What Psychologists ?

[steve46 12]

Hello

 

I had the opportunity to work with Dr. Ari Kiev early in my career. Now that the gentleman has died (in 2009) I think I can offer a short comment about my experience.

 

I noticed that Dr. Kiev exhibited competence and mature judgement. What I mean by that is...that when asked a question, the answer I recieved was short, direct, and focused on my needs. I always came away from our meetings feeling that my goals were within reach as long as I was willing to do the work. In contrast, it seems to me that if a "professional" has to employ elaborate jargon to explain our emotional lives, he or she probably doesn't really know what they are talking about....and I would suggest looking elsewhere for assistance.

 

Finally I believe that traders need to learn about adult responsibility....specifically about "taking responsibility" for the results you achieve (or fail to achieve) in this life. I noticed that once I learned this lesson my personal and professional life improved significantly...

 

I hope this helps

Edited March 3, 2011 by steve46

[n00btrader 10]

Finally I believe that traders need to learn about adult responsibility....specifically about "taking responsibility" for the results you achieve (or fail to achieve) in this life. I noticed that once I learned this lesson my personal and professional life improved significantly...I hope this helps

 

Hi Steve,

 

Could you please share your experience of how you learned this lesson and the process you went through to accomplish it? As well as any advice for people who struggle with this.

[steve46 12]

Well, from my point of view, the first part of your question is personal, and without being impolite I have to remind you that we don't know each other, so I prefer maintain my privacy on that subject.

 

As regards advice, I guess I would point out that one of the roles a mental health professional takes on, is to model or demonstrate "adult" behavior. In my own way, by declining to share something from my personal life, I am demonstrating how an adult maintains their personal boundaries. Its just one of many "lessons" that you learn along the way.

 

I will tell you this...if you read Jack Schwager's books about "Market Wizards", one thing you may notice is that he interviews people who have made fortunes in a variety of ways. Clearly success in the financial markets doesn't require a specific method, indicator, or algorithm. What DOES seem to matter is skill, intelligence, perseverence, focus, and yes...the ability to act like a responsible adult in the face of significant pressure on an almost daily basis. I think the challenge is to find a skilled advisor (mental health, trading, whatever) who will look you in the eye and tell you the unvarnished truth....and then the rest is up to you...

 

Good luck

Edited March 5, 2011 by steve46

[davidjohnhall 10]

I don't know if the best question is "Where have the psychologists gone?" A better question might be "What does it mean when the psychologists are here?". :-) They might actually be an indicator. Like everything else in the market -- I bet they're cyclical.

 

I've been to a psychologists. Non trading related. They help you understand and accept you in relation to the human experience. Nothing more. I went to a therapist and said "My mother died when I was 20". The therapist said "How do you feel about that?" It took me about a year to understand how I felt about that -- and about 5 more years to accept how I feel about that.

 

A good therapist will help you understand in some very creative ways. If you feel "I suck at trading" they will help you understand why you feel that way. Once you shed a light in a dark room it becomes less frightening.

 

Your mileage may vary. :-)

 

David John Hall

[Ingot54 13]

IMHO

We disagree. But I am not wrong. We are constantly creating the conditions of our experience in trading. Our belliefs, living as dialog in our mind, create the world we see. This is what you trade. Anything else is a fabication. If your trading account is growing, then in, black and white, can assess your compentency in the current organziation of the self that you are trading.

 

Your response puzzles me: "We disagree. But I am not wrong."

 

Such a response tends to close off dialogue, and alienates those who might perceive it as a touch of arrogance. There are areas in life that are NOT black and white - and belief systems is one such area.

 

People can acknowledge the reality of their situation, or they can behave like Pollyanna. But there is no escaping reality. The "evidence of competency" to you, is ascribed as a growing account. The converse is not necessarily true - it is quite likely that the failure of an account to grow could also be evidence of inexperience. I do not see it as somehow being a bizarre derangement of a "self" that I am living out, and which manifests as a failure to grow my account.

 

Frankly I find the concept completely academic, of dubious usefulness and little practical application in healing the ailments of struggling traders. It might fluff out the contents of a speech, a course, a conversation, but where the rubber of the mind truly makes contact with the bitumen of the trading world, is in the determination of the trader (the "self") to apply the lessons learned.

 

I am NOT creating the conditions of my failure, but I am certainly creating the conditions (knowledge, commitment, discipline, strategy) that ensures my success. There is nothing pathological ... nothing healed ... just common-garden hard work and application of my ability to the problem.

