The Price / Volume Relationship

[Monkman 10]

Today's AM with carry over.

[double eagle 10]

I'm curious what best bounds a trend:

method 1- placing point 2 where it creates the most volatility for the trend (not necessarily at the point of volume sequence completion of the point 1 to 2 move) or

 

method 2- always placing it where the volume sequences completed for the point 1 to point 2 move

 

For example, I placed the LTL for the traverse at 10:55 today (method 1). I see Ehorn has it at 13:15 (method 2).

 

The choice of methods could possibly color one's view of whether something like a FTT (of the traverse) or VE (of the traverse LTL) is on the table in the NOW depending on the situation. I suppose either way, the faster trend FTT (FTT of tape post traverse point 3) with volume sequence completion shows us the change in market mode.

 

Thanks everyone for the help.

[Tams 20]

it depends on how you view the relationship... the price/volume relationship,

 

whether you think...

price drives volume,

or

volume drives price.

[Monkman 10]

Volume leads Price. Always. And without exception.

 

Not sure what the right answer is to your question. The quote above should clear up the incorrect information from the previous post. How you know volume leads price? For that answer look at the gaussian illustration. As the volume increase Price will continue. Once the volume decreases Price will change. Look at my chart (8-12-09) at the 15:15 area. We know that if V increase, Price will continue upward not the other way around.

[ehorn 10]

I'm curious what best bounds a trend:

 

Interesting question. For me, an FTT of something becomes a PTn of something else. So logically (for me) this FTT is the place to drop the TL. Geometry does not always allow one to place a TL where a sequence completes, but IMO it seems more important that one does things consistently to be able to provide him/her the view required to see continuation/change.

Edited August 13, 2009 by ehorn

[NYCMB 10]

Hi Spydertrader

 

Would you help a person who is learning and trying, but can not read the Market correctly yet?

 

The Market of today tells me that I had wrong annotation yesterday. The questions are as the following:

 

a) Why is the dotted Pink trendline not ES 5 min Traverse? Doesn't the 13:25 (open of ) bar finish the down sequence?

 

b) Since the Market of today proved I was wrong, I Guess there's something I missed to take consideration.

Are there any formation or price bars which were saying down sequence was not finished when the 13:25 (open of) bar presented with increasing volume?

TIA

[ehorn 10]

Some artifacts pertaining to the Jokari Window...

Jokari.pdf

[Monkman 10]

In one of the earlier post Spyder mentions ten tapes. Not to throw people off but for the benefit of clarification, the ten examples are chart formations. Where tapes are used on top of the formations to show support and resistance. In addition, these formations occur in all fractals not just the tape aka fastest fractal. Spyder please correct me if this is not right.

[ptunic 10]

Aug 12 2009 chart attached.

[romanus 10]

Hi Romanus,

I'm working on drawing guassians and found something on your chart that continues to trip me up---beginnig at 15:50 there are 3 consecutive IRV bars that cross a RTL---yet you draw the guassian as DRV...

The gaussians match trendlines. The IT thread on ET, especially the 2nd half of '08, contains numerous discussions on the subject.

 

...

What is there to support this view other than the perceived point within the current cycle (B2R2B)

The price moving from Point 2 to Point 3 of the 5 min ES level traverse.

[romanus 10]

Wednesday, August 12, 2009.

[Monkman 10]

8-6-09 with previous carry over. I think it has all the formations and tapes.

[Spydertrader 10]

Would you help a person who is learning and trying, but can not read the Market correctly yet?

 

I'm not really sure I understand your question.

 

I agree the 13:30 [close of] ES Bar ends the down sequence. You appear to have that correct. However, I don't see how the market "proved you wrong" today. Perhaps, you've viewed today (08-12-2009) incorrectly, rather than, viewing yesterday (08-11-2009) incorrectly.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

[NYCMB 10]

I'm not really sure I understand your question.

