The Price / Volume Relationship

[rs5 10]

Thursday 22 April 2010

[MomentumMike 10]

Thursday, 04/22/10

 

I thought this day was somewhat difficult. I tried to apply info garnered from yesterday's posts, in particular:

I preferred to annotate differently that area: pt2 to pt3 decreasing volume.

 

That was very beneficial. Thanks cnms2 and all.

 

Comments appreciated.

[gucci 10]

Hi gucci,

 

Thank you for sharing your valuable volume comparison skills.

 

I have two questions for you---

 

1. You said: you could mentally (or actually) go to a higher (slower) resolution level and compare the highlighted areas---For the 5 minutes ES chart, what's the higher (lower) resolution level you suggest to use according to your observation? Do you mean to switch to10 min,15min, 30min or 60min in this specific

example?

 

2. You said: Furthermore you can compare the transition of the black volume starting after 11:30 - 11:40 area ---The chart under discussion is rs5's which is CST. Does your 11:30 - 11:40 area correspond to Bar 24 to Bar 26? TIA

 

Hi NYCMB,

 

to 1

 

Please understand, I did not suggest any specific resolution. Furthermore I do not think this example was specific. On the contrary this example was rather elementary. Price moves from point 2 to point 3 in a non dominant fashion that is on decreasing volume. It doesn't matter what resolution you chose to compare the aforementioned areas - the volume at point 3 is decreasing.

 

to 2

 

I referred to the chart in cnms2 post, so the times in question correspond to his chart.

 

FWIW.

[stepan7 10]

I would like to share some my experience related to how gain better understanding of this method.

 

I had posted a few daily screenshots on one of the website for Russian’s traders.

 

People started asking question: “What’s this?” “What’s that?”, “Where are entrees, exits?”

 

I say Ok, I will explain it through Skype and shared screen .

 

Most common questions were:

 

- What The P/V Relationship is?

 

- What Gaussian is?

 

- What Tape is?

 

- What Traverse is?

 

- How to they become Channel?

 

- Where are points 1, 2, 3?

 

- How the Left Side of the Market becoming the Right Side?

 

- Why did you enter Long, Short, Reverse?

 

- What Formation is?

 

- Why you hold?

 

- Where Hold button is?

 

- Signal for Change? We never heard of it. Is it secret indicator?

 

And remember: I have to come up with answers in real time.

And people saw what I am doing.

And where price went after I said where it should go.

 

By doing few sessions like that I gain much better understanding and knowledge for myself.

 

My point is - try to explain what are you doing to someone, who really interested to learn this method. It will do great work for you.

 

On the other note, now I understand Spydertrader and admire his multiyear hard work to transfer knowledge to us.

 

Spydertrader,

 

Thank you!

 

Stepan

Edited April 23, 2010 by stepan7

[rs5 10]

Friday 23 April 2010

[stepan7 10]

I received few requests from readers of this thread about teaching, sharing screens etc.

 

Just to be clear. I made few sessions for people from Russia:

 

(1) who have very poor English skills;

 

(2) or their English skills are next to nothing;

 

(3) or they don’t know English at all.

 

None of requestors is falling into any of above three categories.

 

At the end of each session I told folks to take dictionary and read this thread.

 

This thread contains more than enough information necessary.

 

All I can do for requestors just repeat the same thing - read this thread.

 

Stepan

Edited April 24, 2010 by stepan7

[cnms2 10]

Friday 23 April 2010

I think that those four laterals add clarity.

[MKTr 10]

I am helping a few friends learn the JHM. I think "reading the thread" is right on target as the best advice. In an effort to help myself learn more I also occaissionaly write up a summary or some other exercise. Here is a hack at describing a single fractal of tape drawing with a few items I feel need emphasis. Feeback is always welcome. If I messed up something I am always willing to make a correction or would support having it deleted.

 

Lately I have been studying Jack Hershey's material on IF1 IF2 and APA (including HVS trading). Would some of that material be appropriate here?

 

Thanks to Spyder and the community for the thread and productive interaction.

 

MK

[cnms2 10]

... Feedback is always welcome. If I messed up something ...

Firstly, I believe your volume data contains a few errors. Compare it to rs5's.

Secondly, your pt1 for the up trend doesn't seem right.

