What Psychologists ?

[zdo 20]

What happens to our forum trading psychologists / psychiatrists ?

Seems some stay a little longer than others but none of them stay for very long.

Some thoughts / questions on why:

They fear being peer… you’re basic’ power in the helping professions’ trips don’t work very well with traders. ??”

They are really on forum to recruit clients – and when that doesn’t work they peel off ??

Their general and individual models are inadequate and incomplete for ‘helping’ traders and forum ‘work’ accelerates that realization ??

They are ‘wounded healers’ and once they work through their own issue(s), they just don’t need to help anymore ??

Thoughts ?

[RichardTodd 10]

If you really want to know, why not ask some of them?

[DugDug 10]

All of the above plus

 

they go nuts themselves

they were nuts before hand and any sort of forum feedback further hurts the self esteem.

 

or possibly an open forum is not the best place for any sort of proper therapy and they come to the realisation that if they really are trying to help then its probably unethical/improper to be posting..... particularly if they are professional and searching for clients or have some valid ideas to pass on. Selling professional services such as these I feel are very different to offering a trading system or whiz bang idea.

[johnjohn1hew 10]

Why not figure things out on your own and stop blaming others for not giving you what you are too lazy to find?? A question that should be added. I hate to see people lying to themselves.

[DugDug 10]

A bit harsh JohnJohn1hew????

I thought the point of a forum was to seek out the help of others for those skills you may not have?

 

you are right about people lying to themselves - Not everyone is able to help themselves - hence the need for psychologists.

Imagine if everybody tried to do home surgery or medical self diagnosis? I guess it would fix the health budgets of governments.

[JBWTrader 10]

Whats wrong with going nuts anyway ?!!

 

not directed towards anyone in particular...

 

all sane people have mad states....some are lucky enough to find them although the (the states) never present themselves with a lot of choice or in the best light and nearly always have poor timing for that matter....

 

the best Analysts have had their own states Analysed ...how else can you walk in their patients shoes...

 

Best

John

[zdo 20]

RE:

If you really want to know, why not ask some of them?

Well for one - they are gone. Plus - Going on my impressions of the body of work contributed from ‘them’ so far, I'm thinking I would get much more authentic answers from traders (with own life examined,etc) than ‘them’. I should note, these questions are more about the patterns of how 'they' appear on the scene and then disappear, and the dynamics when here - than are they a criticism of the ‘helpers’. As DugDug and JWBTrader are pointing out, they definitely have their own issues - even though most of them cloak those issues to a fault.

 

Is this accurate ? Trading 'therapists' are NOT regular 'therapists'.

 

Is this accurate ? Many of the issues faced by traders that are pparently 'psychological' , really have no psychological solutions at all.

 

 

 

 

re: "Why not figure things out on your own ... " Soultrader, there you go. Shut it down. Site no longer needed…

[DugDug 10]

RE:

I'm thinking I would get much more authentic answers from traders (with own life examined,etc) than ‘them’.

 

Ultimately - we are responsible for our own work, however I would say that definitely some people - be they traders or therapists - are better at others in getting to the crux of a problem AND then being able to explain why and how to fix it.

(I myself find that I need to improve my descriptions of things when writing)

 

So given that a therapist may be good if they are good at solving a problem, whereas a trader may actually be terrible at this element of it even though they have the experience and mean well.

The best experience is your own.....and hard work.

 

secondly...."Many of the issues faced by traders that are pparently 'psychological' , really have no psychological solutions at all"

 

I think the original bet for the turtle trading experiment shows this to be false. They were given the same rules, opportunities etc. What caused some to follow the rules and succeed and the others to not follow the rules.

As I could tell it was only down to the psyc reasons?

If so then there are plenty of tricks/tips that are possible to do to improve the mental thoughts and habits to follow the rules. (testing, keeping journals, making plans, research, regular holidays, scaling down trades when on a loosing streak)

 

Most of the success of people in all walks of life, but also in all forms or trading can be defined by their habits and thought processes.

 

It always reminds me of a set of questions a few of us used to ask..... does an idiot/fool know they are an idiot?

How do you incentivise someone who is inherently lazy and just will not do the work required - even if they have certain natural talents?

[zdo 20]

DugDug,

Thanks. With this line of thinking, can you direct and relate it to the why 'they' leave / original topic?

 

Also -

re: "habits and thought processes."

habits ? - definitely

thought processes ? - not so sure about that paradigm anymore. That's getting to where the 'psychology' may be falling down.

Thought may not be as central as we would like to think

Edited January 20, 2010 by zdo

[thalestrader 14]

What happens to our forum trading psychologists / psychiatrists ?

Seems some stay a little longer than others but none of them stay for very long.

 

I think a little "back story" here would have gone a long way. Seems like it could have been an interesting thread, but I can't even be sure what it's about.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[FXGirl 10]

What happens to our forum trading psychologists / psychiatrists ?

Seems some stay a little longer than others but none of them stay for very long.

Some thoughts / questions on why:

They fear being peer… you’re basic’ power in the helping professions’ trips don’t work very well with traders. ??”

