Does Anyone Truly Make a Living Solely Trading the E-minis???

[ktartarotti 10]

I would like to open this topic to offer a thread of hope to all of those that find it impossible to believe that one can actually make a living trading solely the e-minis.

 

If you have done it for over a year, it would be great if you could share your experience and how you got there.

 

I just ask that promoters refrain from trying to offer systems and methods that traders that are truly trying to make a living of trading the e-minis will have to spend more money to become successful.

[Cory2679 11]

I would like to open this topic to offer a thread of hope to all of those that find it impossible to believe that one can actually make a living trading solely the e-minis.

 

Are you under the impression that it is more difficult to make a living trading "solely the e-minis" as opposed to trading something else? If so, what else? What makes it more difficult to make a living trading solely the e-minis?

 

I'm sure there are successful traders that trade solely indices, or solely currencies, or solely energies, or whatever. I'm not sure what difference it makes...?

[emg 12]

To become a full time traders, it will take years. Full time trader is smiliar to becoming a lawyer, Doctors, etc. The problem is many people believe day trading es is "get rich quick." If it takes 5 yrs to become a doctor, it will take 5 yrs to become a full time trader. I have no clue why people believe they can become a full time trader less than 1 yr. If that is true, why does it take a long time to become a doctor, lawyer, etc.

 

According to the Gov report, 97% of the people lose trading in the futures market. One of the reason they lose is, they failed to understand trading futures involves substantial risk and only risk capital should be used. All brokerages and few trading school websites have those risk disclaimer. But for some reason, most people FAILED or ignore the risk disclaimer.

 

For those who are a successful full time traders took them yrs to get there. Plus, they fully understood that trading es is NOT A GET RICH QUICK and trading futures involves SUBSTANTIAL RISK!!!!!!

 

hope this help

[86834 10]

In my opinion the emini spoo is the best market for day trading. Plenty of day traders in that market, and plenty of liqudity. I've actually wrote an article on my blog about this very topic that i call the dream machine that most new traders seem to be getting sucked into

 

Emini S&P 500 Trading: The Dream Machine

 

Trading is what it is, and when you take it for what it is then life becomes a lot more easier. There's always this talk amongst new traders about the smart money, the dumb money, about having the edge etc... When I first start started out as a trader, at the time I was sat on the same row of the biggest trader in the office, who at the time was trading 6000 lots in the bund, schatz etc. Anyway on my first day he said something to me that has stuck with me thoughtout my career... he said... "don't get suckered in by all the rubbish people talk, it is what it is, and that's bullsh*t... once you realize that, you'll see the market for what it is"

 

Trading is a hard game, every trader knows that, but most people are making it a lot harder than what it is. This is mainly due to the ridiclous expectations they have of trading. For example, the markets have been quieter than normal recently, but there are traders out there who still trying to force the hand trying to trade opportunities that are not there because people come into this thinking they're gonna be making 10 trades every day just because they're attached to the title day trader. What people don't tell you is that 90% of this game is sitting about and waiting for the opps to come to you. When they do, they're clear a day light

[Gabe2004 10]

One of the reason they lose is, they failed to understand trading futures involves substantial risk and only risk capital should be used. All brokerages and few trading school websites have those risk disclaimer. But for some reason, most people FAILED or ignore the risk disclaimer.

 

Your logic seems flawed.

Are you saying that if one is aware of the risk associated with trading then they will not lose?

I am sure most people are aware of the risk. What kills them (their account rather) is lack of a plan, lack of training, lack of discipline and lack of capital.

 

Gabe

[emg 12]

Your logic seems flawed.

Are you saying that if one is aware of the risk associated with trading then they will not lose?

I am sure most people are aware of the risk. What kills them (their account rather) is lack of a plan, lack of training, lack of discipline and lack of capital.

 

Gabe

 

Thank you gabe, you answer my question. Lack of plan trading in unlimited risk futures market, lack of training trading in unlimited risk futures market, lack of discipline trading in unlimited risk futures market, and lack of capital (part of the disclaimer: only risk capital should be used) trading in unlimited risk futures market. I do not see where my logic is flawed

[mike21 10]

According to the Gov report, 97% of the people lose trading in the futures market.

 

 

I've heard 85% or 90% or even 95% of traders fail. But I was not aware of a government report saying 97%.

 

If you have a link to this report, please share.

 

~Mike

[Gabe2004 10]

Thank you gabe, you answer my question. Lack of plan trading in unlimited risk futures market, lack of training trading in unlimited risk futures market, lack of discipline trading in unlimited risk futures market, and lack of capital (part of the disclaimer: only risk capital should be used) trading in unlimited risk futures market. I do not see where my logic is flawed

 

UNLIMITED RISK ????

