The Price / Volume Relationship

[Spydertrader 10]

Points 2 and 3 form in a very specific way. Would you elaborate on what exactly you had in mind?

 

Volume leads Price, so spend some time looking at Volume.

 

Note the Order of Events.

 

How does Price (by Virtue of Volume) move between Points One and Two?

 

How does Price (by Virtue of Volume) move between Points Two and Three?

 

How does Price (by virtue of Volume) move from Point Three to an FTT?

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

[gucci 10]

Volume leads Price, so spend some time looking at Volume.

 

Note the Order of Events.

 

How does Price (by Virtue of Volume) move between Points One and Two?

 

How does Price (by Virtue of Volume) move between Points Two and Three?

 

How does Price (by virtue of Volume) move from Point Three to an FTT?

 

HTH.

 

 

- Spydertrader

 

 

Thanks. Actually I was rather thinking along the lines of smaller fractals or intrabar Price and Volume actions at those points. Is it unnecessary ? Does encreasing and decreasing Volume, Pace etc. suffice?

[Spydertrader 10]

Thanks. Actually I was rather thinking along the lines of smaller fractals or intrabar Price and Volume actions at those points. Is it unnecessary ? Does encreasing and decreasing Volume, Pace etc. suffice?

 

You may want to review the definition of the word - fractal.

 

- Spydertrader

[romanus 10]

I got a question for those who are using YM for their MADA. Is it possible for YM to go from P2 to P3 of an up container, while the ES is going from P3 to the FTT of the down container, and visa versa.?

 

E.g., today's 1400 on the ES was inside the lateral (it closed outside, but the next bar closed back inside the 1345 lateral) and seemed like P2 of the accel down container. At the same time, YM seemed to complete the down sequence on 1400 bar, which looked like P1 of the new up container.

[Spydertrader 10]

I got a question for those who are using YM for their MADA. Is it possible for YM to go from P2 to P3 of an up container, while the ES is going from P3 to the FTT of the down container, and visa versa.?

 

No.

 

Currently, I do not use the YM as part of my M-A-D-A (nor STR-SQU, Tic Charts nor DOM). While in the past, I used the entire arsenal of medium and fine tools, today, I no longer have a desire to work that hard. As such, I now only use the ES.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

[TIKITRADER 10]

No.

 

Currently, I do not use the YM as part of my M-A-D-A (nor STR-SQU, Tic Charts nor DOM). While in the past, I used the entire arsenal of medium and fine tools, today, I no longer have a desire to work that hard. As such, I now only use the ES.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

 

I took the DOM, str-sqz- tic chart and YM all off my screen for a year now. Just have ES 5 minute. It has been the best thing for me personally. I do keep a monthly and daily chart to reference the bigger picture occasionally that are on a tab hidden until needed.

[TIKITRADER 10]

message double posted, deleted repeat content of second one. no more delete mssg button ?

[gucci 10]

You may want to review the definition of the word - fractal.

 

- Spydertrader

 

Sorry for my sloppiness. You are right, my question in the posted form suggests my ignorance with respect to the meaning of the word fractal. I hope this doesn't represent the state of affairs in reality. (actually I'm quite sure this is not the case ). I hope my inquiring can somehow be made more comprehensible by the following.

When price has finished its movement from pont 1 to point 2 (provided those points were correctly identified by a trader) and starts heading towards point 3, one can easily pinpoint a Price Bar and a corresponding Volume Bar which signify the completion of the formation of point 2. (One of the extremes of this Price Bar sets the volatility of the channel and touches the LTL.) One can then zoom in into this Price Bar (5 min Bar represented by five 1 min Bars for example) in order to understand how exactly it was forming. While I do not suggest to dig deeper down the rabbit hole and split each Price Bar at points 2 and 3, I was wondering whether the differences you were talking about have anything to do with the Price and Volume actions at those points (aka Bars,aka fractals) and not only with the behavior of the market between them?

 

Sorry for the lengthy post and thank you for your support.

[Spydertrader 10]

I was wondering whether the differences you were talking about have anything to do with the Price and Volume actions at those points (aka Bars,aka fractals) and not only with the behavior of the market between them?

 

When you discuss the differences between one minute and five minute bars, you aren't speaking fractally. You are talking timeframe. When objects represent a 'fractal' nature, these objects contain "a mathematically generated pattern that is reproducible at any magnification or reduction" where all attributes remain the same irrespective of scale.

 

As such, (Since you've articulated that your understanding of 'fractal' isn't at issue) I don't understand why you have posed the question - as each and every fractal (by definition) exists in the same fashion as the ones faster (or slower) than it. However, the answer to your question is: No.

