Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

Soultrader

How Important is Intuition in Your Trading?

Recommended Posts

How Important is Intuition in Your Trading?

I definitely rely alot on intuition based on global market information, market reaction to earnings/news, and then determining the potential of a trade at a S&R level. As a result my style is shifted heavily towards the discretionary side which lacks any type of systematic approach. I do not have concreate rules at all except risk management. Perhaps my style has transformed this way due to my lack of progamming skills or perhaps by being around and learning from discretionary traders. We often phrase the markets in such ways like, "Market smells funny", "Market feels ready for a bounce", "Markets smell like fear", etc...

 

The topic here is how much intuition do you use in your trading? What are the factors that you consider part of your intuition? Is there an edge for intuitive traders vs systematic traders? Are intuitive traders more flexible in adjusting with the markets? I often view my trading as "free style trading". Very quick to change my mind, and S&R levels are often dynamic adjusting levels throughout the day and night. If I was told to write a book explaining my methodology, I probably could not at this point in my career.

 

Lets get this discussion rolling :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I learned a long time ago James that my intuition was most definitely not the way for me to trade... In order to eliminate those 'feelings' I must trade w/in a rule set.

 

For those that have it though, that's a great weapon in your arsenal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im actually on the exact opposite side of brownsfan. Having strict rules was okay for execution but psychologically it was damaging for me. I was too attached to my trades which resulted in cheating and moving my stops. Also I could not bear the frustration of missing a move when my signals did not fire but felt intuitively the markets may move.

 

Rule following also seems to be a direct conflict between who I am as a person. As a result intuitive trading works for me as long as strict risk management is in place. I also do not want ppl reading this to misinterpret intuitive with impulsive. Having a plan is vitally important... but I do often ditch the initial plan and create a new plan as the day evolves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its interesting that I am in the process of completely eliminating intuition from my daily trading.

 

Having spent 5 years watching the market and trading it in real time (HSI, SPI, STW) I realized that my intuition about the markets, my real time execution, and my attention to operational details were not my fundamental strengths. Said another way, it had become boring and I suspected that I wasn't going to get better at it.

 

So, in my inimitable style I decided on a radical change.

 

My strengths are: understanding of the market and setups, solving problems and programming. I like newness and I love problems and the satisfaction I get solving them.

 

So I am in the process of automating my trading style. My first system, Peewee, was an attempt at it and didn't quite work. I ended up with something that I didn't really like but it had a nice profit factor and even on really ugly markets stayed above 1.5 so I implemented it. I've been live on it for 2 weeks now and I'm getting kinda fond of it. While I work on Popsicle, Peewee trades HSI. Every so often TWS pipes up and says "Trade Entered" and I check to see what happened and whether it looks ok. I no longer jump each time this happens. In the first week I intuitively interfered with it about every second trade but after 3 days I realized it was better off without me so now I let it go.

 

And the damned thing makes money almost every day. I now reserve my intuition for generating ideas to test and program. Once they're implemented I just let them go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Its interesting that I am in the process of completely eliminating intuition from my daily trading.

 

Having spent 5 years watching the market and trading it in real time (HSI, SPI, STW) I realized that my intuition about the markets, my real time execution, and my attention to operational details were not my fundamental strengths. Said another way, it had become boring and I suspected that I wasn't going to get better at it.

 

So, in my inimitable style I decided on a radical change.

 

My strengths are: understanding of the market and setups, solving problems and programming. I like newness and I love problems and the satisfaction I get solving them.

 

So I am in the process of automating my trading style. My first system, Peewee, was an attempt at it and didn't quite work. I ended up with something that I didn't really like but it had a nice profit factor and even on really ugly markets stayed above 1.5 so I implemented it. I've been live on it for 2 weeks now and I'm getting kinda fond of it. While I work on Popsicle, Peewee trades HSI. Every so often TWS pipes up and says "Trade Entered" and I check to see what happened and whether it looks ok. I no longer jump each time this happens. In the first week I intuitively interfered with it about every second trade but after 3 days I realized it was better off without me so now I let it go.