 

I can tell you that if you think that your success came simply from switching from thinking like a loser to thinking like a winner (mindset) then you have a very short memory. I would class my current success rate as transitional, with a bias towards more profit than loss. I can stand in these halls and categorically state that my thoughts of being a winner or a loser do not enter into the equation ... even remotely.

 

My personal thoughts are those of a person filled with gratitude that I have made a great discovery - that of getting real with my trades - nothing more or less. I faithfully apply my strategy, and I reap the rewards. Other things are disciplinary issues, of which I have spoken at length on other threads.

 

My observation is that few people are so currently orangized as to trade well. Cutting out all the BS lies the simple fact, are you profitable or are you seeking? Your beliefs trade. Most of the traders I work with have been trading for a good time and still sabotage themselves. If practice were the answer, then simulated trading would be a good indicator or success. It's not. Re-organzing the self to produce a competent trader is .

Rande

 

You tend to complicate the simple, and pigeon-hole things that should not be confined.

 

It is not a matter of slotting traders into two camps ... "profitable or seeking". In fact, all traders are continually seeking - it is the point of Maslow's hypothesis, that humans will continue to strive for higher actualisation - self-actualisation first, then the actualisation of others reached through transcendency.

 

How is it shown that "Your beliefs trade"? In my experience, if "my beliefs trade" I would have been profitable much earlier. Now that I have been enlightened to what my true barriers were, I see that I was simply ignorant of being adequately organised in my approach to trading, and I lacked an edge. Nothing more than that. These problems I solved all by myself, without the "fabrication of my beliefs creating dialog in my mind that do the trading".

 

Can't you see how utterly ridiculous such a concept is? It seems you are very far removed from my reality in your own world. I would say to you to please reexamine your approach. If it can be shown that an "un-psyched" trader like myself can solve my own problems without examining whether my mental dialogue is fabricating a negative trade, then I suggest your approach is not as black-and-white as you suggest. Might it not be possible that you are introducing complications to the procedure that are not only unnecessary, but fabricated themselves?

 

I suggested you are complicating something quite simple, unnecessarily.

 

Like Homer Simpson, who suggested "Alcohol is the cause of, and the solution to, life's problems" you are complicating trading so that any trading problems become psychological ones, and then, along came James ... with ... lo! and behold! ... the solution!

 

Rande - you would do quite a lot towards decathexis of this situation if you were to give some anecdotal evidence of your own trading experiences.

 

Are you profitable?

Are you self-sabotaging?

Is your mind constantly creating the conditions of your experience in trading?

Is YOUR trading account growing?

Is the current organisation of your "self" competent?

Are you profitable, or are you seeking?

Are you trading a reality - a mind dialogue - or a fabrication?

 

Few people ARE indeed organised to 'trade well" ... are you?

 

I am genuinely interested in how your own trading is going.

 

If you are "not wrong" then I expect your trading account will be immense, and your success rate much nearer to 100% than 50%.

 

Those that can trade ... trade.

Those that can't trade ... teach ... psychoanalyse ... sell support services.

 

Of course - if you are not a trader, then your credibility is nearer zero than hero, unfortunately - only a successful trader should be attempting to "heal" the unsuccessful. Of course, if you are like the rest of us - still learning, then that piece of humble pie is already cooked and sliced for you. You too can be wrong.

 

Rande I will desist from attempting to hold you to account because frankly it is beginning to look like I am trolling, when in fact I am interested in only the truth. I hope others continue to make you accountable for your high-brow statements and look for the evidence that should also be accompanying the theory.

 

If you want to reach people with your 'therapy" you will need to begin to provide tangible evidence of the truth of your theories.

[Rande Howell 10]

Ingot54

 

You're is a long post. First, by the standard you assess by, I have zero credibility. I do not trade and don't care to trade. Traders are no different in their psychological make up than anyone one else. Their way of interpreting the world is still opening and closing the possibilities they see and act in. In psychology, you look for what blocks the development of potential. It is always belief system, assuming methodology gives the edge, that trades. This is called perceptual map. I don't play tennis, but I work with mind of a tennis player. I don't play golf, but do the same. People keep paying me because they see results.

 

I encourage you to check things out. Decide from there.

 

Rande Howell

[Ingot54 13]

Ingot54

 

You're is a long post. First, by the standard you assess by, I have zero credibility. I do not trade and don't care to trade. Traders are no different in their psychological make up than anyone one else. Their way of interpreting the world is still opening and closing the possibilities they see and act in. In psychology, you look for what blocks the development of potential. It is always belief system, assuming methodology gives the edge, that trades. This is called perceptual map. I don't play tennis, but I work with mind of a tennis player. I don't play golf, but do the same. People keep paying me because they see results.