 

- Spydertrader

[gucci 10]

When you discuss the differences between one minute and five minute bars, you aren't speaking fractally. You are talking timeframe. When objects represent a 'fractal' nature, these objects contain "a mathematically generated pattern that is reproducible at any magnification or reduction" where all attributes remain the same irrespective of scale.

 

I still can not see the difference. I think this is very important to understand, so bear with me. The fractal nature of the market should suggest that every Price Bar on every timeframe represent a fractal. I mean 15min Bar, 5min Bar, 1hour Bar and so on. When our channel contains six 5min Bars for an example, it represents simply one 30min Bar. How else can you "magnify" or "reduce" the market? Could you elaborate? TIA.

 

 

 

As such, (Since you've articulated that your understanding of 'fractal' isn't at issue) I don't understand why you have posed the question - as each and every fractal (by definition) exists in the same fashion as the ones faster (or slower) than it. However, the answer to your question is: No.

 

- Spydertrader

 

We've learnt a number of various SOC. So I just thought, that points 2 and 3 may represent important contexts for different SOC on a faster timeframe to materialize,hence the question. But it isn't important now anyway.

[cnms2 10]

I still can not see the difference. I think this is very important to understand, so bear with me. The fractal nature of the market should suggest that every Price Bar on every timeframe represent a fractal. I mean 15min Bar, 5min Bar, 1hour Bar and so on. When our channel contains six 5min Bars for an example, it represents simply one 30min Bar. How else can you "magnify" or "reduce" the market? ...

If I may ... Price waveform has a fractal nature, and exists out there, whether you open your charting program or not. To look at that waveform you choose a time frame, a resolution, for your chart. Your 1, 5 or 15 min bars represent that resolution, that gives you the possibility to see a subset of those price fractals. It's like you measure an object's dimensions using a ruler. Your ruler may be marked in whatever units (inches, centimeters, whatever), independent of that object's shape. Obviously, you need to appropriately choose a ruler that allows you to measure whatever you want to.

[gucci 10]

If I may ... Price waveform has a fractal nature, and exists out there, whether you open your charting program or not. To look at that waveform you choose a time frame, a resolution, for your chart. Your 1, 5 or 15 min bars represent that resolution, that gives you the possibility to see a subset of those price fractals. It's like you measure an object's dimensions using a ruler. Your ruler may be marked in whatever units (inches, centimeters, whatever), independent of that object's shape. Obviously, you need to appropriately choose a ruler that allows you to measure whatever you want to.

 

Let me clarify my confusion (or ignorance) by comparing the fractal nature of the market to a fractal nature of a snowflake. Snowflake has a certain pattern whether you look at it or not. If you take just a part of a snowflake and enlarge it, this enlarged part will exhibit the same pattern which the whole snowflake showed. You take just a tiny spot on a snowflake and use a microscope to discern the pattern, the result will be the same - you'll see the same pattern. Now the snowflake has a static nature,whereas the market has a dynamic one. So instead of a microscope you'll need different (faster) timeframes to behold the cycles of the price movement.

[romanus 10]

No.

 

Thank your for the answer.

 

Currently, I do not use the YM as part of my M-A-D-A (nor STR-SQU, Tic Charts nor DOM). While in the past, I used the entire arsenal of medium and fine tools, today, I no longer have a desire to work that hard. As such, I now only use the ES.

As it relates to my own personal pursuit of understanding, I stopped looking at YM quite some time ago. However after your recent suggestion to look at YM within the specific context of the lateral discussion for one specific purpose (WWT inside the lateral), I started thinking that perhaps occasionally (as in very rare), the YM could possibly provide me with the answer where I can't seem to find the answer on ES itself.

 

An example of what I mean is the ES sequence in the attached. Even after the market built the sequence in an opposite direction, I am still unable to determine the correct annotations (A or B in the attached). After looking at YM, in my own personally subjective opinion, the scenario A on ES seems to be highly unlikely.

 

The above was a long background for the actual question that I wanted clarify -- would I be correct in stating that points 1, 2 and 3 on ES correspond to those same points on YM building the same sequence on 2 min bars?

 

Thank you for any light that you can shed on the subject.

[cnms2 10]

Let me clarify my confusion (or ignorance) by comparing the fractal nature of the market to a fractal nature of a snowflake. Snowflake has a certain pattern whether you look at it or not. If you take just a part of a snowflake and enlarge it, this enlarged part will exhibit the same pattern which the whole snowflake showed. You take just a tiny spot on a snowflake and use a microscope to discern the pattern, the result will be the same - you'll see the same pattern. Now the snowflake has a static nature,whereas the market has a dynamic one. So instead of a microscope you'll need different (faster) timeframes to behold the cycles of the price movement.