 

And the damned thing makes money almost every day. I now reserve my intuition for generating ideas to test and program. Once they're implemented I just let them go.

 

Hi Kiwi, definitely something I wish I could do as well if I could program. I know in the back of my mind programming will be a requirement for trading and its a matter of me dedicating a few years to learning it.

 

I did notice you have been discussing your system frequently hence the realization I had that you had probably adjusted your trading. Quick question regarding your current execution... is your system able to place complex order types? Im actually with a buddy of mine as I write who is backtesting a few things related to the Dax and Euro Stoxx 50 but the platform he uses can only do market orders for entry. Do you know of any retail platforms available that could also implement smart order types?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How smart?

 

I currently use limit and stop-limit entries with OCO brackets to protect the order and limit adjustment to exit on trailing profit capture (rather than stops because hsi can be so thin). I think the Sierra Chart team would implement anything that we could make the case would be useful to a reasonable group of customers.

 

I'm using SC to drive Interactive Broker's TWS but it can be used with other platform. I write my systems as dlls using C++ but you can also design systems using the SC worksheet interface. Worksheets will never be quite as flexible or efficient as a dll though.

 

The most important element of this change has been that I no longer attend to the market real time and I don't feel any guilt/blame/pain when the system makes a suboptimal decision ... its just statistics in action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Kiwi, those are actually what we were looking for. OCO bracket orders and stop limits. In addition I would be interested if system trades can be made depending on the offer and bid sizes.

 

Its unfortunate IB no longer accepts Japanese citizens due to the FSA wanting locals to trade Japanese markets only. Will need to establish an offshore entity and create an account as an institution for IB. That would probably put me under the radar with the tax agency here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. You can create any combination of factors from the data available.

 

I have found three things:

 

- I can out trade my systems because my visual perception is better than my ability to code it but I can't trade 2 different strategies on 4 different markets (short time frame) at the same time.

 

- I am using more indicators simply because some of them generate a good summary that is equivalent to what I am looking for by eye (they simplify programming)

 

- People talk about systems that are adaptable and frequently mean automatic adaptation (use AR or ATR say) but markets don't change in a nice linear fashion, they move in jumps so my adaptation will consist of periodically reviewing the main variables to see if they should change because the way that market participants are acting has changed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think there are a lot more platforms besides TWS that offer OCO. Off the top of my head, the only ones that I know of are Ninja, CQG, and X Trader (you have to use some kind of plugin with X Trader though I think).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would think there are a lot more platforms besides TWS that offer OCO. Off the top of my head, the only ones that I know of are Ninja, CQG, and X Trader (you have to use some kind of plugin with X Trader though I think).

 

CQG definitely can not as I use it at the moment. Even with the Apama plugin, smart orders can not be routed. Im a bit worried about X Trader data as well as they are not direct market data vendors. Would you know where they obtain their data? Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know you know way more about CQG than I do, given that I've never even used it before, but they do say they support OCO on their website...I'm just curious now, since it's right there on their website. It also could be that we're talking about completely different things, since I don't know much about automated trading which seems to be the topic of discussion right now. I don't know what you think about Ninja, but I use OCO usually multiple times per day with Ninja on Globex, and I have no complaints about that part of the platform. Though I'm not sure what data feed you'd have access to there that would work with Ninja.

 

CQG Order Types

 

Edit: I also just noticed that CQG lists the bid/ask size trigger that you mentioned:

 

# DOM-Triggered Stop - The order is triggered when the bid/ask order size in the exchange’s order book falls below the QTS order's trigger level.

# DOM-Triggered Stop Limit - The limit order is triggered when the bid/ask order size in the exchange’s order book falls below the QTS order's trigger level.

Edited by diablo272

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I know you know way more about CQG than I do, given that I've never even used it before, but they do say they support OCO on their website...I'm just curious now, since it's right there on their website. It also could be that we're talking about completely different things, since I don't know much about automated trading which seems to be the topic of discussion right now. I don't know what you think about Ninja, but I use OCO usually multiple times per day with Ninja on Globex, and I have no complaints about that part of the platform. Though I'm not sure what data feed you'd have access to there that would work with Ninja.

