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Khaosphere

From Poker to Daytrading

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Hello,

 

This is my first post since I am a perfect newbie in the world of trading. I have been a poker player for the past 5 years and I will begin to swing trade and day trade next week. I am Canadian and I live in Montreal. I will mainly trade on the Toronto exchange and NY.

 

I have been studying this idea for quite a while now and I decided to try it for real. I read 4 interesting books about trading (reminiscences of a stock operator, the visual investor,trading for a living, secrets for profiting in a bull and a bear market), opened an account on a discount broker website, etc...

 

The most fascinating thing I have noticed so far are the huge similarities betwen both activities:

 

- the rake in poker is like the commissions in trading

- the psychology is quite the same

- what someone wins is what someone loses (minus the commissions)

- tilting can happen both in poker and in trading

- in both activities, emotions must remain calm in order to avoid a bigger mistake later

- there are huge swings in both activities

- new techniques (or playing style) are tested in a daily basis

etc,etc...

 

I'll let you know maybe every week how things develop but I found your forum very interesting and this is where I found the most information and well classified!

 

:)

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Hello,This is my first post since I am a perfect newbie in the world of trading. I have been a poker player for the past 5 years and I will begin to swing trade and day trade next week. I am Canadian and I live in Montreal. I will mainly trade on the Toronto exchange and NY.I have been studying this idea for quite a while now and I decided to try it for real. I read 4 interesting books about trading (reminiscences of a stock operator, the visual investor,trading for a living, secrets for profiting in a bull and a bear market), opened an account on a discount broker website, etc...The most fascinating thing I have noticed so far are the huge similarities betwen both activities:

 

- the rake in poker is like the commissions in trading

- the psychology is quite the same

- what someone wins is what someone loses (minus the commissions)

- tilting can happen both in poker and in trading

- in both activities, emotions must remain calm in order to avoid a bigger mistake later

- there are huge swings in both activities

- new techniques (or playing style) are tested in a daily basis

etc,etc...

I'll let you know maybe every week how things develop but I found your forum very interesting and this is where I found the most information and well classified!

:)

 

 

 

Yes, indeed - welcome to TL.

 

I have played a few hands myself.

 

There are certain dynamics at work in the markets that make it much better than poker:

 

The markets are like a heads up game where your opponent can never bet, never fold, never raise and must call your every bet. The trader can bet or not bet whenever he wants, fold whenever he wants and even raise his own bet whenever he wants.

 

There is no ante, only a very small rake and only when you decide to play a hand.

 

While it is indeed the "Big Game," you can sit in for any stakes you want.

 

And maybe best of all, the game doesn't get any tougher as the stakes rise. If you can beat ES for a 10 lot, you can beat it for a 100 lot.

 

As in Poker - Information = Equity

 

At the poker table everybody has access to the same raw data. All players can see the community cards, the pot size, every other player's stack size and the actions and reactions of all the other players. The players who can best calculate drawing odds, pot odds, implied odds, EV, an anticipation of the other players' actions and reactions and furhter process that raw data into action decision (bet, check, raise, fold, check-raise) support information is the favorite to see an increase in equity.

 

In the markets trade decision support information is derrived from ticks. Everyone has access to ticks and the trader who can best processe those ticks into higher quality trade decision support information is the trader most likely to see an increase in equity.

 

cheers

 

UB

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Hello,

 

This is my first post since I am a perfect newbie in the world of trading. I have been a poker player for the past 5 years and I will begin to swing trade and day trade next week. I am Canadian and I live in Montreal. I will mainly trade on the Toronto exchange and NY.

 

I have been studying this idea for quite a while now and I decided to try it for real. I read 4 interesting books about trading (reminiscences of a stock operator, the visual investor,trading for a living, secrets for profiting in a bull and a bear market), opened an account on a discount broker website, etc...

 

The most fascinating thing I have noticed so far are the huge similarities betwen both activities:

 

- the rake in poker is like the commissions in trading

- the psychology is quite the same

- what someone wins is what someone loses (minus the commissions)

- tilting can happen both in poker and in trading

- in both activities, emotions must remain calm in order to avoid a bigger mistake later

- there are huge swings in both activities

- new techniques (or playing style) are tested in a daily basis

etc,etc...

 

I'll let you know maybe every week how things develop but I found your forum very interesting and this is where I found the most information and well classified!

