Know Thyself

[zdo 20]

“Know thyself”

 

For traders, what does that include?

What is the ‘state of the art’?

[JBWTrader 10]

A good question Zdo

 

State of Art is getting as many feedback loops as possible in your life. Outer objects acting as mirrors reflecting back at us who we really are is the only way to move forward....there are a few techniques to help with this

 

eg Analyse dreams, Analysis, Word association, honest friends, Performance appriasals at work , people who tell it like they see....eg spouse or girlfriend....conflict in our lives can also be a great vehicle to look within and question.....but the unconscious is really unconscious..it needs mirrors we can trust to reflect back our unconscious parts.

 

Trading is interesting in that one eventually finds a system with a true edge but can we trade it if it is a discretionary system ?...then good record keeping is neccessary to show the behaviours and skills we need to work on. Then if we still deny these aspects we start to have a real issue and thats when the self exploratory work can begin and is neccessary IMHO.

 

edge first

records/analysis second

Self third if neccessary

 

All the Best

John

[FXGirl 10]

"eg Analyse dreams, Analysis, Word association, honest friends, Performance appriasals at work , people who tell it like they see....eg spouse or girlfriend....conflict in our lives can also be a great vehicle to look within and question.....but the unconscious is really unconscious..it needs mirrors we can trust to reflect back our unconscious parts."

 

All good mirrors, JBW. Below (or beyond) Freud's scary concept of the unconscious is a place where the constraints, misunderstandings, and misconceptions of the personality cease to exist and the natural state of peace and joy emerges. Meditation is a wonderful gateway to this state, and this state is the ultimate "mirror".

 

As regards trading, the best advice is to speak your thoughts out loud when you are trading. What you hear is the raw data of your perspective and emotional state. An interesting experiment is to record a trading session when you do this (talk out loud) and listen to it later when you aren't looking at the charts. Now, that can be scary!

Edited February 19, 2010 by FXGirl

[BlowFish 10]

I was tempted to start a thread on Sekoytas quote "Every one gets what the want from the market". It is hard to know what you want from the market if you do not know yourself. The fact that many people do not make a profit would imply they are not really profit motivated? (if you buy into Ed's idea). I know with myself it was always a fight with the ego and every now and then still is. One of the good things that came from trading was a better awareness of myself, having said that too much navel gazing without specific purpose might well be counter productive. There is a great post by Anna-Maria in the long dormant "busy day tomorrow" thread that puts the counter point of view which is "just man up and do it". It's rather a long thread or I'd post the link.

[BlowFish 10]

Clearly going senile it was actually posted here http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f37/trading-just-another-road-enlightenment-question-3712.html#post33723 in a thread that talks of similar things Actually the whole thread is good.

[JBWTrader 10]

Some very good points and tips FXGirl and as always Blowfish.

 

 

Just to add discussion also latest developments that are more tools of experts (like FXGirl) are

 

- imaginary fields seen/felt and described between patient and therapist

- fusional complex and the feeling state cycle of order to chaos and order again

- Paranoid Schizoid function in Child development

 

I do like the calling out technique FXGirl...very good I will try this out. Thanks for that.

 

Yeah Blowfish Ed's quote is a precursor to making one think more what does my conscious mind want versus the part that has really the most force/power ie the unconscious mind really want....going into that more ie the unconscious is often a lifetime journey and it is the hardest one of all...

 

Best

John

Edited February 19, 2010 by JBWTrader
had to add some feeling to it !!

[FXGirl 10]

Dear BlowFish: Thanks for calling our attention to Anna-Maria's post - very interesting, and obviously it works well for her. We probably all have our own metaphor for trading the market. For me, it's surfing.

 

I spent hours in the waters off the southern California coast as teenager. When there is clear intent in the market (you see the wave coming), you time your entry, turn the board around and wait until you feel it (meets my trade criteria) - the water where you are sitting on your board begins to suck back into the the face of the oncoming wave (pullback). Then when you feel the power of the wave under you, you dig in and paddle (entry). The wave pulls you up into it and you take the ride. As the power of the wave ebbs, you kick out (take profit), and paddle back out for the next wave (next trade set up).

