Jump to content

Welcome to the new Traders Laboratory! Please bear with us as we finish the migration over the next few days. If you find any issues, want to leave feedback, get in touch with us, or offer suggestions please post to the Support forum here.

  • Welcome Guests

    Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at Traders Laboratory such as interacting with members, access to all forums, downloading attachments, and eligibility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE Traders Laboratory account here.

UrmaBlume

The Evolution of Market Profile Theory

Recommended Posts

No point, I've discovered the harmonic is only good to look at after the fact.

 

If your version of the harmonic is only good after the fact then maybe it is missing something. This version usually leads, as shown.

 

V94RawHarmonic.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If your version of the harmonic is only good after the fact then maybe it is missing something. This version usually leads, as shown.

 

V94RawHarmonic.jpg

 

"Usually Leads".

 

The problem is that sometimes it can whipsaw and for the style that I trade, by the time the cross over occurs can sometimes be later then where I would have already entered my trade. I've just found other methods of choosing entries to be superior. One thing, is that it definitely works much better for trending markets then range markets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If your version of the harmonic is only good after the fact then maybe it is missing something. This version usually leads, as shown.

 

V94RawHarmonic.jpg

 

"Usually Leads".

 

The problem is that sometimes it can whipsaw and for the style that I trade, by the time the cross over occurs can sometimes be later then where I would have already entered my trade. I've just found other methods of choosing entries to be better suited to my style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The problem is that sometimes it can whipsaw and for the style that I trade, by the time the cross over occurs can sometimes be later then where I would have already entered my trade. I've just found other methods of choosing entries to be superior. One thing, is that it definitely works much better for trending markets then range markets.

 

By crossover... you don't mean when the plot crosses 0 do you? The trade is at the peaks of the plot.

 

I've seen whipsaw, too, but I haven't applied any sophisticated smoothing to it, so... I haven't really evaluated it properly yet.

 

UB's nicely goes up and down whereas looking at the raw calculation I'm using, it wiggles a lot. Hmm.... which might mean: 1) UB is using some cycle smoothing on it and 2) I already know UB uses a different underlying formula for calculating it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
By crossover... you don't mean when the plot crosses 0 do you? The trade is at the peaks of the plot.

 

I've seen whipsaw, too, but I haven't applied any sophisticated smoothing to it, so... I haven't really evaluated it properly yet.

 

UB's nicely goes up and down whereas looking at the raw calculation I'm using, it wiggles a lot. Hmm.... which might mean: 1) UB is using some cycle smoothing on it and 2) I already know UB uses a different underlying formula for calculating it

 

Even if you look at the peak, there is no way to now when that peak is in. This is something nice to look at, that is about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Even if you look at the peak, there is no way to now when that peak is in. This is something nice to look at, that is about it.

 

I'm a little confused... The peak is obvious on UB's charts: velocity changes sign and he has what I assume is a crossover of 2 differently smoothed values.

 

If what you're saying is that you don't have that on your chart, fair enough. I don't either :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

UB can you suggest if the velocity considered in Harmonic Indicator are changes in volume domain (ex. in per constant volume bar sell/buy quantity) or time domain bar (ex. changes in sell/buy quantity for timeframe considered)?

 

Thanks

 

Paolo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think UB is posting anymore, but I think we should carry this thread forward, anybody interested? I'm sure many of us have ideas concerning the ,"now," of Steidlemayers work. If so let me know and we can keep this thread alive if that's ok with the moderators.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

clmacdougal,

 

What areas are in the"now" of Steidlemayers work right now for you?

Anything in this thread?

What have you gotten from this thread so far? etc?

These are curiosity, not challenge, questions btw.

Thanks.

 

zdo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I created profiles of the emini S&P 500 for each day and night session independent of each other for three years worth of data. I then divided up each profile by it's construction, using what I thought to be a reasonable and scientific approach. If the upper tail was at least twice as long as the lower tail I labeled the profile as a "b". If the lower tail was at least twice as long as the upper tail I labeled the profile as a "P". And if neither was twice as long as the opposite tail I labeled it as an, "O".