 

Why is it unlimited?

 

It is up to you the trader to limit your risk by using stops which - btw - should be part of your trading plan

 

You said that the reason people lose is because they don't understand that trading involve risk and this is where you logic seems flawed.

By what you say, if I tell you taht I understand that there is risk in trading I will be a successful trader, and I am saying that that is not the case.

Understanding the fact that there is risk involved in some endevour does not mean that people who take the risk will be immune from harm.

 

Think about a rock climber. I am sure he/she are aware of the risk involved yet they do it anyway. Hopefully after a lot of traing and wearing protective gear and using the proper equipmen.

 

If you see a person wanting to climb rocks without the above but he tells you that he understands the risk - will that recognition of risk avoid a catastrophy? I don't think so.

 

Same with trading if you take a person who is not prepared (mentaly, financially and otherwise0 for trading but he acknowledges that trading is risky - will that help him not to lose? I don't think so.

 

THe point I am trying to make is that recognition of risk is not the answer to successful trading.

 

Gabe

[ktartarotti 10]

Thanks for all the outputs so far!!

 

I did not mean to say that trading the e-minis are actually harder than any other type of day trading markets. I just have not met any professional day trader (by professional I mean someone that makes a living of day trading) that trade solely e-minis.

 

All prfessional traders I´ve met trade the e-minis with ETFs, other stocks, but never solely the e-minis.

 

My question stands, and my quest is to find those that made/make a living solely (or mainly) trading the e-minis for at least a year. Is there such a trader?? I certainly would like to know your experience.

[86834 10]

Thanks for all the outputs so far!!

 

I did not mean to say that trading the e-minis are actually harder than any other type of day trading markets. I just have not met any professional day trader (by professional I mean someone that makes a living of day trading) that trade solely e-minis.

 

All prfessional traders I´ve met trade the e-minis with ETFs, other stocks, but never solely the e-minis.

 

My question stands, and my quest is to find those that made/make a living solely (or mainly) trading the e-minis for at least a year. Is there such a trader?? I certainly would like to know your experience.

 

I've been a full time trader for 8 years, with the Emini SP being my bread and butter since the liquidity and spreads on Eurex went off a cliff. Ask away...

[sevensa 10]

Your logic seems flawed.

Are you saying that if one is aware of the risk associated with trading then they will not lose?

I am sure most people are aware of the risk. What kills them (their account rather) is lack of a plan, lack of training, lack of discipline and lack of capital.

 

Gabe

 

That's not the only logic that is flawed from his reasoning. If you only trade with risk capital, this means you have enough funds, or other income to live on besides the risk capital that you can afford to lose. This means you are not really trading for a living; you are only playing around, or supplementing or hoping to supplement, your income.

[sevensa 10]

Thanks for all the outputs so far!!

 

I did not mean to say that trading the e-minis are actually harder than any other type of day trading markets. I just have not met any professional day trader (by professional I mean someone that makes a living of day trading) that trade solely e-minis.

 

All prfessional traders I´ve met trade the e-minis with ETFs, other stocks, but never solely the e-minis.

 

My question stands, and my quest is to find those that made/make a living solely (or mainly) trading the e-minis for at least a year. Is there such a trader?? I certainly would like to know your experience.

 

I'm curious to understand what you expect to learn from the answers? If a couple of people say they are doing that, how is that going to help you? I'm sure there are plenty of people who are doing that with the e-minis. How do you expect knowing that someone else is doing that, is going to help you? And why do you think people doing it with other instruments is not going to help you?

[electroniclocal 10]

86834, the [problem for newbies is that they really don'y even know the questions, let alone the answers. Trading is one of the most complex processes yet is simple to execute. Therein lies the failure rate of traders.

[ktartarotti 10]

Sevensa,

I believe that the answers would be very informative if those that share give a little insight on their personal journey.

Also, information such as why they chose the e-minis over other markets, what is weekly, montly, yearly expected %ROI ( I know that this varies from each individual, but what % makes it worth your while?!).

Because the e-minis are highly leveraged and sometimes a "good" money management strategy suggests not risking more than 2% of your trading capital per trade and on the other side of the coin some people are trying to have a 4% ROI per year I ask the question if anyone solely trade the e-minis for a living or if there is a good money management advice that once a treshold is crossed (based on personal opinion) one should start diversifying into less leveraged markets?