They are really on forum to recruit clients – and when that doesn’t work they peel off ??

Their general and individual models are inadequate and incomplete for ‘helping’ traders and forum ‘work’ accelerates that realization ??

They are ‘wounded healers’ and once they work through their own issue(s), they just don’t need to help anymore ??

Thoughts ?

 

Dear Zdo: I'm still here. Did you have something you wanted help with?

 

It seems like you have a rather negative opinion of psychologists. Let's talk about your questions:

 

First, "....you're basic power in the helping professions' trips don't work very well with traders.??" Any psychologist worth his/her salt, loves to have involved, motivated clients. Those are the ones who make progress. In general, traders are motivated and have clear measurable goals (equity curve increase). That's refreshing!

 

Second, "They are really on forum to recruit clients..." I can't speak for other psychologists, but I'm here to be a resource for others, share my opinion, learn from others and have a little fun.

 

Third, "Their general and individual models are inadequate and incomplete for ‘helping’ traders..." Now this is an interesting contention. I do think that it is more difficult to help traders if you aren't a trader yourself - after all, trading is a unique experience - however, I think that how people learn to manage ambiguity and risk in trading is very similar to how they learn to do it in life.

 

Fourth, "They are ‘wounded healers’ and once they work through their own issue(s), they just don’t need to help anymore ??" This one made me laugh. Of course there are therapist out there that haven't done their own work (very unfortunate for their clients), but I'm not sure that participating in this forum would make a difference to those therapists.

 

Fifth, "Thoughts ?" Yes, I do have some thoughts. Most people who post on the psychology of trading threads seem to think that the answer to all psychological issues is to 'get some discipline'. Most can't articulate how to do that, nor are they aware of how they did it. They make no allowance for individual psychological makeup and how that might effect someone's efforts to become a successful trader. The basic advice that traders give each other is some version of "just suck it up and do it". I wish that worked. Trading would be much simpler and we wouldn't need to discuss trading psychology.

 

Yours,

Dr. FxGirl

[zdo 20]

I think a little "back story" here would have gone a long way. Seems like it could have been an interesting thread, but I can't even be sure what it's about.

 

Backstory is pretty simple – they come and they go in the threads. Noticed it and I’m curious what happens. Introduced a few snide possibilities in the o.p., but was seriously asking if any others had insights into what happens to ‘them’ ( ‘them’ being the serial professionals (MD, PHd, licensed etcs. ) that come and go on TL ).

Across the years, I continue to evolve my own (currently somewhat ambivalent but mostly neutral) opinions about trading therapists and coaches – but that is not really germane to this specific topic / question.

If you have insights, please share. If not, no problem. Most of the question threads I start go with some reactivity and few or no answers. nbd…

[FXGirl 10]

Hi, Zdo: I think that people's interests change and/or their time is needed elsewhere. I know for myself that I can't always keep abreast of what is being posted - I lead a busy life, just like everyone else. If the market is slow, I'm more likely to look at what has been posted.

[johnjohn1hew 10]

Thanks DugDug, my comment was not directed at any one in particular, i was just expressing my feeling after having read what the original post stated.To me, people should only seek help and not answers from others. Maybe i believe too much in the theory of recollection.

[johnjohn1hew 10]

Backstory is pretty simple – they come and they go in the threads. Noticed it and I’m curious what happens. Introduced a few snide possibilities in the o.p., but was seriously asking if any others had insights into what happens to ‘them’ ( ‘them’ being the serial professionals (MD, PHd, licensed etcs. ) that come and go on TL ).

Across the years, I continue to evolve my own (currently somewhat ambivalent but mostly neutral) opinions about trading therapists and coaches – but that is not really germane to this specific topic / question.

If you have insights, please share. If not, no problem. Most of the question threads I start go with some reactivity and few or no answers. nbd…

 

Why would anyone put more emphasis on what a scholarly trader has to say than on a trader without any education? This is kind of sad and elitist.

[FXGirl 10]

Theory of recollection?

[johnjohn1hew 10]

Theory of recollection?

 

Read Plato's Dialogue Meno, or do a Google search.

[FXGirl 10]

Thanks DugDug, my comment was not directed at any one in particular, i was just expressing my feeling after having read what the original post stated.To me, people should only seek help and not answers from others. Maybe i believe too much in the theory of recollection.

 

Thanks for the reference. Now that I know what you are talking about, I'd like to ask if you think that applies to trading?

Edited January 20, 2010 by FXGirl

[Kiwi 16]

I suspect they leave because they decide that their continued presence is not attracting much business. And that they can't stay long without giving away a lot free.

 

They might also get bored with where its going or not going.

 

They are in business after all.

[johnjohn1hew 10]

Thanks for the reference. Now that I know what you are talking about, I'd like to ask if you think that applies to trading?

 

In life, what there is to know is easily learnt if we use reasoning.