 

So I had the beginnings of a study in price reaction to differing profile structures. Not only that but after a considerable amount of study it became plain to see that if the evening value area was able to fully detach itself from the same days RTH value area, then it became the value area of importance come the next morning. To put it in different terms, if the evening value area was able to migrate/detach itself from the days value area , then it became the value area of choice to trade with in mind come the next morning.

 

Then I divided it up further by deciding upon the trend of the dominant profile by simply comparing the present dominant value area to yesterdays dominant value area. If it had a Lower Low and a Lower High it of course was proof of a downtrending profile and if it had a Higher High and a Higher Low it was of course an uptrending profile.

 

Next I went to a fourth step, Where does price then open ( at 8:30 am CST)? Within what I called the Upper Deviation (a space equal to the value area but above the value area high). Within the value area (between the vah and val). Or within what I called the Lower Deviation ( a space equal to the value area but below the value area low).

 

Fifth, what point does price then first touch after the open, 1st Deviation High, Value Area High, Value Area Low, or 1st Deviation Low?

 

And then finally, after all of this is said and done, the key question "WHERE DOES PRICE THEN MOVE TOWARDS?"

Is there predictability in price movement after all of these conditions had been monitored closely? The answer is yes, but not without both risk and the potential for failure.

 

I have been studying now for 3 1/2 years and I enjoy learning about the markets and market structure. I am in no ways yet successful as a trader, but I'm beginning to learn how to look at the market.............. at least I think/hope so.haha

 

Let me know what you think, any of your own observations would be appreciated

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problems I've seen with Market Profile as a central trading ideology is that it's boundaries (areas of price rejection) and it's center (TPO/HVP) are too static.

Any previous understanding of value is almost totally useless by the time price reaches those boundaries again.

It seems like market profile was an attempt to discover support and resistance areas without the need of traditional price action understandings/patterns to uncover those areas.

Imagine the naivety of believing that price will almost always return to it's central Value Area simply because it found itself at yesterdays rejection area.

Everything for sale, with regards to trading information/methods, does not work. You would have to be crazy to sell a trading method/understanding that proved itself useful. You would be throwing away what could be passed down for generations to come in your own family.

When it comes to trading, yesterdays newspaper is the only one you'll ever get a chance to buy. Sit, look at tons of charts and think. So far for me it's been the best way to learn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

your points are all valid -- but you are making a bunch of blanket statements about your interpretation of market profiles 'trading rules'.... I think they are off the mark in that regard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using the profile to determine trading levels in incredibility accurate...proper study

will confirm this...there are many options to using it other than the standard 30 min chart.

I use the profile for levels, and other charts for signals when those levels are reached...

will never trade again without the profile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
your points are all valid -- but you are making a bunch of blanket statements about your interpretation of market profiles 'trading rules'.... I think they are off the mark in that regard.

 

Explain to me what is really offered by market profile outside of an attempting to discern Support and Resistance in a non-traditional manner? Nothing.

Outside of Steidlemayers imbalance to balance statement what truly new concept has been found? That statement itself is what I've found to be the only gold in all the Market Profile writings. The question is can it be applied more effectively than what we've seen in UB's writings?

What is the "now" application of the golden principle discovered by Steidlemayer , in a means keeping with technology while staying true to the concept?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Using the profile to determine trading levels in incredibility accurate...proper study

will confirm this...there are many options to using it other than the standard 30 min chart.

I use the profile for levels, and other charts for signals when those levels are reached...

will never trade again without the profile.

 

Please let us in on what "proper study" you've done. And what "levels" you are referring to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing you say...I guess you haven't observed it enough. The developing structure

gives clues all day long about the market. Including measured moves, stalling to

build places to trade back to creating high and low volume prices...but just watching a 30 min profile has limited use for day trading other than trading the value area. I learned from someone that has studied the profile for 7 or 8 years building charts by hand every day.

