Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

Khaosphere

From Poker to Daytrading

Recommended Posts

Hello,

 

This is my first post since I am a perfect newbie in the world of trading. I have been a poker player for the past 5 years and I will begin to swing trade and day trade next week. I am Canadian and I live in Montreal. I will mainly trade on the Toronto exchange and NY.

 

I have been studying this idea for quite a while now and I decided to try it for real. I read 4 interesting books about trading (reminiscences of a stock operator, the visual investor,trading for a living, secrets for profiting in a bull and a bear market), opened an account on a discount broker website, etc...

 

The most fascinating thing I have noticed so far are the huge similarities betwen both activities:

 

- the rake in poker is like the commissions in trading

- the psychology is quite the same

- what someone wins is what someone loses (minus the commissions)

- tilting can happen both in poker and in trading

- in both activities, emotions must remain calm in order to avoid a bigger mistake later

- there are huge swings in both activities

- new techniques (or playing style) are tested in a daily basis

etc,etc...

 

I'll let you know maybe every week how things develop but I found your forum very interesting and this is where I found the most information and well classified!

 

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hello,This is my first post since I am a perfect newbie in the world of trading. I have been a poker player for the past 5 years and I will begin to swing trade and day trade next week. I am Canadian and I live in Montreal. I will mainly trade on the Toronto exchange and NY.I have been studying this idea for quite a while now and I decided to try it for real. I read 4 interesting books about trading (reminiscences of a stock operator, the visual investor,trading for a living, secrets for profiting in a bull and a bear market), opened an account on a discount broker website, etc...The most fascinating thing I have noticed so far are the huge similarities betwen both activities:

 

- the rake in poker is like the commissions in trading

- the psychology is quite the same

- what someone wins is what someone loses (minus the commissions)

- tilting can happen both in poker and in trading

- in both activities, emotions must remain calm in order to avoid a bigger mistake later

- there are huge swings in both activities

- new techniques (or playing style) are tested in a daily basis

etc,etc...

I'll let you know maybe every week how things develop but I found your forum very interesting and this is where I found the most information and well classified!

:)

 

 

 

Yes, indeed - welcome to TL.

 

I have played a few hands myself.

 

There are certain dynamics at work in the markets that make it much better than poker:

 

The markets are like a heads up game where your opponent can never bet, never fold, never raise and must call your every bet. The trader can bet or not bet whenever he wants, fold whenever he wants and even raise his own bet whenever he wants.

 

There is no ante, only a very small rake and only when you decide to play a hand.

 

While it is indeed the "Big Game," you can sit in for any stakes you want.

 

And maybe best of all, the game doesn't get any tougher as the stakes rise. If you can beat ES for a 10 lot, you can beat it for a 100 lot.

 

As in Poker - Information = Equity

 

At the poker table everybody has access to the same raw data. All players can see the community cards, the pot size, every other player's stack size and the actions and reactions of all the other players. The players who can best calculate drawing odds, pot odds, implied odds, EV, an anticipation of the other players' actions and reactions and furhter process that raw data into action decision (bet, check, raise, fold, check-raise) support information is the favorite to see an increase in equity.

 

In the markets trade decision support information is derrived from ticks. Everyone has access to ticks and the trader who can best processe those ticks into higher quality trade decision support information is the trader most likely to see an increase in equity.

 

cheers

 

UB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hello,

 

This is my first post since I am a perfect newbie in the world of trading. I have been a poker player for the past 5 years and I will begin to swing trade and day trade next week. I am Canadian and I live in Montreal. I will mainly trade on the Toronto exchange and NY.

 

I have been studying this idea for quite a while now and I decided to try it for real. I read 4 interesting books about trading (reminiscences of a stock operator, the visual investor,trading for a living, secrets for profiting in a bull and a bear market), opened an account on a discount broker website, etc...

 

The most fascinating thing I have noticed so far are the huge similarities betwen both activities:

 

- the rake in poker is like the commissions in trading

- the psychology is quite the same

- what someone wins is what someone loses (minus the commissions)

- tilting can happen both in poker and in trading

- in both activities, emotions must remain calm in order to avoid a bigger mistake later

- there are huge swings in both activities

- new techniques (or playing style) are tested in a daily basis

etc,etc...