 

I encourage you to check things out. Decide from there.

 

Rande Howell

 

I encourage you to do some trades, Rande.

Even on a free demo account.

Get into it - experience first hand the issues faced by traders.

Feel the pain of a loss that can not be overcome by 'thinking like a winner.'

Watch your account burn as you struggle to come to terms with the technical issues.

Deal with the pressures that real traders deal with - that would be REALITY.

Listen to the "dialogue of your mind" and see if what you are telling others works for you.

See if you are trading your beliefs, or as you put it, a fabrication.

See if you can grow your account, which, as you said, is a measure of your competency.

Tell us if the "organisation of the self" is truly the key to successful trading.

Find out if you too, "self-sabotage" and see then if "reorganising the self" is truly the answer.

 

Maybe then some lights will come on ... you will reassess your arrogant remark "I am not wrong" - a ludicrous statement from someone who admits: " I do not trade and don't care to trade."

 

It is possible you will begin to think like a real trader, and be able to work much better with real traders. You will begin to understand why so many traders "out here" in the real world, living the reality of dealing with real money, are seeing the Psychological support industry as so much BS.

 

Then come back with your theories about 50 million year old limbic systems getting in the way.

 

Only then will you truly have an insiders perception of the trading pathology you purport to have the answers to.

 

You will also discover that trading is NOT the same as tennis or golf at all.

You will discover that the issues that confront traders are unique to trading.

 

You know, many Hollywood actors/actresses have actually gone out and lived in the role they were assigned to play, for periods of 3 to 6 months - some even longer. They were then able to bring living pathos to the role (Tom Hanks, Nicole Kidman, Russell Crowe, Dustin Hoffman and many others).

 

You mention a perceptual map. I believe in the concept of perceptual mapping, but I want the cartographer to understand in his deepest gut, exactly what it is he is attempting to string together in that map.

 

I liken it to a sewing teacher trying to help a vascular surgeon who is having difficulties with cardiac bypass surgery. It doesn't work.

 

But once the sewing teacher gets trained as a surgeon, only then can it be seen where the surgeon's problem is, and a remedy found efficiently.

 

Maybe instead of expecting the trader to come to you, you should meet the trader on his own terms - at the coalface, where the shovel hits the dirt.

 

Rande - I believe you are genuinely trying to do something for traders, and I think you have a lot to offer. You are committed to your vocation and have a depth of compassion which I regard as one of the top qualities required by caring human beings.

 

When I suggest that you roll up your sleeves and experience some demo or better still, live trading, it is in the interests of you, truth, and the support industry itself.

 

Can you imagine the impact you would have on this industry if you were able to say that you have gone out and put into practice the things you currently know only in theory?

 

How quickly would the BS be sorted out from the precious gems of your material? And how quickly would you drop your academic language, and speak the common language of the trader. Your next book would be a #1 best Seller, because you would be writing from the heart and the gut, not the ethereal world of academia.

 

In my profession I did years of training before I became an independent practitioner. I am still training/learning even in the twilight years of it, after two similar careers spanning 44 years. I have been a lecturer/teacher in my profession.

 

It is only because I have been able to walk the walk that I was then able to talk the talk. My words are of instant practical use, because they are not theory - they are BASED on theory, but steeped in 4+ decades of practice and experience.

 

What you ultimately do is up to you, of course. It is not for an unknown like myself to be suggesting how you should run your business. I find that the longer I am engaged in my profession, the more quickly I eat humble pie, and I realise my knowledge is piddling when I think of those who went before me. There is no room for my ego, or indeed, professional arrogance.

 

That's why I become so irritated when I see it in others - those on the periphery who really have no idea what they are talking about, because they have never gotten into the workings of the subject.

 

In my estimation (which counts little) you would go from zero to hero in one leap.

 

"I encourage you to check things out. Decide from there."

[Rande Howell 10]

I encourage you to do some trades, Rande.

Even on a free demo account.

Get into it - experience first hand the issues faced by traders.

Feel the pain of a loss that can not be overcome by 'thinking like a winner.'

Watch your account burn as you struggle to come to terms with the technical issues.

Deal with the pressures that real traders deal with - that would be REALITY.

Listen to the "dialogue of your mind" and see if what you are telling others works for you.

See if you are trading your beliefs, or as you put it, a fabrication.

