Does Anyone Truly Make a Living Solely Trading the E-minis???

[stratenworld1 10]

I have a few good trades that have come up with on my own and I would like to add a few more to my little portfolio. Would anyone be willing to share some profitable setups? I have a trade that happens 30 minutes after the markets opens and another that happens within the first 30 minutes. The accuracy is extremely high for both. Anyone want to help me out or just swap info?

[BlowFish 10]

Efficiency. Once one learns to see the market signals provided by The Price / Volume Relationship in one market, one simply needs to apply those very same principles onto another - more efficient - market in an effort to earn more money per unit time.

 

The way to make 'more money per unit time' is by growing your account and increasing size. Eventually the issue (if you want to go that far) is finding markets that will accommodate the size you need to trade to make how much you want to make. Compound growth will trump 'efficiency' every single time. (obviously you need to maintain strangle tight control of risk too). I wouldn't mention it but imvho this I think that this is actually dangerous advice because it focuses attention in completely the wrong area and fosters a way of thinking about the markets that is not particularly healthy.

 

Eidt: I might have got hold of the wrong end of the stick However I do remember Jacks 'continuous capital extraction' or whatever he called it.

Edited April 5, 2010 by BlowFish

[Kiwi 16]

Exactly what i was talking about in one of my previous post, the milk of human kindness soon turns sour in places like this. The witch hunts begins and why so, and for what need? The only outcome being the OP topic getting completely de-railed.

 

And then off to your blog you go and post under "Thinking about Taking the Blog Down "

 

"It really annoys me when you go out of your way to try and help other people, you're doing it for nothing and they just spit it back in your face."

 

So you interested me enough to look at the blog and to read a few of your posts. And I came across:

 

- a blog with sweet f a content, but a lot of ego

- wonderful statements like "Without coming across like i'm putting myself on a pedestal, or knocking the fourm"

 

and, just to fill in the complete picture:

- Trading has cost me two relationships, with the third one currently going out the window. I don't regret anything, because i looked back on it all with glee, both the ups and downs - mainly because now - i'm a pretty awsome trader (without sounding like i'm blowing my own trumpet )

 

 

And I have the following (certainly unwelcome) advice for you:

 

- You should close the blog down; you're just making yourself look like some sort of egotist and not providing value to anyone despite the trumpeting of your wish to do so.

- When you start of with statement like "I'm not a racist but I want to say" then .. guess what .. do you get it?

- You didn't lose 2 relationships going on 3 because of trading. If you have sufficient insight you'll realize that you lost them because of the issues raised in my first two points.

 

 

And to think I came back from Easter intending to be nice to everyone and spread the joy of Chocolate. Ahhh ... well ... next post

[DugDug 10]

interesting conversation....off topic but interesting.....

one thing I have to comment on by 3884843? and take this how you want, this is just my two cents and I dont care who you are, or what you do.....

 

post #24 "wouldn't be able afford my fee or 20% take of monthly profits."

 

My experience of mentorship over the years of my trading is that its actually done for free. Seminars and charging for advice is not mentorship.

I guess the business model is based on taking a clip from traders. Is there a money back guarantee if there are losses? it sounds like you have a free option here.....pretty sweet.

 

A fee and 20% of profits sounds like a hedge fund, especially when the clients put the risk money up. From my own personal view if I found some one who could make me a lot of money and would charge me fees for it then great (I invest in hedge funds already so I know how this works) but why oh why would I want to pay them, for me to do the work?

If I loved the markets - and I guess my career has been in them so I must like them some what - I would want to trade them myself, make money, etc; etc; but to be charged to do this as well. ..... sorry it just confuses me a little..... otherwise why wouldn't I just invest with you as a properly setup fund?

 

(as I said this is not meant to be a dig, or sour milk, just something that confused me and I figure is something that possible riles others up as well, trading emini futures when you should be trading the majors seems odd, and also the sales technique of "we only take the best" into our educational series smacks of the Bernie Madoff - hence the comments.....if its legit then I guess the lesson may be that the sales might need some tweaking)

Edited April 6, 2010 by DugDug

[BlowFish 10]

The model seems straight forward enough DugDug, a prop shop 'mash up' really. The fee is for the training. Reasonably attractive deal on the face of it.

[DugDug 10]

Hi BF - I am just trying to be polite......

It is clearly a numbers game for the head traders, its like chopping the losers quickly.

It can be a lucrative deal for all parties involved at least for a time. eg; once you have the training, once you have the skills, make some money for a few years, then access to capital is easier, if you keep 80% of what you make.