 

:)

 

Khaosphere, good luck with your Trading. I think you will have a real advantage having played poker for 5 years. I will be really interested to hear how you get on. I recently read about a pro poker player called Andrew Omara who recently started trading forex and his poker skills were a great help.

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Started trading today.

 

- Opened my trading account with 10k. (plan on adding 5k this week)

 

- 8 trades completed and closed.

 

- 4 trades profitable and 4 trades where I loss money.

 

- the trades were 7 long and 1 short.

 

- I managed a $56 net profit overall (after Commissions and ECN/SEC fees).

 

- 3 trades automatically filled due to a VTSO (virtual trailing stop order) placed maybe too close to the trading range.

 

Learning a lot, fascinated! :)

 

most of the time it's analysis and wait, few decisions to take very fast. love it!

 

Khaosphere.

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For now I try my hands on stocks, mainly high volume stocks with very liquid market.

 

I traded 8 different stocks today, the company are not really important since I use technical analysis intraday strategy.

 

Since I'm canadian, I started with stock on the TSX (Toronto Stock Exchange) but NYSE / NASDAQ will be added this week also.

 

I plan on trading also futures / options / gold / currencies in the future.

 

:)

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3rd day of trading completed:

 

- 13 trades completed and closed (26 transactions).

 

- 7 trades profitable and 6 trades where I loss money.

 

- the trades were 11 long and 2 short.

 

- I managed a $216 net profit overall (after Commissions and ECN/SEC fees).

 

- now able to adjust the VTSO not too close to avoid automatic fills when there is a small change of direction.

 

Still learning a lot, still fascinated!

 

most of the time it's analysis and wait, few decisions to take very fast. love it!

 

Khaosphere.

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Khaosphere thats a good start. I look forward to reading more of your posts. Got to say this is a great website for traders. I am looking forward to reading the price and volume threads. Khaosphere I really want to improve my online poker can you recommend and good websites or books to read.

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We run a series of hybrid propshop/hedgefunds and only hire traders with demonstrable poker skills/understanding as per the lower left paragraph on the back cover of the book as shown below.

 

CoversSpine.jpg

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Hello all!!!

 

Yes I'm still at it and I enjoy it more than ever.

 

I have completed my 104th trade (208 transactions) yesterday. I'm still walking up the learning curve but so far so good!!!

 

59 trades were with profits - 45 were losses.

 

Overall I am losing $467 so far. Why I'm losing if almost 60% of my transactions were with profits?

 

I identified 5 major points:

 

1- I tend to keep my positions a bit too long when they are not going in the direction I predicted.

 

2- The 1000 points mini-crash last week cost me $524 (I had 3 positions when it happened and all 3 hit the stop protection in a record time and my 3 positions were sold!). Too bad I had 3 long positions instead of short...

 

3- The transactions, ECN and SEC fees are astronomical. I paid more than $1,800 in fees so far.

 

4- I sell my winning positions too fast and I don't wait until the trend changes (yeah, at first I was excited like a baby to see 3-4 positions flashing in green, now I get used to it lol).

 

5- I transgressed the daytraders law that stipulates that we must NEVER keep a stock overnight. I did it 3 times and lost on the 3 positions I had. I thought that I would save the commission by keeping the stock overnight... it did cost me more than the commissions!!!

 

So this is it so far. I am learning the hard way in a very volatile market but I like it that way.

 

On the other hand, I made great moves and out of a $15,000 starting capital I was able to do many $200+ net profit transactions within less than 1 hour.

 

My best daytrader transaction was on NASDAQ when I went long of 1500 shares of JDSU (JDS Uniphase) at $12.15 on May 12 around 11h30 (on MACD and stochastics indicators on the NASDAQ index and the stock as well) and sold it just before 16h00 at $12.73 for a $844 net profit.

 

I can't wait for my first $1k+ profit from a single trade within the same day because I will not transgress the RULE anymore ;)

 

I'll try to find time to post more often on my 'daytrader initiation'. :)

 

I am very busy playing poker and also with my regular day job (part time thought) which is coaching weightlifting at my club in Brossard, Quebec as well as coaching the Canadian National Team since 1997. Here's my club website: http://www.clubfortius.com

 

And on poker side in 2005 I won a World Series Of Poker Series Golden Ring which was depicted in this blog:

 

PokerPages.com Poker News - Harrah's Showboat, Atlantic City WSOP Circuit Event 1

 

Okay... markets open in 1 minute, I have money to make!!!

 

Take care!!

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I have completed my 104th trade (208 transactions) yesterday.

 

3- The transactions, ECN and SEC fees are astronomical. I paid more than $1,800 in fees so far.

 

 

$1800 seems a little steep. Who's your broker?

 

.

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$1800 seems a little steep. Who's your broker?

 

.

 

That's $8.65 per transaction. If a transaction is a single contract then that's not right. IB is $2/trade. Mirus $2.20.

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Agreed with two posters above -- that does seem steep - I've seen plenty of people over time trade profitably if you could just take out their transaction costs - of course, that can't be done in total but it can many times be the difference between positive and negative on the ledger.

 

Keep us up to date on how you're doing -- interesting thread.

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I actually use Disnat (In Canada) and the price range is from $5 to $9.95 depending on the quantity and price of the stocks.

 

I checked the IB website and the trades starts from $1 (1 cent / share for canadian trades and 1/2 cent per sare for USA)

 

That seems effectively way lower than my broker!

 

Thank you for the insight, as I said in my first post I am a newbie in this field and learning the hard way!!!

 

Guess where I'm gonna call monday morning: Ib canada.

 

Thank you :)

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Blehhhhhhh...

 

Just went through the IB website and in order to open what they call a 'daytrading' account, there is a minimum of 25k needed. I have 15k lol. They say if their algorythm catches a 'regular' account which opens and closes positions daily too often (thats what I do every day), they will freeze the account for 90 days unless it has been identified as a daytrading account with the 25k min. Not good...

 

I'll call my actual broker monday and put pressure on them to give me a 'volume' rebate or some free trades every month since I make more than 200 trades a month...

 

Up until I reach 25k then I switch!!! me=wise newbie (obviously with your help guys!!!) ;)

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I believe the $25K is a regulator rule in order to allow daytrading account and 4:1 leverage. I don't remember the specifics but a few years ago it was the latest attempt to prevent something -- as if the daytraders were causing a market decline, etc., etc...you see where that got us. Anyway, I'm fairly certain that isn't IB specific but tied to the regulators they comply with.

 

However, armed with this knowledge you really should be paying far less than you are. And, I'm sure others here can weight in with other alternatives as well.

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I believe the $25K is a regulator rule in order to allow daytrading account and 4:1 leverage. I don't remember the specifics but a few years ago it was the latest attempt to prevent something -- as if the daytraders were causing a market decline, etc., etc...you see where that got us. Anyway, I'm fairly certain that isn't IB specific but tied to the regulators they comply with.

 

However, armed with this knowledge you really should be paying far less than you are. And, I'm sure others here can weight in with other alternatives as well.

 

To add to that, you would still benefit from switching brokers. From what I remember... you can make 3 day trades per 5 business day sessions when you are under $25k. That is probably how you're getting away with it now. Anyway, you can also trade forex and futures from an IB acct, so I'd advise making the switch soon.

 

Also, I can't help but wonder... did you come up with a solid strategy and test it (either sim or back-testing)? You'll probably hear it more than once on this forum about how important that is. After reading your posts, I was honestly surprised that you immediately opened up an account and started trading... day trading at that. In any case, good luck to you.

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I think a lot of new traders immediately jump to the S&P emini since it's the most popular by volume. Personally though I have found it more difficult to trade as a result of all this volume, and competition from very large players for fills at price levels. If I was recommending futures for a beginner I'd start with the Dow e-Mini which will move fairly lock step with the S&P, $5 per point, and a little easier to execute on your limit orders, or the Nasdaq e-Mini $20 per point. Just my :2c:

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I think a lot of new traders immediately jump to the S&P emini since it's the most popular by volume. Personally though I have found it more difficult to trade as a result of all this volume, and competition from very large players for fills at price levels. If I was recommending futures for a beginner I'd start with the Dow e-Mini which will move fairly lock step with the S&P, $5 per point, and a little easier to execute on your limit orders, or the Nasdaq e-Mini $20 per point. Just my :2c:

 

Well said Mad.

 

Some other reasons the S&P is tougher than some other equity futures are the cross currents that come from international hedging.

 

Because it is the most liquid of them all hedgers from around the world hedge their equity portfolios with this future. When the holder of a portfolio of DAX or FTSE stocks wants to hedge with ES he does the transaction based on prices and values on the DAX or FTSE and not on ES current prices which creates the same noise as US commercial arb trades.

