The Price / Volume Relationship

[gucci 10]

The thin lines do NOT end at 10:30. They continue, underneath the medium lines, which as shown, are incorrect

 

The medium 2R gaussian is wrong. Price must close outside the olive RTL before it can reach the p3 of the medium sequence. The olive RTL defines the container for the medium B2B. The thick B2B is actually medium.

 

 

Well then just post your corrected version of the chart.

[gucci 10]

1. No, the thin lines are correct. It's just that you can't see the thin lines that continue beyond 10:30 because they are hidden by the medium lines.

2. Correct.

3. Correct

4. At the close of the 10:30 bar we can draw the olive RTL. We can then clone it to give us the olive LTL. The LTL is positioned so that it contains all of the price action up to that point in time. This would mean that the LTL has to be positioned at the high of the 10:10 bar, where it is shown. This creates the container for our medium B2B which is being created by the thin b2b2r2b sequence, which extends with further cycles of 2r2b inside the olive RTL.

5. Correct. We cannot begin the medium 2R until price closes outside the olive RTL, and we cannot have a thick B2B until we complete the medium B2B2R2B.

 

Think one more time. The chart was from Spyder.

Edited October 14, 2010 by gucci

[savarez 10]

Think one more time. The chart was from Spyder.

Is he immune to mistakes? He has warned about referring to older annotations.........

perhaps you might like to offer a detailed alternative if you feel that my explanation is wrong.

Edited October 14, 2010 by savarez

[zt379 10]

1. No, the thin lines are correct. It's just that you can't see the thin lines that continue beyond 10:30 because they are hidden by the medium lines.

2. Correct.

3. Correct

4. At the close of the 10:30 bar we can draw the olive RTL. We can then clone it to give us the olive LTL. The LTL is positioned so that it contains all of the price action up to that point in time. This would mean that the LTL has to be positioned at the high of the 10:10 bar, where it is shown. This creates the container for our medium B2B which is being created by the thin b2b2r2b sequence, which extends with further cycles of 2r2b inside the olive RTL.

5. Correct. We cannot begin the medium 2R until price closes outside the olive RTL, and we cannot have a thick B2B until we complete the medium B2B2R2B.

 

thx again savarez.

so the annotations on that chart are essential wrong?

We should only have a thin b2b2r2b2r2b, and only a medium B2B and only a think B (the first B of B2B)?

 

re: #4. If an x2x (b2b here) gets us to a P2 then wouldn't the Olive P2 need to be where the thin b2b ends , being 11.05 now that we're saying the medium B2B g's should be thin ?

Wouldn't a P2 need to be correctly positioned in order to see if we have a VE of the LTL?

 

In other words if the Olive P2 was positioned where the thin b2b ends (11.05) then subsequent price bars at 11.15 and 11. 20 would have VE'd its LTL, which in turn would determine subsequent containers ?

I don't understand the logic of selecting a "previous" bar (10.10) to place a P2 so that it encompasses price action "now".

 

gucci, thx for posting that Spydertrader chart snippet to begin with and the subsequent questions, but if the majority of the annotations on that snippet are incorrect could you help explain the questions you gave and give any answers?

 

Any help in understanding how to determine fractals is profoundly appreciated.

Everything seems to hinge on this understanding..thx

Edited October 14, 2010 by zt379

[zt379 10]

Is he immune to mistakes? He has warned about referring to older annotations.........

perhaps you might like to offer a detailed alternative if you feel that my explanation is wrong.

 

... but why would the method of constructing 3 levels of g's from thin to thick alter over time?

Has the way "binary" is defined or used altered?

and if so then how is that determined?

 

Is this so confusing because I'm just stupid ?

[gucci 10]

Is he immune to mistakes? He has warned about referring to older annotations.........

perhaps you might like to offer a detailed alternative if you feel that my explanation is wrong.

 

 

Post your corrected version of a chart. Then we can talk. I would go on a limb and say that the chart from Spyder was correct. He was talking about paying attention to the contexts of the discussions. (Spyder you may interject any time.) See what patrader said about detailed explanations.

[zt379 10]

Post your corrected version of a chart. Then we can talk. I would go on a limb and say that the chart from Spyder was correct. He was talking about paying attention to the contexts of the discussions. (Spyder you may interject any time.) See what patrader said about detailed explanations.

 

the only way I can see the Olive P2 being correct on the 10.10 bar (where Spydertrader put it) is if the (x2x), B2B started at the 9.55 bar, being decreasing volume to increasing black volume through that 10.05 IBGS,OB. Seeing that we only have an orange RTL that price has BO of on that 10.05 OB, this would then put a P2 of the same fractal as orange outside the orange RTL and so give us an Olive (same fractal as Orange) P2 at 10.10.

