The Price / Volume Relationship

[gucci 10]

This chart from Spyder, may be helpful to understand the fractal nature of Gaussians.

 

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=2205173

 

Also see the discussion for the context : pages 1630-1636.

 

Forums - Iterative Refinement

 

Spyder, I guess you would allow.

 

 

In order to keep the discussion about fractal nature of the Gaussians afloat, here are some questions. All questions refer to the chart of Spyder quoted above. All times eastern and end of the bar.

 

1. Why does the sequence for the thin lines (thing, goat, tape, whatever) end at

10:30 ?

 

2. Why is the trough for B2B for the medium lines (thing, goat, faster fractal traverse, whatever) located at

10:45 and not at 10:35 ?

 

3. Why is the trough for B2B for the thick lines (thing, goat, trading fractal traverse, whatever) located at

11:10 and not at 10:55 ?

 

4. Why did Spyder tell ehorn he should be able to see three levels of Gaussians here ?(use the chart of Spyder of the previous day)

 

5. Why did the market formed something on the price panel at those B2Bs ?

 

6. Why did Spyder put this blue point 2 at the the end of the last (thick) B2B ?

 

7. Why does this site suck so much forcing me to repost this for the third time because of some silly time limit ?

 

Enjoy.

Edited October 10, 2010 by gucci

[wind_ 11]

Note where all three fractals come together and where all three fractals diverge.

 

Within Point 3 movement of a Channel, I see 3 segments where all the lines point to the same direction. Marked in green circle in this chart.

Edited October 10, 2010 by wind_
Just realized that my drawing is point 3 movement of a channel

[gucci 10]

Gucci,

Thanks for the links.

How can you pick out a particular discussion from such a large thread? You must have some kind of indexing into that thread?

 

Yes, of course I have. The indexing is called "search function". You can use (faster AND fractal) for example or (*aussian*) and enjoy the results. After a while you will understand what Spyder and Jack meant with " doing the work". Enjoy it. Do not pay any attention to my excentrical nature or lack of humor.

[Spydertrader 10]

Within Point 3 movement of a Channel, I see 3 segments where all the lines point to the same direction. Marked in green circle in this chart.

 

Great. Since you've completed the area from Point Three to the FTT (for a chanel), all you need to do now is create a very similar construct for Point One to Point Two of a channel.

 

- Spydertrader

[Spydertrader 10]

Is it possible that 2R B2B gaussian happened within one bar? I don't see any other increasing black volume to annotate B2B gaussian for that green up traverse.

 

The Bar to which you refer represents an Intra-Bar Gaussian Shift (I.B.G.S.) - where one Gaussian line ends and another begins. If you pull up a copy of the YM (for this specific area) you should be able to see a B2B form across several bars (instead of just one bar).

 

In other words, ask your question in a slightly different fashion, and you already know the answer. Asking the question as you did, implies something other than you intended.

 

Again, take a look at the YM for this specific area in an effort to 'see' that which the ES currently shows as obscured.

 

- Spydertrader

[Spydertrader 10]

So let me make sure my understanding of the nesting is correct by answering your questions without looking at any chart first.

 

I'm not entirely certain you have the Order of Events correct once one sees R2R 2B or B2B 2R. Please review what you must see once the market has shown itself to have reached Point Three. Everything else looked fine. With respect to your 'Big Picture' gaussians, did you arrive at a Point Two in the big picture?

 

Remember, when a dominant channel begins at its Point One, a traverse and a tape also begin at their Point One.

 

- Spydertrader

[wind_ 11]

all you need to do now is create a very similar construct for Point One to Point Two of a channel.

 

Attached is my drawing for Pt1 to Pt2 channel's gaussians. After gucci's post regarding where to put the through of B2B/R2R, seems like where one puts it is important and I'm not sure whether the way I draw it is correct. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks..

[Spydertrader 10]

I'm not sure whether the way I draw it is correct.

 

O.K. look away from the charts again (for a moment).

 

Review this post.

 

See how the B2B forms on a single fractal. Note (by looking at the Volume Bars themselves) how a B2B forms the Point Two.

 

Since the market exists on a fractal basis, all fractals must contain the same attributes.

 

Whether B2B or R2R, the market creates the exact same picture in terms of how a given fractal arrives at a Point Two.

 

Make sure the faster fractals 'nest' correctly by ensuring each faster fractal shows the exact same attributes as the one above.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

[nkhoi 10]

Attached is my drawing for Pt1 to Pt2 channel's gaussians. After gucci's post regarding where to put the through of B2B/R2R, seems like where one puts it is important and I'm not sure whether the way I draw it is correct. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks..

 

look at post #2135, read the caption slowly...