Yes, the profile isn't useful if you don't know how to read what it is saying.

There is no question in my mind it's a valuable tool and I apply it every day...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes MP is a tool...and a very good one...but can reveal much more than a bar chart...that's why I use it... understanding how to use and read it is the trick...but like any tool,

there is no magic solution to trading...pick your tools , and learn them well...and quit searching for any holy grail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MP is a tool. There is nothing mystical or statistically significant about it. You can gain much of the same info from a bar chart. Don't expect any trading tool to solve your problems.

 

 

Peace

 

What's the good of a tool if there's nothing statistically significantly about it? I'm afraid I'm of the same mind Mighty Mouse, the chart is the thing. Anything that hides them bars hides the truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What's the good of a tool if there's nothing statistically significantly about it? I'm afraid I'm of the same mind Mighty Mouse, the chart is the thing. Anything that hides them bars hides the truth.

 

 

Well, there aren't any tools that offer long term statistical significance other than trading with inside information. The fact that something worked over the las 3 months or 3 years or 3 decades has no bearing on how it will work tomorrow.

 

You do lose some info when the profile is collapsed against the price axis, but most MP packages allow you to expand the profile and you can view the bars again and still see the VA and POC.Try it, you might like it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MP has it's value...and is a great tool...but most traders don't take the time

to really learn to use it...but that is kind of a conundrum ...there are very few places

that really know how to teach it. It takes screen time like any trading method.

It's easy to reject something if you don't know anything about it. There are new software

products now that allow for the profile to be on candle or bar charts...which can help

you understand the value of this tool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The problems I've seen with Market Profile as a central trading ideology is that it's boundaries (areas of price rejection) and it's center (TPO/HVP) are too static.

Any previous understanding of value is almost totally useless by the time price reaches those boundaries again.

.

 

Hey Cory,

I couldn't resist :)

 

In reply to your earlier comment that MP is static...it's all relative. You can trade off a monthly value area where the state of value is static but you could also trade off a 5 minute or 30 minute profile where value is pretty dynamic and constantly shifting.

 

Here's my 2 cents coming from someone who when 1st introduced to MP realized it was something of great significance but took a very long time to figure out how to make sense of it in a functional way (and I am still learning). I'm going to speak in terms of what I personally need in order to feel in control of my trading and make sense of market activity, for me MP is the answer....to each his own. When I say MP I refer to market profile, auction theory, order flow and volume analysis....as far as I am concerned they all go hand in hand. The profile is my base....everything else builds on it.

 

As Steidylmayer said data arrangement is the basis for control. In order to be in control you need to represent market activity faithfully without distortion. Markets are 2 dimensional...they move vertically and horizontally (or a combo of both). We all know that price is the medium in which the mkt expresses itself but unfortunately a regular bar chart displays price in mostly vertical terms and tends to create a reactive atmosphere. It doesn't reflect the horizontal movement very well....each new bar goes forward exactly the same distance as the last one regardless of the amount of activity in the bar. You can't see within the bar to see exactly where the all important 1st standard deviation (VALUE) is. I don't know about you but I'm not going to any kind of auction without first knowing the value of the object I'm bidding on. (I know I'm speaking in very general terms here)

 

It's late and I'm starting to ramble but it would be great to keep this discussion going. Maybe start talking methodology and posting some charts.

 

And remember...price is the medium of expression, not the expression itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Cory,

I couldn't resist :)

 

In reply to your earlier comment that MP is static...it's all relative. You can trade off a monthly value area where the state of value is static but you could also trade off a 5 minute or 30 minute profile where value is pretty dynamic and constantly shifting.

