The Race

[MadMarketScientist 11]

"The Race" participants let's up the ante. Of course a run towards a cool million dollars in profit might be reward enough, but let's make it even more interesting.

 

Traders Laboratory will aware the Grand Champion of "The Race" a brand new Apple iPad 32GB version. You can use it to track the second million you're going to make.

 

Perhaps we'll throw you a virtual ticker tape parade and shower you with other adulation but for now, your million (or however close you get) plus this shiny new Apple iPad should suffice.

 

We've discussed this with the "Thalestrader" who developed "The Race" and there are a few conditions.

 

"The race is about making a million dollars. The finish line is one million dollars in profit. So whoever wins should be the one who gets closest to the finish line.

 

The finish line is a million dollars in profit, so at twenty weeks, whoever is closest to the finish line should be the winner of the TL prize.

 

The rules from the first post in this thread must be followed/adhered to. If we need to get further verification or evidence of the return than please comply with that request. Just to keep it fair for everyone."

 

Remember, it's whomever at the end is closest, and Traders Lab will look at the final statements, and declare the winner at our discretion based upon the results.

 

But, a winner will be crowned!

 

Good success to all.

[yeaheah 10]

What a choppy market.

 

Done for today, last trade was also a winner:

 

[fxThunder 10]

My statement for today.

 

Cheers,

fxT

[mike21 10]

[/highlight yellow]

i think what is important is to not just look at the race aspect of this money management style, but to realize that an abbreviated version could be applied to your everyday trading. When i started trading i knew what i wanted to accomplish, and that was finding a system that would give me the potential to double every two weeks on average. Keep in mind that it is just and average. I have doubled in two days, and two months. Well, over time i have found a few appropriate systems. The benefit of my cuurent system is that i know exactly when to turn the platform on, watch for 5 to 20 minutes, then either i am in a trade or not. This happens about 20 times a week, and saves me from watching the price movement all day. This current system fits me because i will place bets outside of my system if i am bored and have the chance, and now i don't have the chance to be bored. In any event, [highlight yellow]i found a number of systems the would give me the chance to double within a two week period. choose what is best for your personality.

 

Once you have the system, you need to realize why you are trading. I am trading to put money in my bank account. As such, in the real world i cash out each time i double. I do this because my base account is set at a point where i will be delighted if i only have one cash out a month, two is obviously great.

 

If you try an approach like this, you would need to establish a reserve that could be applied to your account when you have big drawdowns, which you will. I have about three to four a year, but again, this is part of the plan. If you have to post up $50k thoughout the course of the year that may seem bad, but realize on the other end that you have made say $300k. You can insert any numbers that you choose, but it is the point that posting up more cash can be part of the overall plan. I don't see what is wrong with that, and no one will ever convince me otherwise.

 

Hopefully a few here will reach the goal, and maybe in different ways. That is the outcome that i am hoping for, because then we can all see different systems and money management styles that achieve the same outcome.

 

Off to family functions. Good luck next week.

 

 

Where do you find these systems?

 

.

[sicktrader 10]

[highlight yellow][/highlight yellow]

 

 

Where do you find these systems?

 

.

 

I have 4, not to blow it out of porportion. The one that I am using now is based on the news. I like the fact that I don't have to be tied to the computer at all hours. If I fall off track in this race, then I'll start using a system that generates a lot more trades in a day/night. Not as profitble per trade, but the end of the week result should be similar.

[sicktrader 10]

In no way am I implying that the systems that I use are better than anyone else's, because I am sure they are not. When I attempt to find a system my first goal is that over time it has proven that it will double every two weeks on average. The two weeks is certainly not like clockwork. Sometimes it is a few days, sometimes a month or more. I am hoping to catch a few breaks here along the way, but it could certainly go the other way and I can blow out. Hoping for the best.

[thalestrader 14]

In no way am I implying that the systems that I use are better than anyone else's, because I am sure they are not. When I attempt to find a system my first goal is that over time it has proven that it will double every two weeks on average. ...

 

There are many ways to "skin this cat;" and I think the system is but a very small part. You imply, and I'd agree, that there are many "systems," "methods," approaches," or what have you that are capable of providing the necessary win/loss ratio combined with the proper profit factor to enable one to double rather quickly. The "doubling," in other words, is far more dependent on 1) an aggressive money management regimen, and 2) the trader's ability to trade a particular system without allowing his or her own biases, emotions, thoughts, opinions, and judgments "override" or otherwise undermine a consistent application of the particular system.