Certainly there is a lot more, but if someone could elaborate on those questions I would start getting some answers I am looking for!

86834 - I´ve read some of your posts and your blog, certainly very good advices! I´ve read in your blog that you have not traded much while the market has been so quiet, you´ve not traded only the e-minis or nothing at all?

[sep34 10]

Ktartarotti,

 

Currently you have a big ad running that will attract all vendors to you.

In your OP you did ask them to leave you alone, but that wont stop them.

I can see that you have at least one vendor that has responded to you several times.

 

The best way to get the information your looking for is to use the search feature and do a lot of reading and then ask suddle question. you will then get a feel for the different personalities that post here and their motives. Some post here because they are lonely, some are wanabes, some need to vent, and some are here to learn and to share and finally there the few that truely serve other traders and share some very valuable trading knowledge. When your at that point then you will know who is giving you answers that will genuinely help you and who is trying to sell you a service.

 

One last thought... until you can convince your self, independent of others opinions, that trading profitably can be accomplished, you will allways be walking on very shakey ground with respect to trading. Specially in real trading situation where self reliance and confidence is key.

[86834 10]

Sevensa,

I believe that the answers would be very informative if those that share give a little insight on their personal journey.

Also, information such as why they chose the e-minis over other markets, what is weekly, montly, yearly expected %ROI ( I know that this varies from each individual, but what % makes it worth your while?!).

Because the e-minis are highly leveraged and sometimes a "good" money management strategy suggests not risking more than 2% of your trading capital per trade and on the other side of the coin some people are trying to have a 4% ROI per year I ask the question if anyone solely trade the e-minis for a living or if there is a good money management advice that once a treshold is crossed (based on personal opinion) one should start diversifying into less leveraged markets?

Certainly there is a lot more, but if someone could elaborate on those questions I would start getting some answers I am looking for!

86834 - I´ve read some of your posts and your blog, certainly very good advices! I´ve read in your blog that you have not traded much while the market has been so quiet, you´ve not traded only the e-minis or nothing at all?

 

I haven't done much on the emini's this year because of the trading enviornment. I think people forget that the markets have had their biggest crash in the history, and the market will put in some down time before it picks up again. Anyone trading through the dotcom crash should know what I mean.

 

There have been opportunities in ES if you're only trading small size, but I trade quite a lot of size and I need to iceburg my orders in, so for me personally, there have been better opps out there, rather than trading outrights in ES. The money I make from ES trades more than qualifies earning a living out of the emini's, but the emini's are not my sole market. I run my own fund and manage a lot of other peoples money, so sticking to just one product and style isn't the name of my game. So far this year, a lot of the stuff i've been doing have been various spreads like 10's under 2's flatteners as the yield curve has dropped, TuT's, Eurostoxx/Dax spreads, schatz, bobl, bund flies etc. Also been active in cable and the yen.

 

 

For most of you guys you shouldn't be risking more then 1% per trade, or per day when day trading. You're simply not experienced enough to handle more risk. Even at 2% you're gonna surprise yourself how much captial you chew through on a bad run, and you will have a bad run. Also you have to be realistic about how much you're going to make from the markets. Yes you get the odd person once every blue moon who turns a $5k account into $1,000,000, but you've got more chance of winning the lottery than being that guy. If you want to earn millions from trading, then you need to be trading millions. I earn multiple 7 figures in a year, but i'm trading multiple 7 figure accounts for clients. If you want to earn hundreds of thousands a year, then you need to be trading hundreds of thousands, on so on down the list we go. If anyone tells you otherwise then they're living in a fantasy land or they haven't been trading for very long.

 

This isn't going to be what most people want to hear, but if you're serious about trading full time for living, then the very least you need in trading captial is $100,000. Forget all that $500 margin rubbish because it's complete bollocks to sucker you into thinking you can make a fortune off a small amount. You can trade 10 contracts in ES per $100,000, then ontop of that, you need cash reserves in the bank for when you hit downdraw etc. Out of the profits you make each month, you're gonna only be paying yourself 50% and leaving the other half in the trading account for your trading captial to grow.

 

Lets say you turn out to be a good strong trader, and you can average 30pts a month over a year by day trading (a lot harder than what you think!), so without even taking into consideration commissions which are completely ridiculous for you retail guys, this is what you're gonna make.... and this is completely hypothetical and in a perfect world... which we don't live in..... oh and it doesn't take into consideration any over heads.

