Trading Without a Chart

[tradingRAW 10]

"Tape reading still looks at prints that occurred in the past, albeit the immediate past" not so..there are elements in the tape that can help a trader spot shift coming.

[hunter1 10]

No tape reading does not depend on looking at old prints. What has just printed is not what matters. What is about to print is what you are reading. Are they hitting the bid or ask at the right area. Hitting bid at support = buy hitting ask at R = sell.

[tradingRAW 10]

i trading mainly base on tape, you can develope a feel for strenght or weakness. there are allot of other things one can look at and its not only prints its bid/ask updates after print, what i call referencing. there is narrowing of spread, how it narrow can give an astute tape reader sense of direction. other thinges are uptick bid, offer on minus, perfect prints...these will never been seen on a chart.

[BlowFish 10]

"Tape reading still looks at prints that occurred in the past, albeit the immediate past" not so..there are elements in the tape that can help a trader spot shift coming.

 

Yes so. You are looking at historic prints to anticipate future events. I am not disputing that one can use the tape to anticipate changes but it is still looking at past events to gauge future events. Ones a trade prints it is history, sure it is recent history (a few 10's of milliseconds) but it is history. Agree with your other comments and am not disputing that you might not see things on a regular bar chart that you can see on the tape.

 

Incidentally there are ways of visualising data that can reveal things that previously you would have needed to look at the dom to see. A good example is market delta's suff, even though it only looks at the first level of the order book it gives an idea of what is possible. Whether you call that a 'chart' or not is debatable I guess. I'v attached a couple of images with stuff that I have fiddled with. They give an idea of visualisations that are possible, you don't really get the full effect as they are dynamic updating with every order book change and print but they give an idea of what is possible. Are they still 'charts'?

[tradingRAW 10]

I agree with what you are saying, I can recall in my early years as a prop trader...I couldn't live without my real-time charts, but found out tape reading is far superior. Tape reading in modern day sense is the modern day quote screen having these elements: Bid, Ask, Last Print, Bid/Asksize, High, Low, Net Change. Last Prints are not the only thing available to a skillful tape reader unlike charts which tracks prints. Elements I mention and the way it interacts with prints leads and to a skillful reader can sense strength and weakness. Here's an example of tape reading on youtube. The chart above is there for those who are more visually oriented but positions are manage solely on reading the tape(quote screen).

 

[stevenxcel 10]

At Brooks Price Action - Home Al Brooks trades with just the 5 minute candles and the 20 pema. And his live daily room is cheap. He is excellent and his book is good but very technical in nature. He has taught me alot - good luck!

[BlowFish 10]

I have spent quite a lot of time trying to learn to read the tape over the years. Apart from forming the basis of a scalping strategy in it's own right it is no doubt a useful skill to finesse entries for other types of trades. I think I probably have the principles down but sometimes have trouble seeing things when it is all happening quickly. Some times things flip around pretty darn quick. That is the appeal of a more visual orientated approach. I am pretty good with 'spatial' stuff but a bit slow with numbers. No doubt that could be improved with practice. The bigger issue is not so much the flitting around of the numbers but realising that a scenario that you have correctly identified has 'failed'. In fact sometimes something will appear to 'fail' only to move a couple of ticks and then have the bulls/bears re-assert themselves. I think it is probably a bit more 'art' than science.

 

Where you taught 'the tape' in the prop shop you worked at?

[Minetoo 10]

Absolutely possible. Used to work in a prop shop, the top trader just used Level Two and Time and Sales and made a killing. Many tried to duplicate his efforts but to no avail.

[bobcollett 10]

My stock broker, who is also my golf partner, who is also my friend for 40 years, trades without charts. In fact he looks down on any form of chart reader. His method is something like this.You watch the Bid and the Offer on a fast moving high volume stock..If the bid is $10 and the offer is $10.20 and the sale goes through at $10, there are more sellers than buyers. If this changes and the sale goes through at $10.20, there are more buyers than sellers.The bid will now change to $10.20 and the offer will move up.Its a big share so there are lots of sales at the same price before a change.BUY.Its a pure scalp and you take small profits with a 1% stop loss.Its easy if you are a stock broker--- you dont pay brokerage !!!!