[MKTr 10]

Thanks cnms2.

 

I found a code error to explain the volume differences. Fixing that showed peaking volume and a new pt 1. Little things mean a lot!

 

MK

[Ezzy 10]

For discussions sake, last Wednesday's chart (RS's revised example) to be correct, we're saying: pt1 to pt2 = pt2 to pt3 = pt3 to VE as far as the fractal level (tape/traverse) they are on. I have a hard time with pt2 to pt3 leg being the same level as the others. Doesn't seem like it has the same components as the others.

[cnms2 10]

For discussions sake, last Wednesday's chart (RS's revised example) to be correct, we're saying: pt1 to pt2 = pt2 to pt3 = pt3 to VE as far as the fractal level (tape/traverse) they are on. I have a hard time with pt2 to pt3 leg being the same level as the others. Doesn't seem like it has the same components as the others.

What do you use to differentiate among fractals? What components are you talking about?

[padrotshik 10]

For discussions sake, last Wednesday's chart (RS's revised example) to be correct, we're saying: pt1 to pt2 = pt2 to pt3 = pt3 to VE as far as the fractal level (tape/traverse) they are on. I have a hard time with pt2 to pt3 leg being the same level as the others. Doesn't seem like it has the same components as the others.

 

IMO, take RS5's thursday's chart, where the last portion of wednesay was revised.

Do you have what you're looking for?

[Ezzy 10]

IMO, take RS5's thursday's chart, where the last portion of wednesay was revised.

Do you have what you're looking for?

 

Thanks, I see the revisions but they don't help with the 11:40 to 12:45 section (10:40 to 13:45 on the posted chart). FWIW, I have 9:50 IBGS on Friday (10:50 on the posted chart) as the new Pt1 up.

 

What do you use to differentiate among fractals? What components are you talking about?

 

Differentiating fractals: Pace level, volume peaks/troughs, and BBT/Tape breaks. On fast to extreme pace levels you might not see the BBT's, the slower pace levels is where they tend to show up.

 

Components for this example: Looking for a complete volume cycle on each leg. Also want to see increasing volume on a tape break or it's a fan with building block tapes within.

 

In summary while I can see your view, and Spyder seems to have verified it, RS's original view is what I had worked out in RT. Feels like I'm having to force the gaussian cycles to see it otherwise. 11:40 to 14:00 looks like is all non dominant 2 to 3 volume, with a full b2b 2r 2b volume cycle.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Ezzy
typo

[MKTr 10]

26 Apr 2010 5' ES.

 

MK

[rs5 10]

Monday 26 April 2010

[rs5 10]

Lately I have been studying Jack Hershey's material on IF1 IF2 and APA (including HVS trading). Would some of that material be appropriate here?

 

 

What does " IF1 IF2 and APA (including HVS trading)" mean please?

[Gregor_S 10]

My chart for Monday 26 April

[TIKITRADER 10]

What does " IF1 IF2 and APA (including HVS trading)" mean please?

 

There is an if1 if 2 apa strategy report floating around someplace.

 

Here is SCT Report that picks up some of this. I will keep looking and get back here when I find it

[TIKITRADER 10]

ahhhh ! here is one of them

 

edit: this drawing of IF1 IF2 APA was created by Bi9foot. this is not the strategy report. This is a great drawing and explains well.

 

 

now I remember Ezzy searched extensively for these docs and they did not turn up.

Edited April 26, 2010 by TIKITRADER

[TIKITRADER 10]

HVS = High Volatility Stall JH - Method

 

 

 

quote from Spydertrader

 

A. Hitch

As dominant traverses proceed the price change there is, at first, an almost continuous

advance. Therefore, from bar to bar, the offsets and the bar length repeat one after

another. Progress can soften after a period of time and it shows up as a momentary one

or two bar repeat. Repeat means that consecutive nearly identical bars show up. The

bars often do not have the volatility of the prior advancing bars. Volume will flag

somewhat preceding this phenomena. Then the price resumes its prior advance. The

market has momentarily caught its breath, so to speak.

 

B. Dip

Dips are like hitches only they are more pronounced, meaning that a small noticeable

retrace for one bar may occur. The corresponding volume flagging is more pronounced.

