Range Bar Errors in OEC?

[macdfx 10]

I won’t t use the demo until the right version of range bar is reinstated, that's for sure. Otherwise I have good relation with OEC and I’m satisfied by their service , it is just this time I can’t understand what is all about, may be a new guru is going to propose the Holy Grail in a private chat room or blog using this new so called momentum range. The fact is I can find on the web a momentum range bar with the conventional definition, so the name is factious, as well as the method used to impose the new version. Hopefully all is going to get back the way it was, which is not fixing the problem reported in the first place, so back to square one.:crap:

 

Yes, the reason there is a renewed interest in Range (and Momentum) bars is precisely because a guru is hawking them thru TTM, of all folks.

 

Markus of Rockwell Trading is hyping them these days, offering a Tradestation workspace and trading setup with Momentum (not range bars, as it turns out) for a few hundred bucks from the Trade the Markets guys, while the same setup of his is available for free (for now) thru Sierra Charts (using actual range bars instead).

 

Go figure. Anyway, you say you are pleased with OEC. If you have a funded trading account thru them, why not just use the real data to power another charting solution instead?

[Trendup_ 10]

There is hope even for a little bear.

 

The Bear - Film by Jean-Jacques Annaud

[brownsfan019 17]

OEC is not implementing these purely b/c of some system seller. Now if many OEC customers requested them b/c of this guy (I had no idea who he was) then OEC is doing what the customers asked for. And that's what I was told - OEC customers asked for momentum bars and they responded. I do not know the underlying reason for the request.

[macdfx 10]

There is hope even for a little bear.

 

The Bear - Film by Jean-Jacques Annaud

 

I guess any edge will do...

[daedalus 10]

Just downloaded 3.5.0.9 Demo and look at what I found...

 

 

Works perfectly!!!

 

They also fixed the additional fractional bug in this build too! Now if only it would allow me to import layouts it would be perfect!

[brownsfan019 17]

Sim has been updated as of the close of business Friday (4-23-10).

 

If all goes as planned, PROD will be updated next Friday (4-30-10).

 

Just took a little patience, but we are getting there.

[Trendup_ 10]

Just downloaded 3.5.0.9 Demo and look at what I found...

Works perfectly!!!

They also fixed the additional fractional bug in this build too! Now if only it would allow me to import layouts it would be perfect!

 

Did you notice that the menu is mixed up, range is linked to momentum and vice versa?

Please tell us what improvement you found on the range bar.

[daedalus 10]

^^^ Yea you're right. Yesterday I swear it was working as it should, but the momentum bars get range bars on the chart, and the range bars get momentum bars.

 

Close but no cigar! lol.

[daedalus 10]

Now momentum bars died... momentum and range bars pull up identically.

 

OEC you're killing me!

[brownsfan019 17]

I think I might know what's going on here...

 

The most important thing here is that the 'old' way of how OEC displayed 'range' charts and calling them 'range' charts may not have been accurate. In actuality, OEC's 'range' charts were momentum charts, even though they were called range as there was no momentum setting available at the time.

 

So if we just throw out all old ways of viewing the charts and how OEC referred to them, we see that the new software resembles what ensign for example uses:

 

http://ensign.editme.com/rangebars

 

Momentum Bars are basically constant range bars. The bars look like standard chart bars with an open, high, low, close and volume. The high-low range of each bar is constant. A new bar does not start until a price tick is received that would exceed the fixed range of the current bar. Momentum Bar charts have the following characteristics:

 

* Each bar is the same height because the range is constant.

* The close of a bar is always at the high or low of the bar.

* The open of a bar is always one tick below or above the close of the preceding bar.

* The time period covered by each bar varies.

* All gaps are filled with inserted 'phantom' bars.

Now, those using OEC would have easily called those range bars based on what we are used to. As I said previously, OEC is conforming their version of range and momentum to what is more standard.

 

So IMO based on what I've read here tonight, I think that the momentum bars are what we would normally call range on the old version of OEC and that range bars are what we thought momentum would like look.

 

:doh:

 

I know... a little confusing. So here's the summary:

 

1) Throw out all previous interpretations you used on your OEC charts for range and/or momentum charts.

 

2) Momentum charts characteristics are listed above. If that's what you are looking for, use momentum. If you want the 'old' range charts, you will now use the 'new' momentum charts.

 

This is of course assuming that I understand the implementation correctly. I will see if I can get OEC to confirm this or provide further clarification.

Edited April 26, 2010 by brownsfan019

[daedalus 10]

Agreed BF - but something has changed...

 

This is a trade I took on Friday using the Range bars (that were really momentum bars)...

 

 

and here is that same price action tonight using the "ranger bar":

 

and here is it on the "momentum bar":

 

Neither of the options match the true momentum bars we've been seeing for the past few weeks, and both options look almost identical to the true "range bars".

[macdfx 10]

Ensign Software - Charts: Range Bars

 

 

* All gaps are filled with inserted 'phantom' bars.

 

 

 

 

Has anyone observed this with any of the range/momentum bars in OEC?

