Guidelines Towards a Trading Career

[a.cherkezov 10]

Hello everyone,

 

I am currently doing an undergraduate degree in Financial Management and I have one year and a half until I graduate. I would like to pursue a trading career but I don't know where to start from.

 

Could someone give me some guidelines of what I should be doing? Should I get my degree first and then look at trading or can I start doing something now? I know that there is a lot of information on the Internet and courses that I could do online but I prefer to something like a job which involves trading or a course(but not an online one). I think that I have dedication but I need something to start me off before I can start practicing and learning by myself.

 

By the way I have read James Dalton's book Mind Over Markets and I am interested in Market Profile but I don't know much about it.

 

Thank you in advance!

[StockCoach 10]

If you are capatilized, say $50,000 to trade, and want to make trading a career move, particularly trading stocks, I suggest you think about the following:

 

1. Working closely with a qualified, actively and successfully trading coach - to gain the confidence, competence, and consistently profitable performance results.

 

2. It's all about the games we play in life. All trading is about games - strategy, tactics, rules, and so on - find and trade a winner's game, for sure, not a loser's game - ask your coach.

 

3. Trading with your coach and other winners, not gossipy losers, in a winner's stock trading room.

 

Hope that helps...

 

John

[brownsfan019 17]

So brand new person #1 asks what to do and brand new #2 person (whose username would imply they are a trading 'coach') suggests that they get a coach.

 

Big surprise.

 

Where is #3 asking for the website of #2 so that they can just 'help' out #1?

 

:rofl:

[zdo 20]

cherkezov, I suggest you open a tiny fx account and just start trading it. At first just use the individual results to tell what you need to learn, then as you build some net results use those to identify what you need to work on for the bigger picture. You must ultimately fit your style to yourself – so why waste years fitting yourself to the styles of others. Just about any old 'top ten rules' of trading you can find anywhere on the internet is all the reading you really need to do… the education is finding how, what, where, when they mean to you and how you can make you own living rules that are not conflictual to live by.

 

brownsfan you know you don’t have to be so shy and unassertive … you can just come out and say what you mean

[brownsfan019 17]

brownsfan you know you don’t have to be so shy and unassertive … you can just come out and say what you mean

 

It's more fun when I play connect the dots.

 

[Cruiser 10]

There are lots of differing opinions as to the best way to get started. You have to consider the cost both in terms of hard cash and in opportunity costs for time spent studying trading as opposed to studies needed for you to complete your degree.

 

Whatever way you choose, your best bet is to find a broker that will let you use a simulated account at little or know charge. The one which comes to mind is Think or Swim, but I'm sure there are others. Although with Think or Swim the quotes on an unfunded account will be delayed. You could open a small funded account with them and just trade simulator to get real time quotes, since I don't think they have have quote fees.

 

 

Practice and learn until you're consistently profitable.

[zdo 20]

re:

Whatever way you choose, your best bet is to find a broker that will let you use a simulated account at little or know charge.

 

Sim screens ultimately do not decrease the pool of ‘loosers’.

But forget statistics! If indeed you are a winner then get freakin busy trading and don’t waste a minute or an opportunity on a sim screen. ‘All’ the brokers (of course), ‘all’ the coaches, ‘all’ the helpful online posters, ‘all’ the magazine articles and advertisements, even ‘all’ the poker ‘pros’, advise noobies to sim trade… heck, it’s a blooming paradigm.

The premise behind that advice – practice practice practice – is very sound! However, I advise noobies to go real from the beginning with a small account and with real do that core learning activity – practice practice practice.

You will learn far more about yourself going real from the beginning. You will prepare yourself to deal far more realistically and effectively with suddenly changing conditions going real from the beginning. You will find out much more accurately and quickly whether or not and to what extent the trading game is for you going real from the beginning.

Going sim is not bad advice. But there are just better alternatives to sim training these days (unless you just want to stroke yourself) . As a beginner, you will still have to do the same explorations in styles, edges, money management, etc ... just make it real. Real is harder and more direct – but it is real.

 

"Train like you fight. Fight like you train" Which comes closer? Sim or real?

[JEHs 10]

I was watching some BMX biking videos with my son the other day and they were talking about the development of the foam pit. A large pit filled with foam block that you can land in without hurting yourself. They were doing huge tricks off ramps and stuff.

 

I said: Wimps!

Go real or don't go at all. You will learn so much more about yourselves with that six months in the hospital recovery time between tries, than you will practicing with the foam pit. You will be a better biker in the end. Or you might be dead or just too crippled to try anymore...

:bang head:

JH

[Cruiser 10]

I like the BMX analogy, but no analogies are necessary. It just doesn't make any sense at all to throw money away on real trades before you can be profitable on SIM.

