The Price / Volume Relationship

[gucci 10]

Highlighted in bold, you say we cannot be at the end of the medium B2B, it's P2, until price BO of the B2B container (Olive) with increasing volume.

 

As price did not BO of it's B2B container (Olive), why is there a medium 2R gaussian ?

 

Why isn't that medium 2R a thin 2r gausian

ie: b2b2r2b 2r(at10.45)2b 2r(at11.10)2b ?

 

Or the thick B2B is not instead a medium B2B ?

 

Kind Regards

 

 

What about the following suggestion:

 

"Try to think now about what the volume trough at 10:55 indicated. And what happened in the price pane and volume pane at 11:05 and 11:10"?

[Zan-shin 10]

As a general principle this sounds fine but in reality, the market simply does not behave in a uniform 3*3 relationship as in your theoretical illustration.

Upon reflection, I have to agree. I thought I was on to something but it appears not. You might think that IF anyone understands what is going on here they would step forward and offer an explanation. Instead, those that want to give the impression that they understand just post drills. Weird.

[gucci 10]

 

Agreed, this can not be Pt 2 of the medium sequence.

 

Two things make logical sense to me here:

 

1. The medium B2B can not yet be complete. I arrive at this by WWT (what wasn't that), as it was not the 2R the B2B must still be forming.

Or

2. The medium B2B was started in the wrong location.

 

I know #2 is obviously the correct conclusion, I am just stuck on the why.

 

 

Actually #1 is the logical consequence. Remember you do not trade in hindsight. So the placement of the medium B2B troughs at 10:25 in realtime is the right thing to do. But you move it after additional data arrives. Now you do not reverse at points 2 of the faster fractal traverses, do you? :)So you just hold.

 

 

 

11:05 and 11:10 form a down container which fail to move through the RTL just as happened at 10:45. However, both bars of the 11:05 container are decreasing volume unlike the previous.

 

 

 

Now look at what develops in the volume pane at the 2B part of the medium lines. (10:35 –10:50)

 

Think in terms of acceleration.

[Zan-shin 10]

Or the thick B2B is not instead a medium B2B ?

Kind Regards

Something like this perhaps? Because we have no olive rtl bo, the thin gaussian continues, creating only a medium B2B, with the trough of the B2B where the black peaks start to increase.

[moosie 10]

Attached is my effort on the 10/13 downward movement. I tried to be very strict with the tape level, using a preliminary differentiation of the ve close as a guide to fan/no fan.

 

I've similar questions to those of breakeven:

 

1. Did I jump fractals?

2. A better understaning of _____ would improve this chart directly?

 

Any comments welcome and appreciated.

[zt379 10]

What about the following suggestion:

 

"Try to think now about what the volume trough at 10:55 indicated. And what happened in the price pane and volume pane at 11:05 and 11:10"?

 

Thx for the reply.

I left out that part of your post for the following reason:

I was understanding a general principle to be that until the olive RTL had a BO on increasing volume then the B2B medium fractal would continue.

Such that we couldn't have the medium 2R yet.

 

I left out responding to volume peaks and troughs until this general principle was confirmed or other wise ? ?

 

What you are trying (most patiently and thank you) to convey, as I understand it,

is that the medium 2R is not defined as having to be outside the olive RTL,

but that volume determines where the medium 2R is ?

 

And even more specifically how that volume is formed ?

IE: higher peaks, lower troughs ets..??

 

Its not easy to talk this through in this medium so hope I'm explaining myself and thank everyone for their continued input.

 

For me, this is only about how to know to what fractal the gaussian relates.

 

If the solution, to understanding how to determine what fractal we are on, is about volume peaks and troughs then it would be great to have the general principles explained on that as I do not recall them being given in this thread, nor indeed in any of the threads that I have been following for at least the last 4 years !

 

many thx

Edited October 17, 2010 by zt379

[zt379 10]

Something like this perhaps? Because we have no olive rtl bo, the thin gaussian continues, creating only a medium B2B, with the trough of the B2B where the black peaks start to increase.

 

Yes exactly. Thank you.

As per my post 2330:

is a B2B RTL BO on increasing volume required in order to have its same fractal 2R leg

a principle required for this methodology ?

 

Many Thx

[Breakeven 10]

Actually #1 is the logical consequence. Remember you do not trade in hindsight. So the placement of the medium B2B troughs at 10:25 in realtime is the right thing to do. But you move it after additional data arrives. Now you do not reverse at points 2 of the faster fractal traverses, do you? :)So you just hold.

 

Alright! Now I am getting on the same page as you. This is starting to make sense

 

 

Now look at what develops in the volume pane at the 2B part of the medium lines. (10:35 –10:50)

Think in terms of acceleration.

 

It appears that volume continues to make higher peaks before ending the move on relatively low black volume. Volume also makes a higher peak that the volume at Pt 1. To be honest though, I am not sure exactly what this is telling me.

 

Thanks again!

[zt379 10]

Yes exactly. Thank you.

As per my post 2330:

is a B2B RTL BO on increasing volume required in order to have its same fractal 2R leg

a principle required for this methodology ?

 

Many Thx

 

No it's not an error that I'm quoting myself..lol

My question, I realize may have been miss leading.

 

I would say that yes a BO of the B2B RTL is required in order to have it's same fractal 2R leg.

What I am perhaps realizing is that the determination of that B2B RTL has more to do with volume than lines on a chart as we annotated them up to that point.

 

??

