but 99.99% of the time, things aren't gonna turn out well.

[evroom1 10]

I wish I would have posted the orginal question differently. Instead of "is trading off just the DOM possible" It should have read "How does one trade using just the DOM?"

 

For those that posted that way I wish to thank you all. For the rest I hope you did not waste too much of your time.

The fact is trading just using the DOM is possible but not easy. Looking at a chart provides so much more information at a glance than any DOM. Get your action numbers from a chart then close down the chart and wait for your numbers to show up on the DOM. Then take the advise of a good floor trader and learn to read the BID Ask to sharpen your entry if that helps you.

 

In my research I found that most traders that claimed to trade from just the DOM always used some other additional information as well. Think algos. Think open close or many others.

Good trading to all

[elovemer 10]

you don't need a chart to put an order in to buy below tuesday's low

[anituchka 10]

I know somebody who uses automated strategy and no chart at all. The person who I know, uses Excel that tells him when to enter and exit.

[Obsidian 10]

  anituchka said:

I know somebody who uses automated strategy and no chart at all. The person who I know, uses Excel that tells him when to enter and exit.

 

if we could store all of those price data in our brain, we would not need charts...charts are visual output of historical data

[Whidbey Island 10]

Biggest problem in trading is trading itself... It in itself attracts people who think it should be easy. There is a reason 1% take money from the 99%.... From my experience 99% are lazy aces :crap: trading can be hard, cut throat & ruthless. Reality is why would I benefit from explaining to you what I do to take your money tomorrow to line my pocket? Good conscience?

 

Let me give you more help than I ever received.....

 

Please use your indicators, use trading systems curve fit to price bars & things that are easily back tested. Show everyone a chart where price touched your lines perfect & please go long the next time price sells off into your line.... I have met 100's of people you all think are guru's, if you only knew what was discussed at dinner over a bottle of booze. Most of them don't trade (Successfully anyway) but have a great marketing plan..

 

FYI: One individual (Who shall remain nameless because he is widely known...) said this at dinner after 1/2 bottle of wine....,"Nobody is interested in the truth, they just want the garbage that doesn't work.... so we sell it to them & why not if we don't someone else will".

 

My advice to you put down the gimmicks, look at what the pro's are using because it does work & once you figure out that I'm right. You'll kick yourself for not doing it sooner & then your about 10,000 hrs from being a successful trader & that's if you can hold your emotions in check.

 

If you really want this you'll get there but you really have to want it..... There's no low hanging fruit here.... No such thing as a free lunch & you get what you pay for (at least they will make you think that when they try to sell you their b.s wares)

[bidie 10]

That's about the size of it-

 

  Whidbey Island said:

Biggest problem in trading is trading itself... It in itself attracts people who think it should be easy. There is a reason 1% take money from the 99%.... From my experience 99% are lazy aces :crap: trading can be hard, cut throat & ruthless. Reality is why would I benefit from explaining to you what I do to take your money tomorrow to line my pocket? Good conscience?

 

Let me give you more help than I ever received.....

 

Please use your indicators, use trading systems curve fit to price bars & things that are easily back tested. Show everyone a chart where price touched your lines perfect & please go long the next time price sells off into your line.... I have met 100's of people you all think are guru's, if you only knew what was discussed at dinner over a bottle of booze. Most of them don't trade (Successfully anyway) but have a great marketing plan..

 

FYI: One individual (Who shall remain nameless because he is widely known...) said this at dinner after 1/2 bottle of wine....,"Nobody is interested in the truth, they just want the garbage that doesn't work.... so we sell it to them & why not if we don't someone else will".

 

My advice to you put down the gimmicks, look at what the pro's are using because it does work & once you figure out that I'm right. You'll kick yourself for not doing it sooner & then your about 10,000 hrs from being a successful trader & that's if you can hold your emotions in check.

 

If you really want this you'll get there but you really have to want it..... There's no low hanging fruit here.... No such thing as a free lunch & you get what you pay for (at least they will make you think that when they try to sell you their b.s wares)

[Arullo 10]

Evroom, you can trade just using a market depth or Dom trader by using the volume at each price as support or resistance. It's a bit tricky at first but with a few screen hours you'll start to see it. That would be guess as to what that guy does. Thoughts or revelations?

[TheDude 10]

  Arullo said:

Evroom, you can trade just using a market depth or Dom trader by using the volume at each price as support or resistance. It's a bit tricky at first but with a few screen hours you'll start to see it. That would be guess as to what that guy does. Thoughts or revelations?