See if you can grow your account, which, as you said, is a measure of your competency.

Tell us if the "organisation of the self" is truly the key to successful trading.

Find out if you too, "self-sabotage" and see then if "reorganising the self" is truly the answer.

 

Maybe then some lights will come on ... you will reassess your arrogant remark "I am not wrong" - a ludicrous statement from someone who admits: " I do not trade and don't care to trade."

 

It is possible you will begin to think like a real trader, and be able to work much better with real traders. You will begin to understand why so many traders "out here" in the real world, living the reality of dealing with real money, are seeing the Psychological support industry as so much BS.

 

Then come back with your theories about 50 million year old limbic systems getting in the way.

 

Only then will you truly have an insiders perception of the trading pathology you purport to have the answers to.

 

You will also discover that trading is NOT the same as tennis or golf at all.

You will discover that the issues that confront traders are unique to trading.

 

You know, many Hollywood actors/actresses have actually gone out and lived in the role they were assigned to play, for periods of 3 to 6 months - some even longer. They were then able to bring living pathos to the role (Tom Hanks, Nicole Kidman, Russell Crowe, Dustin Hoffman and many others).

 

You mention a perceptual map. I believe in the concept of perceptual mapping, but I want the cartographer to understand in his deepest gut, exactly what it is he is attempting to string together in that map.

 

I liken it to a sewing teacher trying to help a vascular surgeon who is having difficulties with cardiac bypass surgery. It doesn't work.

 

But once the sewing teacher gets trained as a surgeon, only then can it be seen where the surgeon's problem is, and a remedy found efficiently.

 

Maybe instead of expecting the trader to come to you, you should meet the trader on his own terms - at the coalface, where the shovel hits the dirt.

 

Rande - I believe you are genuinely trying to do something for traders, and I think you have a lot to offer. You are committed to your vocation and have a depth of compassion which I regard as one of the top qualities required by caring human beings.

 

When I suggest that you roll up your sleeves and experience some demo or better still, live trading, it is in the interests of you, truth, and the support industry itself.

 

Can you imagine the impact you would have on this industry if you were able to say that you have gone out and put into practice the things you currently know only in theory?

 

How quickly would the BS be sorted out from the precious gems of your material? And how quickly would you drop your academic language, and speak the common language of the trader. Your next book would be a #1 best Seller, because you would be writing from the heart and the gut, not the ethereal world of academia.

 

In my profession I did years of training before I became an independent practitioner. I am still training/learning even in the twilight years of it, after two similar careers spanning 44 years. I have been a lecturer/teacher in my profession.

 

It is only because I have been able to walk the walk that I was then able to talk the talk. My words are of instant practical use, because they are not theory - they are BASED on theory, but steeped in 4+ decades of practice and experience.

 

What you ultimately do is up to you, of course. It is not for an unknown like myself to be suggesting how you should run your business. I find that the longer I am engaged in my profession, the more quickly I eat humble pie, and I realise my knowledge is piddling when I think of those who went before me. There is no room for my ego, or indeed, professional arrogance.

 

That's why I become so irritated when I see it in others - those on the periphery who really have no idea what they are talking about, because they have never gotten into the workings of the subject.

 

In my estimation (which counts little) you would go from zero to hero in one leap.

 

"I encourage you to check things out. Decide from there."

 

Duly noted. At the bottom is the basic assumption I hold about the invention of one's life. That you follow your passion. That is what I'm doing. When I, other others don't follow what they are passionate about, trouble follows. In Jungian terms this is called Lover. It is that passion that sustains you on your journey. Without the passion, you are not really willing to change to become the person you need to be in a certain domain. My passion is in helping people moving beyond the roadblocks in the evolution of their potential. Learning to manage fear, then our biases that blind our perception, are skills sets that apply to any domain of action. Trading is no different. There are specific psychological skills sets that need to be learned. It is not rocket science. What I teach has proven effective for performance over a range of domains of action. For instance, in physical sports high levels of emotional arousal are useful to get keyed up and a build a game face. American Football is a good example of this. If you were to take the same strategy to chess (or trading), it would produce the probability of failure. Why? The more cognition over physical effort required, the less arousal is part of peak performance. Chess and trading require low arousal states because of the need of thinking. The more the excitory process of arousal, the less you are able to maintain a deliberate, impartial state of mind. It is the skills that have to be built specifically for performance. You don't have to trade to figure that out. You do need to be able to observe, then manage, performance and state of mind though. Which is something that most traders have difficulty with. It so happens, I teach these very skills. I don't need to know trading methodology. I need to know how to work with the emotions and states of mind that trading requires. Very different.