 

Yes, I know that there are guys out there trying to take my money, but I certainly am not in the market "... to bury the stiff who gets the wrong side of my next long-short pitch." No battle for me, just harmony with what is.

[james_gsx 16]

I was tempted to start a thread on Sekoytas quote "Every one gets what the want from the market". It is hard to know what you want from the market if you do not know yourself. The fact that many people do not make a profit would imply they are not really profit motivated? (if you buy into Ed's idea). I know with myself it was always a fight with the ego and every now and then still is. One of the good things that came from trading was a better awareness of myself, having said that too much navel gazing without specific purpose might well be counter productive. There is a great post by Anna-Maria in the long dormant "busy day tomorrow" thread that puts the counter point of view which is "just man up and do it". It's rather a long thread or I'd post the link.

 

Disclaimer: This is purely for sake of conversation, one can simply view my posts and see a decent amount of trading psychology posts.

 

But do you think this whole notion of understanding yourself, really applies to trading? Or is it simply coming to terms with why you gamble, taking risk, etc? More importantly, discretionary trading?

 

Let's say you have $10,000 that you worked hard to save up. It isn't natural to take the risk of gambling that away - so you need to come to terms with yourself, aka, get to know yourself. Specifically if you're using a discretionary strategy, you literally have to overcome the obstacle of, "Let me risk this perfectly good money in hopes that I make more."

 

But what if that's really just all in our head? What if we've heard so much of this "traders psychology" jargon and we force ourselves to pay attention to it - thus causing more problems. Could it really be as simple as walking up to it and saying, "I am here to make money, I will find my profitable niche and adapt when necessary." I understand some new research points to taking financial risk may be processed in the amygdala of the brain - in which case, those people simply shouldn't trade.

 

But also, if you really have an issue with psychology and trading, why do you even trade looking at charts? Something that can easily be interpreted in a thousand ways - obviously there's no correct way or we wouldn't be able to fill a library on all the techniques. Would it make more sense for the new trader to simply find an edge from data mining, and write a program to exploit it? Theres really no emotion there.

 

Those are just some brief thoughts, I haven't spent much time dwelling on any of them. Feel free to agree or disagree.

[DugDug 10]

But what if that's really just all in our head? What if we've heard so much of this "traders psychology" jargon and we force ourselves to pay attention to it - thus causing more problems. Could it really be as simple as walking up to it and saying, "I am here to make money, I will find my profitable niche and adapt when necessary."

 

I am coming to the conclusion that as in trading, the simple things work best, dont reinvent the wheel and if it aint broke dont fix it. Initially there is no substitute for hard work, planning, trading time, and understanding and analysis of the past trades in order to improve them, until it becomes that unconscious competence (I think that is what is its referred to). Find a setup, trading style that works for you - dont try and fit a square peg into a round hole, and most of all be determined/persistent and really commit to making it work - learn, practice, get a mentor, get help (dont waste money on quick fix seminars).

 

Finally give yourself a set date to take time off, analyse and realise that sometimes certain things may or may not be suited to you.

If you find that trading does work for you and you are successful continue - otherwise stop and do something else.

 

I think that many people have to realise that while trading may sound glamourous, exciting etc; etc; the reality is different and that it just does not suit everybody, most people are not prepared to really change themselves (if this is what is required) and its as simple as that.

While I know I can generally do anything I set my mind to - I might not be the best at it - there are certain things I just dont wish to do. eg; dressmaking, missionary work, political life, lawyer.

 

By looking for reasons of why we are doing, or not doing things, sometimes we miss the important question of why we are doing the actual process in the first place. I dont trade to make myself a better man - I trade to make money, so I can take holidays, buy art, feed myself etc.

[james_gsx 16]

Well I have noticed trading brings in many crowds. People who want to make a quick buck to one up their neighbor - they often lose. But they are also the ones who pay for the seminars, take hot stock tips, etc. Then there are those who are naturally attracted to risk, if intelligent, they often succeed. They come to make money, obviously, but the initial attraction is risk.

 

I've also learned that understanding markets really is about understanding what people are doing. I feel technical analysis is really analyzing the psychology of other people. The other portion, is mathematic. While I'm not far enough in my study of math, I do feel one of the biggest components to risk management and trading is the human psychological element - and I'm not sure there is a formula for that yet. Someone with a stronger mathematical background feel free to chime in. I am pursuing a degree in applied mathematics, so perhaps one day I will be able to figure it out - but I'm sure it's much more complex then I think.