I reckon 8643436434 is legit, probably makes tons of money and trades like he says.

I just think mentorship is a spurious name.

Charge for training, then take a clip for providing capital - call it like it is.

[Cory2679 11]

And you claim to be 24 years old in that S&C interview, yet in those posts on Facebook (made in the same year as the S&C interview) you claim to have been the president of your firm for SEVEN years. So you've been the president of your firm since you were...17?

 

Oh yeah, and that S&C magazine, the age was a typo, i'm not 24, I had just turned 26 when the interview was conducted, and I am now 27.

 

I'm usually one to avoid the bickering that goes on here, but I just couldn't help but point this out...:o:o:o

 

Even if you opt to have your age and date of birth hidden on TL, a while ago I inadvertently ran across a way view age anyway...

 

And here we see...

 

 

It doesn't make sense...it's closer to the S&C magazine age (perhaps they rounded up?). Seems sketchy. What's more likely, 8273849348 entering a birthday that makes him a few years younger for no apparent reason AND S&C magazine making a typo, OR that 8238473892 has lied. You decide. To me, there's only one logical conclusion. And just one lie, for me, totally discredits the person...even if they had something of value to contribute...anything from then on could be a lie and that person can no longer be trusted.

 

And just to check, my age on TL is correct...I'm 24 (DOB: 12/24/85)...

 

[zdo 20]

Sure it is...it's doing the same activity, but without the pressure/real risk...serves the same purpose.

 

Nope. A closer equivalent of Sim here would be a rope stretched out straight but still in contact with the ground.

The middle photo is the like trading with very tiny stops. Probs of falls / failure (for presumably the beginning walker / trader) is higher, so ‘costs’ of each fall / failure is lowered… unfortunately in trading this will pull a trader off trading the system correctly and ‘groove train’ the wrong things. What you repeat…

Generally – all this training wheel, etc stuff is not healthy or appropriate analogy ;( long term

 

btw – I’m not anti-Sim! But I have concluded that Sim’s benefits are much more limited, they drop off much more precipitously, and more quickly become a trap and a detriment to LONG term success than the current industry paradigm would have noobies buy into…

 

The fact is that if you can't make money SIM, you can't make money live.

That’s like saying it you don’t have the motor skills to walk the rope lying on the ground you’ll never walk one suspended… duh …really not saying much.... This needs to be said same time - Sim can diminish crucial skills while it is supposedly building good skills and Sim can surreptitiously bind fear as much as ameliorate it

ie it is not the cure all the industry sycophants would have us blve.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to practice in SIM before going live.

Yes, and it’s perfectly reasonable, may even be ultimately a strange but strong beginning, to practice walking a rope stretched out on the ground before real tight rope walking… but benefits are much more limited and drop off much more precipitously and quickly becomes a trap and a detriment to LONG term success… yada yada

 

Noobies – almost ‘everyone’ in the crowd is yelling Sim Sim at you … one or two old saws are quietly telling you to beaware…

 

...and to stay on topic - to the OP question. Yes, I do truly make a great living trading the e-minis intraday. I trade other instruments too (bonds, fx, ags, etc) but 70% minimum of my size is in the ES.. and yes, I do have my 10,000 hours in...

Edited April 6, 2010 by zdo

[Cory2679 11]

Nope. A closer equivalent of Sim here would be a rope stretched out straight but still in contact with the ground.

The middle photo is the like trading with very tiny stops.

 

I would disagree...because a rope in contact with the ground would not require the same level of technique as a rope suspended a few inches above the ground...a rope suspended a mile above the ground would require the same technique as a rope suspended a few inches above the ground.

 

SIM trading profitably requires the same technique as trading profitably live...the problem is that the psychological effects of pressure and real risk won't allow the trader to trade freely with the same technique as SIM due to emotions like fear.

 

Rather than the middle picture being the equivalent of trading with "very tiny stops," I would suggest, if not equivalent with SIM trading, that it would be the equivent of trading with very tiny size...because the technique should be consistent...you don't learn with really tight stops and then gradually widen your stops...you may learn with really small size, and gradually increase your size.

 

...I have concluded that Sim’s benefits are much more limited, they drop off much more precipitously, and more quickly become a trap and a detriment to LONG term success than the current industry paradigm would have noobies buy into…

 

I'm not meaning to be disagreeable...I know you have more experience than I do and I definitely agree with what you're saying here. I just wanted to comment on that first part.

 

-Cory

Edited April 6, 2010 by Cory2679

[zdo 20]

Cory2679,

 

Good points.

 

All these analogies end up falling short though...