 

This however, if correct, would lead to me asking the question why do we have a faster (thin) guassian at all from the 10.05 bar?

 

as that snippet stands, we have an Olive P2 at 10.10 before any B2B has been completed/annotated.? !!

Edited October 14, 2010 by zt379

[savarez 10]

 

re: #4. If an x2x (b2b here) gets us to a P2 then wouldn't the Olive P2 need to be where the thin b2b ends , being 11.05 now that we're saying the medium B2B g's should be thin ?

One step at a time:

10:05 bar bo's the orange rtl and we form the skinny green tape. This must contain the skinny b2b. Price must close outside the b2b container in order to form a 2r container on the same fractal level.

 

10:25 (red bar) closes outside the green skinny tape, to give us the skinny 2r red tape. Our skinny b2b container ends on the 10:20 bar. This defines olive p2.

 

10:30 closes outside our skinny 2r tape, forming a new green skinny 2b tape and we now have olive p3. We draw the olive RTL. The RTL is cloned to give the LTL. For geometric reasons it is drawn to the high of 10:10 instead of 10:20 in order to contain all of the price action. This makes 10:10 appear to be olive p2.

 

The skinny b2b2r2b (skinny green tape, skinny red tape, skinny green tape) construct the olive B2B medium container. Price must close outside the B2B container in order to form a 2R container and reach medium p3.

 

If this is wrong, I am hoping that Spydertrader will explain why. I am trying to adhere to the principles illustrated in post #4 http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f34/price-volume-relationship-6320.html#post70030

[savarez 10]

Post your corrected version of a chart. Then we can talk.

Sorry I don't have the data to reconstruct the chart. Why is that necessary for you to contribute to the discussion? I'm sure that we could all benefit from your excellent understanding of how to nest gaussians.

Edited October 14, 2010 by savarez

[zt379 10]

One step at a time:

10:05 bar bo's the orange rtl and we form the skinny green tape. This must contain the skinny b2b. Price must close outside the b2b container in order to form a 2r container on the same fractal level.

 

10:25 (red bar) closes outside the green skinny tape, to give us the skinny 2r red tape. Our skinny b2b container ends on the 10:20 bar. This defines olive p2.

 

10:30 closes outside our skinny 2r tape, forming a new green skinny 2b tape and we now have olive p3. We draw the olive RTL. The RTL is cloned to give the LTL. For geometric reasons it is drawn to the high of 10:10 instead of 10:20 in order to contain all of the price action. This makes 10:10 appear to be olive p2.

 

The skinny b2b2r2b (skinny green tape, skinny red tape, skinny green tape) construct the olive B2B medium container. Price must close outside the B2B container in order to form a 2R container and reach medium p3.

 

If this is wrong, I am hoping that Spydertrader will explain why. I am trying to adhere to the principles illustrated in post #4 http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/f34/price-volume-relationship-6320.html#post70030

 

yes I'm with you except for two issues.

1. I still don't understand, nor have seen in the many threads on this, why or where a P2 is re- positioned backwards in order to contain all price action.

This would alter the concept of VE's would it not?

 

2. As the 10.05 OB has indeed BO of the Orange RTL, then why do we have thin g's from 10.05 ?

Is it a definitive that we will always have thin g's?

It has often been shown (annotated) that this is not so.

In other words, why are those thin g's not medium, which is essentially the debate regarding how/why/where are we to understand what fractal the guassian is to be annotate as.

 

Indeed, if it was the case that the first x2x that BO of an equal weighted RTL, that we see in real time was always to be annotated as thin g's and there after we would build the nested dom and non-dom legs as you described, non of us would be in confusion !

 

many thx savarez for your continued feedback and help.

Edited October 14, 2010 by zt379

[gucci 10]

Sorry I don't have the data to reconstruct the chart. Why is that necessary for you to contribute to the discussion? I'm sure that we could all benefit from your excellent understanding of how to nest gaussians.

 

You've suggested the annotations were not corect. I told you the patrader's explanation offered you the beef on the silver plate. You think you do not have the data. All of the charts we are talking about are available. I've posted references to them. How much more data do you need?.

 

And my understanding about the Gaussians... you know the market is still open.

[vienna 10]

Spyder, may I ask a basic question about procedure: If I understand the process correctly, one starts with the smallest fractal- the tape- since every larger fractal is confirmed by the next smaller one, and because e.g. traverses are composed of tapes.

 

So the process works by drawing tapes, then finding pt 1,2,3 of the traverses, created by the tapes, and then finding pt 1,2,3 of the channels etc.?

 

I am asking this because I have seen charts which do not even contain tapes (Mr. Black comes to mind)... is that because s experienced annotators do not need to annotate the finer stuff because it has become second nature or is it because this (the charts in which the tapes are not annotated) represent a coarser level (=Forest) of trading? So- it seems the proper way is doing this from the smallest fractal up?