[gucci 10]

O.K. look away from the charts again (for a moment).

 

Review this post.

 

See how the B2B forms on a single fractal. Note (by looking at the Volume Bars themselves) how a B2B forms the Point Two.

 

Since the market exists on a fractal basis, all fractals must contain the same attributes.

 

Whether B2B or R2R, the market creates the exact same picture in terms of how a given fractal arrives at a Point Two.

 

Make sure the faster fractals 'nest' correctly by ensuring each faster fractal shows the exact same attributes as the one above.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

 

Spyder, concerning my post with the questions.

 

Would you please review it and either confirm or reject it for the sake of the people reading it. I think a lot of people put a lot of trust in your opinions. I'm sure the answers to the questions can provide a lot of clarity for those still learning. Feel free to say this is not the case.

 

If you try to present the material differently this time or the chart I was referring to in my post is off topic, please let the readers know. I'm sure they are reluctant whether they have to embark on answering the questions asked or not. This may cost them a lot of time and frustration. And you know this is notthe way the stuff is transferred in a most efficient way possible.

 

Regards.

[Spydertrader 10]

Concerning my post with the questions. Would you please review it and either confirm or reject it for the sake of the people reading it.

 

I cannot know what information might result in the AHA!! required for any specific individual. However, I can know that which helped one certainly has the possibility of helping another along the path.

 

However, having said that, I might suggest people follow along with the instructions posted here first, and if (after a while), they still do not see that which the market has provided, then that might be a good time to dig deeper into other areas.

 

Remember, how I annotated a chart (in the old threads) had primarily to do with my attempts to get across a certain concept (making things easier [well, somewhat easier] for people to 'see' what the hell I was talking about).

 

In this thread, I've focused on showing people how to teach themselves how to learn accuracy and precision.

 

A subtle difference, yes, but an important distinction none-the-less.

 

Feel free to continue to provide that which you feel others might find helpful.

 

- Spydertrader

Edited October 10, 2010 by Spydertrader
corrected spelling error

[sambrown 10]

I'm not entirely certain you have the Order of Events correct once one sees R2R 2B or B2B 2R. Please review what you must see once the market has shown itself to have reached Point Three. Everything else looked fine. With respect to your 'Big Picture' gaussians, did you arrive at a Point Two in the big picture?

 

Remember, when a dominant channel begins at its Point One, a traverse and a tape also begin at their Point One.

 

- Spydertrader

Here's my hand drawing of a point 1, 2 and 3 of a channel with their sub fractals.

Based on this drawing, my "Big Picture" just completed the first 3 segments and point 2 of the channel has not been arrived yet.

[Spydertrader 10]

Based on this drawing, my "Big Picture" just completed the first 3 segments and point 2 of the channel has not been arrived yet.

 

Well, unfortunately, this is not what you have drawn in your attached.

 

Think on this for a moment.

 

Every container arrives at a Point Two in the exact same fashion. We differentiate the various fractals by Gaussian Line thickness, but each individual fractal container still travels through the Order of Events in the very same way as every other fractal.

 

To arrive at a Point Two of a container, a faster container is required.

 

Each container (for every fractal) must complete the Order of Events.

 

What container builds the channels?

 

What container builds that which builds the channels?

 

How do you annotate these three containers in your Volume Pane?

 

Now, given that you know all fractals must complete, and given that you know what the Order of Events is (for any fractal), draw how one arrives at a Point Two of a dominant channel.

 

Remember, we have not progressed passed the Point Two of the channel in this drill (yet).

 

- Spydertrader

[sambrown 10]

Every container arrives at a Point Two in the exact same fashion. We differentiate the various fractals by Gaussian Line thickness, but each individual fractal container still travels through the Order of Events in the very same way as every other fractal.

What container builds the channels?

What container builds that which builds the channels?

How do you annotate these three containers in your Volume Pane?

I needto get this drawing correct. Here's another attempt.

Each higher level container is built by 3 lower level containers.

[vienna 10]

One issue with the ET threads is that there is so much info, thousands of charts posted from different people, which might be correct or not, personal stuff in between etc... the issue for me is not so much "doing the work" but finding where the info is clearly presented, like in a textbook... I am sure "doing the work" was not referring to wading through thousands of pages, but to reading a statement about a market truth and then doing drills to prove it to oneself? For example, i am confused about some of the gaussian notation, but have not seen one clear exposition on how to annotate them.. my fault, for sure, but I simply do not find the time to search for that info in thousands of pages.

I am using the videos and the Channels for building wealth document and find that quite helpful... but am still confused about where to find the info in a more concise way... or do I really have to tackle the ET threads and read the whole thing?