(and what the heck while we're at it, let's kill all our trading metaphors too )

 

My main interest was not to make you (or anyone else) wrong about Sim. It was to let noobies know that it is a two edged sword and that '2nd edge' makes contact a lot quicker than most would initially imagine...

[emg 12]

I bet 99% of the people in here are brokers and vendors. they want to tell you "its gaurantee risk free trading futures. Please open an account with me." Or, my $3000 robot software system is gaurantee profit!"

[MidKnight 12]

I bet 99% of the people in here are brokers and vendors.

 

I'll take the other side of your bet!

[sevensa 10]

I bet 99% of the people in here are brokers and vendors. they want to tell you "its gaurantee risk free trading futures. Please open an account with me." Or, my $3000 robot software system is gaurantee profit!"

 

Really? What are you basing this on? Do you see many of those kind of messages on here?

[thalestrader 14]

The fact is that if you can't make money SIM, you can't make money live. It's perfectly reasonable to practice in SIM before going live.

 

It may be more accurate to say that if you can make money sim, you probably won't make money live - not right away, at any rate.

 

For the record, I've never made one thin dime sim trading. I have not tried, but I am pretty sure that there is no way to withdraw sim "profits," much less actually spend them.

 

Sure, it is reasonable to practice in Sim before going live. But Zdo's point is that just because you can show a sim profit, do not think the transition to live hard money trading will be as simple as changing your log-in.

 

Sim has its place. I use it from time to time myself - mostly it is simply a "game" component I will use while observing a new instrument or market or trying to get a handle on a change in volatility in a market I do trade.

 

But I never used a sim or paper account until after I already put in my 10K hours. Every trade I made while learning was live - each and every one. While it took longer than I would have liked to get where I am now (certainly much longer than I had anticipated that it would take) I am not sure I ever would have gotten here if I had had access to a sim account like you folks do today. I see a lot of folks addicted to sim trading - it is a drug and it is a crutch. How many here and elsewhere have you seen sim trade for 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, and when finally posting profits day after day the trader goes live, immediately has two or three big losing day's in a row, and rather than trade through it he or she immediately runs back to the comfortable shelter of the sim platform for 6 more months of "practice". If you can trade sim with 90% profitable sessions, and then blow out three live in a row - you do not need more sim. You need to find out what bad habits work in sim but do not work live. In order to uncover those, you need to trade live - not sim.

 

Do you know what a market order is? Do you know what a limit order is? Do you know how to place OCO or bracket orders so that you are protected by a stop loss that will be cancelled if your profit limit order is filled? Do you know how to cancel an order? Do you know how to check to see whether or not you have any open orders? Do you know how to move your stop loss to reduce risk and capture profits(assuming that is part of your trading strategy)? If so, you are ready to graduate from sim and start trading, assuming, of course, that you have a sytem, method, approach, or whatever that you plan on applying to your selected market.

 

I think Zdo is dead on with his assessment of sim trading and its limits. I too am not anti-sim. But, if I had to do it all over again, I'd do it the same way I did and never touch a paper trading account until I had learned enough to be protected from its dangers. Better to trade live and small than fake and large (or fake and small).

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[Dinerotrader 10]

I see a lot of folks addicted to sim trading - it is a drug and it is a crutch. How many here and elsewhere have you seen sim trade for 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, and when finally posting profits day after day the trader goes live, immediately has two or three big losing day's in a row, and rather than trade through it he or she immediately runs back to the comfortable shelter of the sim platform for 6 more months of "practice". If you can trade sim with 90% profitable sessions, and then blow out three live in a row - you do not need more sim. You need to find out what bad habits work in sim but do not work live. In order to uncover those, you need to trade live - not sim.

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

 

In other words. Don't do what I have done.

[MCM 10]

. and yes, I do have my 10,000 hours in...

 

And there in lies the secret...

 

Working - I figure - on my 1000-1250 range.

[snowbird 10]

I bet 99% of the people in here are brokers and vendors. they want to tell you "its gaurantee risk free trading futures. Please open an account with me." Or, my $3000 robot software system is gaurantee profit!"

 

Not been my experience at all.... spend some time here if your serious about trading and willing to put in the time... the brokers and vendors are easy to spot, and most don't stick around too long.