[tradingRAW 10]

Tape is just one element to successul trading. If stocks fail to follow through then all execution tools whether it maybe tape or charts will fail. So the element of content plays a critical role in a person consistent success. Stocks must have a catalyst to drive coordinated buying and selling amongst market participants. I've posted about 27 daily videos back to back to show some transparency that day trading can be done. Yes its hard but its all about skill development. I gauge level one, level II can work but allot of size dissappear and you can get wacked if your a bid/ask size fronter.

[Kiwi 16]

Also he's just doing it for fun. Like a reactive computer game. His real money comes from the mug punters like all stock and futures brokers.

 

Personally I think tape reading is something some could learn to do well for short timeframe trading. You'd need an exceptional, or maybe a good but very well trained memory, to make it work on longer timeframes.

 

Your mate, bob, is displaying the typical arrogance of someone who doesn't understand another method. Which is: the thing I don't do is rubbish. The market wizards series shows it even in the best with fundies saying I've never met a technical trader who made money and guys like Seykota and Eckhardt well able to put the opposite point of view.

 

One of the most difficult things in this game is that you get all this:

--- xxx doesn't work

--- xxx does but you can't do it, dipstick

and its damned hard to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

FWIW my stuff works

[tradingRAW 10]

Here's a demonstration of me tape reading RHT and managing it strictly with the tape. Hope it helps.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CAVgB2mS5s]YouTube - day trading in action 9-23-2010[/ame]

[zChartist 10]

I guess everybody's experience is different. I tried to trade by price only (without charts) and my personal experience was a Wash. Half the times I would win & half the times I would lose. Being able to see the formation of a technical chart definitely increases my perception & odds...

[leobust 10]

Trading whout charts:

Pit traders does this since the creation of the markets.

I used to do this when I still got my day job and cant open a realtime chart.

I'm still doing it now whenever I'm not on my trading desk

I use my iPhone or my small laptop to trade when travelling.

 

Of course, I have to do all the market analysis on weekends and the night before trading using charts. On the trading day, i dont have to look at the chart, only Support/Resistance levels and the DOM.

[daytrader50 10]

Room,

 

First of all i hope this guys name doesnt start with the word "king". If so you have I would say a 99% chance of being scammed. Second of all. I am interested in something unique like that myself. Hell, Im sure even us diehard traders get sick of watching for patterns to set up or candles to leave the right tail or whatever we are looking for. Chart watching is also a very lonely isolated experience because after your day is done, you cant even really describe what made you take a trade even if its another trader you are talking to because you 'have to be there." And to the guy who keeps busting your chops about wanting to promote someone, does this mean if I ask questions about how good so and so's system is I will get bounced for soliciting? I sure hope this board isnt that kind of anal.lol Anyway, please keep us posted on this. I myself was actually thinking of experimenting with strictly using charts but no moving averages or indicators in demo for a month just to sharpen my skills. Anyone here ever do that? And about Jesse Livermore not using charts, I dont disagree. But me thinks there are little "edges" he had just by being in the time period he was in we will never know about as he likely never told anyone!

[tradingRAW 10]

I had posted a link to demonstrate how tape reading can be done consistently where I desktop record my trades daily for a one month period. I appologize to the moderator if I came off as a spammer because I have links to my commercial website. I removed them so that now it can be just a free educational site. Originally my youtube site was a means to share my trades with my remote group traders but it has found some success to the public and now I like to share it in attempt to help others better their trading. Only tape reading can allow a trader confidence to take size and not feel like your gambling, there are patterns in the tape that dictate strenght and weakness. But what's most important through my 10+ years as a day trader is really not charts or tape its about what it is you are trading and why it must move. So before tape or chart you better have stocks that have some sort of catalyst to drive prices in either direction otherwise any tools you use to help enter a trade will fail do to the lack of follow through.

 

I think what turns people off to my style is that its very skills oriented, I'm in and out allot working the trade until some sort of smoothing affect happens in the stock and i go for the kill with size usually 10k which might not be allot for bigger traders. I'm almost one on one with the tape and drawing pivots along the way.

[evroom1 10]

day trade

Jesse was a superior tape reader. He could remember the numbers and knew where to play them. He also lost alot. This board may very well be anal for some of the members. Even suggesting that you do not need a chart full of incidators or even a naked chart will draw out the worst in people.