 

Rande Howell

[johnw 10]

I have read that Traders should stick to their Trading Plan and at all times keep an open mind to the ever changing state of the markets.

 

I would be interested to know, how do you reconcile these two contrary states of mind.

[davidjohnhall 10]

I have read that Traders should stick to their Trading Plan and at all times keep an open mind to the ever changing state of the markets.

 

I would be interested to know, how do you reconcile these two contrary states of mind.

 

Hi John,

 

I'm not sure how anyone else views this topic, but for me: The more things change, the more they stay the same. For the most part, I am trading my own psychology, because that's the only one I can know. Where the personal becomes the universal.

 

I have been on a kick the last few years of reading trading books from other decades...30's through today...and things never change. And when I say never, I mean NEVER. Well, maybe indicators, but most of them don't work anyway. LOL

 

In all of those past years they were still talking about cutting losses, letting winners run, managing greed and fear, following the trend, the importance of contrary thinking...and the list goes on.

 

And when I pull up charts from the 20's through today, I also don't see anything different. Cycles come and go, bull markets, bear markets, flat markets.

 

So I stick to my plan and don't worry about anyone who says the market is "different this time", because every time I've heard that in the time that I've been trading (in 2007-8 at the top and 2009 at the bottom) the market was supposed to be different this time and it wasn't. In 2007 it was supposed to keep going up, and 2009 it was supposed to keep going down.

 

So I just keep learning about myself and keep reading those books. Here's a list of Rules from 1890:

 

1. Don't over trade.

2. Never average down.

3. Cut losses short and let winners run.

4. Never follow the herd

5. Know the role that luck plays

6. When in doubt, stay out

7. Buy strength, sell weakness

 

In book after book it's the same. To me that says a lot.

 

David John Hall

[johnw 10]

Hi John,

 

I'm not sure how anyone else views this topic, but for me: The more things change, the more they stay the same. For the most part, I am trading my own psychology, because that's the only one I can know. Where the personal becomes the universal.

..................................................

 

In book after book it's the same. To me that says a lot.

 

David John Hall

 

Interesting point of view "Nothing changes"

[Ingot54 13]

Duly noted. At the bottom is the basic assumption I hold about the invention of one's life. That you follow your passion. That is what I'm doing. When I, other others don't follow what they are passionate about, trouble follows. In Jungian terms this is called Lover. It is that passion that sustains you on your journey. Without the passion, you are not really willing to change to become the person you need to be in a certain domain. My passion is in helping people moving beyond the roadblocks in the evolution of their potential. Learning to manage fear, then our biases that blind our perception, are skills sets that apply to any domain of action. Trading is no different. There are specific psychological skills sets that need to be learned. It is not rocket science. What I teach has proven effective for performance over a range of domains of action. For instance, in physical sports high levels of emotional arousal are useful to get keyed up and a build a game face. American Football is a good example of this. If you were to take the same strategy to chess (or trading), it would produce the probability of failure. Why? The more cognition over physical effort required, the less arousal is part of peak performance. Chess and trading require low arousal states because of the need of thinking. The more the excitory process of arousal, the less you are able to maintain a deliberate, impartial state of mind. It is the skills that have to be built specifically for performance. You don't have to trade to figure that out. You do need to be able to observe, then manage, performance and state of mind though. Which is something that most traders have difficulty with. It so happens, I teach these very skills. I don't need to know trading methodology. I need to know how to work with the emotions and states of mind that trading requires. Very different.

 

Rande Howell

 

Rande - This is probably the best response I have seen from you - at least your words are beginning to be meaningful to my understanding.

 

We are still coming at the problems of finding success in trading from different directions, but from your response, I can accept that there are more than one solution to solving a problem. And I also readily accept your compassion, and determination to apply your years of study and understanding of academic concepts, towards solving the complex issues some traders have, in overcoming seemingly insurmountable trading negatives.

 

For myself - because I solved my own problems from an entirely practical (as opposed to theoretical) base, I find it very easy to be adamant that what I did should be able to be applied to most, if not all traders with problems. I needn't repeat ad nauseum what that was - I am sure readers are becoming heartily sick of my rants.

 

However, I think we shall agree to disagree on the value of a Therapeutic approach based on psychology, versus an approach based on preparing one's self correctly for a lifetime of trading - eg learning the TA, developing an edge, executing a plan, focusing on a strategy, and committing to a consistent cycle of reviewing-planning-implementing-evaluating-reviewing-planning-implementing evaluating.