 

CQG Order Types

 

Those need to be inputted manually. With automation CQG only provides market order as the order type. With the Apama plugin, additional order types can be added but after seeing a demo of it Im not convinced in paying around $1500/month for it. Regarding datafeed, CQG is also a direct market data vendor so I get my data from CQG as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont have any statistics of course, but my 'intuition' seems like its usually right the overwhelming majority of the time.

 

Anyone ever see a trade that doesn't' seem to be one of the typical obvious trades you take? Sometimes I see trades and I don't know for what reason I see it that way? It must be something subconscious I have seen before, as sometimes they don't fit some nice neat price pattern you've learned to recognize over time.

 

Putting this into something useful and something that generates fabulous returns is a different story of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I come from a strong programming background before entering the trading arena so it was natural for me to assume that system trading was going to be my forte. Anything that wasn't testable with a rigid ruleset so it could be reapplied consistently was discarded. I hammered away like this for years not finding anything consistent or acceptable within my risk tolerances. For me, the problem was always about the contexts of the patterns. They became too varied and diverse, but I could sum them up easily with vague but general statements about the conditions. Of course though, for systems, vague and general ain't gonna cut it.

 

Eventually I had enough of the struggle and let myself go as an experiment. It sounds somewhat similar to what James described earlier on. I relied on my gut and executed within a loose plan that was free to change as I saw the day unfold. Letting myself go was a shock as it is out of character for me, but it was also a pleasant result as my trading started to become profitable. I need more work on risk management though, and would be grateful if James would like to start the ball rolling on that topic too as he did state how crucial it was to him.

 

With kind regards,

MK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MK's point is very good.

 

Choosing to automate is likely to be a choice to forgo some strategy options. If the context is too hard to program then you can't do it. I am finding that trying to code things generates an enormous number of questions as I make new "discoveries"- but also that 5 years of discretionary trading gives me enormous resources of ideas and intuitions about what might work that I didn't have before I traded.

 

A question for the intuitive is "what is it about the context that is so hard to program and what edges might that give us?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MK's point is very good.

 

Choosing to automate is likely to be a choice to forgo some strategy options. If the context is too hard to program then you can't do it. I am finding that trying to code things generates an enormous number of questions as I make new "discoveries"- but also that 5 years of discretionary trading gives me enormous resources of ideas and intuitions about what might work that I didn't have before I traded.

 

A question for the intuitive is "what is it about the context that is so hard to program and what edges might that give us?"

 

For me Kiwi, I haven't gone automated b/c my exits are not exactly a perfected science. I guess in that regard I do rely on some intuition b/c there's plenty of times where my predefined exit is within a couple ticks of being executed but price starts to pause and I just hit the flatten button. I suppose something like that could be coded, but sometimes I just rely on my gut to take a trade out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
......so my adaptation will consist of periodically reviewing the Main Variables to see if they should change because the way that market participants are acting has changed.

 

Is it possible for you to talk about what these main variables are?

 

What are those rectangle shape in the background of bars on your charts, are they higher timeframe bars?

 

Thanks for your inputs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rectangles are higher timeframe bars. They usually have nothing to do with the strategies - I just like to know where things are wrt the longer time bars.

 

Main variables are whatever they are. They are the things that make your strategy succeed or fail or the things that change in the market. One example might be some criteria for how much a double top can be tested before it becomes a break. Over time the players in the market will move such things around - can't make it to simple for the plebes after all. Or maybe you use the slope of an ma as a qualifier - does it change in summer or something.

 

The issue is that you design a strategy to catch some sort of activity. Then you test it to see if it does. But the nature of that activity will change over time as the market evolves and you need to adjust the strategy to reflect the change in its nature. Or design it to be so crude and robust that it doesn't need that. One needs to be careful that you are really adapting to market changes and not just curve fitting though or you will always find that today doesn't fit your curve - a nice thing about Peewee is that it is performing better now than it did in its test period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting as I have been struggling with trying to more automate my trading....

 

Me - I have traded for many years, and combine both systems and intuition. I use the systems to give me triggers, and to position size. That way everything becomes consistent.