 

I'll let you know maybe every week how things develop but I found your forum very interesting and this is where I found the most information and well classified!

 

:)

 

Khaosphere, good luck with your Trading. I think you will have a real advantage having played poker for 5 years. I will be really interested to hear how you get on. I recently read about a pro poker player called Andrew Omara who recently started trading forex and his poker skills were a great help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Started trading today.

 

- Opened my trading account with 10k. (plan on adding 5k this week)

 

- 8 trades completed and closed.

 

- 4 trades profitable and 4 trades where I loss money.

 

- the trades were 7 long and 1 short.

 

- I managed a $56 net profit overall (after Commissions and ECN/SEC fees).

 

- 3 trades automatically filled due to a VTSO (virtual trailing stop order) placed maybe too close to the trading range.

 

Learning a lot, fascinated! :)

 

most of the time it's analysis and wait, few decisions to take very fast. love it!

 

Khaosphere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For now I try my hands on stocks, mainly high volume stocks with very liquid market.

 

I traded 8 different stocks today, the company are not really important since I use technical analysis intraday strategy.

 

Since I'm canadian, I started with stock on the TSX (Toronto Stock Exchange) but NYSE / NASDAQ will be added this week also.

 

I plan on trading also futures / options / gold / currencies in the future.

 

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

3rd day of trading completed:

 

- 13 trades completed and closed (26 transactions).

 

- 7 trades profitable and 6 trades where I loss money.

 

- the trades were 11 long and 2 short.

 

- I managed a $216 net profit overall (after Commissions and ECN/SEC fees).

 

- now able to adjust the VTSO not too close to avoid automatic fills when there is a small change of direction.

 

Still learning a lot, still fascinated!

 

most of the time it's analysis and wait, few decisions to take very fast. love it!

 

Khaosphere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Khaosphere thats a good start. I look forward to reading more of your posts. Got to say this is a great website for traders. I am looking forward to reading the price and volume threads. Khaosphere I really want to improve my online poker can you recommend and good websites or books to read.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We run a series of hybrid propshop/hedgefunds and only hire traders with demonstrable poker skills/understanding as per the lower left paragraph on the back cover of the book as shown below.

 

CoversSpine.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello all!!!

 

Yes I'm still at it and I enjoy it more than ever.

 

I have completed my 104th trade (208 transactions) yesterday. I'm still walking up the learning curve but so far so good!!!

 

59 trades were with profits - 45 were losses.

 

Overall I am losing $467 so far. Why I'm losing if almost 60% of my transactions were with profits?

 

I identified 5 major points:

 

1- I tend to keep my positions a bit too long when they are not going in the direction I predicted.

 

2- The 1000 points mini-crash last week cost me $524 (I had 3 positions when it happened and all 3 hit the stop protection in a record time and my 3 positions were sold!). Too bad I had 3 long positions instead of short...

 

3- The transactions, ECN and SEC fees are astronomical. I paid more than $1,800 in fees so far.

 

4- I sell my winning positions too fast and I don't wait until the trend changes (yeah, at first I was excited like a baby to see 3-4 positions flashing in green, now I get used to it lol).

 

5- I transgressed the daytraders law that stipulates that we must NEVER keep a stock overnight. I did it 3 times and lost on the 3 positions I had. I thought that I would save the commission by keeping the stock overnight... it did cost me more than the commissions!!!

 

So this is it so far. I am learning the hard way in a very volatile market but I like it that way.

 

On the other hand, I made great moves and out of a $15,000 starting capital I was able to do many $200+ net profit transactions within less than 1 hour.

 

My best daytrader transaction was on NASDAQ when I went long of 1500 shares of JDSU (JDS Uniphase) at $12.15 on May 12 around 11h30 (on MACD and stochastics indicators on the NASDAQ index and the stock as well) and sold it just before 16h00 at $12.73 for a $844 net profit.