 

Starting out with real money, rather than SIM, knowing you'll lose money in the is a sign that you lack the psychological discipline to do the technically correct thing in trading in the first place.

 

YES there are differences in the ease of trades in SIM including ease of fill and psychological differences, but that doesn't negate the usefulness of SIM in training for those first starting out, trying a new strategy or system, or doing any modifications or corrections to their trading rules and practices.

[ekshay 10]

Cruiser, I think JEHs was being sarcastic there. He doesn't want his son to be crippled. He was supporting sim-trading.

[zdo 20]

You guys’ responses were as if I was saying something was wrong with sim. Check the post. It says “Going sim is not bad advice. But there are just better alternatives to sim training these days…” Maybe I should have prefaced my remarks with “If your drive is to be in the pareto of the pareto, then skip sim…”. If your drive is just to get into the game - sim away.

 

Cruiser is right, no analogies are necessary. I am actually saying learning how to lose real money should take precedence to learning how to win sim money. Take a survey, most everyone else disagrees. There is the crowd consensus and there are the outliers in every game. The crowd forms the great middling. The outliers form the elite. The elite are definitely ‘talented’ – but for them, the talent is way overrated by the crowd.

 

And btw, padded BMX is not sim. It is BMX with ‘stops’ in place… you can still snap your freakin spinal cord. That’s real - not sim. More noobies than should will sim with the crowd and more noobies than should will be net ‘loosers’. I'm really only talking to the few who will push through and chew real. So, prefaced properly with --- if you’re really serious about mastering this game --- then these days, a very small real FX account is a better alternative for all the beginner work and play that needs to unfold for each individual than an unrealistically funded (for most beginners) sim account … hth one or two noobs

[Tams 20]

simming bad practices reinforces bad habits

 

I know this guy... he came to tell me how wonderful his system was because he "made" $XXXXXXXXX sim dollars.

 

I was very happy for him and ask how he did it...

he said he bought 50 contracts of ES at the opening...

 

great, I said.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Tams

[ekshay 10]

learning how to lose real money should take precedence to learning how to win sim money.

:applaud:

 

:security: Now, why did anyone not tell me this before.

 

Thanks, zdo. :yes sir:

[zdo 20]

simming bad practices reinforces bad habits ....

 

Precisely!

 

“When you practice something ‘wrong’ you get really really good at the ‘wrong’ thing.

The longer you practice failure, the harder it becomes to recognize success.

Be careful what you practice, you may get really good at the wrong thing!”

–Tony Blauer

 

Imo - sim trading, papertrading, even certain modes of 'backtesting' / studying 'old' charts all raise the risk of quite unconsciously and unintentionally getting good at the 'wrong' things... yet another reason to forward test 'ideas', etc. with real money at each step of one's journey...

[Tams 20]

however i am not against sim trading

 

 

consider yourself a student pilot

you can fly the Flight Simulator as one of the learning processes

 

you have a lesson plan

you have learning objectives

you have exercises to perform

you have results to review and evaluate

(how many trade simmers have the above?)

 

bear in mind:

no student can learn to fly by sim alone

no student would learn anything if there is no lesson plans and learning objectives

 

(assuming the sim meets the basic requirements)

if a student fails the sim... he is not likely to do well in real flying

but if a student made it in sim... there is no guarantee that he will do well in real life

 

 

YMMV

 

just my 2c

Edited October 6, 2009 by Tams

[zdo 20]

Tams, sim piloting is probably the best and most used analogy in the ‘industry’ and your take on it is more grounded and balanced than most.

 

… I will sidestep how loss of money is best not associated with loss of life, or how the consequences of mistakes in flying are distributed SO differently from the consequences of mistakes in trading, etc…

 

I am not against sim either. A below average pilot (or trading) “trainee” would indeed be advised to spend a greater proportion of time on the sim than the real and be subject to a more structured progression. However, when I think about it, I come to the same conclusion as I have about sim trading - The average to excellent pilot (and trader) reaches the limits of benefits from sim very quickly and needs to get up on a real stick! .. and would in the end be a lot better pilot if the time on sim was miniscule compared to the time in real flight practicing responses to real circumstances – even if the ‘real’ is only in a piper cub / tiny FX acct.

 

If you think about it from the pilot’s perspective, most sim in flying has purposes not truly aligned with creating the very best in a pilot. 'Corporate' reasons drive the emphasis on sim in flight… I suspect they drive the emphasis on sim in trading too – to the detriment of individual traders who are attempting to develop.

 

Why don’t we see more ‘first kiss’ analogies instead of sim piloting analogies?

[Pretorian 10]

Dear fellow-traders,

 

If one is going to be a full time trader, what type of corporation should he establish to manage his trade account?

Can he work as a self employed or there is a better issue?