[zt379 10]

You've suggested the annotations were not corect. I told you the patrader's explanation offered you the beef on the silver plate. You think you do not have the data. All of the charts we are talking about are available. I've posted references to them. How much more data do you need?.

 

And my understanding about the Gaussians... you know the market is still open.

 

Reading over your questions and patraders answers...here for convenience.....

1. Why does the sequence for the thin lines (thing, goat, tape, whatever) end at

10:30 ?

 

2. Why is the trough for B2B for the medium lines located at 10:45 and not at 10:35 ?

 

3. Why is the trough for B2B for the thick lines located at 11:10 and not at 10:55 ?

 

4. Why did Spyder tell ehorn he should be able to see three levels of Gaussians here ?(use the chart of Spyder of the previous day)

 

5. Why did the market form something on the price panel at those B2Bs ?

 

6. Why did Spyder put this blue point 2 at the the end of the last (thick) B2B ?

 

#1. Order of events completed on thin line fractal(fastest fractal shown with lines)

 

#2.The trough(10:45) location is the first decreasing red(non-dominant) bar after thin line fractal order of events completion and is immediately followed by an increasing black (dominant) volume bar.

The 10:35 bar is decreasing black volume bar but price is still contained in the taped two bar formation therefore still dominant.

 

#3.Same reasons for trough location as was given to question 2 but for nesting one slower fractal.

The 10:55 bar is increasing black volume bar plus price is contained in the taped two bar formation therefore it's still dominant .

#4.The orders of events was stretched out with no non-dominant order of events(faster fractal)?

 

#5. Because of the non-dominant volume bar which broke out of the taped two bar formation

 

#6.Because there was no non-dominant order of events completed during the last dominant order of events(faster fractal).

 

the difference of opinion, it seems, is how can you, gucci, be correct if indeed the medium 2R leg (container) needs to be outside its B2B leg (container), being the Olive RTL.?

 

I'm not saying your wrong btw.

I don't know who is wrong or right.

I am most certainly grateful for your efforts to explain how to understand why/how/where guassians are to be annotated.

 

I have thrown into the discussion, why, from the 10.05 bar, do we have thin g's to start with?

The suggestion, as I see it (and yes I maybe wrong etc..etc..) is that the trough of a B2B (ie: 10.45 and 11.10) being on a bar that closes outside of a faster (thinner) fractal rtl, designates that trough to a slower (thicker) fractal?

 

Even though the bars that those troughs appear on are still within the Olive RTL?

 

As I still don't understand why we annotated thin g's to start with I fail to see how to know in real time which fractal the gaussian is to be annotated on from the P1 at 10.05?

Edited October 14, 2010 by zt379

[gucci 10]

Reading over your questions and patraders answers...here for convenience.....

the difference of opinion, it seems, is how can you, gucci, be correct if indeed the medium 2R leg (container) needs to be outside its B2B leg (container), being the Olive RTL.?

 

 

The market is always right. So we are not talking about some f opinioins or anything else.

 

Think in container terms.

[Spydertrader 10]

For those having difficulty understanding the information gucci has attempted to convey, might I suggest continuing the discussion from a slightly different orientation (in an effort to 'fast-forward' the application of said information onto 'present day'). Doing so, allows everyone to 'set aside' that which provides them difficulty - with the goal being to return to reading gucci's words after having the ability to understand 'part' of what gucci hopes to get you to see. Once one solves part of a problem, by definition, one then has a different problem before them.

 

The market begins a new cycle (for all fractals) at 14:15 (Eastern Time) yesterday (10-13-2010). Start the annotation process from that point in time.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

 

"There is only one problem in life: How do you go about the process of solving problems."

[nkhoi 10]

Is he immune to mistakes? ...

pretty much as the chart will be dissected many times over.

[wind_ 11]

My view for Wed 13 Oct 2010.

 

I'm interested to see how others annotate yesterday to start the discussion. Thanks!

[savarez 10]

The market begins a new cycle (for all fractals) at 14:15 (Eastern Time) yesterday (10-13-2010). Start the annotation process from that point in time.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

Thanks for the clue. Here's a shot at today, but even with hindsight, it's hard to tell which gaussian belongs on which fractal level. My skinny b2b2r2b came unstuck at 15:30 yesterday (oops) when p3 fell below p1 (not permitted of course). Without some guidance for distinguishing fractal level for each container,the nesting seems to come unravelled pretty quickly.

Edited October 14, 2010 by savarez

[Spydertrader 10]

If I understand the process correctly, one starts with the smallest fractal- the tape- since every larger fractal is confirmed by the next smaller one, and because e.g. traverses are composed of tapes.

