Trading Without a Chart

[kuokam 10]

Therefore, would you say treasuries are the best day trading objects on the dom?

 

Here is my take on it.

 

It is possible to scalp off the DOM, no question about it.

 

It is possible to take position day trades off the DOM. I do it on the Treasuries and although a chart isn't used a volume profile is. XTrader has a volume profile on the DOM as fo a lot of other products. From this you can see highs/lows and areas that it cut through like butter as opposed to areas where there was a lot of consolidation. Long term charts are also used but not necessarily referenced intra-day. Look at a longer term chart, remember the most relevant price points. Job done.

 

You also do need to have a decent short term memory as it helps to know where price got stuck throughout the day.

 

The more intra-day swings an instrument puts in the LESS you are able to rely solely on the DOM. Or rather, the less I am. The treasuries put in very few intra-day swings but CL puts in 30 or more. It is these swing points that are also pain points to a lot of other traders.

 

On an instrument like the ES, I cannot trade purely off the DOM. I need to be able to see the intraday swings. In an up move, you might see an iceberg on the offer and 3-4000 contracts hit it. Still, it'll just carry on up, cutting through like a knife through butter. On the other hand if it's pulling back down in an up move and you see the same thing on the bid, it's a good opportunity for a long.

 

Everyone uses it in a different way. For me, I need context and in the treasuries the volume profile is sufficient. On the ES, the volume profile is not sufficient, so I use an intraday chart too.

 

For CL/YM - not my cup of tea. Very different from reading DOM on a thick market, although I keep promising myself to have a serious look one day.

[DionysusToast 10]

Therefore, would you say treasuries are the best day trading objects on the dom?

 

 

US Treasuries are certainly the slowest/thickest. For various reasons, that gives you more time to make a decision. You also have spreading activity occurring which can tip your hand. I will hold up my hands and say that I can't personally see the spreading no matter how hard I look - it's way above my head.

 

I think FESX is just as good though and I would argue that it's a better trade, certainly for people in Asia like me.

[gerdman 10]

After reading the pages in the beginning and the end of this thread I felt a need to comment on the topic.

 

ALL trading requires the use of historical data. ALL of our indicators are based on something that has happened in the past. ALL of our indicators are ultimately based on price.

 

There was some talk about only using the 'x' axis of the chart. I get a curvy line if I do that where the dots that make up the line are unrelated. Maybe someone can comment on the cone that professionals utilize.

 

To say someone trades without a chart is a misnomer to me in that if your application interrogates the history data for high and low points, averages, frequencies, etc., then you are basically reading a chart using mathematics rather than your eyes.

 

Taking the concept of trading without a chart literally, the only way this can be done is with an automatic system. I've spent the last several years writing such a system. It is completely on its own and does quite well. However, I do have to rely on charts when choosing symbols to trade and to review how well a stock is performing.

[pheroman 10]

Can you tell me how to find this service?

[DionysusToast 10]

After reading the pages in the beginning and the end of this thread I felt a need to comment on the topic.

 

ALL trading requires the use of historical data. ALL of our indicators are based on something that has happened in the past. ALL of our indicators are ultimately based on price.

 

There was some talk about only using the 'x' axis of the chart. I get a curvy line if I do that where the dots that make up the line are unrelated. Maybe someone can comment on the cone that professionals utilize.

 

To say someone trades without a chart is a misnomer to me in that if your application interrogates the history data for high and low points, averages, frequencies, etc., then you are basically reading a chart using mathematics rather than your eyes.

 

Taking the concept of trading without a chart literally, the only way this can be done is with an automatic system. I've spent the last several years writing such a system. It is completely on its own and does quite well. However, I do have to rely on charts when choosing symbols to trade and to review how well a stock is performing.

 

Lot's of people trade without charts but that doesn't mean they don't have a means to pick a good trade location.

 

This is enough information to pick a spot:

 

 

In fact - this information isn't available on the price chart and a price chart would be misleading as it doesn't show you where the majority of trading occurred.

[kuokam 10]

This is the profile beside the dom, which is for all the day session. Is it enough to take decisions, as compared to the Profile fragmented in 30 minutes ? How do you combine it with the dom to come to a decision?

 

 

 

Lot's of people trade without charts but that doesn't mean they don't have a means to pick a good trade location.

 

This is enough information to pick a spot:

 

 

In fact - this information isn't available on the price chart and a price chart would be misleading as it doesn't show you where the majority of trading occurred.