 

Moral of the story, stop worrying about yourself. Figure out what other people are doing, make a strategy, stick to it. You find yourself making dumb moves? Ask yourself, do you want to keep losing money? If no, then stop making stupid mistakes repeatedly. Trust me, I speak from experience - as do many. Of course, it's not really that black and white, but we can try can't we?

 

After several years of trading I have learned more about myself then I would have otherwise, but that was all in the first year or so when I thought it mattered. Since then, I've pondered more about the chaos of trading crowds and asked myself why people act in certain ways - this has led to a more clear thinking of markets, for me personally. Also, the more I learn about math and see how I can apply it to trading, the more it all makes sense. Essentially eliminating the "self psychology" piece entirely (I still get emotional obviously, but I don't question why - rather I ask if the crowd is doing the same thing).

 

Apologies in advance if this derails the thread, if so, mods feel free to move this to a new thread.

Edited February 20, 2010 by james_gsx

[DugDug 10]

James- "Moral of the story, stop worrying about yourself. Figure out what other people are doing, make a strategy, stick to it."

 

if you cant figure out why you are doing things, how in the hell are you going to figure out why the rest of the world are doing things.

(I have enough trouble working out my girlfriend, so I now just say "yes dear", go with the flow and do what I want anyway..... it works without much analysis of what she wants)

[BlowFish 10]

Dear BlowFish: Thanks for calling our attention to Anna-Maria's post - very interesting, and obviously it works well for her. We probably all have our own metaphor for trading the market. For me, it's surfing.

 

.

 

I am not a surfer but really like that metaphor. One of my favourite little books is called channel surfing (about channels needless to say) the author uses the metaphor liberally.

 

I am quite wary of 'trading as war', or 'trading as combat' metaphors. That's just not me and whilst I enjoy a good argument (err I mean debate) I find 'real' conflict distressing, especially violent conflict.

 

That was (as you might guess by now) not my main reason for linking the post. What I liked was the 'no nonsense' attitude to trading. Having read AM's posts in the thread I first mentioned (busy day tomorrow) I get the impression that this was deliberately pitched to be a 'harsh wake up call'' kind of post. I dunno. It is an interesting view in a thread that is quite similar to this one and does present the other side of the coin.

 

Rather than know yourself perhaps know why you are trading, know what you want from the market, as Sekoyta intimates. I guess it is money that originally attracts people to the markets but once they are there they play out all sorts of other dramas. Is it even money that people really want (which is just bits in a bank) or the things that go with it? A sense of self worth, a job done well, respect of your peers, dare I say power?

 

I guess you only need to know the bits of yourself that motivate and effect your interaction with the markets?

 

I guess knowing your strengths and weaknesses is a plus but that is helpful for most endeavours isn't it?

[james_gsx 16]

James- "Moral of the story, stop worrying about yourself. Figure out what other people are doing, make a strategy, stick to it."

 

if you cant figure out why you are doing things, how in the hell are you going to figure out why the rest of the world are doing things.

(I have enough trouble working out my girlfriend, so I now just say "yes dear", go with the flow and do what I want anyway..... it works without much analysis of what she wants)

 

Well like blowflish said, you should know your strengths, weaknesses - what motivates you to trade, etc.

 

I sometimes feel that maybe people spend too much time on this idea that you need to fully understand yourself to trade. That might be if your practice is entirely discretionary, but I also feel like you may be missing the big picture in the process.

[FXGirl 10]

Dear James: I wanted to comment on several of your posts. Your statements are in quotes.

 

“I understand some new research points to taking financial risk may be processed in the amygdala of the brain - in which case, those people simply shouldn't trade.” Which people are those, James? We all have amygdalas and if it is a threat, it goes through the amygdala. It’s what happens after the frontal lobes get a hold of the information that determines whether the subsequent behavior works for us or against us.

 

“What if we've heard so much of this "traders psychology" jargon and we force ourselves to pay attention to it - thus causing more problems.” I think that there is plenty of evidence that emotions drive behavior in trading with moving stops, adding to a losing trade and getting out too early as only a few examples. These behaviors aren’t a result of “traders psychology jargon”; they are the result of not having a strategy that adequately handles the emotional aspects of trading.