 

Here's my 2 cents coming from someone who when 1st introduced to MP realized it was something of great significance but took a very long time to figure out how to make sense of it in a functional way (and I am still learning). I'm going to speak in terms of what I personally need in order to feel in control of my trading and make sense of market activity, for me MP is the answer....to each his own. When I say MP I refer to market profile, auction theory, order flow and volume analysis....as far as I am concerned they all go hand in hand. The profile is my base....everything else builds on it.

 

As Steidylmayer said data arrangement is the basis for control. In order to be in control you need to represent market activity faithfully without distortion. Markets are 2 dimensional...they move vertically and horizontally (or a combo of both). We all know that price is the medium in which the mkt expresses itself but unfortunately a regular bar chart displays price in mostly vertical terms and tends to create a reactive atmosphere. It doesn't reflect the horizontal movement very well....each new bar goes forward exactly the same distance as the last one regardless of the amount of activity in the bar. You can't see within the bar to see exactly where the all important 1st standard deviation (VALUE) is. I don't know about you but I'm not going to any kind of auction without first knowing the value of the object I'm bidding on. (I know I'm speaking in very general terms here)

 

It's late and I'm starting to ramble but it would be great to keep this discussion going. Maybe start talking methodology and posting some charts.

 

And remember...price is the medium of expression, not the expression itself.

 

Hey Tommy! Good to hear from you.

UB said something to me in a post alot earlier that stuck, he called what I was doing a "pseudo-science". In effect a false science. I wonder how many trading methods based upon MP are just that and what parts of it conceptually offer a truly fractal (applicable in all time frames) and viable means of studying price action.

Bar charts don't show horizontal rotation, you're right, but who wants to monitor indecision anyway? Rotation is not value, it's simply indecision concerning the direction in which price should head to next. You can monitor value via time (TPO) or volume (HVP) or through (VWAP) and you'll come to the same understanding, all you're uncovering are areas of indecision, not value. In effect the Value Area/POC (however you come about it) is a worthless lean.

Look, here's what I'm saying, tell me how to take the one or two golden principles found in Steidlemayers work and apply it outside of the ways mentioned in the old books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hey Tommy! Good to hear from you.

UB said something to me in a post alot earlier that stuck, he called what I was doing a "pseudo-science". In effect a false science. I wonder how many trading methods based upon MP are just that and what parts of it conceptually offer a truly fractal (applicable in all time frames) and viable means of studying price action.

Bar charts don't show horizontal rotation, you're right, but who wants to monitor indecision anyway? Rotation is not value, it's simply indecision concerning the direction in which price should head to next. You can monitor value via time (TPO) or volume (HVP) or through (VWAP) and you'll come to the same understanding, all you're uncovering are areas of indecision, not value. In effect the Value Area/POC (however you come about it) is a worthless lean.

Look, here's what I'm saying, tell me how to take the one or two golden principles found in Steidlemayers work and apply it outside of the ways mentioned in the old books.

 

Hey there my friend,

 

I have to say when I am running on all cylinders 99.9% of my trading plan consists of leaning on value of some degree or another.

 

Although you can say the concept of MP is a science I believe learning and mastering it is more of an art. Kinda like playing a musical instrument if you will. The concept itself is easy to understand but to be able to harness the power of it is another story. On the surface pressing some keys on a piano looks easy...but to produce beautiful sound from one I imagine would be quite the endeavor.

 

Horizontal rotation is caused by traders agreeing on value within a given zone or area. You can't expect traders to agree on 1 exact price for value for any period of time but they will agree on an area. It's a feeling out process to find efficiency or balance. Its all relative to the time frame you are trading. There is always going to be indecision and uncertainty at some level. The degree of indecision is what makes the market Cory. The key for me is comparing the balance/imbalance in the foreground to the balance/imbalance in the background. When I learned to do that I was able to embrace the uncertainty.

 

The question I'm always asking my self...how does the vertical movement/dominance in the FG (foreground) compare to the condition of the BG (background)?