 

 

cheers

 

UB

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I think a lot of new traders immediately jump to the S&P emini since it's the most popular by volume. Personally though I have found it more difficult to trade as a result of all this volume, and competition from very large players for fills at price levels. If I was recommending futures for a beginner I'd start with the Dow e-Mini which will move fairly lock step with the S&P, $5 per point, and a little easier to execute on your limit orders, or the Nasdaq e-Mini $20 per point. Just my :2c:

 

I agree 100%. New traders seem gravitated towards a contract based on volume and volume alone; however, they fail to realize they are also jumping straight into the deepest of all deep ends. There is a reason the ES has so much volume - b/c the biggest and brightest are there and ready to feast on you. In this arena, your competition not only includes other human traders but you are up against the fastest bots with the biggest pocket books.

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    • A custom Semi-Log Scale Oscillator indicator is now available for MT5 on Metaquotes website and directly in the MT5 platform. https://www.mql5.com/en/market/product/114705 This indicator is an anchored semi-logarithmic scale oscillator. A logarithmic scale is widely used by professional data scientists to more accurately map information collected throughout a timeframe, in the same way that MT5 maps out price data. In fact, the underlying logic of this indicator was freely obtained from an overseas biotech scientist. A log-log chart displays logarithmic values on both the x (horizontal) and y (vertical) axes, which generally produces a straight line that points up, down, or remains flat. A straight line is not very useful for trading markets because such a straight line is so smoothed that actual price values that appear over time are very far away from the line study. In contrast, a semi-log chart is only logged on one axis--generally, the y axis. Such a semi-log chart is well suited for trading markets because the time (x) axis is preserved in its original form while at the same time, providing a graduated y scale where the distance between price increments progressively increases as price rises higher (and decreases as price falls lower). This allows us to establish a zero level for a low price, clearly view trends on straighter angles, and clearly observe amplified price spikes at high prices. Accordingly, this indicator employs a semi-log scale on the y axis only. This indicator is anchored because it allows you to specify a start time for calculation of price bars. The settings are as follows: Year.Month.Day Hour:Minute - defaults to 1970.01.01 00:01 - if left on default setting, the indicator automatically detects the earliest price bar in chart history--even where the year 1970 is not in history. Notes appear in the indicator settings window. Size of first pip step to log - defaults to 135 - this default is suitable for higher timeframes such a MN1 (monthly), while 5 is suitable for lower timeframes such as M1 (minute). Ultimately, optimal settings will depend on the timeframe that you attach the indicator to, the level of price volatility within that timeframe, and start time that you choose. Remember... The semi-log formula calculates from low to high, so your start time must always be a major swing low. Again, notes appear in the indicator settings window. The standard (built-in) MT5 indicators that can be applied to the "Previous indicator's data" can be applied to this indicator. Indicator lines (indicator buffers) can be called with iCustom in Expert Advisors created by Expert Advisor builder software or custom coded Expert Advisors. The log scale Open, High, Low, and Close prices are buffers: No empty values; and No repainting.
    • A custom Gann Candles indicator is now available for MT5 on the Metaquotes website and directly in the MT5 platform. https://www.mql5.com/en/market/product/126398 This Gann Candles indicator incorporates a series of W.D. Gann's strategies into a single trading indicator. Gann was a legendary trader who lived from 1878 to 1955. He started out as a cotton farmer and started trading at age 24 in 1902. His strategies included geometry, astronomy, astrology, times cycles, and ancient math. Although Gann wrote several books, none of them contain all of his strategies so it takes years of studying to learn them. He was also a devout scholar of the Bible and the ancient Greek and Egyptian cultures, and he was a 33rd degree Freemason of the Scottish Rite. In an effort to simplify what I believe are the best of Gann's strategies, I reduced them into one indicator that simply colors your preexisting price bars when those strategies are in-sync versus out-of-sync. This greatly reduces potential chart clutter. Also, I reduced the number of input settings down to only two: FastFilter, and SlowFilter Both FastFilter and SlowFilter must be set to 5 or more, as noted in the Inputs tab upon attaching the indicator to your chart. Gann Candles works on regular time-based charts (M5, M15, M20, etc.) and custom charts (Renko, range bars, etc.). The indicator does not repaint. When using the default settings, blue candles form bullish price patterns, gray candles form flat (sideways) price patterns, and white candles form bearish price patterns. The simplest way to trade Gann Candles is to buy at the close of a blue candle and exit at the close of a gray candle, and then sell at the close of a white candle and exit at the close of a gray candle.
