Trading Without a Chart

[Roger Felton 10]

Thousands of trades. No wait. Hundreds of thousands of trades.You should really get your facts straight before you begin to condemn someone. Isn't that what you profess? She did in fact have losing trades. Sorry, I don't get my information from a saloon.

 

It is always fun to provide a know it all some facts.

 

Since I don't know her personally, I can only rely on getting my "facts" from reputable sources. Go to any of them, they're all the same. Here's the story from Wikipedia:

 

"In 1978 and 1979, lawyer and First Lady of Arkansas Hillary Rodham engaged in a series of trades of cattle futures contracts. Her initial $1,000 investment had generated nearly $100,000 when she stopped trading after ten months. In 1994, after Hillary Rodham Clinton had become First Lady of the United States, the trading became the subject of considerable controversy regarding the likelihood of such a spectacular rate of return, possible conflict of interest, and allegations of disguised bribery,[1] allegations that Clinton strongly denied. There were no official investigations of the trading and Clinton was never charged with any wrongdoing."

 

"Various publications sought to analyze the likelihood of Rodham's successful results. The editor of the Journal of Futures Markets said in April 1994, "This is like buying ice skates one day and entering the Olympics a day later."

 

Whether she ever lost on any of those trades is irrelevant. Taking a $1000 account to $100,000 in 10 months smacks of insider trading. I have no proof but I do have an opinion and I think statistics, logic, common sense and experience would support my view...and the view of many other trading professionals.

 

Am I a "know it all" simply because I'm skeptical...or because I'm not a Socialist Democrat?

[MightyMouse 12]

Since I don't know her personally, I can only rely on getting my "facts" from reputable sources. Go to any of them, they're all the same. Here's the story from Wikipedia:

 

"In 1978 and 1979, lawyer and First Lady of Arkansas Hillary Rodham engaged in a series of trades of cattle futures contracts. Her initial $1,000 investment had generated nearly $100,000 when she stopped trading after ten months. In 1994, after Hillary Rodham Clinton had become First Lady of the United States, the trading became the subject of considerable controversy regarding the likelihood of such a spectacular rate of return, possible conflict of interest, and allegations of disguised bribery,[1] allegations that Clinton strongly denied. There were no official investigations of the trading and Clinton was never charged with any wrongdoing."

 

"Various publications sought to analyze the likelihood of Rodham's successful results. The editor of the Journal of Futures Markets said in April 1994, "This is like buying ice skates one day and entering the Olympics a day later."

 

Whether she ever lost on any of those trades is irrelevant. Taking a $1000 account to $100,000 in 10 months smacks of insider trading. I have no proof but I do have an opinion and I think statistics, logic, common sense and experience would support my view...and the view of many other trading professionals.

 

Am I a "know it all" simply because I'm skeptical...or because I'm not a Socialist Democrat?

 

Insider trading in the cattle and hog market? That is awesome!

 

I think the only place where your statistics, logic and common sense will make any sense is in a saloon because in a saloon you can insider trade in the cattle or hog market. Wikipedia is the lazy man's version of research. it is probably more appropriately called packaging or marketing of information. Research is slightly different from copying and pasting a few lines from Wikipedia. It might do you some good to research a topic before you profess to know the truth from experience, logic and common sense.

 

It appears that her account may have been used as a vessel to funnel money to the Clintons. Why? I have no idea. She was allowed to break margin rules. Exactly why? I have no idea. I can speculate why, but I won't.

 

But it remains that there were losses to her account and not hundreds of winning trades without a losing trade as you posted earlier.

[Roger Felton 10]

Insider trading in the cattle and hog market? That is awesome!

 

I think the only place where your statistics, logic and common sense will make any sense is in a saloon because in a saloon you can insider trade in the cattle or hog market. Wikipedia is the lazy man's version of research. it is probably more appropriately called packaging or marketing of information. Research is slightly different from copying and pasting a few lines from Wikipedia. It might do you some good to research a topic before you profess to know the truth from experience, logic and common sense.

 

It appears that her account may have been used as a vessel to funnel money to the Clintons. Why? I have no idea. She was allowed to break margin rules. Exactly why? I have no idea. I can speculate why, but I won't.

 

But it remains that there were losses to her account and not hundreds of winning trades without a losing trade as you posted earlier.

 

Shoot the messenger if you wish but the point of the conversation was the probability of illegal trading activity on her part. I thought skepticism was allowed here at TL without fear of "know-it-all" name calling. I stand corrected. Perhaps she was smarter than I give her credit for...one of the quickest ways to start an investigation is to never lose. She did lose some trades and I stand corrected, again.

 

Don't like Wikipedia? In a 1998 article, Marshall Magazine, a publication of the Marshall School of Business, sought to frame the trading, the nature of the results, and possible explanations for them:

 

"These results are quite remarkable. Two-thirds of her trades showed a profit by the end of the day she made them and 80 percent were ultimately profitable. Many of her trades took place at or near the best prices of the day."

 

I remain highly skeptical and I'm not alone by a long shot.

[MightyMouse 12]

Shoot the messenger if you wish but the point of the conversation was the probability of illegal trading activity on her part. I thought skepticism was allowed here at TL without fear of "know-it-all" name calling. I stand corrected. Perhaps she was smarter than I give her credit for...one of the quickest ways to start an investigation is to never lose. She did lose some trades and I stand corrected, again.

 

Don't like Wikipedia? In a 1998 article, Marshall Magazine, a publication of the Marshall School of Business, sought to frame the trading, the nature of the results, and possible explanations for them:

 

"These results are quite remarkable. Two-thirds of her trades showed a profit by the end of the day she made them and 80 percent were ultimately profitable. Many of her trades took place at or near the best prices of the day."

 

I remain highly skeptical and I'm not alone by a long shot.

 

Well, for someone who is skeptical you sure do jump to conclusions quickly and post fall statements. It might be that your dislike of Hillary Clinton leads you to believe even the most far fetched ideas, but I really have no idea why you choose to believe the falsehoods that you believe.

[Roger Felton 10]

Well, for someone who is skeptical you sure do jump to conclusions quickly and post fall statements. It might be that your dislike of Hillary Clinton leads you to believe even the most far fetched ideas, but I really have no idea why you choose to believe the falsehoods that you believe.

 

If we agree that she did lose some trades, that was a statistical error, not a falsehood. This was many years ago. So, what are the other falsehoods? Everything else I've stated has come from multiple sources. If your sources state the complete opposite...that she was a market wiz, that she started with $100,000 and ended with $1,000, That there was zero chance that anything illegal was done, then what makes you so sure that your sources are correct?

 

How can I dislike her? I don't even know her. Her socialist politics does not preclude her from earning a living...as long as it's legal.

[MightyMouse 12]

If we agree that she did lose some trades, that was a statistical error, not a falsehood. This was many years ago. So, what are the other falsehoods? Everything else I've stated has come from multiple sources. If your sources state the complete opposite...that she was a market wiz, that she started with $100,000 and ended with $1,000, That there was zero chance that anything illegal was done, then what makes you so sure that your sources are correct?

 

How can I dislike her? I don't even know her. Her socialist politics does not preclude her from earning a living...as long as it's legal.

 

Her account was used as a vessel to get the clintons money. Very large trades were placed in her account on her behalf. She had no idea how to trade and it was never implied that she did know how to trade. It was a win win situation for the clintons until the target sum was hit. If losses did occur, she did not have to put up the lost amount. Others put it up or the loss was swept away into an error account. So, 100k was received by the clintons and it was made to look like it was earned in a trading account.

 

Bill was governor then and likely someone needed to get him money without making it look like an outright bribe.

[Obsidian 10]

Is a tick, range, volume, Heiken Ashi or minute chart an instrument? Not by my definition.

 

wow you can track those without a chart...cool

[Roger Felton 10]

wow you can track those without a chart...cool

 

Nope, I use them to make my chart. The question was basically, do I trade the Renko market....answer: No, I trade the Renko chart.

[DionysusToast 10]

Nope, I use them to make my chart. The question was basically, do I trade the Renko market....answer: No, I trade the Renko chart.

 

Roger, you sorta missed the point.

 

You brought in the whole 'flight instrument' analogy & hence the comments on Renko being an instrument.

 

Geddit????

[Roger Felton 10]

Roger, you sorta missed the point.

 

You brought in the whole 'flight instrument' analogy & hence the comments on Renko being an instrument.

 

Geddit????

 

I get it...just slow. I've had several pilots agree that there is a similarity between insturments and indicators. One you trust your money to and the other you trust your life.

[DionysusToast 10]

I get it...just slow. I've had several pilots agree that there is a similarity between insturments and indicators. One you trust your money to and the other you trust your life.

 

Did he say anything about knobs?

[Roger Felton 10]

Did he say anything about knobs?

 

Just the ones on the co-pilots knees.

 

Of course, traders can get knobby knees, too, from praying too much.

[DionysusToast 10]

all this pilot stuff makes me laugh....

 

My 10 year old thinks it's a breeze....

 

[Roger Felton 10]

all this pilot stuff makes me laugh....

 

My 10 year old thinks it's a breeze....

 

 

Is that him? What a great pic.

 

A pilot let me raise the landing gear once. Then I learned I was supposed to wait for the plane to take off.

[DionysusToast 10]

Yup - that's him...

 

Sadly, it was only a SIM account....:haha:

[DionysusToast 10]

When I was younger, a stewardess let me raise her flaps.

 

Probably not something we should go into....

[Roger Felton 10]

When I was younger, a stewardess let me raise her flaps.

 

Probably not something we should go into....

 

That's ridiculous! Flaps don't belong in the tail section. I hope you remembered to put on a rudder....

Edited June 19, 2012 by Roger Felton

[MightyMouse 12]

Enough of the Al Qaeda training videos. Let's get back on topic.

[4EverMaAT 10]

What's so hard about trading without a chart? Charts only tell you what a particular market did in hindsight. They're just another indicator. Who needs 'em.

 

When I fly I never use instruments. Pilots should already know if they are airborne or still on the runway. Who needs a compass when you have the sun? Maps and GPS are for sissies. If you don't know where the heck you are, what business do you have trying to go anywhere?

 

Traders always get bogged down with useless stuff like charts and other such nonsense. Hillary Clinton never looked a chart and she never lost a trade in cattle futures. You can't be a pansy all your life. Toss those charts and trade macho. A blindfold would be a nice touch, too.

 

I know somebody who uses automated strategy and no chart at all. The person who I know, uses Excel that tells him when to enter and exit.

 

Charts are just visual representations of historical and incoming price feed.....number series of data. So all of those neat price patterns can be calculated in excel with the right amount of programming knowledge. A chart is a much faster reference, where you could "see" a high or low from a particular day much quicker than you could on a bland spreadsheet. You can have functions flag certain conditions (like highest high/low for a day) in a spreadsheet also.

Technically any platform that could be populated with a large volume of individual number series (such as a spreadsheet, database, XML, HTML5, etc, etc) could be used to facilitate trading. Of course it needs some level of programming ability to automate the processing of the ticks, place orders, etc.

 

But it is good to have a platform that is dedicated to the task with ready-made drawing tools, robust programming language and support from other traders.

[4ow4ow 10]

Any method is possible.

 

What we need is only --correct timing-- with the market's way.

[4ow4ow 10]

Any method is possible.

 

What we need is only --correct timing-- with the market's way.

[evroom1 10]

Evroom, you can trade just using a market depth or Dom trader by using the volume at each price as support or resistance. It's a bit tricky at first but with a few screen hours you'll start to see it. That would be guess as to what that guy does. Thoughts or revelations?

 

Sorry I have not got a posting message for months. I was sort of hoping this thread would go dead, as it has attracted a lot of crazy people with axes to grind. The dud guy being one.

 

Thank you for your volume at price method. I tried that and it left as much margin of error as any other method.

The guy that i had spoken of no longer claims to use just a dom. He till does the same thing every day in a free room. I have been banned from this room as I accussed him of not really trading.

 

Revelations: volume is not a consideration when trading without a chart or with a chart for that matter.

It may be that one can trade just from a DOM but it is so much easier and faster to have a chart assist you. Trading from just a DOM is not the holy grail

Time is not as important as we are lead to believe.

[Raleigh Lee 10]

Is it the accuracy of the method (% wins) that is impressive, or is it just that he is making more money than average? I ask because there are other ways to boost return other than winning more trades.

[evroom1 10]

Is it the accuracy of the method (% wins) that is impressive, or is it just that he is making more money than average? I ask because there are other ways to boost return other than winning more trades.

 

For him it was both. He had switched to trend trading larger lots before I was booted. However he till calls the "DOM" type trades on a one lot which he claims 1m on the CL in a year. For a time while I was there his win rate was better than 90%.

 

I totally agree with you there are other ways to boost returns. Increasing lot size for one.

 

But the average rookie trader is destroyed by losses even if they win 60% of the time. They want 100% wins. So they seek whoever promises this stuff.

The guy that orginally claimed he was just trading from a DOM demos for free in a free room

I would post it but the the dud guy would be all over me for trying to sell something.

Next I have been following this guy for 2+ years now. For most people he would be a waste of time. As he does not teach, explain anything, and if he thinks you are catching on he boots you. As he did to me.

 

Good luck, the best traders develop their own indepentant systems. Following someone will always be a mistake.

[basilturer 10]

Trading with out a chart is possible if you have alerts service on your mobile. If you have alerts service then you can trade any time, any where with out chart. Because in this service you get alerts on every moment.