 

10 ES contracts = $500 per point.

30pt profit a month average = $15,000

50% wage to yourself to live on = $7500

 

Now lets include some basic costs.... and lets say you average 6 round trips a week at $4.80 a roundie working on a 4 week month to keep it simple....

 

30pt profit = $15,000

 

Cost of Round Trips -$1152

TT X trader - $1500

CQG - $600

News Feed - $300

Net Costs - $3,552

 

Net Profit - $11,448

What you pay youself.... $5724

 

So this is a very basic example, and doesn't take a lot of things into consideration, and it is making the assumption that you can consistently make 30pts a month, and we all know how assumptions are the mother of all screw ups. So on a $100,000 account you're walking out with $5724 a month as a wage that you're gonna live on. The other half is staying in your trading account to build up your trading captial.

 

I bet 99.9% of you don't have $100,000 trading captial, let alone savings ontop of that to last you a year. I'm not saying that to be a moron, but it's just the reality that you have to accept. I've been there, done it, got the t shirt. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just spinning their own ego off. I mentioned in my blog post, the expectations that 99.9% of retail traders have about trading are on the same level as people getting up one day and deciding they're gonna start an oil company out of their bedroom on $10,000 and they're gonna take on the likes of Shell, BP, Mobile etc

 

Now if you do have the captial to get involved with trading properly, then you need to find someone to train you properly. Going to webinars your broker sends you is pretty much searching through the 'never has been anything' box. You have to accept that retail brokers, and retail education on the whole is just a fools gold market and the only people making money in the retail world are the people selling the shovels.

 

If you haven't got that type of trading captial, then all this is going to be is a part time hobby that you'll be able to pay for a few holidays with if you get good.

 

These are your options....

 

1. You're suffeciently funded to give trading a go full time... You need to find an experience trader that will mentor you. I would only class someone as an experienced mentor if they've consistently earned over $300,000 a year for 3 years or more. Be realistic too, mentorship isn't going to be cheap, just like going to college to be a doctor or a lawyer isn't cheap. It's going take time for you to learn the business, and they're probably going to want a take of your profits. For example I take 20% of profits a month from someone I decide to mentor... What do you want... 100% of nothing or 80% of a few grand?

 

2. You haven't quite got $100k type money to trade with.... You can still get a mentor but obviously it's gonna hit your bottom line more. If you're a single young person, then it could work for you, otherwise you fall into catagory 3.

 

3. You not properly funded to trade full time..... Either save up more money, or this is just a part time gig for you. Give it a go and see what happens. Like I say, you might be able to pay for the odd dirty weekend away with the girlfriend/boyfriend. For you young ones, you need to be trying to get in at a firm. Unless you're a rich kid and you're parents are gonna back you a few hundred grand, you need to stay in school, work hard, and get good at writing C.V's and be thinking of a good speech for when asked 'why do you want to be a trader' If you get knocked back at interviews, just keep on applying. It shows persistence and dedication, and that's what we like to see in someone when we're hiring a grad.

 

 

It is what it is.

[Gabe2004 10]

You need to find an experience trader that will mentor you. I would only class someone as an experienced mentor if they've consistently earned over $300,000 a year for 3 years or more.

 

I wonder who met a mentor who was willing to provide reliable proof of their income......

 

Gabe

[Mustang- 10]

I wonder who met a mentor who was willing to provide reliable proof of their income......

 

Gabe

 

Very funny Gabe... and spot on.

[sep34 10]

I wonder who met a mentor who was willing to provide reliable proof of their income......

 

Gabe

 

Gabe... it's much easier to just Talk a big game.

Here is the real truth for anyone looking for genuine mentor. If they accept you they will let you visit them for as many consective days and watch them trade LIVE REAL MONEY and they will show you their past statements. They are very picky about who they take on. They ask a lot of questions prior to accepting someone. They dont advertise, word of mouth is all they need. They are so busy that you will never see them on forums looking for business here or any other forum. And they are primarily Traders and only take on a hand-full of clients per year. They are seeked out ...they dont seek clients.

[86834 10]

Gabe... it's much easier to just Talk a big game.

Here is the real truth for anyone looking for genuine mentor. If they accept you they will let you visit them for as many consective days and watch them trade LIVE REAL MONEY and they will show you their past statements. They are very picky about who they take on. They ask a lot of questions prior to accepting someone. They dont advertise, word of mouth is all they need. They are so busy that you will never see them on forums looking for business here or any other forum. And they are primarily Traders and only take on a hand-full of clients per year. They are seeked out ...they dont seek clients.

 

You hit the nail on the head there.

[Gabe2004 10]

You hit the nail on the head there.