But I use intuition to avoid certain trades that just dont fit into the "context" that a binary fully automated system would probably take. Otherwise I try to keep to my rules as much as possible.

While I would like to more automate the trading as i would like to spend more time away from the computer, currently my intuition reduces my PL volatility as I avoid certain losses and hence generally means I make more money.

 

A few points i would like to add. Intuition is only really relevant if you have experience....otherwise its just guess work.

plus i think a lot of the intuition people talk about is actually the media/blogs/other peoples ideas, that cloud their thinking. Before allowing intuition into the mix i think traders should first be able to define their rules, have a plan and ONLY then use intuition to enable them to add to the trading.

Even the most discretionary traders have a plan or strategy..... I am sure its not completely random.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What exactly are you calling intuition?

Do you wake up in the morning and think, "there is no way this market is going up?" Or, do you look at your charts, hear the news, and get a feel that there is no way the market can go up?

 

IMO, one is intuition, the other is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • How long does it take to receive HFM's withdrawal via Skrill? less than 24H?
    • My wife Robin just wanted some groceries.   Simple enough.   She parked the car for fifteen minutes, and returned to find a huge scratch on the side.   Someone keyed her car.   To be clear, this isn’t just any car.   It’s a Cybertruck—Elon Musk's stainless-steel spaceship on wheels. She bought it back in 2021, before Musk became everyone's favorite villain or savior.   Someone saw it parked in a grocery lot and felt compelled to carve their hatred directly into the metal.   That's what happens when you stand out.   Nobody keys a beige minivan.   When you're polarizing, you're impossible to ignore. But the irony is: the more attention something has, the harder it is to find the truth about it.   What’s Elon Musk really thinking? What are his plans? What will happen with DOGE? Is he deserving of all of this adoration and hate? Hard to say.   Ideas work the same way.   Take tariffs, for example.   Tariffs have become the Cybertrucks of economic policy. People either love them or hate them. Even if they don’t understand what they are and how they work. (Most don’t.)   That’s why, in my latest podcast (link below), I wanted to explore the “in-between” truth about tariffs.   And like Cybertrucks, I guess my thoughts on tariffs are polarizing.   Greg Gutfield mentioned me on Fox News. Harvard professors hate me now. (I wonder if they also key Cybertrucks?)   But before I show you what I think about tariffs… I have to mention something.   We’re Headed to Austin, Texas This weekend, my team and I are headed to Austin. By now, you should probably know why.   Yes, SXSW is happening. But my team and I are doing something I think is even better.   We’re putting on a FREE event on “Tech’s Turning Point.”   AI, quantum, biotech, crypto, and more—it’s all on the table.   Just now, we posted a special webpage with the agenda.   Click here to check it out and add it to your calendar.   The Truth About Tariffs People love to panic about tariffs causing inflation.   They wave around the ghost of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff from the Great Depression like it’s Exhibit A proving tariffs equal economic collapse.   But let me pop this myth:   Tariffs don’t cause inflation. And no, I'm not crazy (despite what angry professors from Harvard or Stanford might tweet at me).   Here's the deal.   Inflation isn’t when just a couple of things become pricier. It’s when your entire shopping basket—eggs, shirts, Netflix subscriptions, bananas, everything—starts costing more because your money’s worth less.   Inflation means your dollars aren’t stretching as far as they used to.   Take the 1800s.   For nearly a century, 97% of America’s revenue came from tariffs. Income tax? Didn’t exist. And guess what inflation was? Basically zero. Maybe 1% a year.   The economy was booming, and tariffs funded nearly everything. So, why do people suddenly think tariffs cause inflation today?   Tariffs are taxes on imports, yes, but prices are set by supply and demand—not tariffs.   Let me give you a simple example.   Imagine fancy potato chips from Canada cost $10, and a 20% tariff pushes that to $12. Everyone panics—prices rose! Inflation!   Nope.   If I only have $100 to spend and the price of my favorite chips goes up, I either stop buying chips or I buy, say, fewer newspapers.   If everyone stops buying newspapers because they’re overspending on chips, newspapers lower their prices or go out of business.   