[daedalus 10]

Has anyone observed this with any of the range/momentum bars in OEC?

 

Nope. There are still gaps in the OEC versions (and frankly I prefer it this way).

 

And also, as of this morning the momentum bars are back (by selecting the range bar chart of course!)

[brownsfan019 17]

Nope. There are still gaps in the OEC versions (and frankly I prefer it this way).

 

And also, as of this morning the momentum bars are back (by selecting the range bar chart of course!)

 

Perhaps the issue was Sunday evening doldrums.

 

Charts look fine here.

 

On PROD - still use RANGE

One SIM - use MOMENTUM if you want the previous version of range.

 

Also, OEC has confirmed that my post here was correct.

[no_sandbags 10]

 

Also, OEC has confirmed that my post here was correct.

 

as a newcomer, i'd like to thank you for the task you've undertaken, much appreciated

 

i've followed the ES and ZB for the last month or so (settings from 4 to 8 ticks) and have not seen any of the described problems on those markets (live platform). i have seen the variable bars on the 6E

 

i talked with Chris @ OEC this afternoon and he sent me the following:

 

Momentum Bar Chart

 

Momentum bars are charted as standard vertical bars with opens, highs lows and closes, yet each bar has a specified price range, rather than being charted in units of time or ticks. With a focus on price movement, long periods of consolidation may be condensed into just a few bars, removing excess noise in the market and highlighting "real" price movements. So it is possible that an entire month of daily bars could fit into a single Momentum Bar, and the next month would have 30 Momentum Bars.

 

Momentum Bars are built by the underlying closing data that shows the directional trends as per the range amount. Momentum Bar charts are time independent so that time axis increments will not be fixed. The size of the bars will always be the range size set by you and will never be anything smaller or larger unless it is the current bar that is building.

 

Momentum Bars look like standard bars, but are different in four ways:

 

1. Momentum Bars are all equal in height, based on the Range specified by the user.

 

2. The open of each Momentum Bar is always one price tick above or below the close

of the previous Momentum Bar; since a new bar cannot be started until the specified

Range is exceeded. This is the primary difference between Momentum Bar and

Range Bar charts.

 

3. Momentum Bar closes are always at the top or bottom of the bar.

 

4. Momentum Bars charts have no gaps.

 

 

How a Momentum Bar is Built:

 

Since Momentum Bars are driven by price movement, a new Momentum Bar is only created once the specified Range has been exceeded. For example, if the specified Range amount is $10, it means that each Momentum Bar will have a range (High to Low) of $10. It is thus conceivable that a single Momentum Bar could represent several days if the movement throughout those days was only within a $10 price range. Once a Momentum Bar is closed-out, the open of the next Momentum Bar will always be one tick above or below the close of the prior Momentum Bar.

 

There are no gaps displayed on Momentum Bar charts, so when there is a price gap in the underlying data, "virtual bars" will be inserted as necessary to fill in the gap on the Momentum Bar chart. These "virtual bars" can be easily distinguished from "real" Momentum Bars by their Up Volume and Down Volume values, which will both be zero. Note, in order for a bar to be considered a "virtual bar", there should be no real price activity contained within the bar.

 

 

 

Range Bar Chart

 

Range Bars were developed in 1995 by a Brazilian broker and trader, Vicente M. Nicolellis, Jr. The purpose of Range Bars was to focus only on changes in price; thus they do not close at a specific time, but instead only when the range is complete. Each bar has a specified price range, rather than being charted in units of time or ticks. With a focus on price movement, long periods of consolidation may be condensed into just a few bars, removing excess noise in the market and highlighting "real" price movements. So it is possible that an entire month of daily bars could fit into a single Range Bar, and the next month would have 30 Range Bars.

 

Range Bars are built by the underlying closing data that shows the directional trends as per the range amount. Range Bar charts are time independent so that time axis increments will not be fixed. The size of the bars will always be the range size set by you and will never be anything smaller or larger unless it is the current bar that is building.

 

Range Bars look like standard bars, but are different in four ways:

 

1. Range Bars are all equal in height, based on the Range specified by the user.

 

2. The open of each Range Bar is always equal to the close of the previous Range Bar.

This is the primary difference between Range Bar and Momentum Bar charts.

 

3. Range Bar closes are always at the top or bottom of the bar.

 

4. Range Bars charts have no gaps.

 

 

How a Range Bar is Built:

 

Since Range Bars are driven by price movement, a new Range Bar is only created once the specified Range has been met. For example, if the specified Range amount is $10, it means that each Range Bar will have a range (High to Low) of $10. It is thus conceivable that a single Range Bar could represent several days if the movement throughout those days was only within a $10 price range. Once a Range Bar is closed-out, the open of the next Range Bar will always be at exactly the same price as the Close of the prior Range Bar.

 

There are no gaps displayed on Range Bar charts, so when there is a price gap in the underlying data, "virtual bars" will be inserted as necessary to fill in the gap on the Range Bar chart. These "virtual bars" can be easily distinguished from "real" Range Bars by their Up Volume and Down Volume values, which will both be zero. Note, in order for a bar to be considered a "virtual bar", there should be no real price activity contained within the bar.