The 1, 5, 15 bar chart is like your microscope's set resolution, and cannot be referred as the market's / snowflake's fractal. You can't say "5 min fractal of the market", as you can't say "x10 fractal of the snowflake". You can talk about the price or snowflake fractals you can see through your chart or microscope chosen resolution.

[romanus 10]

Let me clarify my confusion (or ignorance) by comparing the fractal nature of the market to a fractal nature of a snowflake.

The objects in price pane exhibit self-similarity but lack the fractal dimension and as such can not represent fractals in mathematical sense using the definition (1.Self-similarity + 2. Fractional dimension + 3. Formation by iteration). Correct annotations in volume pane (which are abstracted from both price and volume bars), however, meet all necessary and sufficient conditions of being "fractal" in mathematical sense. Correct annotations in volume pane require an ability to interpret the context which involves among other things the ability to differentiate, and some other abilities (which currently elude me, both in a sense of lacking the ability itself as well as in a sense of being unable to define which specific ability is lacking:rofl:).

This is just my own personal theory, which could be wrong.

P.S. Everything in italics was meant as an attempt to be humorous.

[Spydertrader 10]

I still can not see the difference.

 

I (quite often) encourage people finding themselves thwarted by an obstacle to look at the problem in question from a different point of view - other than from the standpoint upon which they currently base their observations.

 

How else can you "magnify" or "reduce" the market?

 

Tape, Traverse, Channel

 

We've learnt a number of various SOC. So I just thought, that points 2 and 3 may represent important contexts for different SOC on a faster timeframe to materialize,hence the question.

 

Signals of change matter only at the completion of the trader specific fractal Order of Events.

 

- Spydertrader

[Spydertrader 10]

would I be correct in stating that points 1, 2 and 3 on ES correspond to those same points on YM building the same sequence on 2 min bars?

 

You have accurately differentiated between Option 'A' and Option 'B' in terms of 'correctness.'

 

- Spydertrader

[Spydertrader 10]

Price waveform has a fractal nature, and exists out there, whether you open your charting program or not.

 

Which is why Price Bars no more make a trend, than standing in one's garage makes one a car. Standing in a garage might allow a person to 'see' a car - just as looking at a chart might allow a trader to 'see' the trends.

 

- Spydertrder

[Spydertrader 10]

I stopped looking at YM quite some time ago.

 

In 1957, The YM didn't exist. In 1957, the ES did not exist. In 1957, Intra-DAY data did not exist. However, one could obtain information about the day's events from a newspaper at the end of a day - while sitting in a diner eating a plate of eggs.

 

If (out of al the various markets around the world) I randomly picked a chart and (while removing the Title, Time and Price levels from the axis) asked you to tell me what market did the chart represent? and what time frame does the chart show?

 

Could you tell me the answers? Could anyone?

 

More importantly, does it matter? Of course it doesn't matter which market or which time frame the chart represents.

 

Any market. Any Timeframe - provided sufficient liquidity exists, right?

 

Now, (after removing the items listed above) what do we have left? Price and Volume.

 

These matter. Everything else becomes a matter of efficiency and effectiveness (making more money per unit time). However, until we can always see that which exists, we must avoid any temptation to (consciously or unwittingly) focus on efficiency and effectiveness.

 

In 1957, someone discovered they had the ability to understand the language of all markets. We all now have way more tools at our disposal than to anyone in 1957. Make sure these tools don't obscure that which can be seen by a patron at a diner eating eggs while reading the daily newspaper.

 

- Spydertrader

[gucci 10]

Got it now. I just unwittingly added one more dimension to the definition of a fractal. Thank you guys for the explanations.

[cnms2 10]

...

(my view of) Volume sequences, reflected in price annotation (for your "B" version).

[ptunic 10]

This is regarding #1254, which we discussed a lateral that is itself a SOC.

 

The lateral that starts on Feb 5 10:45 I believe is an example of something similar. (this one is actually a non- Lateral Drill conforming lateral, but similar in the sense it is a SOC and pt 3 is the forming bar).

 

My chart for that day isn't finished yet but see attached.

 

edit: in my chart that should be decreasing black, not decreasing red (eg point 1 just formed and is starting to head up) of the tape at 10:10 - 10:15. Wasn't trying to show anything tricky, just a typo

Edited February 8, 2010 by ptunic

[rs5 10]

Monday 8 February 2010

[rs5 10]

Afterhours crayola chart......

[innersky 10]

Could it be that, in the attached lateral, that at the first bar the previous sequence is complete, but that the actual signal of change happens no the third bar (the outside bar) inside the lateral?

 

--

innersky