[sicktrader 10]

I have been trading for quite a few years, but only the past two years as my sole income. I gamble a lot, well I used to gamble a lot in regards to sports, horses, and anything else where I thought I had an edge. I would be in Vegas at least one week a month. While I did profit quite a bit there wasn't ever any pressure on me because of my real job. Well, the home building went to bust, and I had enough cash and I was profitable at trading so I figured that is what I will do to continue to provide for my family. It is different when everything is on the line, no doubt. I have been there before and so have many of you. My first advice is If you have a system theat works, you need to stick to it. Secondly, and most importantly if this is your living, YOU NEED TO CASH OUT. Whatever works for you is fine, I cash out when I double my bankroll. Money in a trading account is not the same as money in a bank account. This, in my mind, is the most important rule in trading for a living.

[Cory2679 11]

I see a lot of folks addicted to sim trading - it is a drug and it is a crutch. How many here and elsewhere have you seen sim trade for 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, and when finally posting profits day after day the trader goes live, immediately has two or three big losing day's in a row, and rather than trade through it he or she immediately runs back to the comfortable shelter of the sim platform for 6 more months of "practice". If you can trade sim with 90% profitable sessions, and then blow out three live in a row - you do not need more sim. You need to find out what bad habits work in sim but do not work live. In order to uncover those, you need to trade live - not sim.

 

Thanks for the post, Thales. I see what you're saying and agree with you.

 

However, I can't help but feel that if a trader trades SIM unprofitably week after week, that it's a waste of time and money to go live.

 

So...I would suggest that a trader like that continue to trade SIM, but to avoid getting addicted to it, tell him/herself ahead of time that once he/she achieves 2 weeks in a row of profitable SIM trading, it's time to move live for the first time (ideally a micro forex account, IMO) and never go back to SIM (unless on the side to test a new market/strategy, etc.). What do you think?

[maxima 10]

Sorry I don't follow you argument - its performance related and requires loads of practice.

 

You learn to ride a bike using stabilisers.

 

TradeRunner

No. You learn that way. And I dont.

 

But the argument was - drawing and reading about bicycles, learning how to fix them and names of the part but never riding them....

 

that is correct analogue to paper trading vs live trading...... this is how I see it.

[Cory2679 11]

...drawing and reading about bicycles, learning how to fix them and names of the part but never riding them....

 

that is correct analogue to paper trading vs live trading...

 

I'm not trying to promote/defend sim trading...but in response to this particular post...my perspective is that this would be more analogous to reading about trading in books/forums/blogs/etc., watching videos, chatting, going to seminars/classes, etc...but never actually trading...

 

If we're talking about bike riding, to me, sim trading is analogous to riding a stationary bike in a health club and trading very small size is analogous to riding a bike with training wheels/stabilizers...I guess...although as it's already been stated, all of these analogies probably truly fall short, anyway.

 

 

 

 

[Head2k 10]

I've been sim trading for quite some time. And I really think that until you show consistent profits on the sim there is no reason to start live.

On the other hand, I undersand zdo and Thales, but i must admit that it took me quite long to come to this understanding. The problem is that on the sim you know you don't risk anything. And that can lead to building bad habits and/or it can prevent you from taking the trading seriously.

If you had to start trading live, you wouldn't start until you had a perfectly defined and tested system. Assuming you got over the initial naivity stage. But with the sim there is no need for that. You can just try it and see. And that's what makes the sim counter-productive. If you are lazy or you just don't realize or don't want to realize what it actually takes to develop a trading plan, then the sim provides an alternative. You don't need a plan, you can trade ideas or concepts. But this is not the way how to develop a system, not even the way how to test anything. It is just a way to keep playing and a way to delay taking the trading seriously and doing what it takes to develop and test a system.

[TradeRunner 10]

Because day trading is a performace related activity (see Brett Steenbarger for what it means).

 

I'm assuming you only accept Steenbarger's definition of a performance related activity and ingore his other opinions on this subject?

 

Nothing is more common that the notion that you learn to trade by trading. I humbly ask that you check that premise. You would not learn to fly a plane by getting in the cockpit and flying a jumbo jet, nor would you learn surgery by taking a knife to a patient. Why should trading be any different? Every performance field I have researched progress from knowledge acquisitions to skill drilling to simulated performance to real-time rehersals. Dispite this seemingly obvious truth, we see few traders attempt to learn through training. Instead, they approach trading in an amateur mode, only to lose money and court frustration.

Brett N. Steenbarger, Enhancing Trader Performance p.90

 

 

 

TradeRunner

[TradeRunner 10]

But I never used a sim or paper account until after I already put in my 10K hours.

 

Hi Thales

 

What did you do during your 10K hours?

 

TradeRunner

[maxima 10]

I'm assuming you only accept Steenbarger's definition of a performance related activity and ingore his other opinions on this subject?

 

TradeRunner

yes you nailed it. I have strong selective vision, I am alergic to bs and also an arrogant SoB :helloooo: