What Psychologists ?

[FXGirl 10]

Dear Zdo:

 

Regarding your statement “And, in my opinion, those small odds plummet to virtually no odds of a trader getting matched up appropriately.” Yes, finding a really good therapist can be a daunting task, but then, so is finding a good car mechanic. Here are some criteria to use in finding the right psychologist:

 

Eliminate anyone who doesn’t have a PhD – an MA just isn’t enough training.

Eliminate anyone who’s PhD isn’t from a school whose name you recognize – there are lots of shoddy programs giving PhD’s.

Eliminate anyone under 40 years old – they just don’t have enough life experience.

Eliminate anyone who hasn’t been licensed for more than five years – you have to do this for a while before you get good at it.

 

At this point, you have probably reduced the field by 80%.

 

Eliminate anyone who you dislike the minute you met them. Don’t try to work it out- run.

Eliminate anyone who tells you that their patients’ average length of therapy is more than 2 years (unless their specialty is working with borderline patients).

Eliminate anyone who seems ill at ease, has a nervous tick, annoying personal habits, or a laugh you don’t like.

Eliminate anyone who isn’t smarter than you are.

 

Now we are down to about 5% and getting close to your match as a therapist. So, give it a try for a couple of session. If at the end of that time you don’t feel that person can help you, move on. Oh, yes, don’t settle for a therapist that just wants to talk about how you feel. Change is about doing things differently, not just emoting.

 

More later about doing working specifically with traders.

[zdo 20]

FXGirl,

 

Thanks. Excellent criteria.

I slightly disagree with the first and second though.

Number 2 first - in many cases, the 'better' / higher profile school names select for research phd candidates more than on clinical potential. They come out with acceptable assessment and diagnostic preparation but not with potential for doing consistent high quality treatment. The types of intelligence good for playing the phd game is not necessarily the intelligence needed for being an effective therapist

 

On the first one - Statistically you're right. Many MA's are hacks. However - raw talent, aptitude, and passion are more crucial to high capacity than credential in any field - including psychology. For example, by far and away the best therapist in our town is an old crone lcsw. She runs circles around all the phd's and they know it...

Also the quality of ongoing mentoring and development is much more important to 'depth' than the initial academic work and supervision...

 

I guess what I'm saying is

one can't go 'wrong' applying the first two criteria

but

one could go 'more right' by not...

 

Looking forward to your thoughts on finding / matching therapists for traders. Maybe open a new thread for it.

 

zdo

Edited January 29, 2010 by zdo

[FXGirl 10]

Hi, Zdo:

 

There is a lot of truth in what you say. Yes, big name graduate schools are interested in candidates that will do research and yes, it does take certain skills to “play the PhD game”. But just because you can do research or play the game, doesn’t mean that you can’t also do therapy well.

 

You are right that talent and passion are essential ingredients for becoming a great therapist; however, just like in trading, it sure helps to have a good mentor. I think that a PhD program gives you a better shot at that, as does an APA approved internship. Still there is no guarantee. I went to a first class school for my PhD, but they didn’t offer a course in marriage, sexuality, drugs, or finance. Guess that people want to talk about in therapy!

 

I’d love to meet your “old crone lcsw”; she sounds fabulous.

[Rande Howell 10]

Hey zdo

 

I still observe this forum, but I found that everytime I entered a conversation, there were a bunch of trader psychologists joisting with one another. Didn't seem productive to me. And, yes, to another very mindful reader, this is a social media avenue. And it has to be evaluated as such. The real driver is whether people want to re-organize their psychology so that they can trade effectively. Few people come into trading equipped from a mindself point of view to be consistent traders. It has to be learned -- if you want to master trading, you will have to conquer the self. If people are seeking to grow as a trader, then I certainly want to be part of that conversation. Will part of that motivation be to expose my work to them -- yes, it will.

Rande Howell

Edited March 5, 2011 by TheNegotiator

[zdo 20]

Thanks Rande. Don’t remember if the issue of “joisting” is on ‘the list of reasons they leave’, but it certainly belongs there.

 

re: “conversation”

One guy comes in and states emphatically – no need to even bother with the mental stuff unless you have an edge.

Another counters – even with an edge, you’re going no where unless you have the mental side mastered.

Then a third (supremely dumas poaster) pops up with the idea that one needs to give equal emphasis to both at all times…

How far will such a ‘conversation’ actually progress?

 

re “social media avenue” About two blocks up, that street name changes to ‘ego strengthening avenue’ … I know I often do not check my egocoat at the door here, but I’ve also observed reactions from others many times that clearly assumed I hadn’t checked it in when I actually had… trading forums are a hierarchy fractured multi level mess I tell you ... and just to keep you toughened up, here’s a ‘mean streets of the internet’ daily joist just for you :haha: - “conquer the self” is an oxygenmoron

 

If this is goodbye part one, I understand. However - Here’s some encouragement, Rande. Keep the contributions coming and post as if you are talking to one other person exclusively… bcse rarely will more than just one person be really listening anyway…

[MadMarketScientist 11]

I for one never realized there were so many trader psychologists out there. Personally I wouldn't take advice from someone who hasn't walked the walk. No matter what their training.

 

I think you could argue you can read a Mark Douglas book or two, then read them again and again and probably gain quite a bit more than most docs could teach you.

 

However, I personally feel that psychology and the mental game plays a huge role in trading. I've worked with and trained a lot of people in my time and this always has been my biggest struggle - dealing with each persons psyche and overwhelming need for some reason to blow up the trade plan. That need to be right all the time is tough to battle.

[KeyToTheCastle 10]

Hey zdo

 

The real driver is whether people want to re-organize their psychology so that they can trade effectively. Few people come into trading equipped from a mindself point of view to be consistent traders. It has to be learned -- if you want to master trading, you will have to conquer the self. If people are seeking to grow as a trader, then I certainly want to be part of that conversation. Will part of that motivation be to expose my work to them -- yes, it will.

Rande Howell

Index of /

 

IMHO you have it backwards sir. The more accurate statement is" learn to trade effectively by developing, understanding the underlying dynamics behind and capitalizing on your edge and then your psychology can be reorganized."

 

Unfortunately motivation alone is simply not enough to change someone's psychology in order to mold them into a successful trader. The market is chock full of unsuccessful motivated traders.

 

Only after one experiences consistent profitability utilizing their edge in the market can they begin to learn, act, feel, and think like a successful trader. Only after the experience of trading with an edge can one develop the confidence to accept risk...until then all the motivation in the world might not be enough.

[zdo 20]

MMS,

 

Are you saying "dealing with each persons psyche and overwhelming need for some reason to blow up the trade plan. That need to be right all the time is tough to battle." , etc. is one of the reasons the 'psychologists' leave? If not, even though your comments are otherwise immpeccable, we're getting off topic of why 'they' leave...

 

The 'psychologists' I was asking about are the traders who come up here to the forum and offer help with the mental challenges of the game - from either a professional or lay level. It was mostly a curiosity question about why most of them post very constructively for a while then just disappear - with a significantly shorter life cycle than most good posters on forums. Recent example - fxGirl... what happens?

 

zdo

[Kiwi 16]

zdo,

 

I wonder if they stop posting because internet trading forums are such a poor venue for achieving their goals. Also, in their normal job they are interacting with a more "real" people. So the reinforcing satisfactions are not there for them.

 

 

MMS,

 

You assert that you wouldn't take the cure from someone who hadn't walked the walk but I think that ignores the value of specialization - on which our whole western industrial civilization has been built. Someone could gain skills in helping people be happier and achieve their goals; then gain some experience with traders and thus understand the drivers of some; and then combine the two to enhance their customer's abilities.

 

I do think we attract more charlatans and one trick ponies than general practice although I suppose even NLP didn't last much longer or stronger with us then in general. I think that the potential rewards might help attract such people to the group; also the extent to which people struggle with themselves in trading.

 

Kiwi

[FXGirl 10]

Sometimes life gets in the way of posting. It’s been a gray, cold spring and early summer here on the coast of Southern California and my family has needed a lot of attention – youngest son going through a major health and career challenge. Last week the sun finally came out and it seems that we’ll have a summer after all, if a short one. Now it’s time to get the taxes done – I hate this part of running your own business.

 

Rande, I dropped by your booth at the Trader’s Expo in Las Vegas last May. It was good to make your acquaintance and be able to match a face with your posts. I found your grasp of traders’ psychology impressive and your program looks like a good one. I’m looking forward to your presentation in September in Vegas. I’ll come up after your talk and maybe we can chat for a while.

 

If any of the people on this thread are going to be in Las Vegas at the Trader’s Expo, it might be fun to get together as a group. Shall we organize that?

 

MadMarketScientist, you bring up an interesting point about expertise when you said, “I wouldn’t take advice from someone who hasn’t walked the walk. No matter what their training.” My gut wants to agree with you: If I were selecting a trading coach to work with, I’d want to know that he/she had gone through the process of becoming a successful trader. This would help me feel that the coach really understood the challenges I was facing. On the other hand, I know as a psychologist that it’s possible to help someone who has been abused, raped, suffers from addiction, is depressed, anxious, can’t stop washing their hands and checking the locks on the doors, is cutting themselves, going through a divorce or any of a number of other difficulties without having experienced those difficulties myself.

 

So, I’m not really sure where I stand on this issue. Lots of studies have shown that the quality of the connection between the therapist and the client is more important than the type of therapeutic intervention used. I guess that the most important criteria for me in selecting a trading coach would be whether I thought we were on the same wave length (gut level feeling) and whether they were competent to help me (knowledge and expertise). Perhaps others have some thoughts about this issue.

 

While we are talking, MadMarketScientist, I do want to question another of your statements: “…each persons psyche and overwhelming need for some reason to blow up the trade plan.” Although I have a healthy respect for the unconscious and its ability to interfere with our conscious intent, I don’t think that many people have an overwhelming need to blow up their trade plan. That seems like a catchall phrase that can prevent you from digging deeper and identifying the real issues. Just like a “fear of success” is not about fearing success, but about fearing you won’t be liked, or fearing that you won’t be loved by you father if you do better than he has, or a myriad of other possible reasons, if you don’t get down to the real issue(s), therapy isn’t going to go anywhere.

 

Or it could just be that the trader in question just doesn’t have the strategies he/she needs to handle his emotions/physiological arousal during trading – no big underlying issue.

[KeyToTheCastle 10]

Or it could just be that the trader in question just doesn’t have the strategies he/she needs to handle his emotions/physiological arousal during trading – no big underlying issue.

 

Hello fxgirl..not sure about your last statement there. If you are referring to having an edge then I agree. But I respectfully disagree with the traditional way in which people try to use psychology to become better traders. I am not a psychologist but rather speaking from my personal experience as well as observing other traders.

 

Everyone seems to lean on psychology as a crutch for their unsuccessful trading. Traders should concentrate on finding their edge first. But more importantly...not only having an edge and being able to implement it but fully understanding the underlying dynamics that cause your edge to work and tilt probabilities in your favor on a consistent basis. It's one thing to have an edge and being able to notice situations and patterns that produce the edge but it's not until you reach the point of understanding the underlying reasons beneath the surface that are making the situation play out in a certain way do you begin to take your trading to a whole new level where you accept risk and make decisions based on market derived information not some arbitrary stop or profit level.

 

Having and understanding an edge = Acceptance of risk = beginning to think,act,trade like a successful trader.

 

Can psychology help someone after that point....maybe....but until a trader is at the point of trading with an edge then the psychology only serves to temporarily make them feel better until they begin to trade and start losing again.

 

The conditioning and repetition of seeing and experiencing your edge play out real time in the market is the 1st step to success. Edge first then the psychology can fall into place.

[FXGirl 10]

Hi, Castle: Yes, I can’t agree with you more that if you don’t have an edge, you can’t be a profitable trader. And understanding where that edge comes from, “the underlying reasons beneath the surface…” is essential. Where we probably disagree is how you get to profitability.

 

Because you are an experienced trader, you understand that there are different levels of understanding market movement – the novice’s grasp is much different from that of the trading veteran of many years. The novice trader who learns a trading strategy (let’s assume that it is a valid edge) from a class or mentor can trade that strategy without having an understanding of the underlying market principles from which it is derived. All he has to do is follow the rules. Of course, he is going to encounter psychological issues that make it tough for him to stay true to the rules of the strategy. The more cut and dry the rules are and the greater the win/loss ratio of the strategy, the easier it is going to be for him to navigate the psychological issues. Can he be successful? Yes, if he manages the psychological part of trading, after all, he has an edge that works. Does he really get what is going on in the market? Only to a very limited extent.

 

After a several years and many, many hours in front of the charts, our trader will begin to develop a more intuitive grasp of market movement. His subconscious mind has seen various patterns in the market over and over again. He has a “gut” feeling about what is happening. When he is able to move this implicit subconscious learning to a conscious, explicit level, he’ll be able to develop and test additional trading strategies. And, of course, a greater appreciation and understanding of risk is part of this process.

 

While our trader has been growing in technical expertise, he has also had to face his psychological demons. If he has not done some of this successfully, he will no longer be trading – his losses will have wiped out his account, despite refunding many times, and he will be demoralized and will quit.

 

If our trader survives this intermediate stage and continues to accumulate implicit learning and translate it to explicit market knowledge, he will be come a master trader. In the process, his greater win/loss ratio will make it easier to deal with psychological issues. There is nothing like consistent profitability to give you calm and confidence. But you’ll never get to consistent profitability without psychological mastery.

 

Let’s look at your formula: “Having and understanding an edge = Acceptance of risk = beginning to think, act, trade like a successful trader.” Acceptance of risk – a psychological issue if every there was one. You could argue that greater market knowledge give you a cognitive underpinning for greater acceptance of risk, but unless you also recognize that becoming comfortable (emotional component) with risk is a psychological process, you are missing the boat. “Beginning to think, act, trade like a successful trader” – also has significant emotional components. Even at the most basic level, acting like a successful trader requires that you have developed a way to manage the brain’s emotional/physiological response to threat. Never mind all the cognitive and emotional structures on top of that.

 

It’s easy to use our own experience in moving through the process of becoming a successful trader as a template for others. Perhaps you came to trading with a well-developed set of strategies for managing emotions. If so, your journey may best have been undertaken by concentrating on finding your edge. That isn’t necessarily the case for others. For some, the emotional components of trading are a real stumbling block that will prevent them from being successful even if they develop a great edge.

 

Anyway, the whole issue of edge versus trading psychology is a silly argument. Any careful observer can see that you can’t become a consistently profitable trader without mastering both. The important discussion is about how you make them work together so you get to mastery.

[KeyToTheCastle 10]

Hi, Castle: Yes, I can’t agree with you more that if you don’t have an edge, you can’t be a profitable trader. And understanding where that edge comes from, “the underlying reasons beneath the surface…” is essential. Where we probably disagree is how you get to profitability.

 

Because you are an experienced trader, you understand that there are different levels of understanding market movement – the novice’s grasp is much different from that of the trading veteran of many years. The novice trader who learns a trading strategy (let’s assume that it is a valid edge) from a class or mentor can trade that strategy without having an understanding of the underlying market principles from which it is derived. All he has to do is follow the rules. Of course, he is going to encounter psychological issues that make it tough for him to stay true to the rules of the strategy. The more cut and dry the rules are and the greater the win/loss ratio of the strategy, the easier it is going to be for him to navigate the psychological issues. Can he be successful? Yes, if he manages the psychological part of trading, after all, he has an edge that works. Does he really get what is going on in the market? Only to a very limited extent.

 

After a several years and many, many hours in front of the charts, our trader will begin to develop a more intuitive grasp of market movement. His subconscious mind has seen various patterns in the market over and over again. He has a “gut” feeling about what is happening. When he is able to move this implicit subconscious learning to a conscious, explicit level, he’ll be able to develop and test additional trading strategies. And, of course, a greater appreciation and understanding of risk is part of this process.

 

While our trader has been growing in technical expertise, he has also had to face his psychological demons. If he has not done some of this successfully, he will no longer be trading – his losses will have wiped out his account, despite refunding many times, and he will be demoralized and will quit.

 

If our trader survives this intermediate stage and continues to accumulate implicit learning and translate it to explicit market knowledge, he will be come a master trader. In the process, his greater win/loss ratio will make it easier to deal with psychological issues. There is nothing like consistent profitability to give you calm and confidence. But you’ll never get to consistent profitability without psychological mastery.

 

Let’s look at your formula: “Having and understanding an edge = Acceptance of risk = beginning to think, act, trade like a successful trader.” Acceptance of risk – a psychological issue if every there was one. You could argue that greater market knowledge give you a cognitive underpinning for greater acceptance of risk, but unless you also recognize that becoming comfortable (emotional component) with risk is a psychological process, you are missing the boat. “Beginning to think, act, trade like a successful trader” – also has significant emotional components. Even at the most basic level, acting like a successful trader requires that you have developed a way to manage the brain’s emotional/physiological response to threat. Never mind all the cognitive and emotional structures on top of that.

 

It’s easy to use our own experience in moving through the process of becoming a successful trader as a template for others. Perhaps you came to trading with a well-developed set of strategies for managing emotions. If so, your journey may best have been undertaken by concentrating on finding your edge. That isn’t necessarily the case for others. For some, the emotional components of trading are a real stumbling block that will prevent them from being successful even if they develop a great edge.

 

Anyway, the whole issue of edge versus trading psychology is a silly argument. Any careful observer can see that you can’t become a consistently profitable trader without mastering both. The important discussion is about how you make them work together so you get to mastery.

 

"Acceptance of risk – a psychological issue if every there was one." Absolutely agree 100% with that statement....but my point is only by the conditioning and repetition of seeing your edge play out will that psychological acceptance come. I take it that some would suggest that psychological exercises will get you to that acceptance and that is what I disagree with.

 

 

"It’s easy to use our own experience in moving through the process of becoming a successful trader as a template for others. Perhaps you came to trading with a well-developed set of strategies for managing emotions. If so, your journey may best have been undertaken by concentrating on finding your edge. That isn’t necessarily the case for others. For some, the emotional components of trading are a real stumbling block that will prevent them from being successful even if they develop a great edge."

I have to agree partly with that...I am speaking only from my own experience and the experience of watching a small sample of other traders closely. But I also have to say that psychologically I was a trading wreck for about 9 years on and off. Blowing through accounts, going from one indicator to the next, never comfortable being in a trade. And why? Because I never had the confidence that I had the odds in my favor when I entered a trade. During that time I never sought out live psychological help but I do own 4 of the most popular books on the subject and did a lot of reading and research about it. And none of it helped me. Until I started to realize my edge. And even after that it still took me months of repetition and conditioning before becoming profitable. My mindset slowly shifted from one dominated by the thoughts of a losing trader to those of a winning trader. I dont know what else to say except that once I started trading from a winning mindset...thinking, acting and feeling like a winning trader did I start to do the things that winning traders do.

 

Anyway, the whole issue of edge versus trading psychology is a silly argument. Any careful observer can see that you can’t become a consistently profitable trader without mastering both. The important discussion is about how you make them work together so you get to mastery.

 

I don't think its silly at all....especially on a traders website. I guess we both agree that obviously there are elements of edge and trading psychology that make up a successful trader but my point is that realizing your edge opens up the door to making advancements in the psychology department and not vice versa.

 

Great weekend all!

[Rande Howell 10]

zdo -- having some problems getting to post, so going to the general thead.

 

Not sure what an oxegenmoron is. I know what an oxymoron is though -- and conquering the self, in my work with traders, is central to them becoming consistently successful. Traders appear to have to either confront their fears that manifest in trading or conquer impulsivity wiring that short circuits the desired impartial, disciplined, patient, and courageous state of mind required to produce peak performance trading. The first layer of fear (say fear of loss in trading) is rarely the deeper fear that drives the belief system of the person. It is out of this belief system that the fear of loss springs. Being that the brain is organized to avoid discomfort first, traders (like other human beings) are forced to confront and then conquer their deeper hardwired beliefs of inadequacy, unworthiness, and not mattering that manifest as trading fears (those 9 roadblocks I address in my webinars). This is what I call core material. And for me, there is an internal struggle within each of us that trading forces us to confront. This is the "conquering the self" to which I refer.

 

The impulse part is hardwired circuitry that is laying on top of the belief system embedded in neural pathways. Fortunately this can be disrupted by understanding the core concern that triggers the circuitry to produce an emotional cascade called an impulse. That can be interrupted using emotional regulation training, but the trader still has to conquer, then re-organanize their belief system. It is this belief system that trades using the tools of platform and methodology. Out of the totality of possibility that the market represents, it is the belief system that actually interprets what is actually seen. To re-organize the self, the belief system that creates the particular construction of the self, requires courage. The brain simply does not want to change a perceptual map once it is created. It is the deconstruction and re-organization of this core material that I call conquering the self. Trading simply forces you into battle within the self -- or you continue losing capital.

 

Hope this makes sense and is useful.

Rande

[FXGirl 10]

Castle: Okay, I take back the word “silly” – how about “chicken or egg”? I’m glad we agree that successful traders have to have both edge and psychological savvy. Can we also agree that those two component some together in different ways for different people?

 

You said: “My mindset slowly shifted from one dominated by the thoughts of a losing trader to those of a winning trader. I dont know what else to say except that once I started trading from a winning mindset...thinking, acting and feeling like a winning trader did I start to do the things that winning traders do.” I’m very interested in what you mean by a “winning mindset” and “I start to do the things that winning traders do”. Could you tell me more about what you mean and what your experience was?

 

I do believe that if traders started their careers with a winning edge, either by subscribing to a reliable signal service or learning a reliable system from a mentor, they could avoid a lot of the emotional anguish that comes from loosing again and again while they are attempting to find an edge. Perhaps these traders-with-an-edge would be starting from a very different place than most of us started from and would have a much different experience of becoming successful. What do you think? Is that possible? In what ways would the path to profitability be different?

[Rande Howell 10]

IMHO

We disagree. But I am not wrong. We are constantly creating the conditions of our experience in trading. Our belliefs, living as dialog in our mind, create the world we see. This is what you trade. Anything else is a fabication. If your trading account is growing, then in, black and white, can assess your compentency in the current organziation of the self that you are trading. My observation is that few people are so currently orangized as to trade well. Cutting out all the BS lies the simple fact, are you profitable or are you seeking? Your beliefs trade. Most of the traders I work with have been trading for a good time and still sabotage themselves. If practice were the answer, then simulated trading would be a good indicator or success. It's not. Re-organzing the self to produce a competent trader is .

Rande

[KeyToTheCastle 10]

Castle: Okay, I take back the word “silly” – how about “chicken or egg”? I’m glad we agree that successful traders have to have both edge and psychological savvy. Can we also agree that those two component some together in different ways for different people?

 

You said: “My mindset slowly shifted from one dominated by the thoughts of a losing trader to those of a winning trader. I dont know what else to say except that once I started trading from a winning mindset...thinking, acting and feeling like a winning trader did I start to do the things that winning traders do.” I’m very interested in what you mean by a “winning mindset” and “I start to do the things that winning traders do”. Could you tell me more about what you mean and what your experience was?

 

I do believe that if traders started their careers with a winning edge, either by subscribing to a reliable signal service or learning a reliable system from a mentor, they could avoid a lot of the emotional anguish that comes from loosing again and again while they are attempting to find an edge. Perhaps these traders-with-an-edge would be starting from a very different place than most of us started from and would have a much different experience of becoming successful. What do you think? Is that possible? In what ways would the path to profitability be different?

 

I’m glad we agree that successful traders have to have both edge and psychological savvy. Can we also agree that those two component some together in different ways for different people?

 

Hello FxGirl...been a very busy Sunday open so far. I wanted to quickly respond and maybe follow up with how my winning mindset evolved at a later date.

 

I speak mostly out of my own personal trading experience and the transition that I went through as a trader. A process, I must say, that took me a very long time. Again...the place that I started from was that of a consistently unsuccessful trader with no edge, no consistent results, no mentor... obsessing over one indicator then the next, looking for the holy grail while blowing through account after account so I think I started from a place familiar to most typical retail traders. And...forgot to mention...trading with scared money.

(I can easily go in many directions here but whether someone starts trading with scared money or not, sooner or later they get to that frame of mind of trading with scared money as they blow through any financial cushion they had.)

 

We agree on most basic points. The thing I am adamant about, (again personal experience) is that no matter the amount of psychological help I had available to me it wouldn't have helped me until I got to a point of having an edge and understanding the dynamics behind that edge. It's only at that point did I start to trade from a mindset of a successful trader...started to think, act, feel like a successful trader and become comfortable in the market, whether taking heat in a trade or riding a big winner. (Acceptance of risk) Yes, from that point on is where I think the psychology started to come into play and help me advance as a trader but at that point (at least for me) the psychology started to fall into place on its own. And obviously trade management had to be learned and improved upon but at least I had my base in which to build on.

 

I sound like I'm rambling so we'll pick this up again I'm sure.

[FXGirl 10]

Castle: You make an interesting point about “the conditioning and repetition of seeing your edge pay out”. In some ways, it is like developing faith in your system (edge). Lack of faith (or confidence, if you like that word better) seems to be a big issue for many traders and can result in hesitating to get in, then once in a trade, getting out too soon. For those whose systems have a high win/loss ratio, developing faith can be relatively easy. For those with potentially profitable systems, but with win/loss ratios closer to 50-50, faith, or acceptance, may be a hard won commodity.

 

Could you say more about “….from that point on….the psychology started to fall into place on its own”? Thanks.

 

Rande: Sorry, I wasn’t clear about who/what you are disagreeing with. Could you say more?

 

You make an interesting point when you say the results in your trading account are a reflection of “your competency in the current organization of the self that you are trading”. I would have to agree if we start from the assumption that the trader in question really has an edge and that we are looking at his/her results over a period of time. However, until a trader has a reliable edge, sorting out what is lack of technical skill from what is psychological issue can be messy. For example, a trader saying, “I’m never going to be successful at this” is an accurate statement when he doesn’t have an edge and may say very little about his psychology. Okay, I’ll grant you that was an extreme example, but I’m sure you get my drift.

 

In an earlier post, you said: “Few people come into trading equipped from a mindself point of view to be consistent traders. It has to be learned…” If I understand you correctly, I think this is very true. Many of the strategies we use to be successful in other arenas, business and personal, are irrelevant in dealing with the market. For example, the market doesn’t care how charming you are. And the market is incredibly ambiguous thus giving us a wonderful Rorschach on which we can project any and all of our psychological glitches. Throw in the threat of loss and we have a very tough environment indeed. Nevertheless, some survive and become successful traders. Maybe we could talk about the psychological traits, strategies, hardiness, etc., that allow some traders to be come winners. What do you think? Also, please tell me what you mean by “mindself”?

[zdo 20]

Hey guys

I swear you ppl will just post any damn where...:crap::doh::helloooo:

 

There's a thread on this topic

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f37/edge-first-integration-first-both-first-8410.html

 

Beginners/strugglers in the long run are not going to find some of the excellent material you're posting - bcse in the long run not many will go deep into a thread about why 'psychologists' leave the forum... please move it over there. thx

 

Tell you what - I'll paste a digest of the recent material so you can just take off

[Rande Howell 10]

FXGirl

What most traders say to me is this, "I know how to trade, but my emotions get in the way." There are numerous methodologies taught that give a trader a technical edge. And, when capital is not at risk with simulated trading, they are able to trade effectively. However, when their money enters the game, the edge is lost. They cannot separate biologically based fear from a higher order risk management. The edge, the Holy Grail, is within them. It is the re-organization of belief that shifts the perspective so that they can act from a peak performance state of mind. If they have not become competent in a methodology with which they can manage risk, you are right, they do not have an edge to begin with. Here, I'm assuming that the trader has invested in his/her platform and methodology and are learning how to develop the psychological skills to use them under game conditions.

 

Rande

[FXGirl 10]

Hey guys

I swear you ppl will just post any damn where...:crap::doh::helloooo:

 

There's a thread on this topic

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f37/edge-first-integration-first-both-first-8410.html

 

Beginners/strugglers in the long run are not going to find some of the excellent material you're posting - bcse in the long run not many will go deep into a thread about why 'psychologists' leave the forum... please move it over there. thx

 

Tell you what - I'll paste a digest of the recent material so you can just take off

 

Sorry, Zdo. I'll move over to the other thread.

[jeremymullins79 10]

People's mind must be set to trading and people who consider themselves as traders must have a steady paced mind and find ways to calm themselves down in various situations.

 

"I know how to trade, but my emotions get in the way."

 

A good trader will always have emotions standing in the way but a great trades knows how to use those emotions in his or her favor.

[MadMarketScientist 11]

For me I've never really found a way to channel emotions in trading in a positive way. I'm sure there are others who have had that breakthrough but in 20+ years the best case for me is when I get robotic about things and my trading plan/rules. I suppose one could argue that things like fear of loss, risk aversion, etc... could be channeled properly but if I'm smart about my plan that's already built in.

 

I still haven't cracked the code though of being an emotion-free trader and I find I am constantly working on improving my approach. One of the hardest things is getting that emotion out. Today, case in point. Market I trade (Crude Oil) took off quickly and I didn't have time to adjust my short entry - so I went short sooner than I should have based on my rules. Ideally I should have just covered and taken a small loss but I held on thinking, maybe it will work out - after all I only got in 2 ticks higher than my intended entry. Instead, it stopped out. Now the emotions start to play a part. Then it takes me extra trades that I wouldn't have needed since next trade wins - - usually where I quit - but now I have that extra loser. So I have to keep going. In the end I finally scratch back to positive, on a day that should have been firmly positive.

 

What do I do? I let the emotions of just feeling good about getting back positive and I quit there. My rules though said objective not hit yet but my emotions said stop, good job. Next trade hits full target. With me on the sidelines. Emotions took over.

 

MMS

[FXGirl 10]

Dear MMS: Emotions aren't the problem, behavior is.

 

It is impossible to be emotion-free. Our brains and physiology are hardwired to produce emotion, and decision making doesn't take place without emotion (people with brain injuries who have no emotions are unable to make decisions). Emotions are information. If, as a trader, you have developed good strategies to handle your emotions whatever they are, you'll be able to stick to your trading plan. If your strategies aren't up to handling either your positive or negative emotions, you behavior will reflect this and you'll do things at don't support your trading goal. Emotion -> strategies -> behavior.

 

Now the strategies are the complicated part. But that's for another post.

[Rande Howell 10]

MMS

People confuse emotions with feelings. Feelings are the subjective experience of the emotion. They let you know the emotion is present. That's it. But by ignoring the feeling, the emotions grows and hijacks mind. Men, in particular, have a difficult time working with emotions.

 

First, I offer a different understanding of emotion. An emotion is an deviation to a standard sensorial pattern. It is the disruption to this familiar pattern that triggers the emotion into being. The emotion is composed of (1) motivation -- what it is tellling you to do (hesitation, etc), (2) meaning - perception that becomes fused with the emotion (3) arousal - that the chemistry of emotion commonly called stress (4) temperment - that's the genetics and (5) feeling - this is your experience of the emotion and is the least important part of working with the emotion.

 

It is these components that need to be explored before a grounded assessment can be made about what you brought forth. But it is the emotion that creates the kind of thinking that you are capable of in a trade. Learning to regulate and work with the emotion comes next.

 

Rande Howell