 

If one trades a futures E-mini, should he calculate his gain/loss each contract for his tax return? but if one is scalping, it could be a hundred of orders each day, should he report them all?

Or, maybe calculating gross gain/loss once in a day, or a month, or a year is enough?

 

Best Regards,

Good Luck in Your Trading!

[electroniclocal 10]

I've been trading for 30 yeears, some as a local, and am teaching my youngest daughter to trade electronically and I'm documenting it in a blog.

 

She started off SIM trading. SIM trading is a must, in my opinion, to learn the methodology and mechanics of your business and to hone your skills.

 

How can you expect to be profitable live if you cannot be profitable in a SIM. Its a rehearsal for the real thing. Even Michael Jackson rehearsed.

Edited November 8, 2009 by electroniclocal
typo

[JBWTrader 10]

Yeah I totally Agree Sim is definitely a must.....its short term/medium insurance against losing ones hard earned money off the bat..........Many people say Ah but losing real money teaches you many things Sim cant....while that is true , the bottom line is People (and I put myself at the top of this list) are really , really stupid when it comes to the first few years of their trading.....until they start to find their way...if certain people want to delude themselves into thinking that they can trade making fake money with Sim after 6-12 months then these types should dip their toe into real money as these types are suffering a phantasy life that is totally unreal.

 

One of the major pitfalls with Sim is that it can also build a rich phantasy life in the wrong hands....discipline goes out the window too easily in this situation.

 

Quiet often a combination of using both and how one decides when to use both is best I have personally found. One needs a strong reflection on ones trading data (real or in sim) to hone in on the shortage of skills that are causing the mistakes that constantly get made...SIm can help prove/disprove that one has fixed a weakness cheaply and hence aquired a "better" skill.

 

Both trading situations can be very dangerous but each type of trading can teach the other type and more importantly the actual person about trading. The trick is to know how to filter through the crap and go with what one knows is real in terms of finding and developing an edge and then exploiting that edge. What way are you going to do that ...? There are these days more and more ways to do this....

 

Sim is just another way to protect ones capital while learning and hopefully if the person is serious about it he/she can use it to find the edge they need to succeed.

 

Just a side not on this issue re sim trading....A different form of it occurs with 80% of the volume of most markets, possibly more these days....ie backward and forward testing of a strategy...especially the forward part....so Sim is criitcal for many blackbox systems to find their edge in the first place...without this they wouldnt be trading...discretionary traders are just using a crude, inconsistent form of it when trading sim manually and most of them likely without a true edge 99% of the time...

 

 

 

Just my 2 cents worth...

 

Best

John

[brownsfan019 17]

Dear fellow-traders,

 

If one is going to be a full time trader, what type of corporation should he establish to manage his trade account?

Can he work as a self employed or there is a better issue?

 

If one trades a futures E-mini, should he calculate his gain/loss each contract for his tax return? but if one is scalping, it could be a hundred of orders each day, should he report them all?

Or, maybe calculating gross gain/loss once in a day, or a month, or a year is enough?

 

Best Regards,

Good Luck in Your Trading!

 

Step 1 is becoming consistently profitable.

 

Are you at that point?

 

If not, these other questions are of no use until you can trade making money.

[Pretorian 10]

Step 1 is becoming consistently profitable.

 

Are you at that point?

 

If not, these other questions are of no use until you can trade making money.

 

Yeap, dear Brownsfan, looks like that...

And even if that is not, who wants to mess with a Tax Man afterwards?...

 

Regards

[brownsfan019 17]

Yeap, dear Brownsfan, looks like that...

And even if that is not, who wants to mess with a Tax Man afterwards?...

 

Regards

 

The tax man is pretty easy to deal w/ if you are a losing trader. And it's not bad if a winning trader, but until you can make money consistently there's not much to discuss.

 

So to clarify - are you a consistently profitable trader?

[robertm 10]

The tax man is pretty easy to deal w/ if you are a losing trader. And it's not bad if a winning trader, but until you can make money consistently there's not much to discuss.

 

So to clarify - are you a consistently profitable trader?

 

Agree with above. Don't spend any money on setting up entities to avoid tax until you are making enough money to warrant it. If you plan to trade full time you might pay a little exra tax just before you get rid of your job, after that your income will taper off until you ramp up the trading account (unless you can cut your full time hours over time rather than in one hit).

 

As for the number of trades etc, just give your end of month statements to your accountant, or better yet your broker may do an end of year tax statement for you to give to him(or her). No need for any book keeping that way, just focus on your trading :-)

[Pretorian 10]

The tax man is pretty easy to deal w/ if you are a losing trader. And it's not bad if a winning trader, but until you can make money consistently there's not much to discuss.

 

So to clarify - are you a consistently profitable trader?

 

Yes, I am.

For about a year out of 3-year practice period.

Very intrigued already...

Regards