Overall spending stays the same, and inflation doesn’t budge.   Three quick scenarios:   We buy pricier chips, but fewer other things: Inflation unchanged. Manufacturers shift to the U.S. to avoid tariffs: Inflation unchanged (and more jobs here). We stop buying fancy chips: Prices drop again. Inflation? Still unchanged. The only thing that actually causes inflation is printing money.   Between 2020 and 2022 alone, 40% of all money ever created in history appeared overnight.   That’s why inflation shot up afterward—not because of tariffs.   Back to tariffs today.   Still No Inflation Unlike the infamous Smoot-Hawley blanket tariff (imagine Oprah handing out tariffs: "You get a tariff, and you get a tariff!"), today's tariffs are strategic.   Trump slapped tariffs on chips from Taiwan because we shouldn’t rely on a single foreign supplier for vital tech components—especially if that supplier might get invaded.   Now Taiwan Semiconductor is investing $100 billion in American manufacturing.   Strategic win, no inflation.   Then there’s Canada and Mexico—our friendly neighbors with weirdly huge tariffs on things like milk and butter (299% tariff on butter—really, Canada?).   Trump’s not blanketing everything with tariffs; he’s pressuring trade partners to lower theirs.   If they do, everybody wins. If they don’t, well, then we have a strategic trade chess game—but still no inflation.   In short, tariffs are about strategy, security, and fairness—not inflation.   Yes, blanket tariffs from the Great Depression era were dumb. Obviously. Today's targeted tariffs? Smart.   Listen to the whole podcast to hear why I think this.   And by the way, if you see a Cybertruck, don’t key it. Robin doesn’t care about your politics; she just likes her weird truck.   Maybe read a good book, relax, and leave cars alone.   (And yes, nobody keys Volkswagens, even though they were basically created by Hitler. Strange world we live in.) Source: https://altucherconfidential.com/posts/the-truth-about-tariffs-busting-the-inflation-myth    Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/       
    • No, not if you are comparing apples to apples. What we call “poor” is obviously a pretty high bar but if you’re talking about like a total homeless shambling skexie in like San Fran then, no. The U.S.A. in not particularly kind to you. It is not an abuse so much as it is a sad relatively minor consequence of our optimism and industriousness.   What you consider rich changes with circumstances obviously. If you are genuinely poor in the U.S.A., you experience a quirky hodgepodge of unhelpful and/or abstract extreme lavishnesses while also being alienated from your social support network. It’s about the same as being a refugee. For a fraction of the ‘kindness’ available to you in non bio-available form, you could have simply stayed closer to your people and been MUCH better off.   It’s just a quirk of how we run the place and our values; we are more worried about interfering with people’s liberty and natural inclination to do for themselves than we are about no bums left behind. It is a slightly hurtful position and we know it; we are just scared to death of socialism cancer and we’re willing to put our money where our mouth is.   So, if you’re a bum; you got 5G, the ER will spend like $1,000,000 on you over a hangnail but then kick you out as soon as you’re “stabilized”, the logistics are surpremely efficient, you have total unchecked freedom of speech, real-estate, motels, and jobs are all natural healthy markets in perfect competition, you got compulsory three ‘R’’s, your military owns the sky, sea, space, night, information-space, and has the best hairdos, you can fill out paper and get all the stuff up to and including a Ph.D. Pretty much everything a very generous, eager, flawless go-getter with five minutes to spare would think you might need.   It’s worse. Our whole society is competitive and we do NOT value or make any kumbaya exception. The last kumbaya types we had werr the Shakers and they literally went extinct. Pueblo peoples are still around but they kind of don’t count since they were here before us. So basically, if you’re poor in the U.S.A., you are automatically a loser and a deadbeat too. You will be treated as such by anybody not specifically either paid to deal with you or shysters selling bejesus, Amway, and drugs. Plus, it ain’t safe out there. Not everybody uses muhfreedoms to lift their truck, people be thugging and bums are very vulnerable here. The history of a large mobile workforce means nobody has a village to go home to. Source: https://askdaddy.quora.com/Are-the-poor-people-in-the-United-States-the-richest-poor-people-in-the-world-6   Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/ 
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.