 

“You find yourself making dumb moves? Ask yourself, do you want to keep losing money? If no, then stop making stupid mistakes repeatedly. Trust me, I speak from experience - as do many. Of course, it's not really that black and white, but we can try can't we?” Ah, yes, if it were only black and white. Unfortunately, many people can’t just command themselves to ‘stop making stupid mistakes’ and have that work for them. If they could, we’d have a much better world…and certainly no need for a Trading Psychology Forum.

 

Trading psychology is ultimately about learning to manage the inevitable emotions generated by trading in an ambiguous and risk-filled environment in a way that supports your trading goals. If you have a trading plan that works, and you are able to follow that plan, then you have developed a successful psychological strategy. However, if you are moving your stops, getting out too soon, or hesitating to take a trade that meets your criteria, then your psychology strategy needs some work.

[james_gsx 16]

“I understand some new research points to taking financial risk may be processed in the amygdala of the brain - in which case, those people simply shouldn't trade.” Which people are those, James? We all have amygdalas and if it is a threat, it goes through the amygdala. It’s what happens after the frontal lobes get a hold of the information that determines whether the subsequent behavior works for us or against us.

 

Brain location for fear of losing money pinpointed -- the amygdala

 

Assuming of course, that you have had some traumatic experience losing money and now this can be akin to something like death, then the whole approach of a trading coach, journal, etc, won't work the vast majority of the time.

 

The point I was trying to get across, and it was poorly worded, was that if you are in fact one of those people, why waste the money trying to trade a discretionary strategy profitably when the odds are stacked incredibly against you? I would admire you for it, but I wouldn't understand the point of throwing that money down the drain.

 

(not you in particular, you is meant as the subject in this case who could be anyone dealing with this problem.)

 

“What if we've heard so much of this "traders psychology" jargon and we force ourselves to pay attention to it - thus causing more problems.” I think that there is plenty of evidence that emotions drive behavior in trading with moving stops, adding to a losing trade and getting out too early as only a few examples. These behaviors aren’t a result of “traders psychology jargon”; they are the result of not having a strategy that adequately handles the emotional aspects of trading.

 

“You find yourself making dumb moves? Ask yourself, do you want to keep losing money? If no, then stop making stupid mistakes repeatedly. Trust me, I speak from experience - as do many. Of course, it's not really that black and white, but we can try can't we?” Ah, yes, if it were only black and white. Unfortunately, many people can’t just command themselves to ‘stop making stupid mistakes’ and have that work for them. If they could, we’d have a much better world…and certainly no need for a Trading Psychology Forum.

 

Trading psychology is ultimately about learning to manage the inevitable emotions generated by trading in an ambiguous and risk-filled environment in a way that supports your trading goals. If you have a trading plan that works, and you are able to follow that plan, then you have developed a successful psychological strategy. However, if you are moving your stops, getting out too soon, or hesitating to take a trade that meets your criteria, then your psychology strategy needs some work.

 

 

I believe that is where we disagree. Most traders aren't profitable, and it's not because they can't read charts and get a feel for the market, or because they move stops or have bad entries, and it's not because of their personal emotions that occur during trading. In my opinion.... it's because they ignore how complicated the market really is. They don't really take the time to realize the forces around them and how that's impacting the markets.

 

When I said people focus too much on the "psychological jargon" that doesn't mean that we should not know ourselves. We should do that as a daily practice, not because we trade. Absolutely you should know when you're getting disgruntled and should walk away - you'd do the same thing at a poker table. But you wouldn't sit at a poker table dissecting yourself, you'd be looking for profitable niches at the table to exploit then adapting as participants come and go.

 

There are some exceptional discretionary traders, and some of them post on this forum. I applaud everything they do, and I enjoy reading what they have to say. But for everyone else, they need to realize the huge disadvantage they have. You will be very hard pressed to find any institutions (with legit big money, not prop shops) who have traders making any discretionary trades - especially since everything can be done in the blink of an eye with computers. They have algorithms, and understand the silly mistakes many retail traders make, and exploit those opportunities before you even know what happen - then just toss it off as another stop loss.