No this is not Kingfish lol or any kind of fish. As I said a few times before he is not selling anything, not promoting anything, and not asking anything from us at all. In fact he goes out of his way to make sure his method is not discovered. I have watched him for months for free. All calls in actionable real time so if you can trade you could take the call.

Every day I see people come and go trying get a handle on what is going on. If you are normal trader used to pivots MACD or any other manner of incidator you will not be able to even follow. If you pimple charts [ small time charts] even naked you will not have a clue. The most fun are the ones that think they know everything about trading and go on the attack after about an hour. We ask them to post their trades. Then he blows them away. Some of them can actually trade well but none even remotely close.

If you can't see a reason for at least some of the numbers he calls I believe you should not be trading. What happens when you follow correctly, is you start to see the chart in much different fashion

Cont in reply to trding raw

[evroom1 10]

Trading raw

You sound like the only person who might even have a clue as to what I was asking.

The best I could come up was it was the dom and something else. It is a well known fact that a command of tape reading can really help you decide wheter or not your picked number is going to work or not. This guy claims to only use the DOM and NOTHING else. Most amazing is the fact he is not a scalper like most tape reader I have seen. 100 ticks + is usual for this method. I would love to know how see a pattern like that in a DOM. Ok I know MK delta and that can be helpful if one cannot read the tape. But I can look a chart and get the same results. He does not worry about pivot , open closes , VWAP, etc. But all majot turning points are identified in advance. As any good trader knows a pivot for example is an area where a reaction can happen. This method is far more accurate. It does not need any volume to work either, just pure price.

Any help or direction in seeing a pattern on the tape /dom would be be very much appreciated.

[MightyMouse 12]

Trading raw

You sound like the only person who might even have a clue as to what I was asking.

The best I could come up was it was the dom and something else. It is a well known fact that a command of tape reading can really help you decide wheter or not your picked number is going to work or not. This guy claims to only use the DOM and NOTHING else. Most amazing is the fact he is not a scalper like most tape reader I have seen. 100 ticks + is usual for this method. I would love to know how see a pattern like that in a DOM. Ok I know MK delta and that can be helpful if one cannot read the tape. But I can look a chart and get the same results. He does not worry about pivot , open closes , VWAP, etc. But all majot turning points are identified in advance. As any good trader knows a pivot for example is an area where a reaction can happen. This method is far more accurate. It does not need any volume to work either, just pure price.

Any help or direction in seeing a pattern on the tape /dom would be be very much appreciated.

 

Evroom,

 

Are you sure you this guy you are talking about is a trader? Because he sure sounds like Tommy, the deaf and dumb and bling kid who sure plays a mean pinball.

 

With all due respect, this person you are talking about exists in your mind only. I hope you get the help you need.

[vegasfoster 10]

So I'm watching tv with my nephew and quickly pressed fastforward three times on the tivo to skip through the commercial. It went, "bong, bong, bong". He laughed and said "it's already at the end, you can't fastforward it". I said, "I bet you I can fastforward it". He said "no you can't, it's impossible". I said "I bet you five bucks then". He said "ok". So I press rewind for a few seconds, then press fastforward. I said, "see, I can fastforward it, you owe me five bucks". Make sense?

[tradingRAW 10]

Evroom,

 

Excuse my ignorance but what the heck is DOM! lol....tape reading is a skill on top of applying logic to price action, tape reading alone without logic does nothing, for example here is friday trade video, as skilled as I am with the tape KBH presented a problem because it failed to smooth out. But unlike say FINL where tape failed but logic applied to why the stock shot up helps me redefine pivots and rework the trade at a higher level taking cue from the tape. Tape reading alone isn't the answer but its a tool you'll need and is far superior to charts, of course that is my opinion. But I started out as a chartist just like every new trader because visually its more appealing. If you want to be a serious trader and take size of 10k or more you have to learn how to affectively read the tape.