 

Yes, of course I have. The indexing is called "search function". You can use (faster AND fractal) for example or (*aussian*) and enjoy the results. After a while you will understand what Spyder and Jack meant with " doing the work". Enjoy it. Do not pay any attention to my excentrical nature or lack of humor.

[vienna 10]

One other question I have is what happened to the indicators on the 5 min chart? In the building channels for building wealth document they are present on the 5 min es charts (macd, fast and slow stoch), and Jack refers to them... but now in this thread they are not? Is this a new development or are they still used for sweeping an a finer level later on?

[Spydertrader 10]

I needto get this drawing correct. Here's another attempt.

Each higher level container is built by 3 lower level containers.

 

Alright.

 

Now, we are getting somewhere. You've narrowed things down to a binary choice.

 

Which Trough best represents the market fractals in terms of 'nesting'?

 

You've drawn things one way (as did Nkhoi in an earlier post), but another possible way also exists.

 

See Attached.

 

 

You (and Nkhoi) show nesting of fractals at the second trough of the diagram. You could have chosen to nest within the first trough of the diagram.

 

What you must now do is determine logically which of these two techniques best describes the market (any market).

 

Look at the attached snippet of your drawing, and then look at an area of the market where you know how the market presented itself. Use the YM if you have to, but test both answers in an effort to arrive at the correct answer.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

[cnms2 10]

One other question ...?

Can't understand why you decided not to follow Spydertrader's advice (posted right on this page): furgeddaboud other threads than this ...

[Spydertrader 10]

One other question I have is what happened to the indicators on the 5 min chart? In the building channels for building wealth document they are present on the 5 min es charts (macd, fast and slow stoch), and Jack refers to them... but now in this thread they are not? Is this a new development or are they still used for sweeping an a finer level later on?

 

Indicators represent a relatively recent phenomenon when it comes to trading - growing exponentially with the advent of automated charting software. Prior to the invention of the personal computer, traders (who used charts) drew them by hand. These hand drawn charts contained two indicators - Price and Volume. Since markets have existed long before the invention of (squiggly line type) indicators, I see no reason to include that which plays no role in the Price / Volume Relationship.

 

However, plenty of information does exist with respect to the use of The MACD and The Stochastic Indicator for trading (my first Equities Journal used The MACD and The Stochastic Indicator). Feel free to use whatever information you feel best meets your needs.

 

- Spydertrader

[vienna 10]

Ok. Can you then direct me to a post/thread (here or otherwise) where it is clearly explained how Gaussians are annotated for a beginner? Maybe its there and I am just not seeing it. For example, I have seen several "B2B" gaussians drawn that start with a big RED bar, no idea why.

 

I learned a lot from Bundlemakers video about channels. Does a similar resource exist for Gaussians? (I saw Eric's video about Gaussians, but it still left many questions).

 

Can't understand why you decided not to follow Spydertrader's advice (posted right on this page): furgeddaboud other threads than this ...

[Spydertrader 10]

For example, i am confused about some of the gaussian notation, but have not seen one clear exposition on how to annotate them..

 

I'm not entirely clear on what you believe we've been discussing over the last 48 hours or so, but I apologize if you've failed to find the information helpful.

 

- Spydertrader

[vienna 10]

Like I said, probably my fault, perhaps there are some basics that I am missing.You guys seem to be quite ahead on the curve. I would have to ask some pretty basic questions, and thought I save everyone some time if a document exists that clears that up...

 

I'm not entirely clear on what you believe we've been discussing over the last 48 hours or so, but I apologize if you've failed to find the information helpful.

 

- Spydertrader

[patrader 10]

go to refinement thread page #264 look for gaussian drill

 

Were you referring to this page? Forums - Spydertrader's Jack Hershey Futures Trading Journal drill&pagenumber=264

[vienna 10]

No... I was just trying to find a clear summary on how to draw gaussians... I looked at that drill but do not think I could complete it if I do not know how to draw them correctly.

 

Were you referring to this page? Forums - Spydertrader's Jack Hershey Futures Trading Journal drill&pagenumber=264

[Spydertrader 10]

Like I said, probably my fault, perhaps there are some basics that I am missing.You guys seem to be quite ahead on the curve. I would have to ask some pretty basic questions, and thought I save everyone some time if a document exists that clears that up...

 

Perhaps, you missed the following ...

 

http://www.traderslaboratory.com/forums/34/price-volume-relationship-6320-54.html#post104382

 

Do not think for one moment you are alone in this journey. No doubt, a number of newer folks (and even a number of folks who have studied this for quite some time) have the same problem you currently experience.

 

Anyone interested should feel welcome to contribute to this discussion.