 

That doesn't mean you shouldn't trade, it just means you need to understand fully what's going on. Not just acknowledge it, but really understand it. All the journals and everything else are useless if you don't know why your trading plan is designed to fail from the beginning. If you're a retail trader and you truly believe the chance of losing every penny, whether at once or consistently over a long period of time because of "risk management" (and not have any real clue what risk is) and "understanding personal psychology", then you should really ask if you know what you're doing.

 

I said earlier that TA is really like psychology of the entire market, and I still stand by that. You should know yourself, but not because of your trading plan, just because we should all do that regardless of profession. In order to win in this business you must take risk, and that risk is very real. You could fail, and you have to accept that. In my opinion, focusing too much on how you react in various situations instead of looking at the market and being open is a very big risk.

 

I say all of this because I see too many newbie traders (including myself) come into this forum excited to learn. They are quickly directed to the whole psychology aspect, then they read Trading in the Zone, etc, and think trading is some big zen like focus on personal emotions game. It's not that at all, and they all leave 6 months later never to be heard of again. They can't figure out why they lose so much money, after 20 hour days studying VSA, Candles, Wyckoff, etc. Then they just think it's because they can't control their emotions or they're undisciplined. The problem was because they never really took the time to understand how the markets work - and they never took full appreciation of the risk. They had "risk management" but never really accepted it.

Edited February 21, 2010 by james_gsx
Typo

[DugDug 10]

James - "Then they just think it's because they can't control their emotions or they're undisciplined. The problem was because they never really took the time to understand how the markets work - and they never took full appreciation of the risk. They had "risk management" but never really accepted it."

 

Not to get into an argument James but I think you are actually agreeing to disagree with yourself if that makes sense..

 

To trade and to understand the markets does take discipline and emotional control. Many rush in, develop bad habits then wonder how to fix it and look for quick fixes. Many never develop a truly comprehensive trading plan from the get go, instead its done on the run.

 

You are 100% correct, but I think the point when most older traders direct new people to the psyc and discipline part of the process it is to tell people that if you dont get this part of it and dont understand that self control and the goals and reasons for why they are trading is an integral part of the initial understanding of risk management and also the ongoing risk management and self control that is required (hence journals, reviews etc; to ensure you continue to improve or dont drift into bad habits), then you will make things harder for yourself. Its all part of the big picture. Both understanding yourself, understanding how the market works, understanding the mechanics of the trading platform, understanding the strategy you adopt. This is why trading is often referred to as a business.... and not a hobby (except for some).

I know one of the biggest risks to my business is me - not just the market.

[zdo 20]

Barely on topic…re state of the "art"

'cross wiring...'

‘staggering diversity…”

‘difference between interest and passion…’

“explaining an enigma with a metaphor...”

 

Biology, Psychology, Art – V. S. Ramachandran – " Neurology & Art "

 

..."neurons that fire together, stay together.", etc

making a case for vsa-like conspiracies in what is produced for traders to see?

 

I appreciate all the posts. It was not intentionally a "drive by OP". Will make some time to respond and hopefully contribute…

[james_gsx 16]

Not to get into an argument James but I think you are actually agreeing to disagree with yourself if that makes sense..

 

 

Absolutely

 

I'm not here to say traders psychology is bad, I'm playing devils advocate to the idea - mainly because I see it get abused too often.

[JBWTrader 10]

Hey James

 

In your Math degree dont forget to do a lot of Stats mate...!! I wish I had done a lot more of that many years ago ...instead of the old pure and applied.

 

 

 

Best

John

[zdo 20]

Many make trading just a simple ‘decision’ process. “There are just four kinds of bets. There are good bets, bad bets, bets that you win, and bets that you lose. Winning a bad bet can be the most dangerous outcome of all, because a success of that kind can encourage you to take more bad bets in the future. You can also lose a good bet, but if you keep placing good bets, over time, the law of averages will be working for you.” Larry Hite, a successful trend trader. As James has been banging at – how much do we really need to fathom the depths of our souls to do that? One short answer is – some of us more than others. Another short answer – it’s not how good you are but how good you want to be. “First things first” Another short answer – a trader who know’s himself at the beginning will be able to sort through the “trading education” material much more efficiently and quickly find edges that match his or her nature…