 

The interaction between Bid/Ask and the Last Print can really tell the story. You start to notice from my trading that consistency is really a skill set and not perfect set up. Its a war between you and the stock and your p/l is the score, its isn't going to be pretty and clean just like there is never a clean boxing match or a shut out in basket ball, you will have losses but the skilled trader will over come them and by the time the market close finish on top....of course hopefully over their cost.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuwDWWDBVto]YouTube - day trading in action 9-24-2010[/ame]

[evroom1 10]

I just found all your stuff, and like your style, A modern day Jesse Livermore. Well done.The DOM stands depth of market and is the standard order entry platform for something like ninja trader or trader X. It generally does not show as much information as the tape.The more I research the subject the more I have to agree it is the tape/dom and something else. I have traded from just a spread sheet updated real time by an esignal feed. But found that it much like market delta [ for those reading this, do a google search. you may like it if you do not know what Mk delta is]. Both those entry systems market delta and the tape produce entries but as your videos show they can be fake outs. And next thing you know you are back to scalping. Ok mindset is the major part of trading but not the part I want to get into on this thread.

In hindsight everyone would agree that in any given day there is one entry that is the best for the period. Pivots, S-R lines, VWAP or what have you can all give clues as to where the next turning point could be. But if they nail it , generally speaking it is more an accident than a fact. Maybe the forementioned and the tape is the best we have to go on. I have seen the enevlop pushed. Turning points are nailed in both small and larger time frames. If you have any trading ability at all, these numbers jump out at you. Maybe it is the use of an algo that makes the different. I do know that the random market theory is just a bunch of BS put upon new traders by trainors who need an excuse as to why they cannot trade. The MK has structure. Can you see this structure just using the tape/dom in real time without ever including historial data? I at present cannot see how it is done. I am not a good tape reader but I just pull up a 3sec chart and I have much the same thing in visual format. I have to use S and R just like other traders.

I thank you so much for your clear input. Trading from just price alone may turn out to be a dead end. But the discovery process has made me a better trader

[TheDude 10]

My stock broker, who is also my golf partner, who is also my friend for 40 years, trades without charts. In fact he looks down on any form of chart reader. His method is something like this.You watch the Bid and the Offer on a fast moving high volume stock..If the bid is $10 and the offer is $10.20 and the sale goes through at $10, there are more sellers than buyers. If this changes and the sale goes through at $10.20, there are more buyers than sellers.The bid will now change to $10.20 and the offer will move up.Its a big share so there are lots of sales at the same price before a change.BUY.Its a pure scalp and you take small profits with a 1% stop loss.Its easy if you are a stock broker--- you dont pay brokerage !!!!

 

LOL

 

Aren't their rules about stock brokers trading their own accounts?

 

Either way, if a broker can trade his own account, he wouldn't need a chart because he could just position himself against his clients given that 80% lose.

[wapminnin 10]

understanding price direction looking at what the market is telling you is something to master and using indicators is secondary. Dont use indicators as your eyes but if you must use indicators, you use them as helpful guide. or to use as confluence of your trades.

[BlowFish 10]

Dunno why but Raw's vid reminded me of a passage from Zen in the Markets I enclose a small portion below.

 

To see things as they are and not the way you want them to be requires good

vision and a reasonable intellect. Actually, it is better if we have no intellect

working at all. This test will illustrate what it takes to be a success using a Zen

approach to the market.

 

Start with the vision test. Keep this page at a reasonable distance from your nose.

Now read aloud the following numbers:

 

27 28 29

 

Did you say twenty-seven, twenty-eight, and twenty-nine? Brilliant! Youíve passed

the second-hardest part of doing well in the market.

 

Now for the hardest part. Look again at the numbers and say out loud the number

that is the highest. Now say the lowest. Which number is between both numbers?

 

Did you say that twenty-seven was the lowest and that twenty-nine was the

highest? If you also said that twenty-eight was in the middle, then youíve passed

the test with flying colors! You are on your way to being very successful in the

markets. You may be laughing, but I am dead serious. If it really is that

simple to recognise what the market is saying at all times, why do you have to

complicate it.

 

The vision test that you have taken proves that you can recognize different

numbers, and the I.Q. test demonstrates that you know the relationships among

them. Believe me when I say that no other knowledge of the market is necessary.

 

This exam determines that you are clearly capable of an egoless view of the market

- a Zen view, if you wish. A view that is free of personality needs. Twenty-nine is

higher than twenty-seven. No one can dispute that. Not even your ego, no matter

how hard it may try.