 

I agree the 13:30 [close of] ES Bar ends the down sequence. You appear to have that correct. However, I don't see how the market "proved you wrong" today. Perhaps, you've viewed today (08-12-2009) incorrectly, rather than, viewing yesterday (08-11-2009) incorrectly.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

 

Hi Spydertrader

 

Thank you for your comments. Is the attached chart showing the correct view from 08/11/2009 to 08/12/2009 ? Sorry for not providing the gausssians, because I did the chart in a morning hurry. TIA

[ljyoung 10]

Some days the show appears to be run by a guy named Klaus, while on others it's a drug-crazed hippee or Mr. Magoo. Same show. Different pacing.

 

Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

[Spydertrader 10]

Is the attached chart showing the correct view from 08/11/2009 to 08/12/2009?

 

If you have the correct view on your chart, what must the market create next? If you do not have the correct view on your chart, what do you expect to see from the market?

 

Sorry for not providing the gausssians, because I did the chart in a morning hurry.

 

The Gaussians provide the answers to all of your questions. Annotating a chart without Gaussians is like trying to watch a movie with your eyes closed. Sure you might be able to listen in and follow along for a while, but you'll definitiely lose the plot before you run out of popcorn.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

[Monkman 10]

Are there exercises to train the mind/eye how to spot the correct gaussian formations? As I look for continuation and change, the volume formations are the most difficult to interpret. For example, in a B2R trend, you see volume bars increasing real time. Then as the next bar develops, intra bar, you see it decreasing in volume, and price. At this point I am thinking change. Then the next bar, increases in B, and continues thus faking you out with the previous bar. I see this happen 1-2 bar sequences, which makes it extremely difficult to recognize when the second half of the gaussian formation is beginning to form. Is it just me having this issue or is this holding back several others as well?

 

- Monkman

[Spydertrader 10]

A trader can easily learn to differentiate the various tapes, traverses and channels formed by the market, as well as the sequences of Price and Volume which landmark these specific events, by starting with a known entity - one which exhibits certainty as defined by the market itself. Beginning with 10:10 AM on 7-13-2009, and continuing through until 15:30 PM on 8-5-2009 the market has provided just such an event. In addition, beginning with the very same 15:30 PM Bar on 8-5-2009, move forward until 13:30 PM on 8-11-2009 in order to see the exact same event, but in the opposite direction.

 

This Channel Drill requires the trader to construct their charts in such a fashion that one knows with 100% certainty the end has arrived for both entities described above. Whatever solution works for one part of a chart, must work for all charts in the time frames mentioned.

 

Two possible outcomes exist.

 

1. A trader accurately (and more importantly consistantly) annotates a chart and arrives at the correct outcome.

 

2. A trader uses "what works for them" and does not arrive at the correct outcome.

 

In either case, the market has provided everything required to arrive at the correct endpoint in both scenarios.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

[TIKITRADER 10]

Spyder,

 

Would you be kind enough to post a fully annotated chart in the near future ?

Just one chart would be very generous, any day of your choice.

 

So very appreciated.

[TIKITRADER 10]

starting with a known entity - one which exhibits certainty as defined by the market itself. Beginning with 10:10 AM on 7-13-2009, and continuing through until 15:30 PM on 8-5-2009 the market has provided just such an event. In addition, beginning with the very same 15:30 PM Bar on 8-5-2009, move forward until 13:30 PM on 8-11-2009 in order to see the exact same event, but in the opposite direction.

 

- Spydertrader

 

 

 

I have highlighted the areas you are referring to.

Light orange is the first time frame 7-13-2009and continuing through until 15:30 PM on 8-5-2009.

 

Second time frame is highlighted in pink 15:30 PM Bar on 8-5-2009 until 13:30 PM on 8-11-2009

 

 

In this time frame I do not see what you are referring to at all.

[innersky 10]

A trader can easily learn to differentiate the various tapes, traverses and channels formed by the market, as well as the sequences of Price and Volume which landmark these specific events, by starting with a known entity - one which exhibits certainty as defined by the market itself. Beginning with 10:10 AM on 7-13-2009, and continuing through until 15:30 PM on 8-5-2009 the market has provided just such an event. In addition, beginning with the very same 15:30 PM Bar on 8-5-2009, move forward until 13:30 PM on 8-11-2009 in order to see the exact same event, but in the opposite direction.