 

It works - and it doesn't take long, and it doesn't cost anything.

 

Thank you for your response, Rande - it has been most meaningful.

 

Maybe some traders need your kind of intervention - I do not know - all I do know is what has worked for me, and I am excited by the breakthrough.

[davidjohnhall 10]

Interesting point of view "Nothing changes"

 

All we need to do is pull up a chart from the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's etc. and compare them with a chart from the 2000's. Or look at a chart of the tulip bubble mania in the 1700's. Transaction costs may have gotten smaller, computer's may have been introduced, indicators may have been designed by the bucketload, but charts look the same as ever.

 

This gives me great comfort and confidence. I don't have to worry about trading in some sort of shifting quicksand that switches and changes all the time. I am trading human nature (mostly mine) and that always seems to stay the same.

 

For a perfect visual example, take a look at these two charts. First, Texas instruments in 1957 -- one of Nicholas Darvas' famed trades:

 

 

Now, Texas Instruments nearly 40 years later pretty much to the day in 1997:

 

 

I don't know how anyone else feels about those charts -- but I think they're great. If you were trading in 1957 you would be trading just as you would be in 1997 -- except your commissions were $100 per round turn back then (I think).

 

But a breakout would still be a breakout. You would still have to let your profits run. If that trade had failed you would still have to cut your losses short. You would still need an exit strategy and a money management strategy and a trade management strategy.

 

Darvas used his Darvas boxes. That's how he managed his trade, yes, but more importantly, that's how he managed himself. As long as the trade was making higher boxes, he was staying in. This is how he managed his fear, his boredom, his greed, etc.

 

And if he was trading in 1997, or 2007 or any other 7 he would have to still do the same things.

 

I think it's fantastic.

 

David John Hall

[Mysticforex 13]

For me I've never really found a way to channel emotions in trading in a positive way.

 

What do I do? I let the emotions of just feeling good about getting back positive and I quit there. My rules though said objective not hit yet but my emotions said stop, good job. Next trade hits full target. With me on the sidelines. Emotions took over.

 

MMS

 

Agree. When I "Feel positive it usually means I am getting over confident.

[Mysticforex 13]

Rande - This is probably the best response I have seen from you - at least your words are beginning to be meaningful to my understanding.

 

Maybe some traders need your kind of intervention - I do not know - all I do know is what has worked for me, and I am excited by the breakthrough.

 

 

Very interesting thread!

Ingot, I am sure there are a lot of traders who could benefit from a little insight.

Problem is, the ones who need it most ( losing money ) can least justify the expense.

As for your suggestion that Rande trade a DEMO Acct, we all know that trading demo does not come close to the emotional level of trading real money.

 

Rande has earned his LPC, so it's probaby safe to say that he has paid his dues.

 

I am pasting from Wekipedia only part of what's involved in obtaing an LPC:

 

 

LPC (or variation, i.e. LCPC, LMHC, etc.) licensure is recognized in 50 states in the United States, as well as the District of Columbia, Guam, and Puerto Rico.[1] The requirements vary from one jurisdiction to the next. Please review the National Board for Certified Counselors website for your state or jurisdiction's information:[2]

 

Included below is a summary of requirements found in the state of Texas LPC board as an example.[3] (Your state or jurisdiction's website will look different)

 

"A master's degree or doctoral degree in counseling or a related field.

 

1. Academic course work in each of the following areas: normal human growth and development; abnormal human behavior; appraisal or assessment techniques; counseling theories; counseling methods or techniques (individual and group); research; lifestyle and career development; social, cultural and family issues; and professional orientation.

2. As part of the graduate program, a supervised practicum experience that is primarily counseling in nature. The practicum should be at least 300 clock-hours with at least 100 clock-hours of direct client contact. Academic credit for the practicum must appear on the applicant's transcript.

3. After completion of the graduate degree and before application, an applicant must take and pass the National Counselor Exam and the Texas Jurisprudence Exam. After receiving a temporary LPC license from the board, the applicant may begin the supervised post-graduate counseling experience (internship). 3000 clock-hours with at least 1,500 being direct client contact of internship under the supervision of a board-approved supervisor is required. The 3000 clock-hours may not be completed in a time period of less than 18 months."