 

==========

 

so that must be the info they are using to move forward, obviously what we've seen on the "live platform" to date haven't been "range bars" according to the above, but haven't been "momentum bars" either, at least not in the 6E. true "momentum bars" should be coming soon, though he couldn't confirm that it would be this weekend

 

there are some different definitions out there, and different ideas as i learned from the articles in SFO back in Feb & Apr 2003, those articles can be accessed at their website

 

thanks again to you & all who have helped bring this thing to a resolution,

sandy

[brownsfan019 17]

Sandy - welcome to the forum.

 

From what I was told, production will get the upgrade that sim got this weekend assuming it has gone as planned this week. If there has been any hangups, I assume they will postpone taking it live till there is no issues.

[macdfx 10]

When OEC says that their bars "have no gaps", this means that phantom bars are used to fill in the missing information.

 

You can't have it any other way, especially in a fast moving market, like CL every Wed at 10:30a et, or NG every Thurs at the same time. Or like today's Fed announcement at 2:15p et

 

Unfortunately, since momentum and range bars are relatively new (in the world of technical analysis) there really isn't a consensus yet as to what the difference between these bars actually is.

 

IMHO, Range bars have no phantom bars added, while Momemtum bars do.

 

This means that range bars charts may have gaps in periods of high-volatility, while Momentum bars should not, since "phantom bars" are used in between gaps.

 

So, if what was posted is a true bill as to what OEC is planning on deploying, you are getting Momentum bars in either case since "virtual bars" are used during gaps.

 

True range bars (such as those found in Sierra Chart, for example) don't have these artifacts added to the mix at all. No fake-ass bars thrown in, just for the hell of it.

[brownsfan019 17]

As has been stated a few times now macdfx, OEC is going w/ the industry standard on these upgrades.

 

As I also have stated before, no matter what they do it will not please everyone and that you have alternatives out there.

[macdfx 10]

Yes, and as I've made a point to explain...

 

THERE IS NO INDUSTRY STANDARD on these bars yet.

 

But as soon as a consensus emerges among various vendors and their implementation, then it'll make sense.

 

For example, Tradestation now has them too. Since I don't use TS anymore, I don't have access to their forums to check it out, but anyone who does could probably post how TS does it as well.

 

Since OEC is a secondary charting source for me anyway, this is all a tempest in a teapot. As long as it works for you that's all that really matters in the long run.

[brownsfan019 17]

Yes, and as I've made a point to explain...

 

THERE IS NO INDUSTRY STANDARD on these bars yet.

 

But as soon as a consensus emerges among various vendors and their implementation, then it'll make sense.

 

For example, Tradestation now has them too. Since I don't use TS anymore, I don't have access to their forums to check it out, but anyone who does could probably post how TS does it as well.

 

Since OEC is a secondary charting source for me anyway, this is all a tempest in a teapot. As long as it works for you that's all that really matters in the long run.

 

There is a standard of what is out there right now. Standards can change over time, but there is a standard.

 

We can continue to beat this topic to death or realize that OEC has revised their platform to better represent what is in line w/ other charting vendors.

[macdfx 10]

Exactly. I can only hope Sierra Charts doesn't follow suit, and sticks to its stated policy of "no phantom bars" in its Range bar setup.

 

Anyone with other vendor setups of Range and Momentum bars, like Tradestation, for example, please feel free to post your vendors' specs for comparison.

[MBAGearhead 10]

eSignal's definition from the Exchange Newsletter -- An Information Source for eSignal Subscribers

 

"Range Bars -- The Range Bar chart creates new bars once a tick comes through that is outside the defined range. For example, in a 2-point range bar on the E-mini S&P 500 futures, if the price range is 1473 - 1475 for the current bar, the very next trade that is outside of that will generate a new bar."

 

I do hope OEC's solution does not incorporate phantom prices for all options of range or momentum bars. Having gaps on range bars is preferred when price jumps more than a tick above or below the high or low of the current bar once it has traded it's full range, imho.

[Trendup_ 10]

Since 17:54 ET, prod. version 3.4.08 is displaying the new range bar, no upgrade yet .

Can't use the old version anymore until the new update is released, I guess.

 

 

PS:The same process occurred for the sim 3.4.08, OEC can change the timeframe without upgrading the platform.

It was the easiest way to change the range bar type without upgrading. This could explain why we have the wrong names in the wrong places.

Range bar should be kept for constant range bar. And the new type should be called type 2, to follow the good logic from Sierra Chart.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Trendup_

[Trendup_ 10]

No feed on 3.4 so far this weekend??

I can open my chart only on 3.5 demo, but get a critical error when importing the settings from 3.4.

The 17:00 opening is going to be chaotic for sure.

[daedalus 10]

Yea you can't import any settings from 3.4 which sucks, and for some reason the "Save as Default" checkbox for indicator settings has no effect. If you remove the indicator from the workspace and re-insert none of the settings are saved.