 

This Channel Drill requires the trader to construct their charts in such a fashion that one knows with 100% certainty the end has arrived for both entities described above. Whatever solution works for one part of a chart, must work for all charts in the time frames mentioned.

 

Two possible outcomes exist.

 

1. A trader accurately (and more importantly consistantly) annotates a chart and arrives at the correct outcome.

 

2. A trader uses "what works for them" and does not arrive at the correct outcome.

 

In either case, the market has provided everything required to arrive at the correct endpoint in both scenarios.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

 

A quick look shows me that the 15:30 PM Bar on 8-5-2009 -> 13:30 PM on 8-11-2009 period consists of a down channel, an up channel and a down channel, where each channel has 3 traverses. (I still had my annotations...)

 

--

innersky

[double eagle 10]

Here's my effort for the day. I tried out placing point 2 of the traverse at the point of volume sequence completion (12:00 today) as discussed yesterday. It does aid in "seeing" the volume sequences when looking at the price pane.

 

I also made a concerted effort to annotate trendlines in a consistent way (line thickness, color scheme) in order to better see the markets sequences. I hope you don't mind Ehorn, but I borrowed your coloring convention.

 

Also, my placement for point 1 of the down traverse is of note (15:40 bar yesterday). I arrived at it by removing the overnight gap mentally.

If I didn't remove the gap, the 13:05 bar today would have gone above yesterdays 15:40 bar, making a point 3 down traverse geometrically impossible. This would have definitely caused me to know that my MADA was wrong and made me go fix my annotations. With the mental shift of bars, the down traverse remained in play and I continued on from point 3 into the traverse.

 

I'm curious to see other people's annotations today to see how the gap was dealt with.

[NYCMB 10]

A trader can easily learn to differentiate the various tapes, traverses and channels formed by the market, as well as the sequences of Price and Volume which landmark these specific events, by starting with a known entity - one which exhibits certainty as defined by the market itself. Beginning with 10:10 AM on 7-13-2009, and continuing through until 15:30 PM on 8-5-2009 the market has provided just such an event. In addition, beginning with the very same 15:30 PM Bar on 8-5-2009, move forward until 13:30 PM on 8-11-2009 in order to see the exact same event, but in the opposite direction.

 

This Channel Drill requires the trader to construct their charts in such a fashion that one knows with 100% certainty the end has arrived for both entities described above. Whatever solution works for one part of a chart, must work for all charts in the time frames mentioned.

 

Two possible outcomes exist.

 

1. A trader accurately (and more importantly consistantly) annotates a chart and arrives at the correct outcome.

 

2. A trader uses "what works for them" and does not arrive at the correct outcome.

 

In either case, the market has provided everything required to arrive at the correct endpoint in both scenarios.

 

HTH.

 

- Spydertrader

 

Hi Spydertrader,

 

For each day, do we have to slide the close of the last bar of a certain day to meet the open of the first bar of the following day in the time frame you mention? TIA

[zak 10]

My view of today and attempt at PFC:

 

wmcn:

60: still rr tracking LAT; P2 still ahead

15/5: up traverse sequence

[NYCMB 10]

Spyder,

 

Would you be kind enough to post a fully annotated chart in the near future ?

Just one chart would be very generous, any day of your choice.

 

So very appreciated.

 

+1! I would sincerely suggest Spydertrader to post annotated charts on 08/11/2009 and 08/12/2009 to help traders and traders will be all over the world who are working on " learning to learn".

 

08/11/2009 is the day where sentiment changed; thus Down Channel ended and Up Channel began. High level of annotation technique is needed to handle Tapes, Traverses and Channels.

 

08/12/2009 is the day which challenges traders to find the correct bar to place point 2 of a Tape or a Traverse. The difficulty was proved by several traders who posted their annotated charts for 08/12/2009 with different outcome. TIA