 

So 86834, why are you here?

If you fall into the category of real traders that are NOT in these forums to solicit for clients you should not have provided a link to your site which in a way is a solicitaion for clients.

I don't have a problem with you doing what you do btw. I just wonder :helloooo:

 

Gabe

[ktartarotti 10]

All inputs so far are very informative; however I still wonder (and I don´t want to beat a dead horse) if there are those traders that make a living solely trading the e-minis.

Some "yes I do", "no I don´t" followed by some "Why", "How", "How long" would suffice.

I´ve found some similar questions on the Forex´s foruns I´ve searched, I just wonder if some similarities between the types of trades (highly leveraged) that occurs in these markets (Forex, e-minis futures, etc...) only allow the brokerage companies that offer them to to truly make a living on the long run?!?!

Also, it would be helpful if the information given isn´t so focused on why 99.9% of all the traders fail, because these type of info is all over the place, specially in sites that sell systems and mentorships.

Thank you for all inputs so far.

[86834 10]

Well it's a quiet week and i'm browsing a forum about trading.

 

The honest answer is that I believe that 99.999% of what is written on trading forums, retail broker sites and the internet in general is pure nonsense. I'm not really too interested in discussing trading methods with people online. When I load up this website, the first thing I see is 'The Zig Zag Indicator' which I find comical. I also find some of the posts of sites such as these funny reading.

 

99.9% of those that making posts on trading forums don't have a clue, then the 00.1% that can trade, well there's no point discussing trading methods with them. I make money, they make money, and any talk of which methods work is just the same as two artists arguing over how to draw an apple. If you're making money, you're making money, it doesn't really require discussion. When i'm in the pub with my friends that are traders, we're not talking about trading methods....

 

However, having said that, what I do like about these forums, and what I use my blog for is to interact with newer traders. Starring at the charts, and taking trades is just a job to me, the bit that I like to talk about is the wisdom and philosophy of trading. That's the interesting part of trading. Once you get good a trading and are earning money, like i say, it's just a job at the end of the day. The philosophy of the market and how it can make you wise way beyond your years is something that I like to share with people. One day when I bring myself to retire from what i love to do (mrs is always nagging me to retire) I want to write a book on trading philosophy, and for me, it intrigues to read what people have to say on forums like these. I work in the professional arena of trading, I know what that is like, and what goes through the minds of most people on the desk, but I don't know what goes through the minds of people like yourself, and it intriuges me how there's this whole other world of fools gold where the only people making money are the people selling the shovels. Personally I think it's wrong, and i find it intruiging to see how in the retail world, places like this for example, seem to fight amongst each other. It's a place where the true nature of man can be seen. The milk of human kindness slowly curdles and turns sour. I just find it fascinating how most of you don't realize that the markets are really just about understanding yourself more than anything.

 

Like I say, it's just fascinating to me

[86834 10]

I forgot to add to my last post... Yes I do offer mentorship, but no it has nothing to do why i'm posting in this thread. To nip the whole mentorship thing in the bud, somewhere like this really isn't a place for clients for me. No offence or anything, but as stated in one of my posts 99.9% of you will not be properly funded, and 99.9% of people on a website like this wouldn't be able afford my fee or 20% take of monthly profits. So rest assured, i'm not hear to promote mentorship lol

 

Like i say, it's the wisdom and philosophy side of things that I enjoy sharing about my path as a trader, not how I trade. Hopefully my writing on my blog will be something that will make you think, make you smile or crack a laugh to yourself after a bad day. I like to think that some of you would like my blog, but then again some of you won't, but that's the beauty if life isn't it?

 

Last post can be found here, and if you read it, you can see that it actually has nothing about tell you how to trade.

 

Emini S&P 500 Trading: Ahhh Memories

[Gabe2004 10]

Yes I do offer mentorship, but no it has nothing to do why i'm posting in this thread. To nip the whole mentorship thing in the bud, somewhere like this really isn't a place for clients for me. No offence or anything, but as stated in one of my posts 99.9% of you will not be properly funded, and 99.9% of people on a website like this wouldn't be able afford my fee or 20% take of monthly profits. So rest assured, i'm not hear to promote mentorship lol

 

I must admit that your sale tactics are more sofisticated than the average shil who pops into some trading sites. Nevertheless, if you were not after grabbing money, you could have eliminated that part (offer of mentorship) from your site and from posting that fact here and just keep the INFORMATIVE and FUNNY parts of your blog.

 

I am sure that most people on this site will see through you, thus I will not have to point out these things again.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Gabe