 

As to the money management aspect, you really have introduced some elements that are not typically found in books, articles, forums, etc. devoted to trading. Whereas most of us try to trade in such a manner as to reduce if not eliminate the risk of ruin, you court ruin, but in a manner that actually plans for ruin as part of the trading plan:

 

If you try an approach like this, you would need to establish a reserve that could be applied to your account when you have big drawdowns, which you will. I have about three to four a year, but again, this is part of the plan. If you have to post up $50K though out the course of the year that may seem bad, but realize on the other end that you have made say $300K. You can insert any numbers that you choose, but it is the point that posting up more cash can be part of the overall plan. I don't see what is wrong with that, and no one will ever convince me otherwise.

 

In preparing for The Race, I decided I'd commit 3K to the attempt, but that I'd only post $1500 of that, and keep the other half in reserve in case I blow out the first half. In effect, I have put together a trading plan that does not seek to eliminate the risk of ruin, but rather accommodates ruin.

 

I'm not recommending that everyone throw RoR and traditional money management out the window. After all, I still trade my main account as I always have - 123's and 2B's with small initial risk that is aggressively reduced - and I have no intention of applying sickMM to that account. But I admit that this challenge has surprised me in how much fun it is giving me, and also the degree to which I am starting to believe that this might just be possible. This is sort of becoming like a "Rubik's cube of trading" to me. Whether I make it this time or not, I can see myself attempting this repeatedly until I finally succeed.

 

At any rate, sicko, you have introduced a new perspective on treating risk to TL, and if not to TL, certainly to me.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

Edited May 4, 2010 by thalestrader

[bathrobe 10]

No trades for me in this account today

 

A very strange (imo) sidenote to trading a small account is when I enter in this account and it moves against me I start to figit and quickly gain an attitude that I will take any gain no matter how small, where as in my other account I feel no nervousness and am confident that my overall plan will work out. What makes this so odd of course is the difference in size

[amswak 10]

and I have no intention of applying sickMM to that account.

 

Good phrase. I hope it catches on: "sickMM"

 

sort of reminds me of that strange deformed M&M you sometimes get in the package that you aren't sure if you should actually eat it...I always do....then I make a mental note that if I am sick later I will know why....lol

[thalestrader 14]

Hi Folks,

 

Yesterday started off with four losses in a row, with an average loss of - 6.25 ticks. This was followed by two back to back short entries on the 6E, yielding +31 & +25 ticks respectively, so with an average win of alost 4.5R, the account ends positive on the day in spite of only a 33% win rate. If four losses in a row would be the worst I could hope to suffer, I would be very happy.

 

 

There will be no update from me tomorrow, as I am unable to trade this morning. I also will not be able to trade Wednesday or Thursday morning this week, but I am going to see if the 6J gives me any action in the Tokyo AM hours. I will post if there are any trades. Otherwise, I do not plan on trading again until Friday morning.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[thalestrader 14]

... Personally, I think there is a fundamental flaw in a contest where the participants realize that the goal is very unrealistic...

 

"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp - or what's a heaven for"

- Robert Browning

 

 

I like to think that nothing is impossible, though some things are more unlikely than others.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[MightyMouse 12]

Interesting thread.

 

I am sure that this will be a close race.

 

I will not be participating since I will get nowhere with a $3000 account. Unless, there was a quickest blow up category. I have proved to myself time and time again that I can't scalp, and there is no need to prove it again.

 

In the future, I would consider doing this if we could do it with a larger account size and other rule modifications, such as everyone trade the same instrument, different account auditing rules, etc.

 

 

Good luck to all.

[MightyMouse 12]

As I learned in the p/l thread, you are correct that many won't participate b/c they can't or won't. I posted daily blotters for a very long time in those threads and very few posted w/ me regularly. I'd say basically no one posted with the regularity that I was. And it got old posting by myself.

 

I think I've said in a few threads that I will not be participating in the race. Personally, I think there is a fundamental flaw in a contest where the participants realize that the goal is very unrealistic. I don't plan my business this way, nor do I trade this way. I set realistic goals as this is my livelihood. It's not a game or just a fun little thing to do on the side as a hobby.

 

So I'd ask that any comments directed to me entering the race stop b/c I will not be joining this particular version of the race.

 

Brownsfan,

 

The odds are that you could enter the race and win simply by not trading.

 

Please do not take this as a negative post regarding the trading abililities of those involved, since I really believe there are skilled traders participating; instead, it is a comment regarding the difficulty of the task at hand.

[enochbenjamin 10]

going backwards - overtrading.

[sicktrader 10]

I went backwards today as well. Got into a trade during the night that was not part of my system. Lost 18 points on the AUS.

[yeaheah 10]

Great volatility and finally a losing day.

 

Didn't trade the high probability setups. :crap:

 

[brownsfan019 17]

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp - or what's a heaven for"

- Robert Browning

 

 

 

I like to think that nothing is impossible, though some things are more unlikely than others.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

 

There's a few ways to view an objective that is very unlikely to be reached vs setting an aggressive (but realistic) goal. I am a very goal oriented person and for me, this current contest design does not work. I cannot sit at my computer w/ a small account and say the goal is to take it to $1M in 20 weeks. My brain interprets that as an exercise that will only frustrate me b/c the likelihood of achieving the goal is small.

 

That's my

[fxThunder 10]

Steady as she goes. Probably sub-optimal for the day but followed my plan.

 

Cheers,

fxT

[enochbenjamin 10]

There's a few ways to view an objective that is very unlikely to be reached vs setting an aggressive (but realistic) goal. I am a very goal oriented person and for me, this current contest design does not work. I cannot sit at my computer w/ a small account and say the goal is to take it to $1M in 20 weeks. My brain interprets that as an exercise that will only frustrate me b/c the likelihood of achieving the goal is small.

 

That's my

 

I agree --- today was a day i dream about in crude oil - a shorters paradise - and I lost money. Days like today I usually make hay but something was not right in my head and I'm wondering if it was "the race".

 

2 bad days in a row.

[sicktrader 10]

I agree --- today was a day i dream about in crude oil - a shorters paradise - and I lost money. Days like today I usually make hay but something was not right in my head and I'm wondering if it was "the race".

 

2 bad days in a row.

 

 

I wouldn't get too worried, yet. I look at today's 200 point move in the curriencies, a day in which I lost money, and shake my head. Truth is that I wanted to pull the trigger on additional trades, which would have won, but I have confined myself to my trading plan. When I go outside of my trading plan, it usually doesn't turn out so good in the long run. There are many more trades up the road, though in my case I may switch systems soon as the situation in Greece is reducing the number of set-ups in my current system.

[thalestrader 14]

In the future, I would consider doing this if we could do it with a larger account size and other rule modifications, such as everyone trade the same instrument, different account auditing rules, etc.

 

At what equity level would you be interested in starting? Are you suggesting you'd race to 1 million if the starting equity were higher? Why "everyone trade the same instrument"? What "account auditing rules" do you suggest?

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[thalestrader 14]

The odds are that you could enter the race and win simply by not trading.

 

In order to be counted as an official participant, all the participants must agree that you made a real attempt at trading a small account to 1 million. Simply opening a small account does not warrant a "real attempt" to make a million from that account.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[sicktrader 10]

In order to be counted as an official participant, all the participants must agree that you made a real attempt at trading a small account to 1 million. Simply opening a small account does not warrant a "real attempt" to make a million from that account.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

 

Thales,

 

Don't get too bent out of shape. I really don't get trading the same instrument either, nor do I get the higher balance. If someone can do it with any instrument, that is fine with me. As far as accounting, a third party verification is as good as it gets. Anyway, let's get this done the first go around.

[thalestrader 14]

Thales,

 

Don't get too bent out of shape...

 

No problem, sicko, I'm not bent out of shape at all, and I don't think that was mightym's intention. But, his post did raise some questions, so I thought I'd put them out there.

 

I agree, let's get this thing done on the first go around. Right now I have $4000 between me and bust ($1500 stake, $1500 reserve, $1000 profits), so I'm feeling pretty good about my chances of staying alive.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

Edited May 5, 2010 by thalestrader

[MightyMouse 12]

At what equity level would you be interested in starting? Are you suggesting you'd race to 1 million if the starting equity were higher? Why "everyone trade the same instrument"? What "account auditing rules" do you suggest?

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

 

Thales,

 

1. I need to have at least enough equity in an account to be able to hold overnight in a futures account because of the way I trade and preferably enough to be able to add a contract and hold overnight.

 

2. I wouldn't try to race to a million with, say, 10k in an account. I do not have that kind of "play money" and one would need to get reckless to try to make a million with a $10k account in anything less than a 20 year period. So, simply the trader with the highest balance at the end of the period would work just fine for me. If that person makes it to a million, he would clearly be the winner.

 

3. My thinking is that if everyone were to trade the same contract or instrument, then it would be more similar to a no limit Hold'em tourney where everyone gets the same chips to start and plays exactly the same game instead of everyone running into a casino and playing which ever game they please.

 

4. Auditing rules? I am not sure. But could it be sponsored by a broker and we each had an account with that broker? That might work.

 

Lastly, I am not suggesting that I do not like what you guys are doing. Simply, that I cannot participate because I do not trade the way I would have to trade to participate and also I can't dedicate the time to trading for fun similarly to the way others have expressed.

 

Good luck to all those who are participating.

 

 

MM