[JBWTrader 10]

True JohnJohn1hew

 

I also think the unconscious is very unconscious and therefore we all have shadows that contain the hidden work some of us need or have to do. Pain is a great motivator for seeking the "grail". In the pain is nearly always the "answer" but most just want to be rid of it ie to find the 'secret' of trading... I believe too many place too much emphasis on psychology in trading especially when no edge has been really found in the first place.

 

I know there is a very wide scale of therapeutic application of psychology and therefore a very wide scale of quality of practitioners who could be graded from very poor to outstanding/enlightening in affecting the patient.... nothing is guaranteed in life though. Reputation has a lot to do with how much a therapist has their weekly schedule filled.

 

Trading is just one hook into finding the psyche (there are infnitely many others)...many get scared to look into the chaos and understandably so Hence they would rather repeat the same patterns over and over again...through chaos comes order and visa versa ...this is the human psyche cycle..Trading is an activity that can bring all of this out as it can affect everyone with differing degrees of body and mental experience..

 

What I wrote above has everything to do with trading and also nothing at all to do with trading.

 

An interesting topic, well done zdo for starting it

 

All the Best

John

 

 

In life, what there is to know is easily learnt if we use reasoning.

[DugDug 10]

JBWTRADER - "I believe too many place too much emphasis on psychology in trading especially when no edge has been really found in the first place."

 

very good point. you have to put the cart before the horse as they say, and practising good habits for trading will not do you much good if over the long run you have no positive PL expectancy. ie; no edge.

 

Didn't one of the market Wizards sum it up - "we all get what we want out of the markets"

[thalestrader 14]

In life, what there is to know is easily learnt if we use reasoning.

 

Through reasoning, yes. Easily? I don't know, johnjohn1hew, some lessons have been very hard for me to come by ...

 

Best Wishes,

 

Thales

[FXGirl 10]

True JohnJohn1hew

 

I know there is a very wide scale of therapeutic application of psychology and therefore a very wide scale of quality of practitioners who could be graded from very poor to outstanding/enlightening in affecting the patient.... nothing is guaranteed in life though. Reputation has a lot to do with how much a therapist has their weekly schedule filled.

 

Yes, John, you are right there is a wide variety of skill levels among psychologists. But reputation comes from results. It's a difficult craft to learn, similar to in some ways trading. To become really good in either field requires that you come to terms with your own inner glitches. But therapy also requires that you develop a deep understanding of human desires and behavior... as well as compassion and respect. Like trading, there is no substitute for experience.

 

I'm retired now, and glad to be spending my time trading Forex. But my husband is still doing therapy. He sees 40+ patients a week (most therapists see 25) and is booked out for six weeks (which is amazing in this economy). It's like that because he gets results.

[zdo 20]

These have been busy days and nights so I have simply not been able to participate in (or hardly even look at )a thread I started as much as I normally would.

 

re:

Dear Zdo: I'm still here.

I’m glad you’re still here, girl. If and when you leave, will you please tell us why?

 

re:

Did you have something you wanted help with?

I wonder what percentage of browsers projected the op as an indirect cry for help. Of the responses before yours, 3 did and looks like you did too. Only 2 took the question at face value.

 

re:

It seems like you have a rather negative opinion of psychologists.”

This is off topic because my opinion of ‘psychologists’ isn’t really relevant to the question.

I am admiring your candor in another thread “Look for a psychologist ... – there are a few good ones out there.”. But my opinions, (garnered from both living in one of the most ‘therapist rich’ metropolitan areas on the planet and in areas where they are more typically represented) are not so much about the quality of therapists statistically but about the vary small odds of getting matched up with someone who can go the distance. And, in my opinion, those small odds plummet to virtually no odds of a trader getting matched up appropriately.

 

re

Let's talk about your questions: …

"Fourth, "They are ‘wounded healers’ and once they work through their own issue(s), they just don’t need to help anymore ??

This one made me laugh

All four of those 'guesses' were intended to get at least a grin...

 

re

Fifth, "Thoughts ?" Yes, I do have some thoughts. Most people who post on the psychology of trading threads seem to think that the answer to all psychological issues is to 'get some discipline'. Most can't articulate how to do that, nor are they aware of how they did it. They make no allowance for individual psychological makeup and how that might effect someone's efforts to become a successful trader. The basic advice that traders give each other is some version of "just suck it up and do it". I wish that worked. Trading would be much simpler and we wouldn't need to discuss trading psychology.

Thanks. Check some of my posts - you’ll find that I’m a serial ‘it ain’t discipline’ poster.

Maybe we can get into this some in another thread…

 

I started the thread to add to my serious and silly list of reasons ‘they’ (the ‘helpers’ – announced trading doctors, psychologists, coaches, and lay advisors) just vanish from forums without goodbyes.

I know the forum medium itself is an obstacle…. And while the clients may be “motivated” , that doesn’t mean traders are good therapand (horrid emergent terminology…).

Those two reasons, for me, answer why a large percentage of ‘them’ leave. But I still have curiosity about more reasons related to ‘their’ own dynamics and experiences, etc. that trigger them to just fade away the way they do. Thanks for any and all answers to that.

 

All the best,

 

zdo