 

Clock hours and contact hours with clients needed to obtain licensure vary by state. Other states, Oklahoma for example, require a 60-hour degree (versus the traditional 48-hour degree), and mandate at least 300 hours of internship prior to graduation OK Dept of Health

 

The model of the LPC is based upon the United States model for the regulation of professions. Each state is granted the privilege to regulate whom may practice a particular profession and what the rights and responsibilities associated with that profession are. In most other countries, the Ministry of Education provides the authority to universities to grant licensure or a licenciatura upon completion of university studies. In these European-based regulation models, a license is granted for perpetuity and does not require renewal as is typical in the United States.

[Rande Howell 10]

Rande - This is probably the best response I have seen from you - at least your words are beginning to be meaningful to my understanding.

 

We are still coming at the problems of finding success in trading from different directions, but from your response, I can accept that there are more than one solution to solving a problem. And I also readily accept your compassion, and determination to apply your years of study and understanding of academic concepts, towards solving the complex issues some traders have, in overcoming seemingly insurmountable trading negatives.

 

For myself - because I solved my own problems from an entirely practical (as opposed to theoretical) base, I find it very easy to be adamant that what I did should be able to be applied to most, if not all traders with problems. I needn't repeat ad nauseum what that was - I am sure readers are becoming heartily sick of my rants.

 

However, I think we shall agree to disagree on the value of a Therapeutic approach based on psychology, versus an approach based on preparing one's self correctly for a lifetime of trading - eg learning the TA, developing an edge, executing a plan, focusing on a strategy, and committing to a consistent cycle of reviewing-planning-implementing-evaluating-reviewing-planning-implementing evaluating.

 

It works - and it doesn't take long, and it doesn't cost anything.

 

Thank you for your response, Rande - it has been most meaningful.

 

Maybe some traders need your kind of intervention - I do not know - all I do know is what has worked for me, and I am excited by the breakthrough.

 

I'm happy for you that you have built a psychological methodology that allows you to trade your edge. That's the goal, no matter what direction you come from. My work involves a degree of therapuetic intervention, but a whole bunch more development of potential. First, you gotta regulate fear and separate it from uncertainty -- or you just can't trade successfully. When I first started working with personal development, I thought was I getting out of mental health. Needless to say, I was wrong. Anger, fear, and impulse were the same in both domains. Part of this stuff is academic, but most of it is applied to the trenches of our every day struggles. When seized by the alure of financial freedom and personal freedom promised by trading, many people walk into a trap that they are ill prepared for. After that deception falls away, traders wake up to the reality that they must love the game. Because the game of trading is going to require massive changes in the way they believe and perceive the world. It is this place that I have compassion for.

 

By the way, I find these forums an excellent way of keeping my own emotional regulation skills up to speed. There are many invitations for triggering emotionally. I was beginning to miss the challenge of maintaining emotional soberiety.

 

Rande Howell

[Mysticforex 13]

 

By the way, I find these forums an excellent way of keeping my own emotional regulation skills up to speed. There are many invitations for triggering emotionally. I was beginning to miss the challenge of maintaining emotional soberiety.

 

Rande Howell

 

That's good. I have to remember that and use it on my wife, she's a Psychiatrist.

[davidjohnhall 10]

I think a lot of the emotions surrounding trading (fear, greed, over-confidance, depression, etc.) come from what we think we are going to have when we obtain this vague amount of "money" we're striving for. Instead of mastering the trade it becomes about: this trade is moving me closer to my fantasy life (OMG I'm so excited, I'm a rockstar, I'm a hero, I'm a winner, I'm a God, finally life is going to be EASY!) -- to this trade is moving me away from my fantasy life (Damn, I'm so depressed, I'm such a loser, I'm worthless, I'm a coward, etc.).

 

Do we think this way when we go to our day jobs? Maybe. I don't know. Maybe trading is the promise of not feeling that way ever again. But that feeling has got nothing to do with money -- in my opinion.

 

Trading offers us all the possibility of financial freedom. Yes. But so do many other professions. Lawyers, doctors, plumbers (yes, I know 2 millionaire plumbers), business owners, almost anything you can think of.

 

Money, in the case of trading, is nothing more than the raw material we have to work with to master the craft. We have charts, indicators, systems, and capital. Unfortunately, there is so much emotion surrounding money. But the emotions have nothing to do with the money itself. It's not even what we think we're going to buy with the money. It's who we think we are going to be.

 

I did an exercise once regarding money. Played a fantasy game where I plotted out a perfect fantasy life where I had all the money I could ever want...and visualized it down to the tiniest detail...then asked myself how I felt...what was the overriding emotion I was feeling as uber wealthy me.