 

Two specific questions triggered me to broaden the questioning out to the old general saw ‘know thyself’ stuff and start the thread. In my own processes, I noticed varying awareness of when I was susceptible to making trading mistakes / poor decisions and was asking the horrible question of ‘why?’ Then, in another trader who I mentor, I observed a cyclic variability in his subjective awareness of incentives which really had impact on his consistency and (maybe falsely) concluded that sustaining a consistently sufficient level of in the moment awareness of incentives is more important than what the actual incentives are or even being aware of the particulars of one’s incentives. Anyways, those questions reminded me again of the whole ‘know thyself’ area…

 

So moving the questioning a little bit - What is the best of ‘know thyself’?

 

 

…a few responses to some of your posts

 

- imaginary fields seen/felt and described between patient and therapist

- fusional complex and the feeling state cycle of order to chaos and order again

- Paranoid Schizoid function in Child development

Could you expand on these a little bit? Thanks.

 

Rather than know yourself perhaps know why you are trading, know what you want from the market, as Sekoyta intimates. I guess it is money that originally attracts people to the markets but once they are there they play out all sorts of other dramas. Is it even money that people really want (which is just bits in a bank) or the things that go with it? A sense of self worth, a job done well, respect of your peers, dare I say power?

First, I would modify "Every one gets what the want from the market". to "Every one gets what they intend from the market". My experience with mentoring described above convinced me that for many, it’s not the broad incentives that are at issue. Rather, it’s the subtleties and vagaries of keeping them in awareness during one’s ‘trading session’…

 

I guess you only need to know the bits of yourself that motivate and effect your interaction with the markets?

see first things first comments above and below. This “only need to know the bits” sort of goes to an approach of doing your very best with what is conscious and assuming the unconscious will take care of itself ?

 

re:

edge first

records/analysis second

Self third if necessary

 

That makes workable sense and 700 gurus can’t be wrong! But, for me, that order proved to be sub optimal. After years of faithfully doing just that, something a Jungian therapist turned trader once said triggered me to take a much more deliberative and balanced approach. I learned to build a practice of immediately following self work with edge work and of immediately following edge work with self work…building a habit of immediately following progress in either ‘side’ with serious, value finding (not problem solving) questions about the most recent progression’s implications to the other side. Because often there is no immediate apparent connection with the other, (ie for me, JBWt’s “mirrors” are more often than not, difficult to attenuate to), this kind of work is more arduous - but it brings geometric returns. Your 'system' is found within you as much as it is found objectively.

 

 

re metaphors in general, and

I am quite wary of 'trading as war', or 'trading as combat' metaphors. That's just not me and whilst I enjoy a good argument (err I mean debate) I find 'real' conflict distressing, especially violent conflict.

I’ve grown quite wary of all the trading metaphors I ever had. For the last 10 years or so, my practice is to kill all my trading metaphors when they occur to me. I rarely encourage others to do the same and paradoxically, the practice has actually made me more ‘compassionate’ about other’s trading metaphors…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Other areas to consider -

Personal genetics. Not many ‘subjective’ ways to know thyself on this one except by tendencies. I theorize that we may have several distinct genetically ‘determined’ variances in amygdale reactivity and influence. If you watched the Neurology and Art video, subtle cross wiring in neighborhoods of the brain could result in patterns in one trader that another trader simply has no chance of ever relating to or understanding. I suspect there are several, if not many, other distinct genetic typings for perception idiosyncrasies, managing uncertainty, even possibly whether we are with trend or contrary, etc. But testing for these markers not so far fetched anymore.

 

Biofeedback - realtime HEG, GSR, HRV – also not so far fetched anymore

 

Enculturation. Enculturation is a fairly fat term for what goes on in this area. The simple term ‘Learning’ could be used but I prefer enculturation because it alludes more to the slippage from flow a child surrenders to - to join the culture. fxGirl mentioned meditation. From the ‘east’, Lao Tzu councils us to unlearn all the reactive patterns we learned through the years and relearn through observation. This way we understand why it is best to do a certain thing based on certain conditions. ..."neurons that fire together, stay together." so much of what we do in meditation, mindfulness, qi gong, etc is deconstructing previously wired sympathetic responses and ‘wiring’ / grooving new parasympathetic pathways...once conditioned responses weaken we can truly interact with the actual environment …”If we react the same way to similar conditions we actually are establishing something close to an instinct. And I think that this is not good… ” some taoist bum. I am opening a sibling thread - similar title...