The 2 outcomes to that question are what shape my trading plan:

 

1) the FG vertical movement/dominance gets absorbed by the balance in the BG (for me a winning situation/trade(s))

 

2) The FG vertical movement/dominance changes the condition of the BG (I stop out and evaluate the opportunity to reverse and start the process all over again)

 

Gotta run...I have some value areas waiting to be leaned on. ;)

 

To be continued....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Thx for reminding us... I don't bang that drum often enough anymore Another part for consideration is who that money initially went to...
    • TDUP ThredUp stock, watch for a top of range breakout above 2.94 at https://stockconsultant.com/?TDUP
    • How long does it take to receive HFM's withdrawal via Skrill? less than 24H?
    • My wife Robin just wanted some groceries.   Simple enough.   She parked the car for fifteen minutes, and returned to find a huge scratch on the side.   Someone keyed her car.   To be clear, this isn’t just any car.   It’s a Cybertruck—Elon Musk's stainless-steel spaceship on wheels. She bought it back in 2021, before Musk became everyone's favorite villain or savior.   Someone saw it parked in a grocery lot and felt compelled to carve their hatred directly into the metal.   That's what happens when you stand out.   Nobody keys a beige minivan.   When you're polarizing, you're impossible to ignore. But the irony is: the more attention something has, the harder it is to find the truth about it.   What’s Elon Musk really thinking? What are his plans? What will happen with DOGE? Is he deserving of all of this adoration and hate? Hard to say.   Ideas work the same way.   Take tariffs, for example.   Tariffs have become the Cybertrucks of economic policy. People either love them or hate them. Even if they don’t understand what they are and how they work. (Most don’t.)   That’s why, in my latest podcast (link below), I wanted to explore the “in-between” truth about tariffs.   And like Cybertrucks, I guess my thoughts on tariffs are polarizing.   Greg Gutfield mentioned me on Fox News. Harvard professors hate me now. (I wonder if they also key Cybertrucks?)   But before I show you what I think about tariffs… I have to mention something.   We’re Headed to Austin, Texas This weekend, my team and I are headed to Austin. By now, you should probably know why.   Yes, SXSW is happening. But my team and I are doing something I think is even better.   We’re putting on a FREE event on “Tech’s Turning Point.”   AI, quantum, biotech, crypto, and more—it’s all on the table.   Just now, we posted a special webpage with the agenda.   Click here to check it out and add it to your calendar.   The Truth About Tariffs People love to panic about tariffs causing inflation.   They wave around the ghost of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff from the Great Depression like it’s Exhibit A proving tariffs equal economic collapse.   But let me pop this myth:   Tariffs don’t cause inflation. And no, I'm not crazy (despite what angry professors from Harvard or Stanford might tweet at me).   Here's the deal.   Inflation isn’t when just a couple of things become pricier. It’s when your entire shopping basket—eggs, shirts, Netflix subscriptions, bananas, everything—starts costing more because your money’s worth less.   Inflation means your dollars aren’t stretching as far as they used to.   Take the 1800s.   For nearly a century, 97% of America’s revenue came from tariffs. Income tax? Didn’t exist. And guess what inflation was? Basically zero. Maybe 1% a year.   The economy was booming, and tariffs funded nearly everything. So, why do people suddenly think tariffs cause inflation today?   Tariffs are taxes on imports, yes, but prices are set by supply and demand—not tariffs.   Let me give you a simple example.   Imagine fancy potato chips from Canada cost $10, and a 20% tariff pushes that to $12. Everyone panics—prices rose! Inflation!   Nope.   If I only have $100 to spend and the price of my favorite chips goes up, I either stop buying chips or I buy, say, fewer newspapers.   If everyone stops buying newspapers because they’re overspending on chips, newspapers lower their prices or go out of business.   Overall spending stays the same, and inflation doesn’t budge.   Three quick scenarios:   We buy pricier chips, but fewer other things: Inflation unchanged. Manufacturers shift to the U.S. to avoid tariffs: Inflation unchanged (and more jobs here). We stop buying fancy chips: Prices drop again. Inflation? Still unchanged. The only thing that actually causes inflation is printing money.   