 

C. Stall

Stalls are longer hitches and the volatility may not be less than prior bars. Picture it as a

definite pause and dwell period that occurs not too close to the left fractal channel line.

Volume will oscillate somewhat by flagging and then refreshing and flagging again.

D. High Volatility Stall

This formation usually occurs near the limits of the market’s range and early in the day

when volume is brisk and the market opens somewhat near the prior day’s range. A

high volatility stall can be traded at the rate of one cycle per two bars and it can be

traded in both directions with a neutral bias. The tick length of the bars gives a

comfortable value of profit and leaves room for market fills that may not be at the limits

of the lateral values of the range of volatility in a bar.

Edited April 27, 2010 by TIKITRADER

[TIKITRADER 10]

One of the best sections of all the threads regarding the method can be found starting September 1 2007

 

Spydertrader's Jack Hershey Futures Trading Journal

 

Flaws and Internal Formations

 

beginning about page 884

 

Edit: Attached an old chart from Spydertrader that has an HVS market around 10 to 10:30 am. Reminder . . .Chart is from past with annotations that relate to the discussions taking place at that time.

Edited April 27, 2010 by TIKITRADER

[MKTr 10]

What does " IF1 IF2 and APA (including HVS trading)" mean please?

 

TIKI hit the material I was referencing on the money. It is basically the binary logic used to keep you safe when market direction is in doubt (i.e. after a potential FTT until a new trend is verified). IF1 = prepare for a reverse as price passes the previous close against you. IF2 = reverse when price passes the previous bar's extreme against you. Once you execute IF2 or if you reverse/trade for some other reason ON THAT PARTICULAR BAR you then use APA. APA = reverse if price moves against your trade price. You can only do each action once per bar. If you wish, you can then also shift to a faster bar (5' to 1') after APA but only for the duration of the original bar. Then you use IF2 and APA for the remaining time of the original bar using the bars of the faster timeframe. The exception is HVS trading. You stay in the faster timeframe mode until HVS mode is done. Certainly more to talk about but this is a start.

 

I believe it is a part of the mechanics of using the most difficult stuff (Sequences and Signs of Change). Intriguing and harder to implement that you might expect (at least for me).

 

 

I would appreciate any feedback if I got this wrong.

 

MK

[cnms2 10]

... Differentiating fractals: Pace level, volume peaks/troughs, and BBT/Tape breaks. On fast to extreme pace levels you might not see the BBT's, the slower pace levels is where they tend to show up.

 

Components for this example: Looking for a complete volume cycle on each leg. Also want to see increasing volume on a tape break or it's a fan with building block tapes within.

 

In summary while I can see your view, and Spyder seems to have verified it, RS's original view is what I had worked out in RT. Feels like I'm having to force the gaussian cycles to see it otherwise. 11:40 to 14:00 looks like is all non dominant 2 to 3 volume, with a full b2b 2r 2b volume cycle.

At 1050 (attached chart), in real time, the blue highlight seems to show a complete (volume, price) sequence on the L2 fractal.

 

I think one difficulty arises from the fact that on the 5 minute chart at different times during the day different market fractals are observable, function of pace. So we can talk about market fractals, observable fractals, trading fractals. I believe that it is very important how we choose the trading fractal (including the sidelining fractal ), and it may be more important to emphasize the hierarchy of the observable fractals, than that of the market fractals. In the end we are interested in making money and not in making beautiful charts.

[Ezzy 10]

At 1050 (attached chart), in real time, the blue highlight seems to show a complete (volume, price) sequence on the L2 fractal.

 

I think one difficulty arises from the fact that on the 5 minute chart at different times during the day different market fractals are observable, function of pace. So we can talk about market fractals, observable fractals, trading fractals. I believe that it is very important how we choose the trading fractal (including the sidelining fractal ), and it may be more important to emphasize the hierarchy of the observable fractals, than that of the market fractals. In the end we are interested in making money and not in making beautiful charts.

 

I think observable is the key word here. Trying to stick to what is observable on the 5min. There is a lot more to see on each leg on the YM 2min or a 1min ES. For example if you go to a faster time frame, the retraces on the other legs have a full volume cycle. That was missing here (and I can see that on the 5min) which led me to believe it was on a different level.

 

Agree, making money is the end game from all the time spent learning. Thanks for your comments.

 

Regards - EZ