    • A custom Anchored VWAP with Standard Deviation Bands indicator for MT5 is now available on the Metaquotes website and directly through the MT5 platform. https://www.mql5.com/en/market/product/99389 The volume weighted average price indicator is a line study indicator that shows in the main chart window of MT5. The indicator monitors the typical price and then trading volume used to automatically push the indicator line toward heavily traded prices. These prices are where the most contracts (or lots) have been traded. Then those weighted prices are averaged over a look back period, and the indicator shows the line study at those pushed prices. The indicator in this post allows the trader to set the daily start time of that look back period. This indicator automatically shows 5 daily look back periods: the currently forming period, and the 4 previous days based on that same start time. For this reason, this indicator is intended for intraday trading only. The indicator automatically shows vertical daily start time separator lines for those days as well. Both typical prices and volumes are accumulated throughout the day, and processed throughout the day. Important update: v102 of this indicator allows you to anchor the start of the VWAP and bands to the most recent major high or low, even when that high or low appears in your chart several days ago. This is how institutional traders and liquidity providers often trade markets with the VWAP. This indicator also shows 6 standard deviation bands, similarly to the way that a Bollinger Bands indicator shows such bands. The trader is able to set 3 individual standard deviation multiplier values above the volume weighted average price line study, and 3 individual standard deviation multiplier values below the volume weighted average price line study. Higher multiplier values will generate rapidly expanding standard deviation bands because again, the indicator is cumulative. The following indicator parameters can be changed by the trader in the indicator Inputs tab: Volume Type [defaults to: Real volume] - Set to Tick volume for over-the-counter markets such as most forex markets. Real volume is an additional setting for centralized markets such as the United States Chicago Mercantile Exchange. VWAP Start Hour [defaults to: 07] - Set according to broker's or broker-dealer's MT5 server time in 24 hour format. For example, in the New York, United States time zone, 07 is approximately the London, United Kingdom business open hour. VWAP Start Minute [defaults to: 00] - Set according to broker's or broker-dealer's MT5 server time in 24 hour format. For example, 00 is on the hour with no delay of minutes within that hour. StdDev Multiplier 1 [defaults to: 1.618] - Set desired standard deviation distance between the volume weighted average price line study and its nearest upper and lower bands. For example, 1.618 is a basic Fibonacci ratio. Some traders prefer 1.000 or 1.250 here. StdDev Multiplier 2 [defaults to: 3.236] - Set desired standard deviation distance between the volume weighted average price line study and its middle upper and lower bands. For example, 3.236 is 1.618 (above) + 1.618. Some traders prefer 2.000 or 1.500 here. StdDev Multiplier 3 [defaults to: 4.854] - Set desired standard deviation distance between the volume weighted average price line study and its furthest upper and lower bands. For example, 4.854 is 1.618 (above) + 3.236 (above). Some traders prefer 3.000 or 2.000 here. VWAP Color [defaults to: Aqua] - Set desired VWAP line study color. This color automatically sets the color of the start time separators as well. SD1 Color [defaults to: White] - Set desired color of nearest upper and lower standard deviation lines. SD2 Color [defaults to: White] - Set desired color of middle upper and lower standard deviation lines. SD3 Color [defaults to: White] - Set desired color of furthest upper and lower standard deviation lines. Just to clarify, popular standard deviation bands settings are: 1.618, 3.236, and 4.854; or 1.000, 2.000, and 3.000; or 1.250, 1.500, and 2.000. Examples of usage *: In a ranging (sideways) market, enter a trade at the extremes of the standard deviation bands (SD3) and exit when price returns to the VWAP line study. Trade between SD1Pos and SD1 Neg, alternately buying and selling from one standard deviation line to the other. In a trending (rising or falling) market, enter a buy when a price bar opens above the VWAP line study, and exit at the nearest standard deviation band above (SD1Pos). Optionally, repeat the same trade but substitute SD1Pos for the VWAP, and SD2Pos for SD1. Reverse for sell; or Trade all lines (VWAP, SD1Pos, SD2Pos, and SD3Pos) in the same way. Again, reverse for sell. Indicator lines (indicator buffers) can be called with iCustom in Expert Advisors created by Expert Advisor builder software or custom coded Expert Advisors: No empty values; and No repainting.
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