 

forget it.

 

evrooom has shown everyone her colours already. she starts this thread asking people for help, argues against everyone who offers help, then starts a thread apparently about some tiered old system sold widely on the internet - well thats what i assume it is. im too busy to look at any such drivel in depth.

 

my guess is that shes a vendor waiting to spring a rehash system on the terminally stupid.

[Roger Felton 10]

What's so hard about trading without a chart? Charts only tell you what a particular market did in hindsight. They're just another indicator. Who needs 'em.

 

When I fly I never use instruments. Pilots should already know if they are airborne or still on the runway. Who needs a compass when you have the sun? Maps and GPS are for sissies. If you don't know where the heck you are, what business do you have trying to go anywhere?

 

Traders always get bogged down with useless stuff like charts and other such nonsense. Hillary Clinton never looked a chart and she never lost a trade in cattle futures. You can't be a pansy all your life. Toss those charts and trade macho. A blindfold would be a nice touch, too.

[Kiwi 16]

Have you been drinking Roger?

 

We all know why she received the money she was given ... and she really only needed to open an account so that they could pay up. She didn't even need to look at the price.

[DionysusToast 10]

I'll risk getting hung, drawn & quartered for spamming the board....

 

There's a free lesson on here: Order Flow - Now that you can read it

 

This isn't really specific to the products I sell, it'll applies whatever DOM you choose - be it mine or XTrader/CQG etc.

 

It is specifically about throwing away your charts in order to learn to trade off the DOM.

 

Not necessarily throwing them away permanently... Just during the learning process.

Edited June 17, 2012 by DionysusToast

[Obsidian 10]

  Roger Felton said:

What's so hard about trading without a chart? Charts only tell you what a particular market did in hindsight. They're just another indicator. Who needs 'em.

 

When I fly I never use instruments. Pilots should already know if they are airborne or still on the runway. Who needs a compass when you have the sun? Maps and GPS are for sissies. If you don't know where the heck you are, what business do you have trying to go anywhere?

 

Traders always get bogged down with useless stuff like charts and other such nonsense. Hillary Clinton never looked a chart and she never lost a trade in cattle futures. You can't be a pansy all your life. Toss those charts and trade macho. A blindfold would be a nice touch, too.

 

just out of curiosity, isn't renko an instrument?

[Roger Felton 10]

  Kiwi said:

Have you been drinking Roger?

 

We all know why she received the money she was given ... and she really only needed to open an account so that they could pay up. She didn't even need to look at the price.

 

Kiwi, Kiwi, Kiwi....tisk tisk tisk....how can you say such a thing about such a fine woman who almost became our President? Are you suggesting she cheated?

 

Well, so am I....but I think you and I are the only ones who figured it out...

[DionysusToast 10]

  Obsidian said:

just out of curiosity, isn't renko an instrument?

 

Is that like a banjo?

[MightyMouse 12]

  Roger Felton said:

Kiwi, Kiwi, Kiwi....tisk tisk tisk....how can you say such a thing about such a fine woman who almost became our President? Are you suggesting she cheated?

 

Well, so am I....but I think you and I are the only ones who figured it out...

 

There was nothing wrong with those trades. The missing information is what would have occurred if the trades lost. Not what occurred by the trades winning. In the end, it was in fact, a lucky break.

[Roger Felton 10]

  MightyMouse said:

There was nothing wrong with those trades. The missing information is what would have occurred if the trades lost. Not what occurred by the trades winning. In the end, it was in fact, a lucky break.

 

You bet, MM. You gotta admire the "luck" of anyone who knows nothing about trading cattle futures yet can make hundreds of trades and never lose. Not even once. She's a trading icon in my book.

[Roger Felton 10]

  Obsidian said:

just out of curiosity, isn't renko an instrument?

 

Is a tick, range, volume, Heiken Ashi or minute chart an instrument? Not by my definition.

[MightyMouse 12]

  Roger Felton said:

You bet, MM. You gotta admire the "luck" of anyone who knows nothing about trading cattle futures yet can make hundreds of trades and never lose. Not even once. She's a trading icon in my book.

 

Thousands of trades. No wait. Hundreds of thousands of trades.You should really get your facts straight before you begin to condemn someone. Isn't that what you profess? She did in fact have losing trades. Sorry, I don't get my information from a saloon.

 

It is always fun to provide a know it all some facts.