 

I can't wait for my first $1k+ profit from a single trade within the same day because I will not transgress the RULE anymore ;)

 

I'll try to find time to post more often on my 'daytrader initiation'. :)

 

I am very busy playing poker and also with my regular day job (part time thought) which is coaching weightlifting at my club in Brossard, Quebec as well as coaching the Canadian National Team since 1997. Here's my club website: http://www.clubfortius.com

 

And on poker side in 2005 I won a World Series Of Poker Series Golden Ring which was depicted in this blog:

 

PokerPages.com Poker News - Harrah's Showboat, Atlantic City WSOP Circuit Event 1

 

Okay... markets open in 1 minute, I have money to make!!!

 

Take care!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I have completed my 104th trade (208 transactions) yesterday.

 

3- The transactions, ECN and SEC fees are astronomical. I paid more than $1,800 in fees so far.

 

 

$1800 seems a little steep. Who's your broker?

 

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
$1800 seems a little steep. Who's your broker?

 

.

 

That's $8.65 per transaction. If a transaction is a single contract then that's not right. IB is $2/trade. Mirus $2.20.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed with two posters above -- that does seem steep - I've seen plenty of people over time trade profitably if you could just take out their transaction costs - of course, that can't be done in total but it can many times be the difference between positive and negative on the ledger.

 

Keep us up to date on how you're doing -- interesting thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually use Disnat (In Canada) and the price range is from $5 to $9.95 depending on the quantity and price of the stocks.

 

I checked the IB website and the trades starts from $1 (1 cent / share for canadian trades and 1/2 cent per sare for USA)

 

That seems effectively way lower than my broker!

 

Thank you for the insight, as I said in my first post I am a newbie in this field and learning the hard way!!!

 

Guess where I'm gonna call monday morning: Ib canada.

 

Thank you :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blehhhhhhh...

 

Just went through the IB website and in order to open what they call a 'daytrading' account, there is a minimum of 25k needed. I have 15k lol. They say if their algorythm catches a 'regular' account which opens and closes positions daily too often (thats what I do every day), they will freeze the account for 90 days unless it has been identified as a daytrading account with the 25k min. Not good...

 

I'll call my actual broker monday and put pressure on them to give me a 'volume' rebate or some free trades every month since I make more than 200 trades a month...

 

Up until I reach 25k then I switch!!! me=wise newbie (obviously with your help guys!!!) ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe the $25K is a regulator rule in order to allow daytrading account and 4:1 leverage. I don't remember the specifics but a few years ago it was the latest attempt to prevent something -- as if the daytraders were causing a market decline, etc., etc...you see where that got us. Anyway, I'm fairly certain that isn't IB specific but tied to the regulators they comply with.

 

However, armed with this knowledge you really should be paying far less than you are. And, I'm sure others here can weight in with other alternatives as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I believe the $25K is a regulator rule in order to allow daytrading account and 4:1 leverage. I don't remember the specifics but a few years ago it was the latest attempt to prevent something -- as if the daytraders were causing a market decline, etc., etc...you see where that got us. Anyway, I'm fairly certain that isn't IB specific but tied to the regulators they comply with.

 

However, armed with this knowledge you really should be paying far less than you are. And, I'm sure others here can weight in with other alternatives as well.

 

To add to that, you would still benefit from switching brokers. From what I remember... you can make 3 day trades per 5 business day sessions when you are under $25k. That is probably how you're getting away with it now. Anyway, you can also trade forex and futures from an IB acct, so I'd advise making the switch soon.

 

Also, I can't help but wonder... did you come up with a solid strategy and test it (either sim or back-testing)? You'll probably hear it more than once on this forum about how important that is. After reading your posts, I was honestly surprised that you immediately opened up an account and started trading... day trading at that. In any case, good luck to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a lot of new traders immediately jump to the S&P emini since it's the most popular by volume. Personally though I have found it more difficult to trade as a result of all this volume, and competition from very large players for fills at price levels. If I was recommending futures for a beginner I'd start with the Dow e-Mini which will move fairly lock step with the S&P, $5 per point, and a little easier to execute on your limit orders, or the Nasdaq e-Mini $20 per point. Just my :2c:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think a lot of new traders immediately jump to the S&P emini since it's the most popular by volume. Personally though I have found it more difficult to trade as a result of all this volume, and competition from very large players for fills at price levels. If I was recommending futures for a beginner I'd start with the Dow e-Mini which will move fairly lock step with the S&P, $5 per point, and a little easier to execute on your limit orders, or the Nasdaq e-Mini $20 per point. Just my :2c:

 

Well said Mad.