 

All the best and again thanks for all the posts.

Edited February 23, 2010 by zdo
add more

[zdo 20]

“Victory Destroys Knowledge” Dan John.

[Rande Howell 10]

Due to lack of self knowledge, most traders actually lose before they make the trade. Why? Because they trade from fear (or self-doubt, grandiosity, or impulsivity -- even confusion). Because our brain is so organized around the avoidance of fear (which easily overwhelms our thinging, we rarely confront our fears head on and learn from them. And, for most, this pattern of avoidance (though a highly ineffective adaptation) can be maintained without too much challenge. Trading cuts through the elaborately constructed alibis of avoidance like a knife. In trading there is no wiggle room. The trader either wins or loses, whereas in other endeavors there is greater gray area for "fish stories" -- self deception. The connection between methodology and mind set creates performance. Any state of mind outside of a calm, impartial sense of authority is a poor psychological set up for trading. What I like about trading is that it forces you to "know thyself" or you will not be a profitable trader. It's a great personal development path.

Rande Howell

[DugDug 10]

rather than trading forcing you to "know yourself" I find that it forces you to be more "truthful/honest to yourself"

I consider these completely separate.

[Rande Howell 10]

I can understand that. I know very few people who willingly will practice self honesty with themselves. Most are initially forced to acknowledge that they are going to have to examine themselves. Simply would have avoided it if it were possible. When you take on an attitude of curiosity then self inquiry becomes a great way of reorganizing the self into higher functioning. From my experience with working with people, a train wreck or two is required to wake up to the need for self honesty. Maybe that's why only 5% of traders actually make money trading. They've stopped hiding from themselves and are genuinely curious about the possibility of who they can become.

Rande

[JBWTrader 10]

Yes I agree with you totally. Pain is a great motivator ! in fact it is the best motivator for change. Often we want to get rid of the pain so badly we will do all the tricks the body/mind can offer eg splitting, dissociation, entering chaos and staying there for extended periods, going up into the head and thinking in order to avoid the chaos, projection identification, ie all unconscious processes..... the key is to work through the defenses until finally and after in most cases many years of work a new self structure can emerge. The trick with emotional or subtle body pain is to sink into it without judgement...one needs another to help with this..it cant be done alone..

 

Zdo in terms of elaboration of one of the "new psychological" trends I listed I will take the eg of the fusional complex. Have you ever felt or seen yourself or at least a part of yourself outside of yourself latched onto something ? eg could be an object like trading or a spouse...just like tentacles that reach out and latch on? Well if you can or have experienced this you can essentially lose yourself and take on qualities of the other while losing your own in the meantime...it all becomes mixed up...To the point where the self needs to protect onself from such dissolving and needs to seperate to become whole again ...how we do that is usually with an angry reaction to gain the distance required to regain self. For those that are more conscious of this process they can start to see a continous backward and forward movement with mind and or body....between an outer object and ourselves. How would this relate to trading...? well we can become pretty absorbed with it to the point of obsession and cant imagine doing anything else...I would say at this stage we are fused with it...if seperating from it becomes very difficult then you can bet you are in a codependant or fused state you and the object have become one or blurred. Ever noticed when someone is having a bad run...? advice given is often to say hey take a break...seperating from it aint as easy as just saying this is it ? as you know well through your coaching egs or from your own experience and what you have heard from others...Hence when someone can seperate from what they are identifying with they can then see the object more objectively and when we can do this we usually trade better.

 

Hope this helps

 

Best

John

 

 

 

I can understand that. I know very few people who willingly will practice self honesty with themselves. Most are initially forced to acknowledge that they are going to have to examine themselves. Simply would have avoided it if it were possible. When you take on an attitude of curiosity then self inquiry becomes a great way of reorganizing the self into higher functioning. From my experience with working with people, a train wreck or two is required to wake up to the need for self honesty. Maybe that's why only 5% of traders actually make money trading. They've stopped hiding from themselves and are genuinely curious about the possibility of who they can become.

Rande