Between 2020 and 2022 alone, 40% of all money ever created in history appeared overnight.   That’s why inflation shot up afterward—not because of tariffs.   Back to tariffs today.   Still No Inflation Unlike the infamous Smoot-Hawley blanket tariff (imagine Oprah handing out tariffs: "You get a tariff, and you get a tariff!"), today's tariffs are strategic.   Trump slapped tariffs on chips from Taiwan because we shouldn’t rely on a single foreign supplier for vital tech components—especially if that supplier might get invaded.   Now Taiwan Semiconductor is investing $100 billion in American manufacturing.   Strategic win, no inflation.   Then there’s Canada and Mexico—our friendly neighbors with weirdly huge tariffs on things like milk and butter (299% tariff on butter—really, Canada?).   Trump’s not blanketing everything with tariffs; he’s pressuring trade partners to lower theirs.   If they do, everybody wins. If they don’t, well, then we have a strategic trade chess game—but still no inflation.   In short, tariffs are about strategy, security, and fairness—not inflation.   Yes, blanket tariffs from the Great Depression era were dumb. Obviously. Today's targeted tariffs? Smart.   Listen to the whole podcast to hear why I think this.   And by the way, if you see a Cybertruck, don’t key it. Robin doesn’t care about your politics; she just likes her weird truck.   Maybe read a good book, relax, and leave cars alone.   (And yes, nobody keys Volkswagens, even though they were basically created by Hitler. Strange world we live in.) Source: https://altucherconfidential.com/posts/the-truth-about-tariffs-busting-the-inflation-myth    Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/       
    • No, not if you are comparing apples to apples. What we call “poor” is obviously a pretty high bar but if you’re talking about like a total homeless shambling skexie in like San Fran then, no. The U.S.A. in not particularly kind to you. It is not an abuse so much as it is a sad relatively minor consequence of our optimism and industriousness.   What you consider rich changes with circumstances obviously. If you are genuinely poor in the U.S.A., you experience a quirky hodgepodge of unhelpful and/or abstract extreme lavishnesses while also being alienated from your social support network. It’s about the same as being a refugee. For a fraction of the ‘kindness’ available to you in non bio-available form, you could have simply stayed closer to your people and been MUCH better off.   It’s just a quirk of how we run the place and our values; we are more worried about interfering with people’s liberty and natural inclination to do for themselves than we are about no bums left behind. It is a slightly hurtful position and we know it; we are just scared to death of socialism cancer and we’re willing to put our money where our mouth is.   So, if you’re a bum; you got 5G, the ER will spend like $1,000,000 on you over a hangnail but then kick you out as soon as you’re “stabilized”, the logistics are surpremely efficient, you have total unchecked freedom of speech, real-estate, motels, and jobs are all natural healthy markets in perfect competition, you got compulsory three ‘R’’s, your military owns the sky, sea, space, night, information-space, and has the best hairdos, you can fill out paper and get all the stuff up to and including a Ph.D. Pretty much everything a very generous, eager, flawless go-getter with five minutes to spare would think you might need.   It’s worse. Our whole society is competitive and we do NOT value or make any kumbaya exception. The last kumbaya types we had werr the Shakers and they literally went extinct. Pueblo peoples are still around but they kind of don’t count since they were here before us. So basically, if you’re poor in the U.S.A., you are automatically a loser and a deadbeat too. You will be treated as such by anybody not specifically either paid to deal with you or shysters selling bejesus, Amway, and drugs. Plus, it ain’t safe out there. Not everybody uses muhfreedoms to lift their truck, people be thugging and bums are very vulnerable here. The history of a large mobile workforce means nobody has a village to go home to. Source: https://askdaddy.quora.com/Are-the-poor-people-in-the-United-States-the-richest-poor-people-in-the-world-6   Profits from free accurate cryptos signals: https://www.predictmag.com/ 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.