 

Some other reasons the S&P is tougher than some other equity futures are the cross currents that come from international hedging.

 

Because it is the most liquid of them all hedgers from around the world hedge their equity portfolios with this future. When the holder of a portfolio of DAX or FTSE stocks wants to hedge with ES he does the transaction based on prices and values on the DAX or FTSE and not on ES current prices which creates the same noise as US commercial arb trades.

 

 

cheers

 

UB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think a lot of new traders immediately jump to the S&P emini since it's the most popular by volume. Personally though I have found it more difficult to trade as a result of all this volume, and competition from very large players for fills at price levels. If I was recommending futures for a beginner I'd start with the Dow e-Mini which will move fairly lock step with the S&P, $5 per point, and a little easier to execute on your limit orders, or the Nasdaq e-Mini $20 per point. Just my :2c:

 

I agree 100%. New traders seem gravitated towards a contract based on volume and volume alone; however, they fail to realize they are also jumping straight into the deepest of all deep ends. There is a reason the ES has so much volume - b/c the biggest and brightest are there and ready to feast on you. In this arena, your competition not only includes other human traders but you are up against the fastest bots with the biggest pocket books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • NFLX Netflix stock watch, local support and resistance areas at 838.12 and 880.5 at https://stockconsultant.com/?NFLX
    • Date: 8th April 2025.   Markets Rebound Cautiously as US-China Tariff Tensions Deepen     Global markets staged a tentative recovery on Tuesday following a wave of volatility sparked by escalating trade tensions between the United States and China. The Asia-Pacific region showed signs of stability after a chaotic start to the week—though some pockets remained under pressure. Taiwan’s Taiex dropped 4.4%, dragged lower by losses in tech heavyweight TSMC. The world’s largest chipmaker fell another 4% on Tuesday and has now slumped 13.5% since April 2, when US President Donald Trump first unveiled what he called ‘Liberation Day’ tariffs.   However, broader sentiment across the region turned more positive, with several markets rebounding sharply after Monday’s dramatic sell-offs. Japan’s Nikkei 225 surged over 6% in early trading, rebounding from an 18-month low. South Korea’s Kospi rose marginally, and Australia’s ASX 200 gained 1.9%, driven by strength in mining stocks. Hong Kong’s Hang Seng rose 1.6%, though still far from recovering from Monday’s 13.2% crash—its worst day since the 1997 Asian financial crisis. China’s Shanghai Composite added 0.9%.   In Europe, DAX and FTSE 100 are up more than 1% in opening trade. EU Commission President von der Leyen repeated yesterday that the EU had offered reciprocal zero tariffs on manufactured goods previously and continues to stand by that offer. Others are also trying again to talk to Trump to get some sort of agreement that limits the impact.   Much of the rally appeared to be driven by dip-buying, as well as hopes that the intensifying trade war could still be defused through negotiations.   China Strikes Back: ‘We Will Fight to the End’   Tensions reached a boiling point after Trump threatened to impose an additional 50% tariff on all Chinese imports unless Beijing rolled back its retaliatory measures by April 8. ‘If China does not withdraw its 34% increase above their already long-term trading abuses by tomorrow... the United States will impose additional tariffs on China of 50%,’ Trump declared on social media.   If implemented, the new tariffs would bring total US duties on Chinese goods to a staggering 124%, factoring in the existing 20%, the 34% recently announced, and the proposed 50%.   In response, China’s Ministry of Commerce issued a stern warning, stating: ‘The US threat to escalate tariffs is a mistake on top of a mistake... If the US insists on its own way, China will fight to the end.’ The ministry also called for equal and respectful dialogue, though signs of compromise on either side remain scarce.   Beijing acted quickly to contain a market fallout. State funds intervened to support equities, and the People’s Bank of China set the yuan fixing at its weakest level since September 2023 to boost export competitiveness. Additionally, five-year interest rate swaps in China fell to their lowest levels since 2020, indicating potential for further monetary easing.   Trump Talks Tough on EU Too   Trump’s hardline approach extended beyond China. Speaking at a press conference, he rejected the European Union’s offer to eliminate tariffs on cars and industrial goods, accusing the bloc of ‘being very bad to us.’ He insisted that Europe would need to source its energy from the US, claiming the US could ‘knock off $350 billion in one week.’   The EU, meanwhile, backed away from a proposed 50% retaliatory tariff on American whiskey, opting instead for 25% duties on selected US goods in response to Trump’s steel and aluminium tariffs.     Volatile Wall Street Adds to the Drama   Wall Street experienced wild swings on Monday as investors processed the rapidly evolving trade conflict. The S&P 500 briefly fell 4.7% before rebounding 3.4%, nearly erasing its losses in what could have been its biggest one-day jump in years—if it had held. The Dow Jones Industrial Average sank by as much as 1,700 points early in the day but later climbed nearly 900 points before closing 349 points lower, down 0.9%. The Nasdaq ended up 0.1%.   The brief rally was fueled by a false rumour that Trump was considering a 90-day pause on tariffs—rumours that the White House quickly labelled ‘fake news.’ The market's sharp reaction underscored how desperate investors are for any sign that tensions might ease.   Oil Markets in Focus: Goldman Sachs Revises Forecasts   Crude prices also reflected the uncertainty, with US crude briefly dipping below $60 per barrel for the first time since 2021. As of early Tuesday, Brent crude was trading at $64.72, while WTI hovered around $61.26.   Goldman Sachs, in a note dated April 7, lowered its average price forecasts for Brent and WTI through 2025 and 2026, citing mounting recession risks and the potential for higher-than-expected supply from OPEC+.       Under a base-case scenario where the US avoids a recession and tariffs are reduced significantly before the April 9 implementation date, Goldman sees Brent at $62 per barrel and WTI at $58 by December 2025. These figures fall further to $55 and $51, respectively, by the end of 2026. This outlook also assumes moderate output increases from eight OPEC+ countries, with incremental boosts of 130,000–140,000 barrels per day in June and July.   However, should the US slip into a typical recession and OPEC production aligns with the bank’s baseline assumptions, Brent could retreat to $58 by the end of this year and to $50 by December 2026.   In a more bearish scenario involving a global GDP slowdown and no change to OPEC+ output levels, Brent prices might fall to $54 by year-end and $45 by late 2026. The most extreme projection—based on a simultaneous economic downturn and a full reversal of OPEC+ production cuts—would see Brent plunge to below $40 per barrel by the end of 2026.   Goldman noted that oil prices could outperform forecasts significantly if there was a dramatic shift in tariff policy and a surprise in global demand recovery.   Cautious Optimism, But Warnings Persist   With both Washington and Beijing showing no signs of backing down, markets are likely to remain volatile in the days ahead. Investors now turn their attention to upcoming trade meetings and policy decisions, hoping for clarity in what has become one of the most unpredictable trading environments in recent years.   Always trade with strict risk management. Your capital is the single most important aspect of your trading business.   Please note that times displayed based on local time zone and are from time of writing this report. Click HERE to access the full HFM Economic calendar.   Want to learn to trade and analyse the markets? Join our webinars and get analysis and trading ideas combined with better understanding of how markets work. Click HERE to register for FREE!   Click HERE to READ more Market news.   Andria Pichidi HFMarkets   Disclaimer: This material is provided as a general marketing communication for information purposes only and does not constitute an independent investment research. Nothing in this communication contains, or should be considered as containing, an investment advice or an investment recommendation or a solicitation for the purpose of buying or selling of any financial instrument. All information provided is gathered from reputable sources and any information containing an indication of past performance is not a guarantee or reliable indicator of future performance. Users acknowledge that any investment in Leveraged Products is characterized by a certain degree of uncertainty and that any investment of this nature involves a high level of risk for which the users are solely responsible and liable. We assume no liability for any loss arising from any investment made based on the information provided in this communication. This communication must not be reproduced or further distributed without our prior written permission.
    • CVNA Carvana stock watch, rebound to 166.56 support area at https://stockconsultant.com/?CVNA
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.