 

One begins the process of learning to annotate by understanding the ten cases presented at the beginning of this thread. These ten cases provide a foundation for accuracy and precision.

 

So the process works by drawing tapes, then finding pt 1,2,3 of the traverses, created by the tapes, and then finding pt 1,2,3 of the channels etc.?

 

The process 'works' when a trader has learned to 'see' the order of events develop on three fractals (one above, and one below, the trading fractal)

 

I am asking this because I have seen charts which do not even contain tapes (Mr. Black comes to mind)... is that because s experienced annotators do not need to annotate the finer stuff because it has become second nature or is it because this (the charts in which the tapes are not annotated) represent a coarser level (=Forest) of trading?

 

People annotate in different ways based on how the initially learned to 'see' the market. When I first learned about the Price / Volume Relationship, I did so within the context of having all tool sets (coarse, medium and fine) available and on my computer screens. As a result, my brain would often 'see' "what the YM was doing" prior to the close of an ES five minute bar. Even after removing all medium and fine tools (YM, STR-SQU, DOM, OTR Charts) from my screens, I could still 'see' the YM doing its thing.

 

This contruct didn't, in and of itself, provide an advantage. It simple allowed me to see the structure at various levels, and as such, did not require me to anotate a tape. After all, I could see when a specific tape ended. I didn't need lines to show me when the process had completed.

 

Later, when attempting to transfer the process of learning this stuff to others, I had to re-introduce all levels of annotation, so others might 'see' that which my brain learned in a different fashion.

 

So- it seems the proper way is doing this from the smallest fractal up?

 

I've found the best way for people to learn is to take a known entity and annotate from beginning to end. The lessons learned from doing so provides the contruct for all fractals moving forward.

 

By now, you should absolutely know the market ended the contruction of an up channel at 14:15 Eastern Time yesterday (10-13-2010, close of bar). Once you can know with 100% certainty that the down channel has completed, you can then go back, and create annotations which indicate same.

 

Then, you will have learned how to logically, correctly, and completely annotate a chart. Whether or not you realize that you've learned this skill is another matter entirely.

 

- Spydertrader

Edited October 14, 2010 by Spydertrader
spelling correction

[vienna 10]

I have on my chart 3 FTT's (of the big upchannel): at 11:10, at 12.45 and at 14.15

 

My view for Wed 13 Oct 2010.

 

I'm interested to see how others annotate yesterday to start the discussion. Thanks!

[vienna 10]

Ok thanks a lot that helps... I understood the 10 building blocks and am stringing them together... , making bigger blocks etc.

 

Yes I had the end of the upchannel marked, after the FTT occurred and it broke out I had the down- channel drawn projecting into today..

 

One begins the process of learning to annotate by ...

 

By now, you should absolutely know the market ended the contruction of an up channel at 14:15 Eastern Time yesterday (10-13-2010, close of bar). Once you can know with 100% certainty that the down channel has completed, you can then go back, and create annotations which indicate same.

 

Then, you will have learned how to logically, correctly, and completely annotate a chart. Whether or not you realize that you've learned this skill is another matter entirely.

 

- Spydertrader

[Spydertrader 10]

Without some guidance for distinguishing fractal level for each container,the nesting seems to come unravelled pretty quickly.

 

The market always provides the guidance you seek. One simply remains patient until the market has provided certainty for your specific level of knowledge, skills and experience. Once the market can no longer be constructing one thing, it must be constucting another thing.

 

Later, once you've developed the necessary knowledge, skills and experience, you'll not need to wait as long to have reached 'certainty' with respect to what the market has constructed.

 

- Spydertrader

[Spydertrader 10]

the suggestion might be that when we have a VE we (edit) have pushed the P2 of that container furthr out so will need to have a NEW P3 and there for a new RTL ?

 

You might wish to expand on this point somewhat. Note the chart snippet I posted and the blue arrows.

 

- Spydertrader

[Breakeven 10]

You might wish to expand on this point somewhat. Note the chart snippet I posted and the blue arrows.

 

- Spydertrader

 

I have noted the differences I see at the blue arrows.

 

1. DV, VE's both containers.

 

2. IV IBGS. VE's both containers.

 

3. IV VE's both containers.

 

4. DV, does not VE both containers.

 

Each case has a close beyond the red/pink LTL. As the outcome is different, "closing int he zone" must not be a factor.

[Breakeven 10]

I want to thank everyone for the discussion of the "three levels" chart snipit. I have spent an inordinate amount of time studying this without success. I hope that with Patraders answers I can find some resolution.

 

Gucci asked: Why is the trough for B2B for the medium lines (thing, goat, faster fractal traverse, whatever) located at 10:45 and not at 10:35 ?

 

But, my question has always been: Why is the medium B2B not at 10:25? Which is the point where the gaussians "should" (haha) nest. See attached.