 

Regards to all...you too yoda

[become 10]

Actually #1 is the logical consequence. Remember you do not trade in hindsight. So the placement of the medium B2B troughs at 10:25 in realtime is the right thing to do. But you move it after additional data arrives. Now you do not reverse at points 2 of the faster fractal traverses, do you? :)So you just hold.

.

 

That's the approach I use, but it means you are dealing with probability (of a B2B in this case) until later confirmation or disconfirmation.

Also, in this specific case it wouldn't cause a trading error if you are trading on a slower fractal. But since the same situation can occur on your trading fractal (fractals being identical), it can result in a error if/when it develops on the slower fractal.

[moosie 10]

part 2-

 

The gaussians feel like a necessary/sufficiency gate on what I build up from the tapes. Am I drawing them correctly or completely missing the boat?

[moosie 10]

now with pics, see txtbox notes

[moosie 10]

Through midday 10/15. How many posts does it take before you're not stuck in moderation jail any more?

[gucci 10]

That's the approach I use, but it means you are dealing with probability (of a B2B in this case) until later confirmation or disconfirmation.

 

No, it doesn't. It only means that you are not interested in knowing how many sequences the market will provide. If you try to predict the number of sequences, then you are right. YOU are dealing with probs.

 

Also, in this specific case it wouldn't cause a trading error if you are trading on a slower fractal. But since the same situation can occur on your trading fractal (fractals being identical), it can result in a error if/when it develops on the slower fractal.

 

If you choose a faster fractal to trade on, you'll need additional annotations for the even faster fractal then the chosen one. So your MADA will differ.

[moosie 10]

part 4- so if we see an accelleration in the blue medium up container, we might drive through the thick down container and start a thick up thing?

[become 10]

No, it doesn't. It only means that you are not interested in knowing how many sequences the market will provide. If you try to predict the number of sequences, then you are right. YOU are dealing with probs.

 

 

 

If you choose a faster fractal to trade on, you'll need additional annotations for the even faster fractal then the chosen one. So your MADA will differ.

 

1. I wasn't talking about prediction. If you annotate a B2B but then discover it wasn't, then your annotation was either of a probability, or a mistake.

 

2. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking about trading on a faster fractal. Since fractals are identical, the same situation can occur on the slower trading fractal.

[gucci 10]

1. I wasn't talking about prediction. If you annotate a B2B but then discover it wasn't, then your annotation was either of a probability, or a mistake.

.

 

This can not be a mistake because at the time of annotation you do not have any additional data.It doesn't have anything to do with probability either. The discussions of this type are futile. You want to think the way you think, so be it.

2. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I wasn't talking about trading on a faster fractal. Since fractals are identical, the same situation can occur on the slower trading fractal.

 

You were clear enough. You just confused something about fractals.

Edited October 18, 2010 by gucci

[moosie 10]

Part 5. It looks like the thick down goat ended today, and a new thick up started.

 

Am I on a decent path here, or am I so far off the track I've wandered into Baja?

[gucci 10]

Thx for the reply.

 

What you are trying (most patiently and thank you) to convey, as I understand it,

is that the medium 2R is not defined as having to be outside the olive RTL,

but that volume determines where the medium 2R is ?

 

One more time… It is not ONLY about volume BUT ALSO about price.

 

Think…

 

How do you draw a tape? Where do you place the point 3 of a tape? Since the tape is nothing more then the faster fractal traverse, think about the following questions.

 

How do you draw a traverse ? Where do you place point 3 of a traverse AND what HAS TO HAPPEN in the VOLUME pane for your point 3 of a traverse being in the right place?

 

Why do you HAVE sometimes to steepen your RTL?

 

Now what about the LOCATION of point 2? Does it have to be OUTSIDE of something?

 

Do not answer these questions for me. Think about them while analysing or annotating a chart.

 

And even more specifically how that volume is formed ?

IE: higher peaks, lower troughs ets..??

 

Yes. AND where those troughs and peaks are located (see price pane, points 1,2,3 containers) AND what the volume did to price.

 

For me, this is only about how to know to what fractal the gaussian relates.

 

If the solution, to understanding how to determine what fractal we are on, is about volume peaks and troughs then it would be great to have the general principles explained on that as I do not recall them being given in this thread, nor indeed in any of the threads that I have been following for at least the last 4 years !

 

 

I can relate to your frustration, believe me. But the GENERAL principles where explicitly explained by Spyder in the beginning of this very thread. You just had to pay attention.

 

HTH.

[gucci 10]

Here is my DAX chart with annotations. Only traverse level Gaussians are annotated.

 

The Gaussian line before the last one should be red, sorry.

[TIKITRADER 10]

Posted this a while back if it helps some.

Really could have used volume to better display.

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/34/price-volume-relationship-6320-84.html#post77698

 

I remember a much better one created and posted

by MKTr. If I find it I will post it. Maybe if someone has it

Or the link you can please post it.

[gucci 10]

Dax follow-up. I hope it can be helpful.

[gucci 10]

This is a drill. Some of you might find it useful.

[wind_ 11]

This is a drill. Some of you might find it useful.

 

Thanks gucci. This is very helpful. Looks like when we see increasing volume, we steepen the container. Am I correct to say that?

[gucci 10]

Thanks gucci. This is very helpful. Looks like when we see increasing volume, we steepen the container. Am I correct to say that?

 

My answer will not give you any confidence. And that is what it is all about. Think... Look at the charts. It should work anytime.

 

You are right, but do not forget the context,i.e. where you are in the sequence and what happens to the LTL.

Edited October 19, 2010 by gucci