[DionysusToast 10]

This is the profile beside the dom, which is for all the day session. Is it enough to take decisions, as compared to the Profile fragmented in 30 minutes ? How do you combine it with the dom to come to a decision?

 

Well - it depends on the market. I very much doubt you could get good trade locations of Crude using just the days volume profile, it's for thicker markets.

 

On ES & FESX I do set levels before the markets open. And those levels come from daily charts/value areas.

 

For FESX, there is no need for an intraday chart or any other chart for that matter.

 

For the ES - I do use the intraday chart because I play measured moves on more volatile days. On less volatile days, I ignore the charts and focus on the profile. I do use swing charts too. Even on volatile days, I will give more precedence to what I see on the volume profile if we build a lot of volume in the area.

 

Early on in the session, I tend to pay more attention to medium sized volume clusters as areas we will come back and test and that will get defended. Later on as the profile builds I don't use volume clusters at all, especially if we are retracing old ground for the day. I tend to focus on highs/lows, steps in the profile and distribution areas.

 

In terms of the depth, well there's nothing special about the using the depth for the volume profile but basically you are looking for absorption, vacuums, one side to give up or one side to start pushing it aggressively.

[kuokam 10]

If I understand you well, this is it: ideally you mark your levels beforehand, you follow them on profile for confirmation and only then look at the dom to tell you if price is being accepted or rejected, thus which way market is going to head. This brings me to think the two tools are complementary. But there are some people who trade exclusively by the dom, and those by the profile . Can one trade well with only one of the tools?

 

Well - it depends on the market. I very much doubt you could get good trade locations of Crude using just the days volume profile, it's for thicker markets.

 

On ES & FESX I do set levels before the markets open. And those levels come from daily charts/value areas.

 

For FESX, there is no need for an intraday chart or any other chart for that matter.

 

For the ES - I do use the intraday chart because I play measured moves on more volatile days. On less volatile days, I ignore the charts and focus on the profile. I do use swing charts too. Even on volatile days, I will give more precedence to what I see on the volume profile if we build a lot of volume in the area.

 

Early on in the session, I tend to pay more attention to medium sized volume clusters as areas we will come back and test and that will get defended. Later on as the profile builds I don't use volume clusters at all, especially if we are retracing old ground for the day. I tend to focus on highs/lows, steps in the profile and distribution areas.

 

In terms of the depth, well there's nothing special about the using the depth for the volume profile but basically you are looking for absorption, vacuums, one side to give up or one side to start pushing it aggressively.

[DionysusToast 10]

If I understand you well, this is it: ideally you mark your levels beforehand, you follow them on profile for confirmation and only then look at the dom to tell you if price is being accepted or rejected, thus which way market is going to head. This brings me to think the two tools are complementary. But there are some people who trade exclusively by the dom, and those by the profile . Can one trade well with only one of the tools?

 

For FESX - here is what I do

- mark the levels beforehand - many of which are extremes away from the market but also prior value areas which we might be above/below/within

- as we approach a level for the first time, the profile is not that relevant, the depth is though

- as the profile builds for the day, it becomes more and more relevant for picking intraday levels and of course you try to pick up clues from the depth

 

Treasuries traders watch 3 DOMs side by side and don't bother with intraday charts. Charts aren't much help at all for scalping.

 

A lot of spread traders also wouldn't have much use for the price charts of the individual instruments that make up the spread.

 

There's some stuff on youtube if you search around for it

NoBSDayTrading - YouTube

Guy Bower - YouTube

Akira Kobayashi - YouTube

[kuokam 10]

Thanks a lot.

I am also surfing your site right now. great job!

 

 

For FESX - here is what I do

- mark the levels beforehand - many of which are extremes away from the market but also prior value areas which we might be above/below/within

- as we approach a level for the first time, the profile is not that relevant, the depth is though

- as the profile builds for the day, it becomes more and more relevant for picking intraday levels and of course you try to pick up clues from the depth

 

Treasuries traders watch 3 DOMs side by side and don't bother with intraday charts. Charts aren't much help at all for scalping.

 

A lot of spread traders also wouldn't have much use for the price charts of the individual instruments that make up the spread.

 

There's some stuff on youtube if you search around for it

NoBSDayTrading - YouTube

Guy Bower - YouTube

Akira Kobayashi - YouTube