 

The overwhelming feeling was "relaxed"... LOL I knew right then and there that a luxury for me was associated with relaxing. Relaxing. That's it. I don't need a gazillion dollars to relax. I just need to relax...and enjoy it. So that's what I started doing...relaxing. And a lot got better.

 

This feeling that's "out there" doesn't really exist (in my opinion). Think of an area of your life where you have abundance. I don't care if it's "I have more tube socks than I know what to do with". Do you walk around feeling amazing about it all the time? No. It's just the way it is. Right now, you probably have a television that costs more than a years wages in some countries. Do you wake up feeling amazed by that fact? I bet you don't. The same would happen with wealth after awhile. You're not going to be "super you" you're just going to be you. The real joy of trading comes from trading right...and learning what that it. Learning how to do it. Learning how to take a loss and move on. Learning how to pull the trigger and flow with the market. Learning how to backtest and what the results mean. Learning how to read charts and form conclusions.

 

This idea really helped me relax when it came to trading, relax. My perfect life wasn't moving closer or further away. My perfect life was available any time I wanted it. Trading is just a game I've chosen to challenge myself and to apply my mental abilities.

 

David John Hall

[johnw 10]

Agree. When I "Feel positive it usually means I am getting over confident.

 

Golly, that must be confusing for you.

[Rande Howell 10]

That's good. I have to remember that and use it on my wife, she's a Psychiatrist.

 

Unfortunately psychiatrist gives you 15 minutes and then medicates the feeling of the emotion. Not much help long term, but great for drug companies. Taking charge of the brain's pharmacy creates a very different way of dealing with emotional triggers.

 

Rande Howell

[PiptopiaX 10]

Unfortunately psychiatrist gives you 15 minutes and then medicates the feeling of the emotion. Not much help long term, but great for drug companies. Taking charge of the brain's pharmacy creates a very different way of dealing with emotional triggers.

 

Rande Howell

 

I think psychiatrists treat mental illness, they are not behaviorists. Last time I checked drug therapy is still required for treating psychosis and bi-polar disorder.

[steve46 12]

Unfortunately psychiatrist gives you 15 minutes and then medicates the feeling of the emotion. Not much help long term, but great for drug companies. Taking charge of the brain's pharmacy creates a very different way of dealing with emotional triggers.

 

Rande Howell

 

Well Sir or Madam

 

I have to wonder if this really represents your best understanding of what Psychiatry is about?

 

The first six words are technically correct, and then the rest of it seems to be your bias and half truths....I don't think Psychiatrists need me to defend them, so I will simply move on as I dont see the value in continuing along these lines.

 

Good luck to everyone in the markets

Steve

[Rande Howell 10]

I think psychiatrists treat mental illness, they are not behaviorists. Last time I checked drug therapy is still required for treating psychosis and bi-polar disorder.

 

They are very useful in the treatment of certain illnesses. Being that I have been working with Bi-Polars for 20 years, I have great affection for medication in these areas. I also know that there is tremendous over prescription of medication that really needs emotional regulation and a motivation on the side of the client to manage emotional state. , When you have helped wean yet another person off SSRI's, a pattern emerges.

 

Rande Howell

[SIUYA 11]

I am many others in our office self medicate with alcohol - our bartender is the local psychiatrist, and she looks good too. Unfortunately she has never asked me -- and how does that make you feel?

[Rande Howell 10]

I am many others in our office self medicate with alcohol - our bartender is the local psychiatrist, and she looks good too. Unfortunately she has never asked me -- and how does that make you feel?

 

Seriously. I don't want to sound like I am against psychiatrists. I've worked with them for many years and am grateful for their participation in the management of emotional subriety of certain populations of clients, including traders, who for one reason or another are not able to manage emotional state without outside help. The problem for me is that their emphasis has shifted from the noble efforts that brought forth the entire psychological movement into being (Freud was a neurologist). Unfortunately the direction of their profession under managed care became medical stabalization of presenting conditions rather than cure of the problem that creates the symptoms. That's a seismic shift in the intent. In today's medical model, you would more likely get a "How do you feel?" out of your bartender than the typical psychiatrist.

 

Alcohol is certainly one drug that can be used to regulate emotional state and pain in the short term -- and it has a bad history when it is used as a way to medicate emotional state long term. Facing psychological discomfort is a must reality for traders. Smoking and alchohol is a slow ride down and the person can deceive themselves because of the lack of speed in regular life and jobs. In trading the slow ride becomes a fast ride. Getting through self limiting beliefs and into empowering beliefs is the engine of progress in trading.

 

Rande Howell